God Bless Perk. Amen. Time to Move on and Focus on the Playoffs.

cowens/oldschool wrote:You noted Perk doesn't rebound much better than Krstic, is it any coincidence that with Perk missing so much of season at beginning of year and now gone were the worst rebounding team in the league and we have virtually no offensive rebounding at all right now?

In 2009-10, with Kendrick Perkins, the Celtics were:

- 29th in the league in total rebounding
- Last in offensive rebounding

In 2010-11, while missing Kendrick Perkins for most of the season, the Celtics are:

- 29th in the league in total rebounding
- Last in offensive rebounding

112288 wrote:Mrkleen, when I see remarks that taught others I'll call anyone out any day of the week. Your remarks were catty and bating.

Not quit sure what you mean by lumps.....this board was supposed to work in a non confrontational manor respecting each others point of view in the spirit of fun and sportsmanship. Like two old buddies sharing a beer at the local bar and debating one's favorite team over the other......nothing is ever resolved but the friendship lasts forever.................and you are my friend Mrkleen and I hope we can continue to share our common love of the Celtics and share our disagreements as well!

112288

112288

We are friends.....back in February, I went courtside at the garden and tried to bribe my way to Mike and Tommy to pass off a message that Sam and I composed for Chloe and her recovery. I have never met you, yet I care for you and your daughter - just like we all do out here.

I have enjoyed your posting of informative articles about the team nearly every day all season long. And I respect your opinion and your right to call it like you see it. But lately, you have lost all of your objectivity and are coming across in post after post with a glass half empty, we are done type of attitude that is not becoming of a positive, intelligent poster like yourself.

No matter my distaste for your current posts, you are a friend and I wish you and your family the best.

Paul

I've rooted for them through the great years, watched them rebuild a little at a time, and rooted for them no matter who was playing for them. When you are a born Celtic fan, you live and die by everything Green. I have seen some of the worst teams imaginable, I even paid for a season ticket during the Hank Finkel years!


Whatever happens this year, I will always be a diehard Celtic fan, never giving in to the cynics who want to bury them. You are right, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, that is why I never have too much to say to
any negativity written here or anywhere else. These past four years have
given me so much joy. It has brought me back to a time when I did nothing but eat, drink and sleep Celtics! I will relish this year, and look forward to what will probably be the last year of the "big 3". Pray for no strike, as I don't want to be deprived of one minute of Kevin Garnett in his last year.
He has said that it will be it, no more contracts and a "fade to black" for him.
As reluctant as I was to make that big trade, I have enjoyed every minute of this team.

So, for those of you who want to hang Danny, as I have said before he will land on his feet running and rebuild again. Enjoy this time, and GO CELTICS!!

Swish,

I don't remember discussing the Celtics of the 60s in this thread. In particular, I don't recall saying anything about what "carried the day" for the Celtics of the 60s.

HOWEVER, since you seem to have such a proprietary interest in the 1960s that you feel most comfortable in discussing that era, let me make the following points.

• I have seen the term "volume basketball" used a number of times in various media reports and posts lately. Prior to employing it in my own Personal History of the Russell Years, I had no knowledge of the term and, in fact, felt I had invented it. Whatever the case may be, I use the term "volume basketball, not at all to describe "just firing away without a solid defense" (as you put it).

• I use the term "volume basketball" to suggest an uptempo offense that continually pushes the ball—not always in fast break mode but (1) getting the ball into the forecourt early in the shot clock and (2) more often than not, running a play to shoot reasonably early in the shot clock, thus (3) catching the defense before it's set and (4) allowing the Celtics to run additional options if the first one fails.

• During the eight consecutive championships that (for me at least) represent the pinnacle of success in the Russell era, here are some stats:

√ The Celtics averaged 117.3 points per game. (I call that the result of volume basketball.)

√ The Celtics averaged a shooting percentage of only .413 in recording those 117.3 points per game. (Sure sounds like volume basketball had to be the reason for that disparity.)

√ The Celtics averaged 112 shots per game. (I call that volume basketball.)

√ The Celtics' opponents averaged 109.7 points per game. (So, although the Celtics' defense was the best in the league on a relative basis, you may be overstating it more than a tad when you say that the Celtics' success was "all about" defense.)

I can also attest that, while defense was obviously extremely important to those teams and the Celtics exhibited by far the most potent defense in an uptempo era, the Celtics also considered their volume offensive game very important. I discussed with Sam Jones, on numerous occasions, the philosophy of shooting early in the clock versus taking the time to set up higher-percentage shots. Those tight rims that you think had no impact were one reason that they had to depend on maximizing the number of shot opportunities rather than depending primarily on shooting accuracy.

Of course, it's fair to say that the offense and defense were closely intertwined. The defense made it possible for them to increase the number of possessions and run the fast break frequently in their volume offense. And the volume offense tended to be debilitating on opponents' defenders, to the point where it often impacted the crispness of their offensive patterns.

Sam

There are so many factors, some of which are unknown to the fans, that determine the fate of a team that to single out any one of the stat line categories to make a point may lead to some incorrect conclusions. The issue of Celtic Rebounding, or more specifically, their lack of rebounding seems to be a case in point. In any event I wonder what significance you place on the below numbers as they relate to the rebounding issue
For the 1st 27 games of the year the Celtics went 23-4.Thats a .852 winning percent. Thats about as good as it gets. They ran up this great record while Rebounding at a 39.8 percent clip. For the current year a 39.8 rebounding percentage would rank you about 27th. It seems that other areas of excellence overshadowed any shortcomings in rebounding at the beginning of the year. Perhaps the total picture warrants a closer look to see if there are other areas that have become a major problem.
swish

all

I got a 15 year old kid that just had a chance to witness HIS (OUR) team, it's really all he wanted for his birthday and Christmas! I just can't imagine him reading some of this stuff!

So some of you continue with the doom and gloom hell yes we might loose but like Rosie says It won't really matter to me cause I'll be as much of a see fan the following day, perhaps a lot to a little disapointed but the sun will come up tomorrow!

beat

A few observations.

I'll start with something everyone can agree on -- Celtic fans here are certainly a passionate bunch.

I understand that Perk brought heart, toughness, and intangibles to the Celtics, but a team cannot win a championship unless most players, if not all, demonstrate those qualities. Whether the Celtics as a team have those qualities is not dependent on one individual. They displayed it in the 2008-09 playoffs when KG was out, and they can display it in these playoffs with Perk gone. Whether they do is up to those players who walk out on the court.

I don't understand the insistence that Perk's departure is the reason why the Celtics haven't played well when there is ample evidence to the contrary, including a) that they played very well prior to his return; and b) most of their current problems have nothing to do his departure but instead with how these players are playing. Imagine for a moment that if Perk were still here that they could still be playing poorly, much like their 27-27 finish last season.

I don't understand the certainty that the Celtics have no chance to win a title this year now that Perk's gone and/or they've played poorly recently. I looked on one Las Vegas sports book site, and they have the Celtics at 5-2 for the title, tied with Miami and behind only LA, so somebody out there thinks Boston still has a decent shot. Why is that? My opinion is that it's because the Celtics have experience, talent, coaching, and intangibles and that those things count for a lot when evaluating who can win a title.

A poster named Sam, who I'd say is generally well-liked and respected here, felt the need to wish Perk the best but ask those belaboring the trade to please move on. This Sam fellow seems pretty even-keel to me, and this type of post is unusual for him, so maybe it's worth considering what he's saying.

I was looking through some threads from last season's playoffs, and I found this in the Perk Out for Game 7 thread:

mrkleen09 wrote:Big opportunity for Baby and Sheed to prove their value and come out and play hard, focused basketball.

The road just got a bit tougher....but adversity is what forges champions.

I couldn't agree more with both parts. It is time for others to step up. This is not supposed to be easy. Having something handed to you may avoid stress, but undergoing that stress makes you stronger and makes the achievement far more valuable.

Lastly, I want to repeat something I said a while ago on another thread -- you are so fortunate to be fans of a team that is good enough to compete for a title. So much has to fall into place to win it all, but there are so few teams that actually have a chance. Boston is one of those teams. Be glad, and enjoy the playoffs, both good and bad.

Outside

Mrkleen,

Your last post is what makes this site so special and you so special as well! Thank you for your kind thoughts towards my daughter Chloe and your efforts to get to Tommy. We are still on pins and needles as to what attacked her system (conflicting view points by doctors) so sometimes it may affect my outlook. Sorry if it may have hurt you in any way....I will be up in the summer and we should grab a beer and root for the Sox!!!!!!!!!!

112288

WHat a great thread.

I can see and understand everyones points and think you all made them real well. It's my belief that our chemistry was dealt a very hard blow from losing not just Perk but Nate and the turk and Luke. Before the trade we had the best record in the east and the best chemistry in basketball.

But what Outside says in terms of being lucky to have a team with a CHANCE to win it really resonates with me just having lived through all those years with guys like Dino Radja and Al Jefferson and even the tease of Twoine and PP. I never gave up and I never quit following the tem but I had to pick a second team to root for deep in the playoffs (for me the pacers with Larry or the Spurs) because the Celtics were NEVER there. So I intend to leave the judging of Danny and his trade til after the season and to just enjoy this special chance to watch my favorite team hopefully go deep into the playoffs and I think they can do just that. I really think the Heats butts will pucker up in the semi's and in the ecf the Bulls are the def of unproven. I think we have a great chance With all the losing everyone is writing us off all over again. Suckers!

Jeb

Outside,

Even-keeled, huh? Hey, compared with you, I'm just holding onto the sides of the boat!

Thanks for voicing your opinion. As usual, your thoughts are extremely valuable. And your words brought to my attention the fact that some people almost seem to feel so entitled that they come off almost as being personally insulted by any problems in Celtic-land.

It's often difficult to be both a passionate board member and a moderator/administrator. The two roles so frequently come into conflict. And the problem is exacerbated when friends are on opposite sides of the fence.

Frankly, I have become rather burned out from all the conflict and (to be frank) all the tedium. I find it difficult to understand how people can allow their passion to overcome their sense of hope so dramatically. I hope it doesn't carry over into their non-Celtics lives.

Thanks again,

Sam

112288 wrote:Mrkleen,

Your last post is what makes this site so special and you so special as well! Thank you for your kind thoughts towards my daughter Chloe and your efforts to get to Tommy. We are still on pins and needles as to what attacked her system (conflicting view points by doctors) so sometimes it may affect my outlook. Sorry if it may have hurt you in any way....I will be up in the summer and we should grab a beer and root for the Sox!!!!!!!!!!

112288

You have never hurt me my friend. What hurts me is to see such good and loyal Celtics fans like you and MD - playing the doom and gloom / or blame game. It is counterproductive, especially since nothing is even close to being decided.

A friend of mine who lives in Los Angeles currently (and has for 10 years) was talking to me recently about the differences between LA and Boston – and he said it in one word – loyalty. He said, in his decade on the west coast, he has only met a handful of people who understand that word and that is the big difference between “us” and “them”.

This is beyond Celtics fans and gets to the core of what New Englanders (and likeminded people from across the world) – we are loyal to our core. We love our wives, we love our kids, we love our mothers, we love our friends, the same way we love our teams – unconditionally. You don’t kick your wife out when the going gets tough – and you don’t turn your back on your team when they need your support.

This is the core of what it means to be a Celtics fan imo. This is the family atmosphere that Red and Russ and Tommy and Larry and Paul and KG have brought here….and why when they retired (or do so in the future) – they will go into the HOF wearing Celtics green.

I know you have been through a lot – and you have every right to express yourself in any way you see fit. But in the end, I know you bleed green just like the rest of us.

Mrkleen,

That is why I am considering moving to Boston...love the town, love the people....love the spirit of New Englanders!

112288

sam wrote:Cow,

I guess you skipped over what was one of the most important points in my post:

"....remember that Krstic wasn't obtained to replace Perk."

As I thought I took pains to mention in my post, Danny had reason to believe that Shaq and possibly Jermaine would be back, and they—not Krstic—were supposed to provide intimidation (Shaq) and defense (Jermaine) that might not equal those of Perk but would be close enough to take a risk that would relieve the team of Perk's several important liabilities and get Krstic and Green in the bargain.

Anything I said that might have had the appearance of comparing Perk and Krstic was in the nature of an "Oh, by the way" and was aimed at those who persist in comparing Perk and Krstic.

Please let me know where I said the Celtics didn't miss Perk's rebounding all year long. Just be kind enough to point out that sentence to me. As for whether it is a coincidence that the Celtics have been a poor rebounding team without Perk for most of this season, it's no more of a coincidence than the fact that they were next to last in rebounding with Perk last season (beating out the last-place Warriors by 15 rebounds for the season).

You mention that "we have no offensive rebounding at all right now." Perhaps not, although Krstic is providing the Celtics with 3.0 OR per 36 minutes. I would never dream of comparing the two, but Perk's figure was 2.6. And, as far as Danny knew when he made the trade, Shaq and Jermaine would be adding their combined 4.1 as the season wore on.

I thought I was pretty fair to Perk when I said, "We'll all miss Perk and superior defense, good rebounding, picks, free throwing, great hands, and even-demeanored leadership on the court." The first half of that sentence was in earnest, and the second half was tongue-in-cheek. I stand firm in thinking that was a fair profile of Perk's abilities. It even erred in the direction of his positives, because I kindly omitted some of the negative stuff like the moving picks.

But my very obvious reason for starting this thread was to suggest that people grow up, face reality, and decide whether they'd rather root for the Celtics or continue to cry over milk that may or many not have been spilt. I'm responding to your post out of courtesy, but I'm really not interested in becoming an ongoing party to the interminable Perk Saga. My focus is definitely on the imminent future.

Enjoy the playoffs.

Sam

look Sam I haven't been wailing on this trade and I'm fully supporting team, but you seem to have played it both ways and you did compare them and started this thread, in your post you gave Perk some slights or tongue-in-cheek, well I don't want to go back and forth, part of the reason I waited so long to respond.

You say Krstic wasn't brought here to replace Perk, well they play the same position, I don't think hes gonna be a point or wing so they did bring him here to play center at some point. I believe Shaq and JON were both injured at the time of the trade, so I don't know why you don't believe he was brought here to replace Perk, maybe you meant he was brought here to play center, but not like Perk, since their games are so different. The defensive stats are misleading, we've also played a string of weak teams as Steve pointed out on a thread a few weeks ago. I wonder what our defensive ppg avg is against playoff teams since the Perk trade? My eyes tell me our defense is alot worse with Krstic on the floor for obvious reasons and his offense isn't so superior to Perks just because he hits a 15 ft jumper once in a while,he doesn't set strong wide picks like Perk who got bad calls setting picks on reputation half the time on those calls, but when he did set them at least he set them so that it enabled the teams offense. Krstic is no better at finishing in close than Perk, actually I've seen him get so many shots blocked and weak pump fakes he could be worse. On offense its a wash, he can't set a good hard pick and the few jumpers he hits once in a while don't make up for that, its not like were relying on those jumpers to carry the offense and we know hes not a good defender at all, his whole career hes been soft.

On rebounding I never said you said anything about it, I just wanted to bring it up. In 09-10 the defensive MVP was playing on a bad leg, missed a slew of games, was not himself and we know what Sheed brought or didn't bring. Plus we shot a very high FG% and we stress transition defense, so our rebounding stats may not shine. Its also obvious that KG doesn't rebound like his heyday when he routinely led the league. Add the health of Shaq and JON and its more of a REASON for not trading Perk, 8.1 boards in 26 min is a pretty good contribution, plus he can enable others to rebound better.

For all his grit and all his blue collar work ethic that I love, as I'm sure Thunder fans are enjoying, the way he went about his business always and how hard he worked on his rehab to get back and he did help us this year, love rewatching the last Heat victory, might be the last of glimpse of our great D with Perk......I just didn't like anyone taking cheap shots at our former Beast.

cow.

beat wrote:Cow

Posey had been around the block so to speak. Green is still well GREEN. With all the vets he may feel a need to take a back seat or differ to them too much. Anyway he needs to cut it loose and let it fly.

beat

agreed, we got him to supply that youthful athletic ingredient, so go hard, take it to em.

From Redsarmy.com, notes on Doc's interview on WEEI. Note the comments about the players INCLUDING Rondo.

April 14, 2011
Doc on WEEI: "No one said no" to Perk trade

I was THIS close to deleting my notes from Doc's weekly WEEI appearance because there was nothing really interesting being said.

Then he was asked about whether the Perkins trade was the right move (here we go). And to his credit, Doc didn't give a canned answer. When asked if it was the right move, he said that we'd have to wait and see if it was the right move. Meaning... if the Celtics win the championship, then it was the right move. If not, then it might not have been.

When asked, again, about how it all went down (in an effort to see if this is still affecting the guys) Doc said he talked to all the key players about it and no one said no. Pressed on it and asked specifically if Rajon Rondo was on board, Doc repeated "no one said no." Obviously the question insinuates Rondo has been pissed off about the trade and that's the cause of his poor play. I'm sure Doc's answer is a thinly veiled way of saying it's not.

Yeah... the topic keeps coming up. And people keep asking and Doc, to his credit (or maybe not) keeps answering. I hope that this puts and end to the talk...but I know it won't.

Not much else of note from the show other than he thinks Delonte West will play on Sunday. We don't know about Shaq yet, but its possible. And when the topic of Kobe's slur came up... the guys jokingly asked what if David Stern had a full-time lip reader on KG? Doc said "We'd be in trouble."


bob

.

I heard the broadcast live today on WEEI. Those not in Boston can get live feed via going to WEEI web site and clicking in WEEI-Boston choice.

Don't buy in that players were asked. What you ask the Big 3 or 4 hey we have a trade for Perk and then everyone says don't do it and Danny does not do the trade......and it gets back to Perk........guess what ...you have one BIG PISSED OFF PLAYER!

The deal was done and probably Pierce as captain, and KG as his defensive partner were informed that it was coming down as a courtesy...but they are not management......they really have no say.

Just speculation but could also be that Danny cut the legs off of Rondo by getting rid one of the other young guns who were going against the older players a few years ago.....remember Rondo called that players meeting that Doc said it would not work and it did not and caused a divide.


112288

112288 wrote:Just speculation but could also be that Danny cut the legs off of Rondo by getting rid one of the other young guns who were going against the older players a few years ago.....remember Rondo called that players meeting that Doc said it would not work and it did not and caused a divide.

112288

I have no idea if this is part of the issue with Rajon, but he is no longer a kid - he is now a grown man making VERY VERY good money to play a game. He needs to man up, and take responsibility for his own game - and play hard every night. In a year or two - he can either be the leader and the face of the most successful organization in professional sports - or he can keep being an inconsistent player, and find himself playing for the Nets or the Bucks or the Kings.

112288 wrote:I heard the broadcast live today on WEEI. Those not in Boston can get live feed via going to WEEI web site and clicking in WEEI-Boston choice.

Don't buy in that players were asked. What you ask the Big 3 or 4 hey we have a trade for Perk and then everyone says don't do it and Danny does not do the trade......and it gets back to Perk........guess what ...you have one BIG PISSED OFF PLAYER!

The deal was done and probably Pierce as captain, and KG as his defensive partner were informed that it was coming down as a courtesy...but they are not management......they really have no say.

Just speculation but could also be that Danny cut the legs off of Rondo by getting rid one of the other young guns who were going against the older players a few years ago.....remember Rondo called that players meeting that Doc said it would not work and it did not and caused a divide.


112288

112288,

I'm sorry, but I just do not buy that.

bob

.

Agreed Mrkleen!

Listen, Krstic really is not the center that the Celtics were counting on and is a free agent next year. What player and at what price does Danny think he can sign a very good center that can perform according to the Celtic style of play? I cannot see them spending less then $6-7M if they want someone good. Mark Gasol?

112288

Bob, just threw that out to get a reaction and to see if it was at all plausible.

112288

112288 wrote:Bob, just threw that out to get a reaction and to see if it was at all plausible.

112288

112288,

I hope my reaction satisfied that.

bob

.

Ya Bob!

112288