In The Moment....

dbrown

I was only home in time to watch most of the last quarter, yeah the bulls could not fall out of a boat and hit water. They went completely cold and it was not all the Laker D either they just could not make a shot and they got multiple shots on many possessions too.

As for looking for the triangle set I saw very little of anything that looked anything like what has been described, did see Gasol at the elbow but no one was on the wing extended on that side and on the week side (Bynum and Odem were closer than my wife and I in bed, certainly not spaced as I thought/think the triangle is designed for. Saw a lot of wing picks and iso's for Kobe.

Anyway Lakers had trouble putting big points up but certainly put up enough to win. Did not see enough of the game to go into much more depth.

beat

followed this discussion and thanks to Outside (and to Sam and all who kept asking for more and more ! ) i am thinking, "So THAT'S what's been going on out there!!" - now i'll have a much better idea what to pay attention to.

great thread, epitomizes the reasons i come to samcelt forum ...
Michael in Denver

jeb

Funny thing if it were all about Kobe look at the +- stat.

Kobe played 39 minutes and while out there the Lakers allowed 3 more points than they scored.
yet they won by 11.

Perhaps we need kobe to play the entire 48.
Even Gasol was a +-0

go figure.

Just to add a note, what I was discussing was the triangle offense in general, not the Lakers offense specifically. As we all know, Kobe can plunge them into isolation basketball, and I'm sure the Lakers don't run the triangle all the time. But in their defense, it's common for teams to get out of their offense due to good defense or lack of discipline.

As a coach, I remember taking particular delight in the times the players actually ran the offense and it worked as designed, but those times weren't nearly as frequent as I would like. You'd think pros could run their offense consistently, but when you see those "mike in the huddle" snippets on TV, I know it's fairly common to hear coaches tell their players to just run their offense.

When I watch the Lakers or Timberwolves, I'll try to pay attention to see how often they actually run the triangle and maintain spacing.

Regarding the Lakers stats for last night, I didn't see the game, but I've never been a fan of the +/- stat. Here's what I saw looking at the box score:

-- Kobe shot well overall (15/27, 56%). He's shooting a very good 48.6% for the year (the team averages 46.2%).

-- Kobe shot poorly as usual from 3-pt land (1/5). He's shooting only 29.3% for the year -- his shot is too flat to be reliable from distance.

-- Kobe had a season-high 8 turnovers in his best imitation of Monta Ellis and Gilbert Arenas (we have them both on our fantasy team, and they're turnover machines). He's averaging only 3.0 turnovers on the year, which isn't bad.

-- Gasol had only 8 shot attempts. That's way too few. I just don't understand it.

Outside

I thought Kobe had grown up enough to pass out of doubles and use his teamates skills.

Last night not so much. And as a result the other guys are not even getting touches on a lot of plays. It looks like 08 to me...stop Kobe and lock down Gasol and it's over.

If Gasol starts the play with his back to the basket against a good defender he is average. Facing the basket he is deadly. Take that away from him. If Kobe is missing they dont have enough shooters. Fisher hits when it counts but Artest will have to show me. If they dont sign anybody or have one injurry they are toast. Brown and Odom are tough off the bench but thats it. Jordan F is terrible. Sasha nope.

My guess is they have a plan to sign someone else. Gasol and Kobe played 39 min last nite. Artest 45 this is THE NORM. If they keep that up it is going to cost them. Kobe's got more miles on him than a 74 ups truck and Artest aint a kid. Gasol played all summer Fisher is very smart but older. It's odd to me that Jackson chooses to play his studs so many minutes. I think he and all laker fan think Kobe is made of steel. He aint.

Jeb,

I agree with some of your points, but I don't think the stats support your assertion that the key Lakers are playing overly heavy minutes. Here are the key Laker and Celtic player minute per game stats for the year.

35.5 Ray
35.3 Pierce
34.0 Rondo
30.6 KG
27.3 Perkins
20.6 Rasheed

36.9 Kobe
34.8 Gasol
34.7 Artest
33.4 Bynum
30.1 Odom
26.4 Fisher

The Laker numbers are slightly higher overall but not remarkably so.

Outside

Outside.

In the games I have watched not just heavy minutes but weirdly heavy minutes.

The Lakers have had a lot of blowouts. If the game is tight all the best guys play heavy minutes. 17 home games many against mediocre teams.

They are headed out on the road it will be interesting to see what happens.

I dont remember doc playing pp or ticket 42-45 minutes all year. Not one game I saw. It happens with regularity over in Lakes. I check box scores every day and no matter what the average is if it's close as last night check the minutes and they will be high every time.

Jeb

and outside

Great explanation of the triangle...really good stuff. Thanks! That's what makes this place rule.

Outside,

This has been the best explanation of the triangle offense I've ever seen.

I feel like I have a much more complete understanding.

Thanks!

Thanks everyone for the kind words. It's been a learning process for me, too. Putting it into words has helped my understanding a lot.

This even makes me want to watch Minnesota play. I didn't think that would ever happen.

Outside

We all dig your action. You are (to me) one of the brightest most thoughtful posters at the forum and that's saying something.

I always follow the Wolves to watch the ex celtics. I pull strong for them.

Best

Jeb

outside

Kobe 44 minutes in regulation Gasol 42. We go to overtime.

Rasheed got a T for saying "and one", Kobe could follow the official and scream it in his face no problem

Kobe "the hero" Bryant 50 minutes 13 of 28 shooting. Gasol 48 minutes.

every time the game in doubt Bryant to the line.

welcome to the road fakers

jeb65 wrote:Kobe "the hero" Bryant 50 minutes 13 of 28 shooting.

Too many shots. again. not enough touches for Pau again. ugh.

On the bright side, for me at least, Kobe is talking about playing until he's 40.

That's right- 40. He's using guys like Stockton and Kareem as examples.


Maybe that's why Phil is playing him so many minutes- he thinks he's got another 10 years left.



Interview with Kevin Ding from the OC Register.

http://www.ocregister.com/sports/bryant-222740-pla y-thing.html



KB: "I enjoy hearing, 'He's older and who knows how long he can go for.' That does add fuel to it a little bit."

KD: "You have to understand, though, how the world bases its information on what has happened with most everyone else ...

KB: "That has nothing to do with me. I'm not them. Like Michael (Jordan) wasn't supposed to be able to play at the age of 36. Stockton wasn't supposed to be still playing. At the time Kareem (Abdul-Jabbar) was the only guy to be able to play till 40, and they said only big guys can do it – and then John Stockton did it. So it's all in how you take care of your body, and ever since I was young I was very meticulous about taking care of my body and I stayed on it and tried to be healthy. And I think because of that, I feel a lot better now. You run into problems where guys figure it out a little too late, and they try to catch on – and that doesn't work.

KD: "Andrew (Bynum) was just saying to me last month, 'This year, I'm going to start watching what Kobe and Fish (Derek Fisher) do.' "

KB: "Yeah, I've been trying to tell him: You've got to start that right now if you want to have longevity in your career. You've got to pay attention to that now."

KD: "Tim Duncan says his knees hurt all the time."

KB: "That's crazy. What, he's 33? I'm 31. I feel better now than I've felt since I was 26-27."

KD: "That's something. But you must embrace that whole thing on some level, the idea that people can't quite understand you, because you don't want to be the same as everybody else."

KB: "I love it. I love it. It adds fuel to it, man. People measure you by what other players have done and the longevity of their careers and when they started to go on the decline and stuff like that. It adds fuel to the fire."

KD: "So in your own mind, how much longer are you going to play?"

KB: "I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. We'll just keep on going and ride this thing till the wheels fall off."

You can see the inference to be made: Bryant's sun isn't setting as soon as some think, even with this being his 14th NBA season.

He's scoring 29 points per game, and his team is on a nine-game winning streak with the NBA's best record – so Bryant is obviously still getting it done. (Suns coach Alvin Gentry after losing to the Lakers on Sunday night: "We've played the other teams. I think they're the best team by far.")

Physically, Bryant held up for every one of the Lakers' 227 games the past two-plus seasons. You see him hang in the air over Dwyane Wade to let go that last-second shot Friday night – yet it was as much mental to get that unlikely 3-point shot to drop and win the game.

Bryant had to aim further right because he was drifting left – and shoot with deliberate bank to offset the lack of arc. He had to do all that calculating amid the pressure of the moment, turning some parts of his brain on while turning off others.

"Even though it was a bank shot," Phil Jackson marveled, "he shot the ball with touch on it."

The game savvy is a huge reason Bryant could play till he's 40 and stay a star. He's a con man with countless angles to play – guard or wing or post, shoot this way or fade that way, fake with the head and escape with the feet.

He even – and this is perhaps the most amazing thing he has ever done – declined the ball in the post at one point Sunday night. Instead of continuously and vigorously calling for it, Bryant actually gestured while covered by a double-team blanket for teammate Pau Gasol to do the right thing and swing the ball away. (Gasol did reverse the ball, Bynum wound up with it in the other post, he drew the double team and passed to Fisher for the open 3-pointer. Thanks, Kobe.)

The thing with Bryant that has driven Jackson and Tex Winter crazy in the past is that they knew Bryant knew the "right" thing, but he would only selectively do it (more often in the postseason). The fact that Bryant's game has grown so much over the years is a testament to his willful experimentation for different challenges, but more and more often now he can "settle" for the easiest, most efficient play for himself and teammates.

It's why Bryant just needs to make sure his body doesn't betray him. For the first time this season, he wore a small sleeve over his right knee Sunday night. He had surgery on that knee in 2003 and '06 and has had periodic tendinitis.

But he also has medical or rehab specialists come to his house after games to get extended treatment instead of waiting till tomorrow or blowing it off entirely. Looking for yet another edge in body work, Bryant has started up a new mysterious training regimen at Staples Center after the past two Sunday night games.

There are 42,120 NBA minutes on his odometer. Bryant can drive with his eyes closed by now.

He pumps his own fuel, too.

Which leaves, as he says, just the wheels. And they aren't falling off for a long, long time.

jeb65 wrote:Watchin the Lakes play the Bulls and trust me the "triangle" is right out the window when it's close. Kobe has taken their last 4 shots. It's get the ball to Kobe and let him hog it.

Same as it ever was. Same in the Jordan days in Chicago.

It's either pick and roll with Gasol or spread the floor and let Kobe attack.

BUt why would you want i totherwise ? Either the other team is defending one of the best players of all time with one defender, or they double- leaving someone wide open.

I'd rather have KB with someone on him or another player getting a wide open look than getting a shot out of the triangle under that circumstance.

Now whether Kobe makes the correct pass when doubled is a whole different kettle of fish and a source of semi-regular frustration for me.

But all in all, in crunch time, there's no one I'd rather have on my team.

I agree with babyskyhook.

There is no point in following a system just out of principle. When it comes down to crunchtime you will do whatever will give you the best dividends, be it "triangle" or iso.

beat wrote:jeb

Funny thing if it were all about Kobe look at the +- stat.

Kobe played 39 minutes and while out there the Lakers allowed 3 more points than they scored.
yet they won by 11.

go figure.

Kobe was hogging the ball and they almost lost b/c of it. It looked like a bad rerun of Game 1 vs the Cs in the '08 Finals. They let a bad Bulls team hang around and stay in the game.

Kobe got really hot in the first quarter and then the other guys barely saw any touches. They never got into a rythymn b/c they weren't seeing the ball. Their defensive energy also drops b/c they don't feel like they're in the flow of the game and aren't getting touches.

Kobe is his own (and the Lakers) worst enemy when he starts out really hot like that. It takes the rest of the guys out of the game, and they frequently lose when he shoots the ball that much.

It wasn't a conincidince that the Lakers finally took a decent-sized lead when Kobe was on the bench to start the 4th. That's when they made their run.

I hope this was a two game abberation. The way the've played the last two games has been just plain dumb. NO getting it into the bigs to take advantage of mismatches, and Kobe jacking 3x as many shots as Pau or BYnum,. Not a recipe for success in any way shape or form.

Maybe Kobe heard some of the talk radio chatter in LA about Pau being the real MVP of the team and felt a need to reassert himself.

Whatever the case, I hope this type of play ends soon because they won't beat Orlando or Boston (or even Denver) if Kobe is taking 3x as many shots as Pau in the playoffs.

Bad basketball and bad to watch.

jeb65 wrote:I thought Kobe had grown up enough to pass out of doubles and use his teamates skills.

Last night not so much. And as a result the other guys are not even getting touches on a lot of plays. It looks like 08 to me...stop Kobe and lock down Gasol and it's over.

If Gasol starts the play with his back to the basket against a good defender he is average. Facing the basket he is deadly. Take that away from him. If Kobe is missing they dont have enough shooters. Fisher hits when it counts but Artest will have to show me. If they dont sign anybody or have one injurry they are toast. Brown and Odom are tough off the bench but thats it. Jordan F is terrible. Sasha nope.

My guess is they have a plan to sign someone else. Gasol and Kobe played 39 min last nite. Artest 45 this is THE NORM. If they keep that up it is going to cost them. Kobe's got more miles on him than a 74 ups truck and Artest aint a kid. Gasol played all summer Fisher is very smart but older. It's odd to me that Jackson chooses to play his studs so many minutes. I think he and all laker fan think Kobe is made of steel. He aint.

Couldn't agree with you more buddy. JUst posted some similar thoughts. Should have read through the whole thread first I guess.

You are right about the two deep bench. And I hope you're right about them getting someone else b/c they Farmar has got to go. And you know how I feel about Sasha.


And yes, I also find it weird the way Phil has piled the minutes onto Kobe, Pau and Artest. It's December- not may. There have been some games where it almost seems like he's punishing them or trying to send them a message. I don't get it.

jeb65 wrote:every time the game in doubt Bryant to the line.

I bet you loved the travel-no, charge-no, +1- yes! call.

Of course- if the Bucks had made their FTs, none of that matters.

Bogut missed his +1 at end of reg and Hannibal Lecter missed two that would have iced the game in OT.

Young team shaky in crunch time.

Lakers loaf their way through another December game that they were not excited about.

Good thing these games don't mean anything other than adding towards homecourt.

Cause the Lakers have been pulling more magic out of their asses lately than Seigfried and Roy were in their heyday.

Sky

I was hopin you'd come around and read those post I did. I stand by em. Phil is lookin his age. It's pride. Otherwise it makes no sense. Respectfully Kobe is hogging the ball. He just is. Pau himself said "he needs more touches" being a gamer he is getting about 2o rebounds a game ...but it's a damn fool that has a weapon like that and dont use it. Whether it's Jackson or Kobe. You guys aint at home any more and Phil is going to have to let his dance with greatness slide and rest his starters (specialy Pau and Kobe who had 50 and 46 minutes tonight) or the LA Lakers WILL NOT repeat as champions.

I doubt they repeat as they stand going against a team as deep and balanced as the Celtics if Phil STARTS coaching.

Yall's bench is terrible. Terrible. And I have watched about 7 games.

Odom's numbers lately have been bad. He's rebounding but that's all. Brown remains an under utilized stud. I dont get it. I really dont.

You guys dont have enough shooters. There is very little shooting outside of Kobe on your starting 5. Fisher hit those shots against Orlando dog but if he is your shooting answer that aint good.

Any way it is early but I call em how I see em. As I said to my boys in cali during the 08 finals 5 beats two and 5 def beats 1.

jeb65 wrote:welcome to the road fakers

Fakers ?

Is that you Jeb ?

you eat some bad food tonight ? You sound uncharacteristically grumpy.



The Lakers are not pretty on the road b/c they frankly don't play as hard as the Cs do on a night-in night-out basis. Yes the Cs have let-down games, but they seem far less frequent than the Lakers "we'll just coast through this one and get a win. Don't want to over-exert ourselves."

It frustrates me, but after seeing it for years, I know it's who they are.

I mean they did go 29-12 last year on the road (best in the league), so it's not like they don't know how to deal with the road. THey sure make it interesting though. A lot more interesting than I would like.

Get used to seeing a lot of games like these last two nights, where they pull it out of thin air (or somewhere else), along with some seemingly jaw-dropping losses. (Last year they lost at Indy, Charlottle and Sacto among others.) It's who they are.

Sky

That WAS a bit grumpy! My bad. I get tired of the Hollingers of the world trying to sell shoes. I think the Lakers are brutal. But they aint the only ones. The nba is very tough this year. All the sportscenter posturing wears me down.