Leon Powe waived by Cavs, open to Celtics return

Pumpsie Green wrote:Leon Powe is not the answer to our problems.

mrkleen09 wrote:

Pumpsie Green wrote:Leon Powe is not the answer to our problems.

We have the best record in the East - I didnt know we had problems.

Pumpsie Green wrote:

mrkleen09 wrote:

Pumpsie Green wrote:Leon Powe is not the answer to our problems.

We have the best record in the East - I didnt know we had problems.

Yes you do. You are smarter than that.

112288 wrote:WATCH OUT FOR RICH HAMILTON!

112288

mrkleen09 wrote:

Pumpsie Green wrote:

mrkleen09 wrote:

Pumpsie Green wrote:Leon Powe is not the answer to our problems.

We have the best record in the East - I didnt know we had problems.

Yes you do. You are smarter than that.

I dont see that the Celtics have any problems....sorry. I am NOT one of the constant complainers or naysayers out here.

I would have liked to pick up a stud like Jeff Green, and keep Perk....but I would like to hit the lottery and be handsome too. Cant have everything.

If the Celtics made no other moves, just by getting Shaq and JON back - they are favorites to win the championship. If they add a few more pieces, one being a banger to play the 4/ 5 - they are even closer to a championship.

I see possibilities, not problems.

Pumpsie Green wrote:So you honestly do not see the hole the team now has at center? Remember: Davis started there last night, and he is primarily a power forward. There is no guarantee that Shaq will make it back and stay healthy either: he is a 300lb 38 year old. And even if Jermaine makes it back, he has not been effective all year long. You HAVE TO PROTECT THE PAINT. Thats where the easy hoops get scored. Perkins was our best and most reliable player in that regard.
I see possibilities too. I see LeBron and Wade and other smaller guys reaching the rim against us with more regularity than when Perk was out there. And that is a PROBLEM unless Ainge fixes it.

mrkleen09 wrote:

Pumpsie Green wrote:

mrkleen09 wrote:

Pumpsie Green wrote:Leon Powe is not the answer to our problems.

We have the best record in the East - I didnt know we had problems.

Yes you do. You are smarter than that.

I dont see that the Celtics have any problems....sorry. I am NOT one of the constant complainers or naysayers out here.

I would have liked to pick up a stud like Jeff Green, and keep Perk....but I would like to hit the lottery and be handsome too. Cant have everything.

If the Celtics made no other moves, just by getting Shaq and JON back - they are favorites to win the championship. If they add a few more pieces, one being a banger to play the 4/ 5 - they are even closer to a championship.

I see possibilities, not problems.

mrkleen09 wrote:

Pumpsie Green wrote:So you honestly do not see the hole the team now has at center? Remember: Davis started there last night, and he is primarily a power forward. There is no guarantee that Shaq will make it back and stay healthy either: he is a 300lb 38 year old. And even if Jermaine makes it back, he has not been effective all year long. You HAVE TO PROTECT THE PAINT. Thats where the easy hoops get scored. Perkins was our best and most reliable player in that regard.
I see possibilities too. I see LeBron and Wade and other smaller guys reaching the rim against us with more regularity than when Perk was out there. And that is a PROBLEM unless Ainge fixes it.

If I thought that DA was done dealing and didnt have Shaq, JON coming back...then yes, I would be worried.

This is called premature worrying IMO.

sam wrote:Man oh man, I keep reading the same old stuff about what we lost with Perk. That is NOT, repeat NOT, repeat NOT, how the implications of a trade should be evaluated because it assumes all other things remain the same.

The pure and simple fact is that all other things do NOT, repeat NOT, repeat NOT remain the same. Aside from the other three roster spots (which is a pretty big "aside), the team will make adjustments to compensate for the loss of Perk.

• They may change the defensive scheme, which is not mandated to remain inflexible. (Just ask Lebron James about that.) Don't ask me what the changes might be. But I'd venture to say that (just as one example of how things might actually improve) Kristic will become more adept than Perk at feinting a double and recovering, which is a key ingredient of Celtics help defense.

Whatever the scheme is, if Shaq is not in the game, who protects the paint as things stand right now? Not JO; he has been a nonproductive foul machine this year, and Davis is good, but short.

It depends on whom the paint needs to be protected against at any given moment. I know Davis is short (relatively speaking—I expect I'd have to look up to him). I'm not going to predict who will play center for how many moments against whom and in any given situation. But, in terms of generalities, I do know that, just as we have to cover opposing centers, opposing centers have to cover us. Few have found the secret of doing that with Davis. I think I'll wait on withholding judgment on Kristic until I've seen him play within the womb of this veteran Celtics team for at least 60 seconds. The vets have a way of kind of sweeping new guys along with them. It even happened with guys like Leon, Tony, Scal, and Glen for that matter.) If you will predict for me precisely what adjustments in the defensive system will be made to accommodate the new players, then I'll give you feedback on how I think it might work. My general preference is to react to reality rather than to worry about vague possibilities. I'm talking a lot about Glen Davis not because I believe he'll play the bulk of the minutes at center but because I've actually seen him at center and he's more healthy than Shaq. I actually believe Shaq could have played more games than he has if it had been the playoffs, but I believe Doc's exercising his notoriously conservative policy regarding veteran injuries. So see me in April about Shaq and Kristic, and I'll throw in a bonus answer about how they've been using Davis and anyone else they might acquire.

• The Celtics defense is not built around individuals. It's built around help and is geared to play to strengths and away from weaknesses. It will continue to function that way, adjusting to integrate the newcomers so they're comfortable and effective by playoff time. (Remember how everyone feared Ray's ineptitude on defense when he first came to town?)

Ray has had years to learn the system. Even if Ainge manages to sign a high quality defensive center, there are only about 25 games left for that person to learn the system. Thats a tough assignment.

Actually, Ray learned the system pretty quickly. That's one reason why they won the championship. He's a veteran. So is Kristic. Veterans tend to learn quickly. And it's likely anyone else they might acquire would also be a veteran. Moreover, there's the "sweeping along" factor that I mentioned (see above). Again, see me in April and I'll comment on what I see, not on what either you or I conjecture.

• They may give up more points than before (although they led the league in least points given WITHOUT the presence of Perk), but they made this trade for offensive purposes and will probably score more points with a much smoother offensive flow. I have been a Perk supporter for many years; but always with trepidation because he could be a severe deterrent to smooth halfcourt offense with his bobbles, moving picks, needing to collect himself (and risk being blocked) before going up for a shot, and disrupting the team rhythm with his hesitancy in swinging the ball (it drove me nuts that he so often had to take an obligatory dribble while buying time trying to figure out what to do). I wonder what percentage of nice inside passes by Rondo, KG and others to Perk resulted in turnovers or missed free throws. I actually have to give those guys credit for continuing to make those passes to Perk.

As things now stand (Shaq and JO injured, Davis at center) they will almost certainly give up more points and those who remain will be working harder at it too. If defense wins rings, this does not bode well for the team, again, unless DA can find a high quality center to plug the middle and rebound like Perkins did.

The playoffs are not starting until April. I really don't care a lot about how things stand today, and I believe Doc is being ultra conservative with Shaq anyway (see above). It's popular to say that defense wins rings, but actually the right balance of defense and offense wins rings. There have been excellent Celtics defensive teams that never would have won anything had they not had the offense to score as many as 120 points a game. Danny recognized the frequent scoring droughts (his word) this team has incurred many times during the past two years. Very often, they'll be playing their hearts out on defense but can't score. Surely you've seen that in action. Were you watching the last six (scoreless) minutes last night? Danny traded as he did to effect more of a balance between offensive prowess and defensive prowess. My guess (and this is only a guess) is that, in the Celtics' experience, it's been easier to tweak tweak the defense to get it in synch than to tweak the offense to get it in synch—largely because the offense has too low a ceiling with only three dependable scorers out there. The "formula" is being tweaked. See me in April and I'll tell you how it's working out.

• Perk was not a panacea on defense. I heard on the radio today that Howard scored 24 points in the first half, much of it off Perk, in their most recent game. I had no convenient way to check the veracity of that statement, and slack needs to be cut for Perk who was working his way back from injury. But Brook Lopez also burned Perk very, very badly in the Celtics' most recent game against the Nets, and Davis came in and shut Lopez down. I say again, Perk was no panacea on defense although he obviously played many wonderful defensive games and we won a championship with him as our primary center.

No, Perkins wasn't a panacea at all. But he is certainly better than the "5" defensively than what we have left. And I am not making any assumptions about Shaq returning or if he does, for how long. I think given the way the season has gone, that kind of assumption would be a mistake.

Actually, you have no idea how the defense with Perk in it compared with what the defense without Perk in it will be. It's inappropriate to evaluate the results of the trade by comparing the specific attributes of the departed personnel with the specific attributes of the acquired personnel. It's called TEAM defense for a very good reason. Adjustments can be made in the system to take advantage of the strengths and minimize the weaknesses of an entire five-man combination in collaboration with one another. One thing I'm dumbfounded at is all the tooth-gnashing before we've even seen this retooled team play one second—to say nothing of what they'll be like in April (which, by the way, is when you should see me for more feedback on what has actually transpired rather than what might or might not transpire).

• Each 2.5 minutes Shaq has been on the floor with the four starters other than Perk, the Celtics have averaged a roughly one-point point gain over the opposition. So, strictly on a mathematical basis, if the first unit including Shaq plays 25 minutes together, they're likely to gain an average of 10 points over the opponent. That's a net gain, taking into account both offense and defense.

• Each 3 minutes Glen Davis has been on the floor with the four starters other than Perk, the Celtics have averaged a roughly one-point gain over the opposition. So, if Glen plays 15 minutes with the first unit, they're likely to gain an average of five points on the opponent. That's also a net gain, taking into account both offense and defense.

IMO Davis is more effective when he doesn't have to play as a starter. Its entirely likely that as his minutes go up his production will go down.

Where does it say Davis should start? I've never one implied that I think he should start. I don't think he should start. I think a seven-footer should start, get the tip, blast away and tire the opposing big guy, and hand the leftovers to Davis so he can run them and pummel them. I bet that, by April, that will be a pretty good formula. You might want to contact me then and we'll see what has really occurred. And, by the way, would you like to place a side bet on the guy who's most likely to FINISH the majority of games at center? I'm betting it will be the same guy who has been doing it so effectively regardless of whether Shaq or Perk has been available. Let's see, what's his name? Oh yeah, Glen Davis.

• Kristic was been a member of the most productive +/ unit put on the floor by the Thunder this season.

(I have no comparable +/- figures with Perk on the floor because he hasn't been on the floor enough to be mentioned by 82.games.com. However, a gain is a gain is a gain. I say again, a gain is a gain is a gain.)

I think that Krystic will be a plus as a backup center. He is much more of an offensive threat than Perkins, obviously. His problem is that he does not play in the box well either offensively or defensively, and he is not a good rebounder. Thats a big negative, given what we need.

When Shaq is available, he'll probably start. When he's unavailable, it's likely Kristic will start as he's been doing in OC. It really doesn't matter as much as who finishes. (See above.) As for rebounding, who knows? A lot depends on whom he's playing with, how well his teammates block out, how well he blocks out, how good a job the five Celtics on the floor gang rebound. Rebounding, like virtually everything else, is a team function with different roles assigned to different players. Neither you nor I has any idea to what role in the rebounding game Kristic might gravitate. And, by the way, Kristic apparently has good enough hands so that he almost never turns the ball over. He's also got a pretty good midrange jumper. So he may play more of a high post, bringing KG closer to the basket, thus making KG more of an offensive rebounding threat than when Perk was under the basket even though Perk usually tried abortively to rebound offensively with one hand. We'll know by April how the rebounding dynamics are working out. Hey, maybe we could discuss it at that time.

• And please note that I haven't even mentioned the multiple benefits Jeff Green and/or the three remaining foster spots may bring to the team. I haven't even mentioned the fact that we have one decent player and one potential cornerstone for the future in return for Perk whereas, if Perk had not been traded, we would have wound up with no Perk and nothing in return come July.

Jeff Green is going to be very good for us from what I read about him. He will elevate our second unit significantly. No argueing that he is a very good pickup. But again, he will not defend the paint for us.
I remember the Lakers decimating us last year in game 7 in the paint because of their size. Its no coincidence that they are two time champs and have three healthy seven footers (of course, having Kobe helps too). I DO NOT want to see them (or anyone else) living in the paint against us because Davis is at the 5 for us. That would be a fatal mistake for our team; it has to be addressed.

Once again (sigh), I'm not suggesting that Davis should be at the 5 the majority of the time. It will be a very fluid situation. Believe me, if you've ever played or watched basketball intensely, you know how much bulk and agility can compensate for height. Until now, the Celtics have not had anyone who can really match up with the third so-called 7-footer of the Lakers (he's really 6' 10") whose name is Odom. He's actually that Laker I most fear, because the way he plays very often is pivotal in the way the Lakers play. Finally we now have one—Green (one inch shorter) with a good body. I'm very happy to have some combination of Kristic, Shaq, Davis, and KG mess around with Bynum (who was a semi-regular mismatch for Perk) and Gasol. If it's Davis and KG against Bynum and Gasol down the stretch, I'm not going to slit my throat down the stretch (certainly not when compared with the tandem of Perk and KG). I think that, by that time, Bynum could be tired and perhaps a little gimpy, and Glen Davis could very well push him out to midcourt trying to recall if he put his jock on frontwards that day. Conditions change. Fouls can change everything. for any given situation, Doc will put the best possible five on the floor as he has in the past. Down the stretch, I'd rather see see Davis and KG against Bynum and Pau than Perk and KG against Bynum and Pau. Davis is just great at taking advantage of somewhat fatigued opponents down the stretch. I'm interested to see whether that's true against the Lakers not in April but in June. Maybe we might talk about that in June.

I'm certainly not trying to denigrate Perk...simply issuing a plea for people to incorporate a sense of non-emotional reality into their thoughts about the trade. Please don't assume that the team won't make necessary adjustments (at which Doc is a master, by the way). Watch for further developments. Emotionally, I'm sure we're all devastated to see the departure of a great guy, perhaps vying with Ray as the most consistently hard trier on the team, and a substantial contributor. And exercise some patience, without going ballistic the first time Kristic commits a turnover, as this veteran core comes together with some fresh blood.

Patience is fine, but this MUST be properly addressed IMO. We cannot depend on either O'Neal, nor is Davis a good center. It has to be done much better than bringing in a Mikki Moore. I want another ring, and I don't think we are going to win one AS THINGS NOW STAND.

I think what you mean is that Davis is not a classic center. When at the center position, he's an unconventional center, using bulk rather than height and using a lower center of gravity to push larger opponents out of position. The important thing is that it works. Did you even look at the stats I posted above. When he's at center with other starters, the Celtics outscore the opponents far more often than not. Period. You can't deny it. As I said, he's at his most effective with the tall guys have been lugging their butts around for most of the game and are beginning to tire. That's a situational thing that you might want to take into consideration in your thinking. You're a baseball fan, and baseball's more of an individualistic sport. In evaluating a basketball trade, one must take into account the vastly more interactive nature of basketball and the likely impact of the individual on the team (and vice versa) as well as all the systemic adjustments and tweaks that are available to compensate for changes in the team dynamic due to changes in the team profile. When we talk in April and June, it will be interesting to reflect on these and other nuances. There will be a test. LOL.

Take care and be well,

Go Celtics!

Sam