He'd been 94 today!

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=16358504

beat

Beat,Right now, Red's '62-'63 team is playing the Lakers in Cousy's last game on NBA-TV. I sure hope the Celtics win.

Sam

Phew! They beat the Lakers again. I was on pins and needles.

Sam

I'm too old for this stress.

That game was a great example of what I call "volume basketball" by the Celtics

Also a great example of Cousy's right-handed and left-handed running hooks from distance. In fact, it turned out that a lefty hook was the last basket of his career.

Sam

sam wrote:That game was a great example of what I call "volume basketball" by the Celtics

Also a great example of Cousy's right-handed and left-handed running hooks from distance. In fact, it turned out that a lefty hook was the last basket of his career.

Sam

I don't suppose we can get the box scores from that game, could we? I'd like to shove them up some young'uns' butt when they try to tell me the game was much slower then.

fga, in particular, would be of interest.

bob

.

I thought this game went at a blistering pace...especially the first half. I'll look for a box score. Beat also has a magic book that sometimes produces unexpected box scores.

Sam

Okay, Bob, here you go.

Sam

Boston Celtics vs. Los Angeles Lakers
NBA Finals Game 6
Wednesday 04/24/1963 at Los Angeles Sports Arena
Los Angeles, California, USA

Boston Celtics
......................MIN....FGM....FGA....FTM....FTA.....REB....AST....PF....PTS
Bob Cousy.........30.......8.......16........2........2........3.......7......4.....18
John Havlicek.... 28.......8.......20........ 2........3........2.......5......2.....18
Tom Heinsohn....33.......8.......18........6........9........9.......2......4.....22
K.C. Jones.........14.......3.........6........3........4........2.......4......3.......9
Sam Jones.........24.......2.......10........1........3........3.......0......3.......5
Jim Loscutoff........1.......0.........0........0........0........0.......0......0.......0
Frank Ramsey.....20.......4.........8........2........3........1.......0......2.....10
Bill Russell..........48.......5.......12........2........5......24.......9......3.....12
Tom Sanders.......42.......9.......14........0........0........7.......3......5.....18
Totals..........................47.....104......18......29.......61......30....26....112
Team Rebounds: 10

Los Angeles Lakers
.......................MIN.....FGM.....FGA.... FTM....FTA....REB....AST....PF....PTS
Dick Barnett.......24........4......... 12......4........4........1........ 1...... 3.....12
Elgin Baylor........47.......11........ 24......6........6........8........ 8...... 3.....28
Leroy Ellis..........19.........3..........3......3........3........5........1...... 1.......9
Jim Krebs...........12.........0..........3......0........0........2........0......3.......0
Rudy LaRusso.....42.........9 ........14......1........1........5........3......4......19
Frank Selvy........16........13..........1......2........3........3........3......3.......3
Jerry West..........44........13........24.....6.......10........7........9......0.....32
Gene Wiley.........36..........3..........6.....0.........1......14........1......3......6
Totals............................44........89....21.......27......58.......26....20..109
Team Rebounds: 13

...............................1......2......3........4..............F
Boston Celtics...........33....33.....26....20............112
Los Angeles Lakers....35....17..... 28....29............ 109
Head Coaches: Boston Celtics - Red Auerbach, Los Angeles Lakers - Fred Schaus

Attendance: 15521
Start Time: 11:30PM ET
Boston Radio: WHDH[u]

Basketball Reference has been archiving box scores since 1987. Go go onto:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/

Just put the date you want into the appropriate boxes.

There's also a site put up by someone who decided to research the box scores of the Russell Era. Here's the URL:

http://www.risingabovetherim.com/boxscores

Sam

Many thanks go out to Swish for notifying us that NBA-TV would be carrying all sorts of Celtics lore today. Much appreciated, Swish.

Sam

Sam

Watched that game, and the 66 game vs Cincy game 4 when the C's were facing elimination.

Pre bonus fouls were 1 shot fouls then and the old fouled in the backcourt rule too.


Wasn't a lot of what I call fast break basketball BUT the ball was NEVER (well almost never) walked up the court. Couple passes couple cuts and a shot went up.

And although some people used the off (left) hand seemed an awfull lot of right hand dribbling. Not to many were that skilled with the off hand so it appeared.

Did Mendy Rudolph ref every NBA game in the 60's? Seems he did every game they have on tape anyway.
Was he cloned?

Once in a while the camera would show a candid shot of the crowd. Men in suits and ties and ladies in dresses and hats. Clapping! I'd have thought that they were watching Lawrence Welk!


beat

sam wrote:Many thanks go out to Swish for notifying us that NBA-TV would be carrying all sorts of Celtics lore today. Much appreciated, Swish.

Sam

A lot of great stuff on this channel. I check their TV schedule everyday.

check below link

http://www.nba.com/nbatv/schedule/

swish

beat wrote:Sam

Watched that game, and the 66 game vs Cincy game 4 when the C's were facing elimination.

Pre bonus fouls were 1 shot fouls then and the old fouled in the backcourt rule too.


Wasn't a lot of what I call fast break basketball BUT the ball was NEVER (well almost never) walked up the court. Couple passes couple cuts and a shot went up.

And although some people used the off (left) hand seemed an awfull lot of right hand dribbling. Not to many were that skilled with the off hand so it appeared.

Did Mendy Rudolph ref every NBA game in the 60's? Seems he did every game they have on tape anyway.
Was he cloned?

Once in a while the camera would show a candid shot of the crowd. Men in suits and ties and ladies in dresses and hats. Clapping! I'd have thought that they were watching Lawrence Welk!


beat

beat,
Sure is a big difference in the OFF- HAND dribbling skills. Below is a quote from Jerry West in Sports Illustrated in 1991 in a disscussion comparing skill levels between generations.

"The skill that has made the biggest jump is the ball handling," says West, who's now general manager of the Lakers. "There are just more kinds of players who can handle the ball."

swish

The increased ballhandling dexterity seems to have been correlated with the increased emphasis on isolation basketball and the spreading of the offense with the advent of the three-point arc. Whereas the aesthetics of the game used to feature sharp, short, inside passes, they now tend to focus more on individual dribbling—especially the crossover.

Beat, I thought that, in the earlier of the two games (particularly when Cousy was in the game), the Celtics pushed the ball on the vast majority of their possessions and turned the push into a fast break whenever the opportunity presented itself, which was easily on half of the possessions. The Celts had a legitimate PG on the floor for 44 minutes of that game.

Unfortunately, the box score of the 1966 game doesn't show either minutes played or FGA. But KC was really their only real PG, with Havlicek or Sam or Siggy sharing the role when KC was out of the game. So there was more push of the ball and less actual fast-breaking.

However, if you look at the final of that Cincinnati series (won by the Celtics), I think you'll see more fast-breaking, which could suggest that those Celtics were more comfortable (or perhaps more inspired) in fast-breaking at home. The final is presented on Youtube in several parts. I'll post this and then find the URL for that game.

Sam

The URL for Part 1 of the final Celtics-Cinci game in 1966 may be found at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX8urOgwEBM

It goes on for several parts. Usually, at the end of each part, you'll see link to click onto for the next part. If the link doesn't appear, it might be necessary to google something like "Celtics Royals 1966 part 7."

Game 5 is my favorite instructional video for Celtics basketball of the Russell era. Although it wasn't as consistently as fast as when Cousy orchestrated things, it had similar intensity, push-it-up opportunism, volume basketball concept, teamwork, Russell board dominance and blocking, and unswerving class under pressure.

Sam

A look at the Celtics' high scorer for each of the five games in that Cinci series clearly demonstrates the egalitarian nature of the Celtics' offense in those days:

Game 1: Satch 23
Game 2: Russ 20
Game 3: Sam 42
Game 4: Havlicek 36
Game 5: Sam 34

Satch was among the three Celtics top scorers in three of the games (23, 19, 16).

Russ (remember, the guy with no offense?) was high scorer in one game (22), second high-scorer in two games (25 and 18), third high scorer in one game (16), and fifth high scorer (with 17 points) in one game.

Larry Siegfried scored as few as 3 points in one game and as many as 19 and 20 in others, averaging 13.6 PPG.

Willie Naulls and Don Nelson had each averaged 10+ PPG for the Celtics during the regular season. But they pretty much waited in the wings during this one, although Willie did manage 10 points in one game and Nellie squeezed out 9 points in another.)

That's the way it was in those days. It was a team of interchangeable parts. Sam had a horrible showing in the '63 Lakers game (only 5 points), and Red played him only 24 minutes. Yet, in the previous game, Sam had played 43 minutes and scored 36 points.

Red was great at matchups and riding the guy with the hot hand; and those teams had so many offensive threats that opponents never knew where the Celtics offense was going to come from on any given night. Ramsey played 23 minutes (10 points) in the game we just watched but had played only 3 minutes (0 points) in the previous game.

There's a related factor that emerges from a comparison of the stats for Games 5 and 6 in the Lakers '62-'63 series. The Lakers employed more "tall ball" in Game 6, as Leroy Ellis' minutes vaulted from 9 (in Game 5) to 19 (in Game 6) and Gene Wiley's jumped from 29 to 36. Yet the only significant changes in minutes distribution by Red were -19 for Sam and +16 for Ramsey. In effect, in the face of more opposing height, Red subbed in a 6' 3" guy with forward skills for a 6' 4" guy with guard skills (and having a terrible offensive night). And the Celtics weathered the "tall ball" storm without Red's panicking and throwing another "big" into the fray. (Lovellette and Loscutoff were available.)

The insertion of two bigs by the Lakers had resulted in a Baylor-Sam matchup, and Ramsey could play Baylor fairly well as he had first proven during the 1962 "Selvy Game." Therefore, with Ramsey in the game, Satch could switch from guarding Baylor to dealing with the tall timber while being less foul-prone. One of the keys to winning the Cousy finale game was that Satch didn't foul out.

Having so many interchangeable parts with diverse skill sets—players who could blend seamlessly into almost any player combination—gave Red the options to cope with virtually any challenge. Even in this series, the Celtics had two players who had scored double figures for them during the regular season but were pretty much waiting in the wings during this series with the Lakers.

Sam

Sam

As Marcus and I were watching the 1963 Laker game the other eve, he watched for several minutes then said " Hey Dad do you realize that all of those Celtic players are in the Hall Of Fame?"

My reply................yeah, and there are a couple on the bench too.

Took him a bit but he figures out who. (at the time it was Heishon and Hondo)

beat

Fast break basketball gets a lot of ink by many on this board. But just what constitutes an NBA fast break basket? Is there any such thing as a NBA fast break basket, or are we dealing with individual opinions when we see statistics about fast break points?
Just wondering.
swish

Swish

MY OPINION.

To me it is once the defense gets control they look to score as quickly as possible taking advantage of numbers or a man out in front. Certainly all fastbreak scoring does not have to be layups but as we have seen with the current Celtics BALL MOVEMENT can creat a trailer situation for an open outside shot while the defense is still in scramble mode.

To do this effectively every single player on the court has to fill a lane or become a trailer. Cowens was a great example of the trailer. Lumbering up the court after throwing the outlet and as his man sunk in to help in the paint he would be wide open for a 18-20 footer looking straight in.

Anyway from the what it is worht deptartment

beat

[quote="beat"]Swish

MY OPINION.

To me it is once the defense gets control they look to score as quickly as possible taking advantage of numbers or a man out in front. Certainly all fastbreak scoring does not have to be layups but as we have seen with the current Celtics BALL MOVEMENT can creat a trailer situation for an open outside shot while the defense is still in scramble mode.

To do this effectively every single player on the court has to fill a lane or become a trailer. Cowens was a great example of the trailer. Lumbering up the court after throwing the outlet and as his man sunk in to help in the paint he would be wide open for a 18-20 footer looking straight in.

Anyway from the what it is worht deptartment

beat

[/quote

beat,

The fact that you are offering an opinion sort of indicates that you are not aware of any "NBA RULE" that exist that defines a fast break basket. If there is no rule governing fast break baskets then the validity of any such stats would be open to debate. Your opinion sounds good to me beat, but I would think that getting a consensus on a viable rule would be rather difficult.
swish

Swish

I found 2 different "definitions" for the stat fastbreak points.

http://82games.com/fastbreakpoints.htm

(here is part of their quote)

Previously I looked at the NBA's Points in the Paint stats and today is the follow-up that examines at the quirky Fastbreak Points for each team that is listed in the expanded version of the official box score. From what I understand the fastbreak points are defined as points scored within six seconds without a clock stoppage, which is not without some issues.

Most significantly, again from my understanding of how these numbers are compiled:

they do not include points from free throws drawn on a fastbreak
we are not told how many fastbreak shots were, or how many fastbreak turnovers occurred
...and consequently there is no way from the straight box score to extrapolate any kind of efficiency measure for points per possession on "fastbreak" activity


Also found another site which is no more than a talk forum like this one that said the stat was based on scoring within 8 seconds of gaining possession with the clock moving.

For what it is worth.

?????

beat

beat wrote:Swish

I found 2 different "definitions" for the stat fastbreak points.

http://82games.com/fastbreakpoints.htm

(here is part of their quote)

Previously I looked at the NBA's Points in the Paint stats and today is the follow-up that examines at the quirky Fastbreak Points for each team that is listed in the expanded version of the official box score. From what I understand the fastbreak points are defined as points scored within six seconds without a clock stoppage, which is not without some issues.

Most significantly, again from my understanding of how these numbers are compiled:

they do not include points from free throws drawn on a fastbreak
we are not told how many fastbreak shots were, or how many fastbreak turnovers occurred
...and consequently there is no way from the straight box score to extrapolate any kind of efficiency measure for points per possession on "fastbreak" activity


Also found another site which is no more than a talk forum like this one that said the stat was based on scoring within 8 seconds of gaining possession with the clock moving.

For what it is worth.

?????

beat

Great research beat

"defined as points scored within six seconds without a clock stoppage, which is not without some issues."

Based on above definition, in many cases, its nothing more than quick shot selection. In any event, like you say, there isn't much room for any serious analysis.
Thanks
swish

Defining "fast break" is subjective, but I don't think it's that complicated. My take on it is that a fast break is pushing the ball up the court quickly to take advantage of shot opportunities before the defense has a chance to set up.

Outside

sam wrote:Okay, Bob, here you go.

Sam

Boston Celtics vs. Los Angeles Lakers
NBA Finals Game 6
Wednesday 04/24/1963 at Los Angeles Sports Arena
Los Angeles, California, USA

Boston Celtics
......................MIN....FGM....FGA....FTM....FTA.....REB....AST....PF....PTS
Bob Cousy.........30.......8.......16........2........2........3.......7......4.....18
John Havlicek.... 28.......8.......20........ 2........3........2.......5......2.....18
Tom Heinsohn....33.......8.......18........6........9........9.......2......4.....22
K.C. Jones.........14.......3.........6........3........4........2.......4......3.......9
Sam Jones.........24.......2.......10........1........3........3.......0......3.......5
Jim Loscutoff........1.......0.........0........0........0........0.......0......0.......0
Frank Ramsey.....20.......4.........8........2........3........1.......0......2.....10
Bill Russell..........48.......5.......12........2........5......24.......9......3.....12
Tom Sanders.......42.......9.......14........0........0........7.......3......5.....18
Totals..........................47.....104......18......29.......61......30....26....112
Team Rebounds: 10

Los Angeles Lakers
.......................MIN.....FGM.....FGA.... FTM....FTA....REB....AST....PF....PTS
Dick Barnett.......24........4......... 12......4........4........1........ 1...... 3.....12
Elgin Baylor........47.......11........ 24......6........6........8........ 8...... 3.....28
Leroy Ellis..........19.........3..........3......3........3........5........1...... 1.......9
Jim Krebs...........12.........0..........3......0........0........2........0......3.......0
Rudy LaRusso.....42.........9 ........14......1........1........5........3......4......19
Frank Selvy........16........13..........1......2........3........3........3......3.......3
Jerry West..........44........13........24.....6.......10........7........9......0.....32
Gene Wiley.........36..........3..........6.....0.........1......14........1......3......6
Totals............................44........89....21.......27......58.......26....20..109
Team Rebounds: 13

...............................1......2......3........4..............F
Boston Celtics...........33....33.....26....20............112
Los Angeles Lakers....35....17..... 28....29............ 109
Head Coaches: Boston Celtics - Red Auerbach, Los Angeles Lakers - Fred Schaus

Attendance: 15521
Start Time: 11:30PM ET
Boston Radio: WHDH

Sam,

Thanks.

Last season, the team with the highest average fga/game was the Phoenix Suns, with 85.7, followed by the Houston Rockets at 85.1 (Boston was 77-something).

This shows that even the most uptempo team in today's league, led by that sneaky little Canadian, didn't put up as many shots as the team that lost this Championship game back in '62-63 and is totally eclipsed by the one that won. So much for old school basketball being slower!

Is that the air I hear leaking out of today's newbies?

bob

.

The "Anti-Flopper". - Thanks to RedsArmy.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3IK3bvlyzpg

bob

.