2011 Playoffs POST GAME MIAMI GAME 4

Beat

Sorry to hear about your loss. If you look at the big picture basketball, the Celtics and all the other crazy devices in life called "Sports" are meaningless.

I hope you heal from your loss........prayers 112288

BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT, YOU WON'T AFFECT MY VIEW, OR I THINK, THE VIEW OF MANY, MANY OF THE DIE HARD CELTIC FANS WHO LIVE AND BREATHE GREEN.

I SAW IT ONCE IN MY LIFE TIME, MAYBE I'LL SEE IT AGAIN. JUST REMEMBER, YOU MAY NEVER HAVE THE LIKES OF A TEAM THIS AGAIN FOR YEARS AND YEARS.
HOW MANY OF YOU CAN SIT BACK AND REMEMBER THE ANGUISH DURNG 2007 WHEN THIS TEAM WAS PUT TOGETHER. AND THEN THE JOY! I STILL LOVE
TO WATCH THE BEGINNING OF THE GAME WHEN THEY PLAY THAT SONG:
"I CAN FEEL IT IN THE AIR TONIGHT" AND WATCH KG WITH HIS PREGAME
RITUAL. IT STILL SENDS A THRILL DOWN MY SPINE.

SO LET'S NOT DWELL ON THE WOULDA, SHOULDA, COULDA. LET'S ENJOY
WEDNESDAY NIGHT AND VICTORY.

BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT, YOU WON'T AFFECT MY VIEW, OR I THINK, THE VIEW OF MANY, MANY OF THE DIE HARD CELTIC FANS WHO LIVE AND BREATHE GREEN.

I SAW IT ONCE IN MY LIFE TIME, MAYBE I'LL SEE IT AGAIN. JUST REMEMBER, YOU MAY NEVER HAVE THE LIKES OF A TEAM THIS AGAIN FOR YEARS AND YEARS.
HOW MANY OF YOU CAN SIT BACK AND REMEMBER THE ANGUISH DURNG 2007 WHEN THIS TEAM WAS PUT TOGETHER. AND THEN THE JOY! I STILL LOVE
TO WATCH THE BEGINNING OF THE GAME WHEN THEY PLAY THAT SONG:
"I CAN FEEL IT IN THE AIR TONIGHT" AND WATCH KG WITH HIS PREGAME
RITUAL. IT STILL SENDS A THRILL DOWN MY SPINE.

SO LET'S NOT DWELL ON THE WOULDA, SHOULDA, COULDA. LET'S ENJOY
WEDNESDAY NIGHT AND VICTORY.

jeb wrote:
SHit i was hoping it was all a bad dream. Guess not. All in all I thought the guys played plenty well to win the game but I have worried about scoring forever and it seems to rear it's ugly head at the very worse time.

I agree the Bosh tip in was the end and I totally saw it coming after the switch.

Maybe we can get the next one in Miami and make em think some. Feels like a changing of the guard if thats the case I love to see Atlanta Memphis just to shit in stern's snack pack!

jeb,

Shit in Stern's snack pack? Too freaking funny.

bob

P.S. Are those the Ramones?

.

RosalieTCeltics

That was pure poetry ............. GOOD POST!!!!!!

112288

Let the playoffs begin. Now that a team has lost on their home court the playoffs can begin in earnest. We have the Heat exactly where we want them. The fact that they won in overtime last night does not alter the fact that they tend to choke at the end of games. This series changes dramatically with a Celtics win in Miami. The C's, and their fanaticos need to unit with strong determination that the C's will win game 5. Let go of all fear and doubt. Unite in positive game face thru Wednesday night. Let the world see Celtics Nation as ONE contra the big3ofmiami. The time is now to stand up for our team and let them know we support them all the way.

Outside & Celtic Fan

Thanks for the reference site.

My argument is simple. You are asking a 34 year KG who played a lot of minutes, had very little vertical leaping ability left in his legs, to not only guard the paint on defense but to control the glass as well. Not happening as we all saw take place.

Playing JON gives you 5 things up front:
1) Size in the paint so as to prevent Miami about thinking about driving the paint and settling for jump shots;
2) Rebounding...we got killed on both ends of the court late in the game;
3) Spacing and a big to set picks to spring PP or RA for jump shots;
4) JON can use his size to score down low or at least free-up KG.
5) A second big in the front court to allow PP or whom ever to guard LJ closer without the fear of him cutting to the basket and having no cover.

I would have liked to see JON for a few minutes and see what would have worked out. It was a gamble to go that way by Doc and he lost......other times that we may not know were gambles it paid off and Doc now looks like a hero. Hey that's sports.

Being Pissed....ya....real pissed....at the time which if you see when it was posted was about 1 minute after the buzzer. But in general I like to throw thoughts out and let a discussion begin..........................

112288

112288,

I don't publish misleading statistics.

You mentioned a framework of the entire season, not just the last six minutes of last night's game, in your challenge to peruse the record. You didn't specify the record of Celtics' small ball vs. only the Heat because, if you had, you would have been citing far too tiny a season-long sample of minutes for the stats (or even an emotional impression) to mean anything.

So I followed your suggestion to the letter. I located the only two examples that might qualify as five-man "small ball" combinations used to any measurable extent by the Celtics this season. I have no idea against which teams Doc has played small ball this season, and neither have you. The data are to be found in www.82games.com. Click on the Celtics, then on "Five-man Combinations."

I think you need to review some of your assumptions before enumerating the roles of various guys in small ball:

• Delonte did not play SF last night; he played SG and did a very creditable job in guarding Wade—even during Wade's prayer of a dagger three in overtime.

• When Paul Pierce and Jeff Green play together, Green is the de facto PF. He has played that position more than SF with the Celtics, and it was his primary position with the Thunder.

• Paul Pierce and Glen Davis are about the same height. Yes, Glen weighs a lot more, but I've been reading for weeks on this board about the fact that a lot of that weight is a detriment. Moreover, Paul Pierce weighs 10 pounds more than one of the best PFs of all-time—a fellow named Kevin Garnett. So what? Comparisons like those are just as spurious as claiming JO would have made a big rebounding difference in the final six minutes when, over 28 minutes, he averaged one rebound every seven minutes.

What matters more than comparing players like toy shoulders is how well a given unit plays. They scored one more point than the Heat in the last six minutes of the game and, but for Rondo's missing an easy layup and Ray's missing a pick on last play of regulation, probably would have beaten the Heat.

The Celtics were at a severe disadvantage with Rondo's situation, and Ray was simply fodder for Wade at that juncture of the game. West was the perfect answer to both those problems—a veritable "two-fer" for Doc. In the last few minutes of a game, you want players who will attack at both ends, not players who will (despite trying their absolute best) will lumber. The five guys to whom Doc entrusted the last few minutes of regulation represented the best potential for attack basketball and class under pressure.

Doc did precisely the right thing. It's not a matter of agreeing to disagree. He did absolutely the right thing. Period.

Sam

Sam,

Again it goes to who the Celtics were playing when deciding to go small. At one point in the "Small Game" they had KG(5), PP(4), DW(3), RA(2) and RR(1)
and JG sliding into #4 position which he did very little.

Again I say.....You are asking a 34 year KG who played a lot of minutes, had very little vertical leaping ability left in his legs, to not only guard the paint on defense but to control the glass as well. Not happening as we all saw take place.Even RM announcing said KG had nothing left in his legs, that is why he was missing his jump shots.

But I just wanted to point out what playing JON gives you up front:

1) Size in the paint so as to prevent Miami about thinking about driving the paint and settling for jump shots;
2) Rebounding...we got killed on both ends of the court late in the game;
3) Spacing and a big to set picks to spring PP or RA for jump shots;
4) JON can use his size to score down low or at least free-up KG.
5) A second big in the front court to allow PP or whom ever to guard LJ closer without the fear of him cutting to the basket and having no cover.

Bottom line is ...you cannot reverse what has happened...we're in the hole 3 games to 1 and a long summer awaits all of Celtic fans....it's really sad. I just hope I am wrong but everyone on ESPN & WEEI are saying the same thing!

As they say in the NY Lotto commercial.....Ya Never Know!!!!!!

Thanks again for the info sight.......pretty cool ...hope you and the Mrs' are doing fine...did you get back from Paris yet? How did it go!

112288

When in need of defense at the end of a critical playoff game, it makes sense to keep an all NBA defensive team player on the floor. That's why Doc stuck with KG.

makes sense to me! funny that people forget the game before and how dominant he was. Who is to say there wasn't one or two great plays left in him last night. He certainly rebounded well on the defensive end at the end of the game.

112288,

1. "Size in the paint" SOUNDS wonderful, but Jermaine was not going to dissuade Wade and James from driving the paint. They have so much agility and strength, they'd turn him right around if they wanted to. What dissuaded Wade and James from driving the paint was NUMBERS, in the form of the four-man "wall" the announcers kept referring to. It was NUMBERS, not size.

2. I already answered the rebounding thing. Jermaine was not a prolific rebounder in this game. Four is not a lot of rebounds in 28 minutes. Certainly not enough to offset the combined offensive/defensive/clutch potential offered by the five men Doc put on the floor.

3. Spacing is accomplished more by perimeter players like West than post players like Jermaine. As for picks to spring Paul and Ray for jumpers, they were getting jumpers—even open jumpers–and weren't hitting them. What they needed was more guys taking it to the hoop. If Jermaine were a more consistent pick-and-roll thread, it might have been helpful; but his role on this team is not offensive. You don't try to transform a player with the chips down in a playoff game that could potentially make or break the entire season.

4. JON is not a major offensive threat compared to the five Doc had in the game, and Cleveland was clogging the lane as it was.

5. See my point about the defensive wall, which was far more of a deterrent to Lebron James than another tall guy who, not long removed from a serious injury, had already played 28 minutes. When the Celtics went with a more conventional two-big unit earlier in the game, they (including Jermaine) were letting Lebron and Wade get too deep before mounting any semi-serious defense—too little too late. The wall was much more effective.

The fact is that action becomes helter skelter in the last minutes of a game like this one. What might seem like conventional wisdom becomes secondary to scratching, diving, switching, improvising, and somehow squeezing out an extraordinary effort in the clutch. That's not Jermaine's game, which is better suited to the less frenetic portions of the game.

It's the same reason Doc frequently went with Glen Davis rather than Shaq at center in the waning minutes of games early in the season—despite the fact the team's +/- stat tended to be highest when Shaq was in games. Down the stretch, basketball strategy is not conventional; it becomes situational.

Given (1) the human resources at his disposal, (2) the strong, agile assets of the matchups they were facing down the stretch, (4) the fact that those matchups were best combatted with numbers rather than size, and (5) the diminished capacity of the Celtics to eke out as much offense as possible against a scrambling, intensified Heat defense, Doc absolutely made the right move.

Those stats are pretty informative as long as they're not used to evaluate the performances of individuals. And they definitely show that small ball can work for the Celtics—certainly not all or even most of the time, but as a viable option toward the end of last night's game.

Sam

Celtics were actually shooting 58.1% at the half (18 for 31) and wound up a poor .429 (30 for 70) for the game. That means in the second half and overtime Boston shot a woeful 12 for 39 which is 30.8%.

Boy have we seen that trend a lot the last few years.

And a total of 3 offensive rebounds for a game that goes overtime is almost impossible to believe.

112288 wrote:My argument is simple. You are asking a 34 year KG who played a lot of minutes, had very little vertical leaping ability left in his legs, to not only guard the paint on defense but to control the glass as well. Not happening as we all saw take place.

Playing JON gives you 4 things up front:
1) Size in the paint so as to prevent Miami about thinking about driving the paint and settling for jump shots;
2) Rebounding...we got killed on both ends of the court late in the game;
3) Spacing and a big to set picks to spring PP or RA for jump shots;
4) JON can use his size to score down low or at least free-up KG.

If you checked the past record of Doc going small...it has never worked!

Hey we all love our team and I am not a good loser when it comes to the Celtics...........Especially when I believe we could have won the game but instead lost because of a poor coaching decision! Does anyone realize that JON was at the scores table ready to come in with 6 minutes to go and Doc pulled him back to the bench!

THE CASE FOR BEING A SORE LOSER:
''PEOPLE WHO ACCEPT LOSING (EASY) ARE LOSERS" - RED AUERBACH !

112288

I too was wishing JON could have played more, Baby less

Sam

I disagree with your first statement, when we have that small lineup, we get killed on boards and Lebron and Wade are way more effective attacking the rim. JON and KG together is our best defensive unit, thats what I'm seeing out there.

cow

Cow,

I agree that JON and KG together is our best defensive "big" pairing during the normal course of many games. But the "normal course" of this game had come and gone. Both JON and KG had played big minutes (for them), and they had not done a good job of keeping James and Wade away from the rim for much of this game.

What the Celtics needed at that juncture were two things: (1) a team defensive scheme that would force Lebron and Wade to pass off rather than driving deep into the paint for a score or a foul, as they'd been doing much of the game and (2) energy on both offense and defense.

Jermaine is many things, but he's not the kind of energy guy who can move quickly enough to thwart James and Wade when they ratchet it up down the stretch. He plays defense near the basket. By the time James and Wade got that low—without being met further out—they were in complete control, and they'd either go around or over Jermaine or initiate contact with enough agility and elusiveness so he'd be the one to reach in. As it was, the Heat scored 48 points in the paint (not counting their foul shots), and Jermaine was on the floor for 28 minutes.

And don't underestimate the fact that the Celtics offense degenerated in the clutch. Jermaine O'Neal is not a fix for that. They needed more energy, not less. He wasn't going to dive on the floor or create a shot, and they needed players on the floor who were skilled and experienced in doing just those things—especially with Rondo being challenged in his playmaking duties. As it was, the Celtics were pretty much playing 4 on 5 on offense, with Rondo severely compromised. With JOL on the floor, it would have been closer to 3 on 5. Delonte West was a far more sensible addition to the Three Amigos and Rondo than Jermaine O'Neal would have been.

By the way, I'd welcome responses by anyone to my points such as (1) the relative effectiveness of the defensive wall that was clearly illustrated in the tv coverage; (2) the need for clutch energy and offensive output rather than for just another tall guy who had already played 28 minutes while still recovering from a serious injury; and (3) the wisdom of playing Delonte rather than Jermaine because Delonte represented another offensive threat and could help mitigate Rondo's playmaking struggles; and (4) the fact that a guy with limited mobility who was producing only one rebound every seven minutes is not someone on whom to depend for rebounding in the freneticism of stretch. I'm not singling anyone out when I say I sometimes have the feeling that it's easier to ignore many of my points than to offer reasonable counterpoints.

Sam

If we were playing Orlando, with D12 prowling the paint and Ryan Anderson and Bass crashing the boards, then size would matter since they have a dominating inside game. The Heat do not. What the Heat have are penetrators. You are in big kimchi if DWade or LBJ are able to turn the corner off a pick. Having some beef there to meet them only gets that beef a couple of quick fouls and a place on the bench (hello Shaq) because then it's too late. IMO, an effective perimeter defense and transition defense are the way to stop those guys. Our transition defense was awesome in game 4, I should have mentioned that, but our perimeter defense wasn't always. LBJ and Wade kept getting into the paint and once that happens it's too late to do anything about it. They're too accomplished at finishing, too good at passing out. You can't have enough big guys to cope with all the fouls you'll soak up throwing your bigs at them after they've penetrated.

There are times when it doesn't work perfectly. One example were the tip ins by Bosh. That happened because of poor boxing out by KG. What I don't know, because I don't have the game taped, is whether he was out of position because he had to respond to a penetration, freeing Bosh up on the boards. If KG was out of position because Wade or LBJ or somebody else (but that's unlikely) was penetrating, then that proves my point. Keep the Miami wings out of the paint and your size (or lack thereof) is less relevant because we can match up. Chris Bosh is not going to rip a rebound away from KG if KG doesn't have to leave to pick up someone else's man on a penetration.

bob

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bobheckler wrote:If we were playing Orlando, with D12 prowling the paint and Ryan Anderson and Bass crashing the boards, then size would matter since they have a dominating inside game. The Heat do not. What the Heat have are penetrators. You are in big kimchi if DWade or LBJ are able to turn the corner off a pick. Having some beef there to meet them only gets that beef a couple of quick fouls and a place on the bench (hello Shaq) because then it's too late. IMO, an effective perimeter defense and transition defense are the way to stop those guys... bob

.

Bob,

Exactly. And that was the rationale for the trade that landed Green and Krstic and why we picked up the other bench players we did. We knew that to get to the finals and win, our biggest competition looked (at the time of the trade deadline) like it would come from Miami/Chicago/San Antonio. A big basher inside is of less use than a good perimeter defense against those teams.

I think your opinion is quite in line with why our roster looks the way it does, and why Doc used the lineup and substitution pattern we're discussing here.

Regards

The problem is that there was absolutely NO offensive rebounding the other night. One and done. That was it, four or five jerseys already half way down the court when the shot missed. This cannot happen tonight. LeBron had at least 13-14 rebounds Monday. He wanted that ball and he got it.

What the game plan will be I don't know, but here's to fingers and toes crossed that it ends up being a Boston win!

Rosie,

I happen to agree that they should send another body at the offensive boards, but as I'm sure you know, it's a conscious decision on Doc's part to fall back and set up the defense instead. I'd think it's especially the case against Miami, who can hurt you in transition more than most teams, and the fear is that any additional points gained from offensive rebounds would be more than offset by additional points for Miami in transition because they didn't fall back.

In offensive rebounding during the "big 3" era, the Celtics have been 23rd, 21st, last, and last, so I don't think offensive rebounding is holding them back. In my view, the problem in the last game was offensive execution and poor shooting percentage in the second half. Put the ball in the hole. Rise above.

Outside

good luck everyone...i am going to watch the game on a big screen at a sports bar. It has all been a pleasure and no matter what happens the future looks pretty bright!

jeb wrote:good luck everyone...i am going to watch the game on a big screen at a sports bar. It has all been a pleasure and no matter what happens the future looks pretty bright!

Well said my friend. Enjoy the game