A note about Reggie Lewis and Ainge's Claim to Fame

I haven't been a fan of Danny Ainge ever since he traded Antoine Walker. He traded away the spirit of the team, and I believe we waited another seven or eight years before we had a decent team again.
The same goes for trading away Nate Robinson and Kendrick Perkins (even worse in that instance)
A couple of years ago a friend told me a story about how Danny Ainge went to Red Auerbach when the big three were starting to age, and suggested that he trade them away, before they whithered. I took it with a grain of salt as an urban legend,... until I heard Danny tell the story himself in an interview. It is supposed to be sort of a boast that had Red taken his advice, the Celtics wouldn't have experienced a decade of lousy basketball to follow.
The main problem with Danny's boast (other than that he's trying to one up the legendary Red Auerbach), is His Reggieness - aka Reggie Lewis. This conversation between Danny and Red happened somewhere around 1990. Danny simply could not have known that Reggie Lewis would die a few years later.
The way I remember it in 1993 was that the Celtics were a strong team, with Reggie becoming one of the top stars, and McHale still very strong. If we can build a team around Rondo, a guy who has an inconsistent outside shot, then I don't think we would have had any problems building a strong team around Reggie back in those days. I think Danny's boastful story is totally bunk.

Not to mention that Danny added a good seven years to our wait, by trading away the Jim O'Brien team. In reality, all we had to do was wait 2 or 3 years for Vin Baker's ridiculous contract to expire, and we could have picked up a decent big man. In those days, you couldn't beat the Western teams without a decent Center.

But that is not Danny's style. Danny doesn't wait. And he was the same on the court. He was a firebrand. Super quick, super athletic. It's good to have the guts to be able to change things up. But unnecessary changes, are unwelcome in my book. And Danny is full of bologna.
RIP Red, and RIP Reggie

Josh,

Reggie played for the Celtics between 1987-1993.  Bird retired in 1992 and was almost useless due to his back issues his last year or two.  McHale lasted until 1993.  Parish lasted until 1994, so he was still here when Reggie died, but was 39 years old the year Reggie died.  My point is that we had the Big 3 when Reggie was here but, because they were on their last legs and he was still on his way up, our team was in decline.  Larry and Kevin were still here, and while we felt good about it (trade Larry Legend?!  OMG!), it didn't help us win a championship.

I've never been a fan of 'Toine's, so I'm afraid I'm not going to agree with you on that.  I thought he was a power forward who rebounded like a small forward, shot WAY too many 3s and was undersized on defense.  His wiggle, which a lot of fans liked, irked the shit out of me.  

Antoine Walker was traded to Dallas 9 days before the start of the 2003-2004 season.  We got Ray Allen on draft day (end of June) 2007 and KG a month or so after that.  That's 4 years, not 7 or 8.  Besides, Antoine Walker was traded BACK to the Celtics in February, 2005.  He played, and started 24 games for us that year, averaging 34.5mpg and shot 44% from the field and 56% from the line.  He averaged 3.0apg and 2.9 TOs, not that great for someone who needed the ball in his hands to be effective.  This was his LAST effective year.  Starting with the 2006 season on, his game was in clear decline.  To sum up, we got Walker's best years, only was without him for 2 1/2 years (2003, 2004 and part of 2005) and then unloaded him to Atlanta just as his shelf life expired.  To me, that's perfect timing. The only thing I would have done differently is that I wouldn't have brought him back at all, but that's me. One of the things we got from Dallas in the 2003 trade was a draft choice.  That draft pick turned out, in next year's draft, to be Delonte West.  Delonte West was one of the pieces Danny used to trade for Ray Allen in 2007, along with Wally and the #5 pick (who turned out to be Jeff Green).  No Ray Allen, no KG.  Flat out.   Period.  KG has said so explicitly himself. No Ray Allen or KG, no #17. I'd say that all of Trader Danny's machinations, including breaking up the O'Brien team, are validated by the banner hanging in the rafters. Furthermore, by trading Delonte (whom Danny drafted with the draft pick from Dallas as part of the 'Toine trade) gave Rondo his chance to blossom.  

Vin Baker was suspended for his alcohol problem and released 37 games into the 2003-2004 season and Danny didn't hold onto his contract for long.  In fact, he only played for us for about a year and a half (2002-2003 and less than half a season in 2003-2004).  Yeah, I know, it just felt a lot longer, like dog years long.  He signed with the NY Knicks after being released by us, so we didn't have any contract obligations to him.


bob


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Bob,

I believe it's true that the Celtics went on an immediate and exciting winning streak when Antoine returned, and then he reverted to form and the bottom fell out for the Celtics. Josh, to each his own, but Antoine is on the list of my most disliked Celtics. Not as bad as Sidney Wicks and Curtis Rowe, but at the same general level. I was initially excited by all the tools Toine had to work with, but he didn't use them well. Moreover, I grew to believe he was the antithesis of a true Boston Celtic; in other words, the opposite of a team player....from chucking inopportune threes all over the place to calling attention to himself with the stupid wiggle. I hope he's somehow on the way to growing up and getting a grip on reality.

But, as I suggested earlier, I certainly respect your opinion, and I know you must have some good reasoning behind it.

Sam

I have to agree with Sam & Bob on Walker.

I was at a game in his rookie year and I thought he had the potential to be a really good player. Like Sam said, so many tools, but something was missing. Aside from all the missed 3 pointers, he also missed a ton of easy inside baskets. He would work his way in there, get a great high % shot, and miss. I could never figure that out.

DA inherited a mess! Pitino set us back years with his poor judge of talent and lousy contracts. Vin Bakers wasn't the only disaster, 9 players let go or traded to make room for Travis Knight!!!Chauncy Billips and Joe Johnson traded before they were given a chance.

I always thought that due due his years coaching in college, he had trouble judging NBA talent because they looked so much better than college players. And don't get me going on his ego and inability to communicate effectively. Ok, I'll stop now.

Josh glad you are back, this is going to be a fun year as there are low expectations.

Pete

I always have trouble with people that make, in this case, a boasting story and the only other person privy to the conversation is dead and you can't corroborate it. If Danny did indeed state this/imply this, he's clearly an idiot, whether true or not.

Josh,

Interesting take.

Although your post is more about the actions of Danny Ainge, the Antoine Walker part is what caught my eye.  That along with your mention of what I suppose we could call the Jim O'Brien era.  In many ways I think Walker is one of the most intriguing if not polarizing figures the team has seen in decades.  It seems as if half the Celtics fans that saw Walker loved him and resent the team for letting him go, twice, and the other half despise him.  It's been years now, yet Walker still creeps back into the conversation about Celtic basketball often.

I have read several opinions that part of the allure of Walker for many Celtic fans is his being essentially the last remaining indirect connection to the Bird years.  Maybe so.  I also think that a certain amount of hope came along with Walker that he might help make the team relevant again.  He did have a unique skill set as a stretch forward, but I'm not sure he played for many coaches that were able to put those skills to good use, or to keep Walker's ego in check.  I think the control Pitino exerted over him at Kentucky evaporated in the NBA, which I always found strange since Pitino did a reasonable job of reining Pierce in for the brief time they were together.  Walker could certainly play, as evidenced in part by his putting Udonis Haslem on the bench in the Miami Heat's first championship run.  He just couldn't seem to keep it focused and on the tracks for many consecutive seasons.  Jim O'Brien appeared to at least have enough of Walker's respect to get Antoine to stop that wiggle long enough to play a key role on both ends of the floor for a couple of years.

As for Jim O'Brien and his teams, he did manage to bring playoff basketball back to Boston with a team that he somehow sold on playing effective defense.  Getting the likes of Walker, Pierce, Tony Battie and Kenny Anderson to bear down and defend may have been a modern miracle.  Some may remember that team, including Walker, adopted the motto "defend like wolves," and made it as far as the Eastern Conference finals.  That was squeezing a lot out of what was a team of journeymen and young upstarts.

Personally, I always felt the ill feelings between Ainge and O'Brien that led to Obie's departure due to personnel moves were especially unfortunate given the roster Ainge ended up building.  With no disrespect to Doc or the job he did I thought O'Brien, not Rivers, would have been the right basketball mind to lead that '07 - '08 championship squad. Although I completely understand a coach leaving after a new GM dismantles what the coach had started to build into a contender, I wish Obie had somehow stuck around to see where it was all going.

The story of Danny suggesting Red should have unloaded The Big Three when they still had some value could come back to bite Ainge if it turns out he waited too long to take his own advice.  We'll have to wait and see on that one.

Regards

Walker was definitely not one of my favorite Celtics. He had talent, I will admit that, but his basketball smarts were zero. He could have done so much more with his talents, but he fell in love with being just a shooter, no mater when he had the ball. I think this is one of the reasons why I dislike Josh Smith so much. No matter how many times he misses he still takes a shot instead of looking for a teamate. Maybe the comparison is wrong to some, but I was not sorry to see Walker go, both times.


Walker still has many fans here in Boston, Josh, and I am sure there are players I have followed who some would question. The important thing is that you are. A Celtics fan first!!!
It is great to have another voice on the board to share your thoughts. Welcome.

Rosalie

sam wrote:Bob,

I believe it's true that the Celtics went on an immediate and exciting winning streak when Antoine returned, and then he reverted to form and the bottom fell out for the Celtics.  Josh, to each his own, but Antoine is on the list of my most disliked Celtics.  Not as bad as Sidney Wicks and Curtis Rowe, but at the same general level.  I was initially excited by all the tools Toine had to work with, but he didn't use them well.  Moreover, I grew to believe he was the antithesis of a true Boston Celtic; in other words, the opposite of a team player....from chucking inopportune threes all over the place to calling attention to himself with the stupid wiggle.  I hope he's somehow on the way to growing up and getting a grip on reality.

But, as I suggested earlier, I certainly respect your opinion, and I know you must have some good reasoning behind it.

Sam

sam,

According to basketball-reference.com, we actually had a pretty good record when Walker came back to the Celtics in 2005, to give credit where credit is due.

In those 24 games, in 2005, our record was 16-8 including two runs of 4 wins and a 7 game winning streak.  Not bad, not bad at all.  

And the next year he was in decline.  So, even if bringing him back was a good idea, unloading him the next year was even better.

He was a 6'8", 225# PF.  He has been described as a "stretch 4", a role which bothers me but I'm trying to learn to appreciate with the arrival of Kelly O, but the truth was that he was a tweener.  He was big for a 3, and quite slow and almost strictly a half court player, but had no inside game to punish his smaller opponents with.  He was small for a 4 and got overwhelmed by legit 4s inside.

Trading 3x all-star Walker for perennial all-star and future HOFer Ray Allen is a no-brainer to me, not even including the effect Ray's acquisition had on KG's willingness to come here.  Sure, it wasn't an obvious one-for-one trade, or even a one-for-multiple trade, it was one that took a few years to put together using assets accumulated over years but that's what it was.  We got some pieces for him and one of them was a key trading chip for Ray.  Would KG have accepted a trade to Boston if we had Pierce and Walker instead of Pierce and Ray?  We'll never know, Thank God, but my gut says no.  For one thing, Walker was drafted the same year as Ray Allen, 1996.  If one thought we had a short window when the 3 Amigos came here in 200, it would have been a porthole if it had been Pierce, Walker and KG.  Where would Walker have played with KG here?  3?  Too slow, and that would have pushed Pierce to 2.  With Perk still here there was no need for KG to play 5 (and, to be brutally honest, in 2008 KG still had the speed to play 4).  With Ray at 2 and Pierce at 3, KG at 4 was a natural fit.  Not so with Pierce and Walker.

In 2007, Antoine Walker was traded to Minny with Doleac, Wayne Simien (who?) and a 1st round pick for Ricky Davis and Mark Blount.  That tells you right there what he was worth, the year before KG came here.  He had to be packaged with an underachieving big man, and unknown and a 1st round pick for those two.  Doleac's last year was that year in Minny.  Simien was waived 5 days after the trade.  Walker played one year in Minny and then got traded again to Memphis.  Is that a player KG would have come to play with?

Sorry, but Antoine Walker just sets off a Pavlovian response in me that resembles 'roid rage.  I realize that's not what this whole thread is about.  When Antoine Walker was traded away, I danced a jig (both times).  When Ray and KG arrived I danced jigs too, just in the opposite direction.


bob

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Bob,

Actually, I believe Antoine played 33 games for the Celtics that season, including playoffs.  (He missed one playoff game win.)  In his first 12 games, the Celtics (as I said) started well, going 11-1.  During the rest of the season and the six playoff games in which he played, they went 9-12.

During the winning streak, he almost had me convinced I had judged him too harshly during his previous Celtics tenure.  During the final 12, I felt validated.  Something that bothered me even more than his awful three-point-shooting judgment was that he continually penetrated, only to short-arm the easy bucket.

When you danced those jigs, it wasn't your shadow behind you.  It was I.

Sam

Antoine Walker.... A player with talent but no direction.

His blatant indiscretions were a constant reminder of the failed Pitino era and a failed draft (I believe Kobe Bryant was drafted in 1996 as well). He never quite lived up to the highly-inflated hype to match his highly-inflated ego.

KJ

Hey guys, I'm living in Ecuador, & I just moved out to a rural place where I don't have as much internet access. So I might be slow to respond to things.
But just real quick, I should say that I think I've been proven wrong on a few things, especially that there was only 4 years between the Walker/McCarty trade ( was it McCarty?) and the onset of the new big 3. And I can definitely admit that ainge did make a lot of great moves in that time, aquiring Rondo, Perkins, West, who knows who else... I think Dannys got an incredible scouting operation going on, & I think he's a great mover and shaker...
I need to head out for the morning, but I would definitely like to respond to some of the other ideas. In due time.

Joshsnider wrote:Hey guys, I'm living in Ecuador, & I just moved out to a rural place where I don't have as much internet access. So I might be slow to respond to things.
But just real quick, I should say that I think I've been proven wrong on a few things, especially that there was only 4 years between the Walker/McCarty trade ( was it McCarty?) and the onset of the new big 3. And I can definitely admit that ainge did make a lot of great moves in that time, aquiring Rondo, Perkins, West, who knows who else... I think Dannys got an incredible scouting operation going on, & I think he's a great mover and shaker...
I need to head out for the morning, but I would definitely like to respond to some of the other ideas. In due time.

Josh,

Not a problem, looking forward to hearing your thoughts when you can get to them. Nobody's going to attack you so, as long as you don't attack them, feel free to voice your opinions clearly. Gotta love a Celtic fan that's so hard-core he has to make a big effort to follow his/her team. We've got board members in Sweden (that's where you are now, right Swede? Not Estonia anymore?), Berlin and we've had people from the Phillipines, Nepal and other places.

On the other note, where in Ecuador do you live now? I had plans to go to Ecuador a few years ago (Galapagos and Cuenca and other places) but cancelled that trip when the friend I was going with suddenly came down with Lyme's Disease and couldn't do it. I AM DEFINITELY going to make it there someday. One of the thoughts I had was volunteering at an orchid farm for a little bit. That would qualify as "rural", wouldn't it? :-)

take care,


bob


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We should have used that 5th pick on Noah.

I went with my family to the Galapagos with a brief stopover in Guayaquil in 2001. If you have a chance to go, I cannot recommend it highly enough. They fortunately have restrictions in place to limit the size of vessels approaching the islands and the number of people who can be on an island at any particular time. The company we chose (Lindblad) has more participatory tours than the usual outfit, so we spent a lot of time hiking, snorkeling, and accessing areas by zodiac boat than just seeing things from the ship. Without natural land predators, most of the wildlife have no fear of humans, so you literally have to step over and around marine iguanas, blue-footed boobies, frigate birds, and albatrosses. As long as you're not near a bull defending a beach, the sea lions were as playful as I've ever seen, especially when we were snorkeling. We saw huge groups of dolphin and followed two fin whales and a blue whale for an hour or so -- all three of them in the 90-100 foot range in length. The people we met were friendly and engaging. One of the best trips we've ever made.

I wish we could've spent some time in the mountains, but time and financial constraints prevented that (plus there wound up being a volcanic eruption that may have derailed those plans anyway).

As for Antoine Walker, whenever I hear his name, I always think of his quote when asked why he shot so many threes -- "Because there are no fours."

Josh,

One of my best friends had an advertising agency, and one of his financial people stole him blind and basically wiped him out. So he and his wife sold their Vermont house and made a late-life (around age 67) change, taking up residence in Cuenca, which I believe is the second-largest city in Ecuador. They are living on only his social security money—and are doing so with such ease that they recently bought an investment place in Orlando. They live in a gorgeous apartment with maid service, overlooking the city. They enjoy the frequent festivals from their living room, and don't own a car because they can get anywhere by taxi for a dollar or two. They love food-shopping at specialty markets. It's relatively stable and safe. And apparently people visit from around the world for what are called "medical vacations" because the medical facilities are quite advanced. The climate is pretty temperate despite the fact that they're in the mountains. There's a large enclave of American expatriots with whom they get together frequently. Sounds like a thriving paradise.

Ii believe you're our first member from South America. We're delighted to have you on board.

Sam