Post Game Thread - Celtics Nip The Knicks 118-116 Wed 12/15/2010

[dboss]

First I want to say happy birthday to my youngest son Krsitopher who turns 22 today.

Well my pre game prognostication about not matching the Knicks basket for basket was flipped on it's head.

This was one of those old fashion high scoring games that we do not get to see a lot of.

The Knicks came out with purpose as Amare was white hot from the field. So they want a rivalry. It would of course elevate the Knicks if Boston thought they were rivals. But they are not rivals yet..At least not in the way they were in the early 70's. I think it will take a playoff series or two between these teams before any rivalry can be renewed. The 'What About Us' Knicks are now very competitive though they lack some components to be an elite team. But please do not tell that to their fans.

I am going to make a few general observations about the game and then head to work. Had an ice storm down here in Atlanta and my driveway is slick so once it melts I'll head out.

We have previously talked about the diversity of the Celtics in terms of the style of basketball that they play. They are not a team that wants to be in a high scoring contest but it was impossible to avoid last night.

The big three performed magnificiantly. Another double double for KG 20 and 13, 26 for Ray including 4-5 from the arc and the big time 3 he hit down the stretch and of couse the captain, Paul Pierce who hit 10-18 from the field, grabbed 10 rebounds, made 2 steals, handed out 4 assists and made the play of the game with a step back jumper over Amare with .4 left on the clock. Paul finished with 32 points. It was another truely great and dramatic shot by Paul Pierce.

Poor Rajon is starting to look like the walking wounded with the foot, hammy and now the turned ankle. He did not want to come out of the game, was reprimanded by KG, sulked for a while but had a nice little smirk on his face after the Paul Pierce dagger. Despite being well below 100% Rondo dropped 10 points and handed out 14 assists in 34 minutes of tough as nails basketball.

Semi was very much overmatched by Amare. But when you have to play your 4th string center there will be times when the matchups will not be in your favor.

At 20-4 and 10-3 on the road, the Celtics have weathered every storm but you can kinda feel that it is wearing on them. The Celtics need one or more of their bigs to get back on the court. I am also concerned that Rajon probably could use a few games off to heal.

Next up, the high flying Hawks make their only visit to the gardens on Friday. JJ is still out after elbow surgery but the Hawks have remained competitive. Let's hope that Shaq is ready to lace em up because we will definitely need his presence in the middle to help neutralize their young athletic bigs.

dboss

[sinus007]

Hi,
Dboss, thanks for the summary.
Does anybody know what happened with RR, why KG was all over him? Also, I hope nothing serious happened to his ankle.
I feel bad for SE. He is soft, on the other hand he's willing and sometimes trying to harden but he can't really develop this part of his game due to the fact that he's the only 5 on the team at the moment. As for being overmatched by AS, everyone was burned by him: have to give the guy credit - he was a monster yesterday.
All this talk about renewed rivalry is, IMO, just media created fuss. First they have to organize some kind of defense. Second they can't rely on one consistently hot player and one or two sparks now and then.
Have to give kudos to Nate: not much on the stat line but effort and desire to win were outstanding.
In general, it was a great, tough game, won with heart and teamwork. IMO, the better part of the 4th quarter was a preview of what Celtics can do in playoffs.

AK

[dbrown4]

The Knicks are just playing D'antoni Ball which is an offspring of Nellie Ball or Phoenix Ball of recent times or 60's Celtic ball. Shoot the ball 5 seconds into the clock or lose a body part.

This attitude of thinking they can win with any combination on the floor gets back to the defining pinnacle of what only truly great teams reach. Last night, they weren't playing the Knicks. The Knicks are just another team in the long file of their minds of teams and games they have played over the last 4 years together as well as all the years preceding the '08 Big 3. They don't ask how to beat the Knicks. They're not playing the Knicks. They ask and fulfill two questions: 1) How do we win (positives) this game tonight, given our line-up? and 2) How can we not beat (negatives) ourselves tonight, given our line-up? It does not matter who is on the court. They have seen it all or at least enough. How do we win with what we've got? How can we minimize the potential errors/shortcomings tonight's team may have?

I can only flash back to the Bird era for experience comparisons and only to Bill Russell interviews for the 60's. But I have to say, this team has caught the killer attitude of at least the 80's teams. Sam and others will have to (de)fend for the 60's era teams, but this team right here is scary. Scary good. Scary confident. To me, probably more so than the Bird era teams or at least equal right now for this time of the season. Right now, more so than the '08 team.

To keep this going for the whole season and the playoffs will be the challenge. But whatever Doc and Danny are feeding them, give them all double helpings. Everyone has bought in. Nate last night was the perfect example of this. Rondo down. Nate in. Hits a 3 and a 2 in succession. Put me in coach..I'm ready to play...today. Ray again, was Ray. How many times are we going to see this at the end of games? Wide open. Too many weapons. Paul is the daggar. I think it's like Sam said. The opposition knows the signal for the play. They just don't know which option. I think I saw Gallineri signal the same signal to the Knicks bench/coaching staff that Rondo signaled just seconds before crossing halfcourt, like he'd solved the mystery. "They're running play #42 skido! We've got 'em!" Can't remember which play it was and I'll have to watch it again to remember the sequence, but I think the Celtics scored anyway. He knew the play, just not the option(s) that go along with the play.

What an amazing team so far. I don't think the '08 team had the depth of knowledge this team does. They just played. This team thinks and plays and kills the opposition, whoever wants to step in the arena.

No time to rest, however. ATL coming end tonight. Back-to-back. Anything is possible.

[mrkleen09]

I feel bad for SE. He is soft, on the other hand he's willing and sometimes trying to harden but he can't really develop this part of his game due to the fact that he's the only 5 on the team at the moment.

Semih is playing with a torn rotator cuff, strained thumb and is out weighed by nearly every guy he faces...yet he shows up every night and gives his best effort. There is NOTHING "soft" about the kid.

[NYCelt]

That is one seriously improved Knicks team we played last night. They're going to be a tough out for most teams. If they can do something to improve their defense they're going to be dangerous.

[LACELTFAN]

I too am concerned about the bigs dboss, but I don't think SE is going to get any help from the wounded till next week at the earliest. This is the MO of this team, it was last year, and is again this year. Doc will have to mix and match for the majority of the year, I think. He's proven quite effective at it but we are all pulling for a 100% healthy team. The difference this year is that he has more talented bodies to work with this year. This team running on all cylinders, which we haven't seen yet, will be force to reckoned with. Let's hope we see it sooner rather than later but especially, in the playoffs.

[bobheckler]

What a great game! Holy Cow(ens)! A game of streaks. Everytime the Celts caught up the Knicks would go on a small run and lead by 6-8 points. It felt like the Knicks controlled the game throughout, but we never let them feel too comfortable about it.

We're a team that's built with a big, punishing frontcourt. Due to injuries we're not right now, we're a small team with an injured 240# Erden and 6'7" Davis splitting the duty at 5. The Knicks are a team that's built to be small and fast. They're greyhounds and they're healthy and at the top of their game and in their groove. We beat them by going small too and yet, didn't get into a non-stop running contest with them. That's what is so impressive about this win, to me. It wasn't about our healthy team beating their healthy team, it was about our big team forced-to-go-small beating their healthy small team. Christ, we're deep AND versatile!

1. Amar'e was unconscious last night. Everything he touched turned to gold. The MSG crowd was yelling "MVP! MVP!". If he keeps playing like this, the vote will be a runaway.

2. The Knicks took turns going nuts. In the first half it was Amar'e (not that he did that bad in the 2nd half). Then it was Gallinari, who did nothing in the first half. Going back to last season, Pierce just seems to have trouble with this kid. Understandable considering he's listed at 6'10", can shoot from anywhere and can put the ball on the floor too. Felton had a helluva game too. This game meant a lot to them, and they played like it.

3. This game meant a lot to the Celtics too. They never stopped fighting, never let the Knicks get into their running game consistently. Their defensive intensity ratcheted up significantly in the critical 4th quarter while, like every other Mike D'Antoni team, the Knicks have forgotten everything they've ever known about the word. Ganas, our boys had ganas by the bucketload last night. Beating a team with an 8-game winning streak and the hottest player in the league on the road shows pride.

4. I hate Paul Pierce isos. I know he won the game with one, but I still hate them. That same shot, over Amar'e, will not be a winning play 9 times out of 10.

5. Before Nate jumps on somebody, he might want to be sure he's gonna land on him. It would be sad irony if he sprained his wrist landing on the floor after trying to climb on Pierce's back twice and missing both times. It moves towards extremely aggravating considering the new injury to Rondo.

6. To give Nate his due, though, he brought energy and offense to the game. Another Celtic for whom this was a big game. He was a dangerous man out there. He also played very sticky defense. D'Antoni probably didn't even recognize Nate because of that. Ok, he probably recognized him when he did that stupid jockey imitation. Same immature dumbass Nate, he thought. Nate, on the other hand, was thinking "I'm sooo glad to be out of here and playing in green!".

7. We shot 100% from the line and we needed every single one. Obviously, Rondo never went near the ft line. We shot 52%, but against a no-defense team. They shot 53%, mostly on the strength of Amar'e, BUT they only had 81 fga. We had 86 fga (another shocker, to me). That is way down from their 95/game they've been averaging. Our defense did exactly what it needed to do, it needed to slow the pace significantly for us to stand a chance against those jetfueled greyhounds. If Amar'e had shot a more normal fg%, this game wouldn't have been close. Then again, if it hadn't been for Felton's "I forgot to call glass" HORSE 3ptr at the end of the half and Pierce's incredibly stupid foul on Felton's 3 at the end of the 3rd, this game wouldn't have been close either. The Knicks need a high volume of fga to win, we don't.

8. Amazingly, playing with our 4th string NBA-rookie center, we still outrebounded the Knicks. I suppose I shouldn't be that amazed, since they don't have a center either but what is amazing is that we out offensively-rebounded that athletic greyhound team too. We really, really took care of things last night on the boards. Ganas.

9. Also amazingly, according to ESPN, the Celtics had 11 fast break points vs 9 for the greyhounds. We also outscored them in the paint. How did they hang in there? 3s.

10. Pierce and Ray were playing a complete offensive game last night. They shot a combined 20-37 on an assortment of outside shooting and driving to the hoop. When Ray Allen dunks the ball, you know his head and heart are in the game. The shooting machine wanted to make an emotional statement.

11. Last year we traded Eddie House, JR Giddens and Bill Walker to NY for Nate. Eddie left at the end of the year to Miami, JR is freezing his ass off in Poland and Bill Walker, the player a lot of people were bemoaning the loss of (more of the same "we just traded away our future! Waaahh"), never got off the bench last night. In the final analysis, another GREAT trade by Danny.

12. Four of the Knicks players played over 40 minutes last night and the 5th starter played 36. D'Antoni really shortened his bench last night. No Walker, no Randolph, limited Turiaf. Not a big issue, they're all young and they don't play again until Friday, but it shows how D'Antoni viewed this game. He saw it as a playoff game and he subbed like he would in the playoffs, which is to say "sparingly". Still couldn't get it done. Run-and-gun small-ball might be fun to watch, but it is not championship-winning ball. I think Doc's got it just right. Run a high efficiency offense inside and run opportunistically, but not all the time.

13. There's some woofing today about there should have been more than .4 seconds left on the clock after the Pierce dagger. They are claiming .6-.8 should have been there. I'm not sure .6 would have been enough but .8 would have. BAD coaching by the Knicks. Going to the refs and getting as much as they could back on the clock should have been the first thing they should have done when they called the timeout. When time is that short, time is critical, almost more important that the play you run since with .4 seconds you really only have one option and that's an inbounds lob/dunk (and everybody in MSG knew who that would have been going to). An extra .25-.5 seconds would have been huge since, as it turned out, it cost the Knicks the game. I mean, did D'Antoni really need the whole 60 seconds in the huddle to say "give the ball to Amar'e"?

Can you imagine when we get our two centers back and healthy? OMG. The scary thing now is the slow accumulation of nagging injuries to Rondo.

With the loss to Milwaukee by Dallas, we now have the longest current win streak in the NBA. It'll end soon enough, all streaks do. The question at that point will be "how long does it take to start the next one". Let's hope the streak doesn't end tonight on the second of a back-to-backer against the good-but-not-great Hawks.

bob

.

[mrkleen09]

4. I hate Paul Pierce isos. I know he won the game with one, but I still hate them. That same shot, over Amar'e, will not be a winning play 9 times out of 10.

Hate to give Bob a hard time again, but I just cant let blatantly inaccurate statements like this pass...sorry.

Paul Pierce is one of the all time clutch players in NBA history. Through the 2009 regular season, Paul Pierce had made 29 game winning shots or free throws, and assisted on 10 more. That doesn't even take into account last season - or this one.

Go to Youtube and type in Paul Pierce Game Winning Shot and tell me how many videos you get? You may want to revise that 9 times out of 10 figure there Bob?

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/322871-the-evolution-of-the-truth-in-clutch-performances

[dbrown4]

I replayed the last shot by Paul. When should the clock be stopped? When all of the ball is just through top part of the hoop? All the way out of the net? When it hits the floor? What's the ruling in the waning seconds of the game? I thought the Celtics got a slight advantage there. It could have easily been reset to 0.6 seconds, IMHBAO. But if it had been, AS would not have seen that same shot.

BTW, per ESPN, J Crawford out tonight as well with sore back.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5926294


I hope we don't have an OKC flashback with JJ out as well.

[Outside]

Bob's "9 out of 10" statement may be an exaggeration, but he's far from the only person here who doesn't like seeing a Pierce iso in crunch time. Is there some resource out there that can say how effective he is in that situation? How often in the last minute of a game he scores vs. a miss, turnover, or pass out that leads to a poor shot? His "clutch" stats for last season on 82games.com aren't particularly remarkable (http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM), but that's for the last five minutes of close games, not last-shot situations.

I don't know what the definitive stats are, but my sense is that he's not as effective as he used to be and that his iso plays have a poor result more often than not. But I know for my part, my dislike for his iso plays is based on a philosophical dislike for that type of play to begin with. The play they ran to get KG a layup at the end of the Philly game, now that was a thing of beauty.

[bobheckler]

4. I hate Paul Pierce isos. I know he won the game with one, but I still hate them. That same shot, over Amar'e, will not be a winning play 9 times out of 10.

Hate to give Bob a hard time again, but I just cant let blatantly inaccurate statements like this pass...sorry.

Paul Pierce is one of the all time clutch players in NBA history. Through the 2009 regular season, Paul Pierce had made 29 game winning shots or free throws, and assisted on 10 more. That doesn't even take into account last season - or this one.

Go to Youtube and type in Paul Pierce Game Winning Shot and tell me how many videos you get? You may want to revise that 9 times out of 10 figure there Bob?

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/322871-the-evolution-of-the-truth-in-clutch-performances

mrkleen,

I base that, in part, on my observations but mostly on 82games.com.

http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT6.HTM

You'll find Pierce down in the lower half, with just a 37.5% clutch fg% last season.

Does Pierce hit game winners? Sure, that's why there are youtubes of it. So does Ron Artest, but I wouldn't consider him a "clutch shooter" by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe the reason why we need a game winning shot at all is because Pierce went 2-7 in the previous 4+ minutes, ending up 3-8 "in the clutch" by hitting that last one? This may just be a personal thing with me, but iso ball just doesn't appeal to me. Running a play with 10-12 seconds left should produce a better opportunity than one man against a team especially when the defense knows he's going to be the one doing it. If "team ball" is what got you there, why abandon it when you need it most?

bob

.

[bobheckler]

Bob's "9 out of 10" statement may be an exaggeration, but he's far from the only person here who doesn't like seeing a Pierce iso in crunch time. Is there some resource out there that can say how effective he is in that situation? How often in the last minute of a game he scores vs. a miss, turnover, or pass out that leads to a poor shot? His "clutch" stats for last season on 82games.com aren't particularly remarkable (http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM), but that's for the last five minutes of close games, not last-shot situations.

I don't know what the definitive stats are, but my sense is that he's not as effective as he used to be and that his iso plays have a poor result more often than not. But I know for my part, my dislike for his iso plays is based on a philosophical dislike for that type of play to begin with. The play they ran to get KG a layup at the end of the Philly game, now that was a thing of beauty.

outside,

I was writing my post when you were posting yours, ergo the duplication. I couldn't have said it better than you.

bob

.

[sinus007]

Hi,
Here's the official definition of a goal:
A legal field goal or free throw attempt shall be scored when a live ball from the playing area enters the basket from above and remains in or passes through the net.
Unfortunately I couldn't find an explicit definition of when the clock has to be stopped. Based on the above rule, it should be when the ball clears the net.
In regards to the PP's shot last night, I'd say the officials put as much time as they could possibly dared.

AK

[mrkleen09]

mrkleen,

I base that, in part, on my observations but mostly on 82games.com.

http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT6.HTM

You'll find Pierce down in the lower half, with just a 37.5% clutch fg% last season.

The top 3 clutch players on the “clutch FG% list” are Dampier, Turiaf, and Landry. Yeah, THOSE are the guys I want to have the ball with the game on the line….You can craft any cockamamie stat you want – it doesn’t mean anything in the real world.

Does Pierce hit game winners? Sure, that's why there are youtubes of it. So does Ron Artest, but I wouldn't consider him a "clutch shooter" by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe the reason why we need a game winning shot at all is because Pierce went 2-7 in the previous 4+ minutes, ending up 3-8 "in the clutch" by hitting that last one? This may just be a personal thing with me, but iso ball just doesn't appeal to me. Running a play with 10-12 seconds left should produce a better opportunity than one man against a team especially when the defense knows he's going to be the one doing it. If "team ball" is what got you there, why abandon it when you need it most?

Isolation, especially down the stretch in close games has been part of basketball for years. The fact that you don’t like it doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. Heck every one of those players from your 82 games list above is scoring the bulk of those clutch points IN ISOLATION. If you really think those stats mean anything at all – they you have to know they mostly come from isolation plays. You cant have it both ways.

[mrkleen09]

Bob's "9 out of 10" statement may be an exaggeration, but he's far from the only person here who doesn't like seeing a Pierce iso in crunch time. Is there some resource out there that can say how effective he is in that situation? How often in the last minute of a game he scores vs. a miss, turnover, or pass out that leads to a poor shot? His "clutch" stats for last season on 82games.com aren't particularly remarkable (http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM), but that's for the last five minutes of close games, not last-shot situations.

I don't know what the definitive stats are, but my sense is that he's not as effective as he used to be and that his iso plays have a poor result more often than not. But I know for my part, my dislike for his iso plays is based on a philosophical dislike for that type of play to begin with. The play they ran to get KG a layup at the end of the Philly game, now that was a thing of beauty.

Again you guys like to use stats – but only as far as they serve you. Here are the top point scorers on your so called “Clutch” list.
James
Bryant
Nowitzki
Anthony
Nash
Hamilton
Carter
Johnson
Paul
Roy
Billups
Williams
Evans
Durant

You might as well re-name that list “The Best Isolation Players In The NBA” – clearly none of those guys are scoring at the end of games running 5 man offensive plays. But again, lets just pull out random stats.

[Sam]

To those who have commented on Pierce's iso play, it's driven me crazy since he joined the team. Especially at the end of quarters (or, in this case, the game).

However, many factors come into play in a situation like that one. I can't begin to mention all of them because there are several I probably don't know. But here are four.

1. One consideration would be what the Celtics have been doing recently in last-second shots and what shows up on the scouting reports. Whether at the end of quarters or at the end of games, the Celts have been deviating, more and more, from the Pierce iso. I've mentioned it numerous times in the game-on thread; and the "poster play" was the Rondo-KG lob mentioned by Outside. So, in effect, a Pierce iso could now be thought of as a change-of-pace from the Celtics' recent modus operandi.

2. Another consideration is the defensive matchup. That play anticipated a switch by either Stoudamire or Felton. One is not a good defensive player, and Paul has a major height advantage over the other. It was obviously felt (by Doc and/or Paul) that Pierce could take either one. Either on the stop-and-pop, with the momentum of Amare presenting Pierce with a wide open shot, or by going to the hoop against Felton and either getting fouled or hitting the shot.

3. The score was tied. The worst that could happen (barring a horrendous giveaway) was overtime. So the situation wasn't desperate, and they could go with a relatively high percentage option rather than something sneaky. Bob, the percentage was for ALL late shots taken by Pierce (including loads of failed drives into traffic)—not for that specific play. I think the percentage of success with Pierce hitting an open jumper was fairly good. And he pulled it off beautifully, pretending to drive hard and then stopping on a dime before Amare could stop his own momentum.

4. The potential of the player to succeed. In terms of heat checks, Pierce was the closest the Celtics had to Amare last night. Paul was really into the game. He had been rested for some time around the end of the third quarter, so he probably didn't have inordinately tired legs. And he represented the best option for being able to can EITHER an inside shot OR an outside shot, depending on who made the switch. If the ball goes to Ray or KG, the likelihood is pretty much restricted to a perimeter shot whereas, going to Pierce, there were two realistic options (really three, because there would have been time to pass it to Ray for a three-ball).

In plotting a play in that situation, past records really don't count as much as the current situation as suggested above. I'm still not a fan of the Pierce iso, but I believe Doc made a good call.

Sam

[Cooz]

Like to throw out an observation that ,to me,was glaring.That crowd was a non-factor--totally shocked me.I mean at the end of the 1st,they sat--politely clapping.
I kept waiting and waiting for the energy to takeover---I'm perplexed.

[mrkleen09]

Like to throw out an observation that ,to me,was glaring.That crowd was a non-factor--totally shocked me.I mean at the end of the 1st,they sat--politely clapping.
I kept waiting and waiting for the energy to takeover---I'm perplexed.

Are you sure you actually watched the right game? MSG was ROCKING last night....especially down the stretch.

[Outside]

MrKleen,

Just to be clear, I may dislike Pierce's iso plays and consider them a less successful option, but it is an option and one they should use periodically. It's one tool in the toolbox, and as long as they don't overuse it, it's all good. His play last night was a well-executed clutch play, no doubt about it.

[bobheckler]

Hi,
Here's the official definition of a goal:
A legal field goal or free throw attempt shall be scored when a live ball from the playing area enters the basket from above and remains in or passes through the net.
Unfortunately I couldn't find an explicit definition of when the clock has to be stopped. Based on the above rule, it should be when the ball clears the net.
In regards to the PP's shot last night, I'd say the officials put as much time as they could possibly dared.

AK

sinus,

Here's a link to a pic of Pierce's going through the net with .6 seconds left on the clock.
http://nba-facts-and-rumors.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/26470007

According to another site, a NY media producer claims Stoudemire's shot took .68 seconds. Therefore, even if they put another .2 seconds on the clock it still would have been late.

Poor end-of-game management by Mike D'Antoni, very poor. An extra .2 seconds would have at least made the Celts have to defend against more than just a lob and that might have produced a shot from a quicker shooter or more of an opportunity to lob since we would not have been as packed in.

bob

.

[bobheckler]

Like to throw out an observation that ,to me,was glaring.That crowd was a non-factor--totally shocked me.I mean at the end of the 1st,they sat--politely clapping.
I kept waiting and waiting for the energy to takeover---I'm perplexed.

cooz,

The Knick crowd finally started getting into it late in the game and took over the energy, but throughout the game I heard a lot of cheering after Celtic baskets with the Knicks fans being mostly polite.

bob

,

[mrkleen09]

MrKleen,

Just to be clear, I may dislike Pierce's iso plays and consider them a less successful option, but it is an option and one they should use periodically. It's one tool in the toolbox, and as long as they don't overuse it, it's all good. His play last night was a well-executed clutch play, no doubt about it.

If you consider Iso a less successful option, how can you explain the list above that shows the best clutch players are also the best isolation players?

I dont LIKE isolation either - but it has been a big part of the NBA for decades now. That ship has long since sailed.

[sinus007]

Bob,
Thanks. I retract my prev. statement about officials.

As they say , luck, sooner or later, runs out. Knicks got lucky on a wild shot at the end of 1st half. And then a 23% carrier 3pt shooter makes another wild, sort of, shot? No, it's too much....

AK

[gyso]

One thing that no one mentioned was the tech on KG for delay of game. Tommy was dumbfounded right after it happened. The C's had been given a DOG warning. Not too much later, KG took Celtic a score out of the net and passed it right to the ref. That ref immediately called the tech.

That call was a load of crap. Every game, players rebound a made basket, and rather than pass it to an opposing player to start play, they pass it to a ref. It seems that the ref's make this kind of stuff up to make the games closer, but this one really was over the top.

I wish Jeb had seen this one, because he would have come up with a classic saying that would have, on the one hand condemned the play and on the other, gotten us all laughing!!

Get well, Jeb.

[Outside]

LOL. Ah, well. MrKleen, I was trying to present a moderated position and move toward more common ground, but I guess that didn't work. It's not my intent to get into a confrontation about the whole deal. There's lots of bright people here who know a lot about basketball, and you're one of them. Not everyone has the same opinion, and that's okay.

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