SI.com & ESPN; Celtics Interested in Chris Paul

Sadly, the new CBA and negotiations between the players and owners have still left the inmates in charge of the assylum. Paul could give a rat's ass about the Celtics, and we couldn't get him her if we hired Halle Berry as his "housekeeper." Young players don't even want to play for Doc and in a city that is cold and snowy all winter long and half the spring. Prospects for adding quality depth to the current core, not to mention rebuilding after the coming season are bleak at best. Young super stars don't care about Celtic tradition or pride. They just want the big pay day and to have their shot in the sun at as many rings as possible. It just reflects the trend of society's, "ME First," attitude which is ruining the NBA and will eventually ruin the USA.

MD.!

MD,

The reason why they should play is to win as many rings as possible and to make the most money they can. There is nothing wrong with that. You and I would do exactly the same thing if we were in their shoes.

Boston will probably have a hard time enticing top players to come there because of the uncertainty about the Celtics roster after this season. I am sure Ainge will work very hard and will be successful in re-tooling the Celtics with all of the money soon to come off of the books.

TJ:

If Ainge had half of Red Auerbach's brains, I'd be confident in what you say.Young people, especially young athletes in today's society feel a sense of entitlement, like they are owed something by everyone. It starts with kids leagues and works up to high school & college. By the time an elite few are ready to enter the pro ranks they think everyone should bow at their feet and kiss their rear end. Look back to the 70's. Players like Jo Jo White, Cowens etc. were only to happy to the point of being honored to carry on tradition established by Cousy, Russell, & the Jones Boys. Players like Paul, James, Wade, Anthony etc. think they are far above that. Within 10 years or sooner this league (NBA) will have 4 or 5 power teams in the glamour markets and other franchises will fall by the wayside one by one until rings and titles will quickly lose their meaning and significance. Opportunities for young gifted athletes who have mad hoop skills will be far less than they are today. Sadly, when Boston has gotten many major stars since the 90's, it has been when their best days are long behind them. The aged stars are impressed with the Celtic tradition and wish they'd come sooner to have played a bigger part in continuing that tradition. However, youth is wasted on the young.

MD!

gyso wrote:Outside,

I had a interesting site shown to me by a guy on CelticsBlog. It not only has the Celtic player salaries, but their cap holds as well.

http://shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/celtics.jsp

From the looks of it, Sheed no longer has a cap hold. The amnesty rule won't be used by his contract. His salary, both last year and this year, was/is under a half of a million. I never read where he retired and I don't believe that waived player salaries can be cut or eliminated, at least under normal conditions. There was something called "36 year old player exemption" or something like that. Perhaps that is what happened. I've never seen anything in print that explains that at all.

There are some other weird names and situations on the cap hold list. Ray Allen has a player option and until he takes it, his hold is 150%. Jeff Green is at 300%, Krstic and Davis are at 200% and so on down the line. Roshone McLeod? He hasn't played for 10 years. Dana Barros? Candy Man? Pollard? This stuff sticks harder than gum on the bottom of a shoe on a hot summer day!!

bobh is right, most things that I have read about aquiring CP3 involve either Davis or Green and maybe a third team (Indy?).

The amnesty clause is "one per team" and it has to be for a contract pre-2011 CBA (in other words, a contract that is already signed). Once a team uses amnesty, it is gone. A team can wait a year or two (or until the end of the new CBA, I guess) to use it.

gyso

Sheed signed for the (old) mid-level exemption for 3 years. Furthermore, I believe $500k is below the veteran's minimum, so I have strong suspicions about that and, quite frankly, anything called "Sham sports".

If one can only use the amnesty on existing contracts and only once and can use it anytime during this CBA, then I would expect Danny to either use it on Sheed this year OR sign someone to a 2-3 year contract and then use it on them next year, so he can have the additional cap space next year. I think Danny, unless he makes some real blockbuster deals, is just trying to fill out the roster this last, final year of the 3 Amigos and then go big next year.

MDCelts, I would be Halle Berry's housekeeper.

I read somewhere yesterday where a league source said that yesterday was the day the "GMs were practicing their lies". Sounds about right. A whole lotta posturing to try to see what kind of nibbles they might get. Maybe find out another GM's needs are so great he'll go for a headfake.

bob

.

Today's presser had Danny saying he wasn't shopping Rondo, isn't interested in trading Rondo, but it's his job to listen to offers, that he doesn't know how rumors like this get started. After the presser Sharrod Blakely says its like the rumor Danny is shopping KG and wants Kobe, Pau, and one other player. What? Danny wants to get rid of KG? lol Just got to love the way Danny and Doc handle these things. Go Celtics! (I still wouldn't trade Rondo straight up for any other pg in the league.)

Bob,

I don't think Boston has the need or the ability to amnesty Rasheed's contract. It is my impression that he walked away from the contract. He is not getting paid but he never filed the official retirement papers. Since Rasheed "unofficially retired" his contract does not count for salary cap/luxury tax purposes. I think I am correct, but maybe not...

bobheckler wrote:

gyso wrote:Outside,

I had a interesting site shown to me by a guy on CelticsBlog. It not only has the Celtic player salaries, but their cap holds as well.

http://shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/celtics.jsp

From the looks of it, Sheed no longer has a cap hold. The amnesty rule won't be used by his contract. His salary, both last year and this year, was/is under a half of a million. I never read where he retired and I don't believe that waived player salaries can be cut or eliminated, at least under normal conditions. There was something called "36 year old player exemption" or something like that. Perhaps that is what happened. I've never seen anything in print that explains that at all.

There are some other weird names and situations on the cap hold list. Ray Allen has a player option and until he takes it, his hold is 150%. Jeff Green is at 300%, Krstic and Davis are at 200% and so on down the line. Roshone McLeod? He hasn't played for 10 years. Dana Barros? Candy Man? Pollard? This stuff sticks harder than gum on the bottom of a shoe on a hot summer day!!

bobh is right, most things that I have read about aquiring CP3 involve either Davis or Green and maybe a third team (Indy?).

The amnesty clause is "one per team" and it has to be for a contract pre-2011 CBA (in other words, a contract that is already signed). Once a team uses amnesty, it is gone. A team can wait a year or two (or until the end of the new CBA, I guess) to use it.

gyso

Sheed signed for the (old) mid-level exemption for 3 years. Furthermore, I believe $500k is below the veteran's minimum, so I have strong suspicions about that and, quite frankly, anything called "Sham sports".

If one can only use the amnesty on existing contracts and only once and can use it anytime during this CBA, then I would expect Danny to either use it on Sheed this year OR sign someone to a 2-3 year contract and then use it on them next year, so he can have the additional cap space next year. I think Danny, unless he makes some real blockbuster deals, is just trying to fill out the roster this last, final year of the 3 Amigos and then go big next year.

MDCelts, I would be Halle Berry's housekeeper.

I read somewhere yesterday where a league source said that yesterday was the day the "GMs were practicing their lies". Sounds about right. A whole lotta posturing to try to see what kind of nibbles they might get. Maybe find out another GM's needs are so great he'll go for a headfake.

bob

.

bob,

The amnesty clause is "one per team" and it has to be for a contract pre-2011 CBA (in other words, a contract that is already signed).

From what I have read, there was a similar amnesty clause in 2005. The 2005 version had to be used in the first season of that CBA where the 2011 version can be used in any season of the new CBA. I didn't pay attention to that part of the game back then so I have no recollection of it.

gyso

Wow, it's great to see all these posters coming back into the fold.

Some time ago, my wife and I scheduled an Aruba vacation for Dec. 2-9. Given that not much NBA news of a public nature (except for rumors) can eventuate before Dec. 9, I am currently drinking a piña colada, congratulating myself on my extraordinary clairvoyant powers, and wrapping up the packing job for tomorrow's departure. My luggage will be minimal: one Speedo (major potato size) and one laptop.

I hope everyone has fun with the rumor mill over the next week. When I return, I expect you'll all have the Celtics straightened out for at least this season.

Take care and be well. And Go Celtics!

Sam

No need to come back, Sam, I have it ALL under control. lol I will be thinking of you as I sit back and enjoy this Colorado snow fall. I've only made $50 in the last two weeks. Maybe I should take early retirement? lol At least I'm not really homeless. The plan is to survive the next two weeks and fly to Cozumel Dec 15. It really is good to see this forum cranking up again. enjoy your visit to Aruba and be really kind to the missus so you don't miss us. lol
Mulcogi

sam wrote:Wow, it's great to see all these posters coming back into the fold.

Some time ago, my wife and I scheduled an Aruba vacation for Dec. 2-9. Given that not much NBA news of a public nature (except for rumors) can eventuate before Dec. 9, I am currently drinking a piña colada, congratulating myself on my extraordinary clairvoyant powers, and wrapping up the packing job for tomorrow's departure. My luggage will be minimal: one Speedo (major potato size) and one laptop.

I hope everyone has fun with the rumor mill over the next week. When I return, I expect you'll all have the Celtics straightened out for at least this season.

Take care and be well. And Go Celtics!

Sam

Sam........ have a great time but the potato line just cracked me up!!! Reminded me of an old joke about a smart guy and a dumb guy walking down a beach with several lightly claded females all around. At the end of the day back at their room the dumb guy asked the smart guy why all the girls were flocking around him. Smart guy reached into his swim trunks and pulled out a potato. He said to the dumb guy put this in you trunks and the girls will come swarming.

Next day the dumb guy gets up early and does his thing with the potato and heads to the beach alone. By noon he is back in the room all upset and tells the smart guy that he did what he said but all the girls only pointed and laughed. Smart guy looked at him and said "I TOLD YOU TO PUT IT IN THE FRONT NOT THE BACK"

so Sam put the potatoe (in honor on Dan Quale) in the front! And have a great time!!

beat

tjmakz wrote:Bob,

I don't think Boston has the need or the ability to amnesty Rasheed's contract. It is my impression that he walked away from the contract. He is not getting paid but he never filed the official retirement papers. Since Rasheed "unofficially retired" his contract does not count for salary cap/luxury tax purposes. I think I am correct, but maybe not...

TJ,

I am almost certain that Sheed's contract, the $6.7 million he's owed this year, counts against the salary cap. It seems absurd to me that a) they have to pay him for services not rendered; and b) when a player has retired but hasn't filed retirement papers with the league, that this non-player's contract counts against a team's cap for the duration of the contract. There must be some scenario that I can't think of that this addresses, some way that a GM could game the system if it wasn't that way, but it doesn't make sense to me. Yet based on everything I've ever read about this, that's the way it is.

The caveat here is that's how it worked under the old CBA. Here's a summation from Larry Coon of Hoops World, as relayed on Red's Army:

Q: Rasheed Wallace says he's going to retire. What happens to the Celtics' cap? Does his salary come off?

Larry Coon: When a player is under contract, he's expected to show up at the team's training camp and be available for the season. That's what the team is paying him for. If the player decides he's ready to hang 'em up before his contract is over – like Rasheed Wallace – he can file retirement papers with the league. But he doesn't get to walk away from the game and keep earning his salary. If he retires, then he forfeits any remaining salary, and the salary comes off the team's books.

One recent example of this came when Jason Williams signed with the LA Clippers in August 2008. Williams thought better of the decision a little over a month after signing, and filed retirement papers with the league. His salary came off the Clippers' books.

Should Wallace decide to file retirement papers with the league, $6,322,320 would come off the Celtics' books next season.

The team and player can reach an agreement whereby the team continues to pay the player in retirement, but this is rare. This happened when James Worthy retired from the Lakers in 1994. Any amount the team pays the player in retirement continues to count against the team's cap.

If the player doesn't show up and doesn't file for retirement, then he's technically under breach of contract. The team could either seek to void the contract, or suspend the player without pay. If the contract is voided then it comes off the team's books; but if the player is suspended without pay then the cap hit (and taxable salary) would remain.

http://www.redsarmy.com/home/2010/06/what-rasheeds-retirement-means-to-bostons-salary-cap-figure.html

Sam,
Aruba.... mmmmm - words of a man not a boy
But be careful about those Speedo. I read about a guy who got sick and tired of all this stupid security at the airports and went through wearing just boxers. Result = got arrested. For indecent exposer.
Also be careful - you might like there. Otherwise have a great time.

AK

Beat, I'll be sure to get the potato in the front, but it kind of worries me when I think of all of BobH's comments about Mr. Potato Head.

Sinus, if I get into trouble, I'll try to make sure it's a female security agent and shell consider it decent exposure.

Mulcogi,

If it weren't for Social Security, I'd be right there with you in the earnings category. You sound like many recent college grads who claim not to have a cent and then say, "Since I don't have a job, I think I'll fly to Europe and backpack for a year or so." Please tell me the secret of how that happens.

On a more serious not, I hope you hit the Mother Lode in Mexico. Just be sure you get it in dollars rather than pesos.

Sam

Have a wonderful trip Sam & Mrs. Sam! When you come back we will have
rebuilt the second half of our Celtic team and will be ready to kick butt on
opening night!!

Take care and enjoy!

Rosalie

Donny Marshall (not the brightest bulb in the box, IMO) is saying that one of the reasons Rondo's name is popping up at all is because he is wearing out his welcome here.

By that, it is meant, his personality. His reputation of being stubborn.

Whatever. Seven more days until camp opens.

bob

.

Donny better watch himself, if the Celtics are not too crazy about what he has to say, he may be the one gone. He's always liked the limelight, and this will
certainly draw attention.

Yesterday was the first day players could use practice facilities to work out.

Two Celtics showed up. To the surprise of no one, Ray Allen, consummate professional that he is, was in early. Rondo showed up later in the day.

C'mon guys! Get your butts into the gym and get ready! How about a couple of informal pickup games?

bob

.

Donny Marshall has never been nor will he ever be a Celtic. He is in the shonnysee school of hatchet job journalism. Ignore him mebbe he will go away. lol

Here's an interesting story that was written today about Rondo.
I'm posting this because there has been recent Rondo trade speculation.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7306324/rajon-rondo-player-build-team-nba

TJ,
Thanks.
Can you post the whole article, the link is just a beginning.

AK

tjmakz wrote:Here's an interesting story that was written today about Rondo.
I'm posting this because there has been recent Rondo trade speculation.

[url=http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7306324/rajon-rondo-player-build-team-nba

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7306324/rajon-rondo-player-build-team-nba[/quote[/url]]

tj,

Many of us (me?) don't get ESPN Insider. The little bit that I can see doesn't say much.

Could you please copy-and-paste some of the juicy parts so we can all slam ESPN? (LOL)

Seriously, I would be interested in how Rondo may be perceived from another viewpoint.

Thanks,

gyso

Sorry, I didn't realize it was an Insider article.
Not a very flattering article about Rondo.
I agree with his analysis about Rondo's assist numbers, but I still really like Rondo's game.
He is only going to keep getting better.
Maybe now LA could get Rondo on the cheap...
Below is a copy and paste of the article.



How good is Rajon Rondo?



It's a timely question. With New Orleans Hornets point guard Chris Paul on the trading block, the Boston Celtics have reportedly floated their own All-Star point guard in talks with the league-owned franchise. Putting aside the piercing irony of a small-market team potentially trading a perennial MVP candidate to a big-market team right after the lockout, the whispers of a Rondo-for-Paul swap already have the basketball world buzzing even before the ink dries on the CBA.



Looking at this trade proposal, you can't help revisiting that initial question:

Really, just how good is Rajon Rondo?



Yes, it's a timely question, but it's also a fascinating one that should yield some far-ranging opinions. Rondo represents one of the NBA's greatest riddles because he's an integral part of an incredibly successful team, but it's hard to pinpoint exactly how responsible he is for his team's success. Looking at Rondo's particular situation in Boston, we can learn a few things about how to distribute individual credit for team success.




Surely, Rondo is an above-average point guard. We can start there. You don't just average 11.2 assists per game by being a chump. And since assists have become the perceived currency of point guard value, Rondo appears to have earned his spot as one of the game's great floor generals.



Assists are tricky, though. As the saying goes, it takes two to tango. When it comes to Rondo, he starts the assist with a pass, and usually this is what happens: A Hall of Famer finishes it with a bucket. As long as the league refuses to track potential assists -- as in, passes that generate a good look, not necessarily a good result -- we will always have an imperfect measure of passing ability. After all, the passer relinquishes his control once the ball leaves his hands. The rest is up to the receiver.



Because of the chicken-or-the-egg nature of assists, we have to be careful about guys like Rondo. Since his sophomore season in the league, he has been surrounded by Hall of Famers who are historically talented shot-makers. A trio of Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett is what point guard dreams are made of. But this has been Rondo's reality for most of his career in the NBA.



So let's dig deeper into those gaudy assist totals and see whether we can separate what is Rondo and what isn't. One way to zoom in on his true talent is to remove a Hall of Famer from the equation. What happens to Rondo's assist rates when one of Boston's Big Three leaves the floor?



Consider this: When Ray Allen was on the court, Rondo tallied 11.4 assists per 36 minutes. When Ray Allen left the court?



8.0 assists per 36 minutes -- the equivalent of Devin Harris' rate last season.



That's an enormous effect. Put another way, 30 percent of Rondo's assists vanished when Allen stepped off the court. And that wasn't an isolated bruise, either; he Boston offense took a considerable hit as well. The Celtics' offensive efficiency dropped from a blistering 108.6 points per 100 possessions to a meager 102.7 points when Rondo saw Allen leave the court.



And Pierce? We saw a similar drop-off in Rondo's assists when the small forward hit the bench and an even more dramatic slide in the overall team context. When Pierce hit the pine, Rondo's assist rate fell from 11.2 to 9.2 and the offense suffered greatly, dropping from 110.2 points per 100 possessions to a subterranean 95.0 points per 100 possessions. Yes, that's a 15.2-point drop-off.



For teams interested in Rondo, these on-court relationships should weigh heavily in the scouting report. In Allen, Rondo has one of the best spot-up shooters of all time and, perhaps more importantly, a magician off the ball. Pierce has carved out one of the most crafty offensive arsenals in the game. Without them by his side, the Boston offense was completely neutered.



That shouldn't happen with a top-flight point guard. What makes Rondo such a unique player is that he can't create offense for himself, which severely compromises his value on the court. Elite point guards like Paul, Derrick Rose, Steve Nash and Deron Williams all share the ability to take over games with their own scoring without depending on teammates. When Boston's Big Three weren't on the floor, you'd expect a point guard with Rondo's prestige to raise his game. In those situations, Rondo only managed to score a paltry 11.8 points per 36 minutes. His assists dropped to 7.1 assists per 36 minutes.



At this point, you might be growling, "Of course, Rondo and his team suffers when Hall of Famers leave the court!" This much is obvious, but what isn't obvious is how much of Boston's success we should attribute directly to Rondo.



Think about this for a second: Could Rondo take a team starting Marco Belinelli, Trevor Ariza, Carl Landry and Emeka Okafor to six games against the Lakers in the playoffs? Could he lead the Phoenix Suns to almost a winning record like Steve Nash did?



[+] Enlarge
Layne Murdoch/NBAE/Getty Images
Rondo's lack of scoring ability keeps him a notch below the level of young star guards like Russell Westbrook.

These are essential questions when it comes to players like Rondo, who have so much of their offensive value lumped into one category. While it's true that Rondo isn't just an assist compiler -- he's a pesky defender and an above-average rebounder -- potential buyers should pay attention to what happens when he's not surrounded by Hall of Famers. The more you look at the numbers, Rondo appears to be the sweetener, not the coffee.



For stacked lineups like the one in Boston, Rondo can be the difference-maker. But for small-market teams looking to rebuild, it's hard to mention Rondo in the same breath as other talented youngsters like Russell Westbrook and Rose. Without an outside scoring game, a player like Rondo has a ceiling that can only go so far. Sharing the court with other superstars further clouds the picture, but as we've seen with Rondo, he owes a significant chunk of his value to his teammates.



Which players show similar warning signs? Tony Parker comes to mind. The similarities are eerie. Like Rondo, the only team Parker has ever known is one that annually competes for championships. Like Rondo, he fell late in the draft primarily over concerns about his shot. Like Rondo, he played with one of the best power forwards of all time, not to mention an All-Star wing in Manu Ginobili. If a team wants to rebuild with point guards like Rondo and Parker, they have to separate what's nature and what's nurture.



Rondo represents a small group of fine players who shine brightest next to superstars. No one would call Rondo a role player because of the pejorative connotation, but non-scorers like Tyson Chandler -- a castoff in Charlotte who arguably may have been the second-best player on a title team -- and Rondo need scorers next to them in order to leverage their talents. The same goes for low-usage high-energy guys like Joakim Noah and Gerald Wallace.



Celtics general manager Danny Ainge has denied that he's looking to trade Rondo, and that may just be a public relations ploy. However, because of Rondo's unique talents, there's some evidence that Rondo means more to the Celtics than any other team. That may be a good thing for his own valuations. But for potential rebuilding suitors outside of Boston, the warning is clear: Buyer beware.



Tom Haberstroh covers the NBA for ESPN Insider and ESPN The Magazine. He is a member of ESPN.com's Heat Index and contributes to Insider's college basketball, college football and baseball coverage. He contributes to ESPN The Magazine and ESPNNewYork.com and previously worked as a consultant for ESPN Stats & Information and as an analyst for HoopData.com. You can find his ESPN archives here and follow him on Twitter here

TJ,

Thanks for posting this article. I just had a nice little knock-down-drag-out with a friend of mine, who is a Warrior fan (poor bastard), last night about this issue. Interestingly, another friend who was engaged in this conversation also is a diehard Laker fan, and he agreed with me.

Friend #1 agreed with Haberstroh about Rondo playing with elite players, so of course his numbers are going to be gaudy. While it is safe to say that feeding a wide-open Ray Allen will make any point guard look good it is also true that players will go to their sweet shooting spot (Ray Allen just has more of them than most) and look for the ball when playing with a pass-first-shoot-second point guard.

I'm not as bothered by this analysis as some might think. Rondo's inconsistent and unreliable jumpshot is one of the most scouted foibles in the league. Teams routinely go under pics, rather than over, daring Rondo to shoot. And yet, he still continues to be able to penetrate and get layups despite defenders falling off of him, he still manages to get defenses to feel they need to cheat just enough off their man so that he can hit a Ray Allen, Paul Pierce or KG with a pass with the extra beat of time for them to get a good look at the basket.

Would his assists go down if he played on another team? I'm sure they would. Another question that could be asked, though, is "would another team's fg% increase materially if Rondo was their point guard?"

IMO, the answer would be "Hell Yes!". This doesn't mean that team's offensive fg% would rival the Celtics' but pass-first point guards make everybody better. Players run more if they believe they'll get rewarded with a dunk if they do. Players will set bonecrushing pics if they believe freeing up a player will result in that player getting the pass and an open shot. Getting run into on a pic isn't much fun if you don't believe it'll pay off because the guy you freed up is never going to see the ball anyway.

Every coach wants a more efficient offense. Well, marginally increasing the effectiveness of every player on the floor, is a damn good way to do it.

bob

.

Is anyone talking about Rondo's defense? I may be all wet, but I rate him higher that Chris Paul in this area.

Pete

TJ,
Thanks again for the interesting read.
If I had to use just one word to summarize the article it'd be oversimplified ( a little too long but still one word): if you take his assists RR is a mediocre PG. As if an assist is just a mundane pass to a teammate.
Also, what's this statistical fetish? Is it a prerequisite to be published on ESPN Insider?
Anyway, it's a good read. Some things that TH put forward are true the others are questionable. But mostly he compiled what everybody already knows.

AK