Post-game Thread: Knicks @ Celtics, 10/29/2010

[Sam]

For me, this game was simply one of many that will be a proving ground for establishing whatever this team is meant to be. Some good things; some bad things; some learning. Whatever. See me after 20 games.

During the game, I had an hour-long phone conversation with Baby Sky Hook. We discussed just about everything except the mating habits of the tse tse fly. Among other things, we agreed on the fact that the Celtics and Lakers are head-and-shoulders above rest of the league in terms of professionalism. But the two organizations have taken different routes to achieve that level. The professionalism of the Celtics emanates very largely from a folksy, homespun, family tradition. The professionalism of the Lakers has been forged more by the pressures of media and entertainment expectations.

In a season that could well become one big media spectacle, perhaps a hidden benefit of having a product of the Lakers on the team will derive from how much Shaq "gets" dealing with those intense media pressures. His presence could even help deflect some of the negative vibes that will attend the Delonte-Wafer dustup.

This is certainly going to be an absolutely fascinating season. And I'll leave the game analysis to the rest of you—except to say the Glen Davis is my admittedly very early candidate for 6th man, MVP and most improved player.

Sam

[NYCelt]

Sam,

Davis may be making a good case for giving him the money he's going to be looking for shortly.

As for the game and in a larger sense the team, I'm unsure of what we're seeing so far. I don't think we've seen what this team can do, except perhaps the first half of the first game. It's going to take a while to see what we've got here, maybe as many contests as the 20 game mark you mention.

Rondo's assists were certainly something to watch pile up, but so were the number of shots he should have taken and passed on. Our shot selection was often questionable all-around.

I'm sure the West vs. Wafer undercard will get more play than is needed. I see two possibilities here; the most likely is that it's a non-story. There have been championship teams in several sports that can't stand each other to the point of fighting yet they walk away with a ring. Sometimes talent does win out over chemistry. The second possibility is that the early reports of West being the aggressor over a period of time are correct and Delonte's problems are too big for the C's to solve. I hope it's the former because we could use Delonte to round out and further strengthen our backcourt.

The only clear picture I get through pre-season and three games is that our front line is weaker than was thought, and the first three guards are as strong as advertised or stronger.

Oh yeah, and the Knicks; much improved despite a weak performance by a couple of their key players.

Regards

[bobc33]

It looks like Jermaine did not even dress for the game? He has looked completely out of synch but with Perk out we need him. Doc must be really down on him to not dress him, or perhaps he is injured?

[jeb]

didnt see the game fellas...busy busy. Howd we do?

[cowens/oldschool]

This was a sloppy scirmmage game,Rondos assists are deceiving as I wasn't thrilled with the way he played,against better teams,that team effort and sloppiness are not gonna cut it.I know its early,but where is the depth?Right now I see one force off the bench.....we know who that is and thankfully he looks great,right now hes as important as any starter.We have to get all our pieces and get healthy.Nate has to get going and think we could use Delonte?

Oh and great to see KG with 3 double digit rebounding games.

[112288]

Big Baby is becoming a big contributor to the C's. His ability to pop from 15-18 feet will open up the paint for some easy buckets come crunch time in a game. With confidence he has the ability to lift his game to another level all together.

It seem that the team had other things on its mind tonight, perhaps the Wafer/West fight. I hope this is nipped in the bud quickly as something like this can kill a team. Kelly Tripucka on the Knick feed tonight said it was no big deal...that in his playing days most teams had fights in practice every other practice.

Did not like the 18 turnovers again, 7 by Rondo himself, and did not like the the way the Celtics ran their offense sets. Seemed like they were walking in quicksand, but as Sam pointed out lets wait to game 20 before we really find out the nature of this team.

112288

[sinus007]

Hi,
With all due respect we don't need to wait 20 games. We can wait 6 more games: see what Celtics show against high level teams (I don't count the first game since the Heat was in complete disarray).
So far, it's similar to the last season. The difference is that the break-ups started at the beginning instead of the middle. Now, according to the reports, Celtics are down to 1 center. Hopefully, Doc will be forced to use SE, I believe he has a great potential. I still don't understand what VW is doing on the court, even one time, yesterday, when he was given perfect opportunity to show what he's capable of he missed.
One negative trend that started to develop is high minutes for RA and PP. Hopefully, when DW gets back it will change.
There're a few good points, though. KG's rebounds and long range jumpers, RR's assists and he started to make mid-range jumpers, and, of course, BBD is a beast on both ends.
Now to voting booths in Detroit - hope all Celtics will elect Victory.

AK

[beat]

Unfortunately missed game and recording didn't work but from the stats I do like 91 fg attempts and the offensive boards.
Still don't like the turnovers or the minutes for RA and PP.

beat

[Sam]

One reason I mentioned 20 games was that the bench was supposed to be a major asset this season, and I'm not seeing any of that. Either Shaq or Jermaine was going to anchor the bench at the center position; and that hasn't happened at all. Delonte was supposed to be inject some stability (yes, I did use the words "Delonte" and "stability" in the same sentence) to the bench by being able to do a lot of everything required at either guard position; and, of course, that hasn't happened.

What I see of the bench so far is one player (Davis) becoming a stalwart. And he has spend half of his time with the starters (for obvious reasons). In fact, right now, I believe the most productive C/PF tandem on the Celtics (at both ends) is Davis/KG. Kudos to Doc for sensing this well before he even had an opportunity to see them work together in this preseason.

Thankfully, this team has eked out two victories in three games. But they don't have anything approaching a reliably routine rotation or system.

There are certainly good signs. I'm usually very happy when Rondo has twice as many assists as points, which I believe is the natural order of things for a PG on this team. But the number of turnovers that many have noted is a sign that, notwithstanding the very favorable ratio of assists to made field goals, the offense is much more hit-or-miss than it will have to be for this team to maintain its stature in the East, to say nothing of attaining true championship contention status.

In short, the jury is not just out on this team; it's apparently on sabbatical. In fact, 20 games is probably a severe understatement of what it will take for injuries to heal, suspensions to end, productive combinations to be identified, the limited practice time to take effect, and the REAL 2010-11 Boston Celtics to take shape.

It's really much the same story as last season. Base any long-term assessment on what you see now or in the near-future, and you'll be more premature than Peewee Herman in a movie theater.

Sam

[Pumpsie Green]

It looks like Jermaine did not even dress for the game? He has looked completely out of synch but with Perk out we need him. Doc must be really down on him to not dress him, or perhaps he is injured?

Bob, they said on the broadcast that O'Neill had a knee injury of some sort. Not that he didn't deserve to be a healthy scratch after his horrendous performance in Cleveland (unless he tried to play injured there). The flip side of it is that he needs playing time or he will never get in synch-and I don't mean just at garbage time

[Pumpsie Green]

Unfortunately missed game and recording didn't work but from the stats I do like 91 fg attempts and the offensive boards.
Still don't like the turnovers or the minutes for RA and PP.

beat

EXACTLY! If this team rebounds, it will be fine IMO. The turnovers will be there at times, but what happened last season was that despite good defense most of the time, we got killed on the boards more often than not. You cannot win easily that way. I think that rebounds are going to be a key to any success this team has.

[Sam]

Pumpsie,

Nice to see you posting. Just to tack on a comment about rebounding, they do seem to be doing a better job of that this season—at least on the defensive boards. And I continue to believe one rebounding key will be the guys OTHER than the big men. Except for KG (and possibly Jermaine, if he ever gets into a game and into the flow), the Celtics bigs are not leapers. Therefore, they're better at blocking out and keeping the rebounds in play than at snatching the ball above opponents. And keeping the ball in play is a huge advantage IF some of the smaller players are hanging around to take advantage of loose balls. Doc really got on Paul Pierce about rebounding better, and Paul responded last night with 12. Rondo had 10. In the first game, I believe Ray had 7.

The other side of that coin is that, if smaller guys are hanging back to get rebounds, we won't have the right to bitch and moan so much if the Celtics don't push the ball more. Pretty hard to hang back for rebounds AND beat opponents down the floor.

I've been noting an interesting paradox. In the old days, you'd often find PG Cousy throwing home run passes to guys like Sam Jones and Ramsey off the defensive rebounds. On this team, the one player who most consistently gets down the floor quickly is Rondo (which makes his rebound totals all the more amazing). So the home run passes are now going from guys like Shaq, KG and Pierce TO PG Rondo.

It's little nuances like this that make every team different and keep the game fascinating, in my opinion.

Happy diving, Pumpsie. Mrs. Sam says,"Hello."

Sam

[Pumpsie Green]

Thanks Sam....say hello to the Mrs for me. Got a dinner this very evening with a group of six divers plotting our next adventure...maybe to the Philippines.
I think BOTH our big guys AND the others will be rebounding better. First, Shaq does not have to leap very high to snatch rebounds because he occupies so much space in there. And KG seems more sprite afoot as well. But most important is that they are now talking about it and making it a goal, to rebound better. They see what all of us saw last year, that we got killed on the boards night after night. If Jermaine can get into shape and Perk makes it back in one piece I think our rebounding will be very competitive despite our lack of athleticism. I think it was Pat Riley who once said "no boards, no ring"...and I agree with that 100%.

[Sam]

Pumpsie,

I agree. I also feel that, despite the recent Delonte—Wafer fracus, Jermaine is my single greatest worry about this team. We're already seeing that the center-by-committee system that seems to be taking shape requires that all of the participants product their best at this point in their respective careers. They can all improve, but Jermaine seems to have a long way to go.

Sam

[beat]

Sam

Just a tweek on the rebounding thing. I don't think beating the guy down the floor is the key. But really if only one player could do it consistantly (better 2) then someone has to slackoff to pick up someone else man, and if the others are hustling down above a trot mismatches and blown assignments are sure to follow. As you mentioned many times as I've heard Tommy on the broadcasts many times running is a mindset and as a collective whole we just don't have that.

beat

[Sam]

Beat,

I think it's a matter of seeking the right balance (as is true in a lot of basketball). Doc's on guys like Paul to rebound more, which reduces his chances of running lanes (never his strong suit to begin with). Eventually, he and others will become more instinctive about when to take off and when to hit the boards. Its just one of numerous little details of the game that take any team (even one with a largely holdover core) time to assimilate.

And, just as occurred last season, the more disruption of the rotation (including people re-entering it as well as those leaving it), the longer the necessary adjustments take.

Even a good thing like Rondo's assist totals requires some adjustment. KG had no assists last night, so does that mean they'd better get used to more of an outside-in game to the near-exclusion of KG's inside-out passing ability? They're feeling their ways along in many respects. People think this is pretty much the same team with a few tweaks, but that's dramatically far from the fact.

Baby seems to be finding ways to get his shots off without having them blocked as often (3 blocks against in 30 shots taken so far). Is this something they're going to be able to depend on? If so, what are the implications for their playing style, and are the implications different whether he plays with the starters or with the bench? Even positive developments can cause disruption by altering their playing style and strategies. If J. O'Neal should happen to break out with a few good games (I could only hope), more adjustments will be required to take advantage of his presence without compromising other positive factors.

This is recognition and adjustment time, every season, unless you have almost precisely the same team each season. The time of year to expect a lot of ugly games and hope your team comes out on top more often than not while they're trying to get in synch.

Sam

[dboss]

Just getting around to posting about the game.

It was a good win for Boston

I am most concerend with the injuries to JON and Shaq. Older guys heal slow.

SE may get some minutes by default. I also expect to see Glen get more minutes and why not? He is playing very well.

The bench will not be consistent until D West is playing. I really liked the combo of Nate and Delonte.

The Celtics will have some up and down games this year but I still think everything depends on how healthy they are.

dboss

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