The injuries keep mounting (Lakers)

Kobe is now out 6 weeks with an injured knee.
Nash is at least another month away from coming back.
Farmar's timetable was pushed back.
No timetable for Steve Blake's return.

Well, Jodie Meeks and Xavier Henry, welcome to the pg role...

How long until they turn on the ping pong ball machine?
Welcome to the lottery Lakers.

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/10167684/kobe-bryant-los-angeles-lakers-likely-six-weeks-injured-knee

Kobe came back too soon. Sorry to hear of his latest injury, but he only has his EGO to blame.

mrkleen09 wrote:Kobe came back too soon.  Sorry to hear of his latest injury, but he only has his EGO to blame.

You are quite un-informed.
Kobe was injured during a play during their last game.

I guess you know better than the Lakers doctors when Kobe should have returned.
Sheesh.....same old......

I am uninformed?  LOL

Since he has come back, he has NOT looked good.  He is not moving as fluidly as he did in the past (even last year) and nearly every time a player is injured a second time in such a short period of time - it is down to them overcompensating for their injury by putting extra stress on other parts of the body. 4 games in 5 nights is TOO MUCH for a healthy 35 year old - let alone someone who is coming back from an injury.

Once again, this is all down to Kobe's EGO and him needing to justify his recent payday.  And the only thing worse than paying a 35 year old player with 60k minutes on his wheels 50 Million dollars, is paying him 50 million to sit on the sidelines in street clothes.

Lakers general manager Mitch Kupchak said at the time that the team could have waited a month or six weeks to see a bit more of Bryant on the court before it made its offer, but he believed he had seen enough of Bryant in practice to be convinced. That $48.5 million figure would certainly look a lot different had Kupchak and the Lakers brass indeed waited it out a little longer.  Bet they wish they did.

mrkleen09 wrote:I am uninformed?  LOL

Since he has come back, he has NOT looked good.  He is not moving as fluidly as he did in the past (even last year) and nearly every time a player is injured a second time in such a short period of time - it is down to them overcompensating for their injury by putting extra stress on other parts of the body.  4 games in 5 nights is TOO MUCH for a healthy 35 year old - let alone someone who is coming back from an injury.

Once again, this is all down to Kobe's EGO and him needing to justify his recent payday.  And the only thing worse than paying a 35 year old player with 60k minutes on his wheels 50 Million dollars, is paying him 50 million to sit on the sidelines in street clothes.

Lakers general manager Mitch Kupchak said at the time that the team could have waited a month or six weeks to see a bit more of Bryant on the court before it made its offer, but he believed he had seen enough of Bryant in practice to be convinced. That $48.5 million figure would certainly look a lot different had Kupchak and the Lakers brass indeed waited it out a little longer.  Bet they wish they did.

Yes, you are uninformed as usual.
Kobe's new injury had nothing to do with his Achilles injury.
Maybe you should find out how he was injured...

This was Kobe's training camp.
He has also never played with the majority of the players he is on the court with.
He was also mostly playing pg which was not ideal until he got into game shape.

What does this have to do with his new contract?
You always keep changing the argument with every post you make.

If this was Paul Pierce last year, you would have praised him for being a warrior and leading his team...

I SAW how he was injured....so you can stop with the BS comments, as if you are the only one who can see Lakers games.

He played in too many games in a row for someone coming off an injury.  He was clearly favoring his injured leg and this is how people usually get hurt a second time.  Coming back too soon and playing too often, too hard before they have their game fitness.

I can raise you the advice of some biased team doctor who has every incentive to claim the injury is unrelated - and raise you 15 articles from NBA experts, who feel as I do - that he came back too soon.  Elite athletes often have to be protected from themselves (see Doc and how he handled KG a few years ago), clearly the Lakers feel Kobe is invincible (32 / 32 / 32) in 3 games in 4 nights is TOO MUCH for a recovering player to endure.

As for the contract being a different subject - that is joke. The Lakers should have never extended him until they saw the product back on the court. Loyalty is great, stupidity isnt. The Lakers overpaid for an aging former star, to show him some sort of lifetime respect, but that deal has doomed them to years of mediocrity.  Enjoy.

http://www.clipsnation.com/2013/11/26/5148048/kobe-bryants-contract-extension-a-great-deal-for-the-lakers

Couple of highlights:

As you no doubt know already, the other Los Angeles NBA team gave a contract extension to a certain Kobe Bryant yesterday; an extension worth over $48M that will ensure that Bryant remains the highest paid NBA player (if only the third best NBA player in LA) for two more seasons after this one. And it was absolutely the correct decision.

Look, it's obviously a terrible contract on its own merits. Kobe is 35 years old and has yet to return from a ruptured Achilles tendon -- an injury that almost always exacts a severe toll on performance. To pay $25M to a post injury 37 year old is crazy -- certainly no one else was going to offer him that, so the Lakers didn't have to. Yes, it's a pay cut from his current $30M salary; but that's what aging superstars do -- they take pay cuts. Usually pay cuts that don't leave them as the highest paid player in the league. Kobe's position on this contract seems to have been "I'm willing to make less than me, but not less than anybody else."

Contrast Kobe's extension with Tim Duncan's last contract. In July 2012, Duncan re-signed with the Spurs, the only team he's ever known, for three years and $30M, at the age of 36. Bryant's deal, worth $48M for two seasons, will also take effect when he is 36. Duncan has four rings and two league MVP awards. Bryant has five rings and one MVP award. What's the difference? About $14M per year, and a whole lot of ego.

In ESPN's Daily Dime, to the question "What matters most to Kobe?", Chris Broussard answered "Definitely winning titles" while Ramona Shelburne said "He'd do anything to chase [a sixth ring]." But let's face it, those statements are demonstrably false. Accepting a Duncanian contract would have literally freed up enough additional money for the Lakers to make a max offer to a restricted free agent like Eric Bledsoe, in addition to the max contract slot they are targeting towards Carmelo Anthony (or whomever) this summer. Given that an additional great player on the roster would clearly be very useful in this theoretical ring pursuit, we know for certain that something is more important to Kobe.

Can Bryant actually catch former Laker Kareem Abdul Jabbar for the top spot on the all time scoring list? He'd have to play in 220 games while averaging close to 31 points to do so by the end of this extension -- but if he's getting close and still able to play at all, you can bet he'll sign a one year deal at age 38 to continue the pursuit. A part of me even thinks that we could see a version of 2006 Kobe, jacking 25 or more shots a night and scoring over 30 a game, chasing that record before the end of this extension, putting up terrible efficiency numbers on a terrible team, and loving every minute of it

Whether this contract helps the Lakers compete for a title isn't really the question -- it clearly doesn't. Of course, Kobe could have had both, pursued the individual records AND helped the Lakers build their team, by taking less money. But he didn't want to do that, and the Lakers would have been wrong to play hard ball with him. Wrong because of what he's meant to the franchise, and wrong from the standpoint of their business. The Kobe Bryant farewell tour is going to be a massive draw for as long as he can play, and the Lakers will reap the rewards -- everywhere but the win column.

mrkleen09 wrote:I SAW how he was injured....so you can stop with the BS comments, as if you are the only one who can see Lakers games.

He played in too many games in a row for someone coming off an injury.  He was clearly favoring his injured leg and this is how people usually get hurt a second time.  Coming back too soon and playing too often, too hard before they have their game fitness.

I can raise you the advice of some biased team doctor who has every incentive to claim the injury is unrelated - and raise you 15 articles from NBA experts, who feel as I do - that he came back too soon.  Elite athletes often have to be protected from themselves (see Doc and how he handled KG a few years ago), clearly the Lakers feel Kobe is invincible (32 / 32 / 32) in 3 games in 4 nights is TOO MUCH for a recovering player to endure.

As for the contract being a different subject - that is joke.  The Lakers should have never extended him until they saw the product back on the court. Loyalty is great, stupidity isnt.  The Lakers overpaid for an aging former star, to show him some sort of lifetime respect, but that deal has doomed them to years of mediocrity.  Enjoy.

You continue to make stuff up to fit your Lakers Hatred Agenda.
Your ignorance about injuries is comical.
Did Derrick Rose new injury related to his old injury?
No, just as Kobe wasn't. Kobe was favoring his leg after the injury and not before...
Kobe wanted to come back right after the season started and they all agreed to give him more time, which they did.
I guess we should start calling you Dr. Kleen....

The Lakers have more than enough cash coming in each year, I don't think they are worried about Kobe's new contract.
I guess you are familiar with mediocrity...

Yeah, everyone is against the Lakers TJ....LOL.

17 banners from a team that stayed in ONE city. And a bunch of other team that just win championships. Mediocrity my ass.

I'll never like Kobe, but I hate to see any basketball player hurt.  The Lakers' injury situation is reminiscent to those of the Celtics a couple of years ago.  We well remember how the Celts struggled with continuity in the quest for chemistry in the face of so many injuries.  Hard to believe that Pau Gasol, maligned so often in recent years, is the best known name of the half dozen Lakers who have played in every game; and he's near the top on the team in terms of MPG too.

Sam

kleen don't waste your time, the guy your responding to only sees things his way, last year we all saw right when Kobe snapped his Achilles that he was playing way too many minutes, a bunch of us all saw that, but no we were all wrong cause he knows best.....

tj I don't need a response from you, just warning mr kleen

Every minute you play there is obviously a risk of getting injured and it was obviously "too many" in hindsight since he got injured.

When knees or such get injured while coming back from a different injury it can of course be a factor that people are compensating from previous injury but it is impossible to know how much of a factor that is if any. He got injured so one looks for reasons, if he doesnt get injured there is no looking.

Either way it is unfortunate but maybe for the better for the Lakers? Lose enough games to get better talent for next season when Kobe, hopefully, will be healthy.

So lets all be friends. Could the achilles tendon be a factor in the new injury? Absolutely, either by someway adding additional wear and tear to where it in the end was weaker (and then more affected by the twisting), can one say it was a definitely because of the previous injury? No.

mrkleen09 wrote:Yeah, everyone is against the Lakers TJ....LOL.

17 banners from a team that stayed in ONE city.  And a bunch of other team that just win championships.  Mediocrity my ass.

We are talking the Celtics here, not the Bruins or Pats or Red Sox.
Yes, for the last 25+ years the Celtics have been a mediocre organization.
Yes, I do realize they have the most championships over the last 70 years.

cowens/oldschool wrote:kleen don't waste your time, the guy your responding to is real thick headed and only sees things his way, last year we all saw right when Kobe snapped his Achilles that he was playing way too many minutes, a bunch of us all saw that, but no we were all wrong cause he knows best.....

Yes, some closed-minded Celtics fans did see it that way last year with Kobe.
Kobe has had very few serious injuries in his life.
Sometimes injuries just happen.
If anyone plays a physically demanding sport enough times, the odds are they will suffer some type of injury.
Ask Derrick Rose if his new injury is related to his last one.
Kobe hyper extended his knee in the middle of a play in the Lakers last game.

Kobe may not have always been a great person (I don't really know what happened in the Colorado hotel room) but he's always been a great player who deserves our respect and sympathy, Laker or not.

I'd just like to issue a reminder that this is supposed to be a convivial board.  That doesn't mean we can't disagree on issues, and there's certainly plenty of that.  But it does mean that we shouldn't let our disagreements become personal.  Just in case there's any misunderstanding about what "becoming personal" means, it means attacking, baiting, or insulting the individual poster as compared with the individual's thoughts.

Almost every time I find it appropriate to issue one of these reminders, I get private messages or emails explaining how it's the other poster's fault.  There's really no need for that.  I think I can figure things like that out.  However, if there's any way I can help with clarification or questions, I'm always available via Private Message or email (SlipSamCelt@aol.com).

These regulations apply to posters communicating with other posters publicly via the board.  The use of the Private Message function can often work things out without their becoming a public confrontation.  And the regulations are more lax when it comes to criticizing non-members of the board—especially members of the media like my buddy John Hollinger.  Even then, we're all on our own in terms of risking some form of slander repercussions.

Thanks for your help in keeping the conviviality in Sam's Celtics Forum.

Sam

It's hard to KNOW why a player gets injured.  Andrew Bynum pinballed from one injury to another to another and every Laker fan I know swore that there was nothing structurally wrong (per Laker doctors) with his knees, it was just bad luck/falls/coincidence.  I'm not going to go back through the threads and look, but I wouldn't be surprised if TJ was one of them.  I would, once again, like to point out the lesson that Celtic fans have learned over the years with KG's injuries, the team doesn't owe us the truth (and, if they do, don't count on getting it).

One things we do know about injuries is that people will subconsciously favor the injured part.  If you have a weak right side, you will overwork your left side to compensate.  This produces a lot of strain on the healthy part that's being called on to, literally, carry more than its weight.  Obviously, worcester is a much, much better source of info on this than I, but I've seen it happen so many times in athletes and just averages joes and janes.

We don't know if Kobe's injury came from overcompensating like that.  Our sub-conscious is a tricky thing.  We don't know if Kobe's indomitable conscious will demanded a faster return than he should have done.  

What we do know is that Kobe is 35 years old and these things start to happen to pro athletes at that age.  We saw it with KG, Ray Allen and his ankles, Paul Pierce and his various and assorted dings that he would have shrugged off years earlier.  What we also know is that Kobe has played an absolute ton of minutes (I'll bet, if you add up regular season and playoffs he has more minutes on his body than any other active player) and that every year, for the past few years, he has had something.  His finger, his ankle, tendonitis in his shooting elbow, his knees with no cartilage, something.  To point the finger of blame at whether he came back to soon or the number of minutes he played after coming back from this surgery ignores the trend line of his career which is that he's at the age where "s--t just happens" and has been happening for the past few years.

Kobe's career has been a spectacle of "mind over matter".  He has the strongest mind in the NBA but that doesn't mean Father Time hasn't forgotten about his body.

I'd like to see Kobe come back strong.  He deserves a strong exit.

On the other hand, being a well known critic of Dr. Buss' son, I think signing Kobe to a 2 year, $50M contract before he ever showed he had/could come back from one of the most devastating injuries any athlete can have, might be the final straw that pushes him out the door and puts Jeannie and Phil in the catbird seat. I know it was described as a "Buss family decision" but the Buss Trust is composed of 6 children, only 2 of whom are involved with Laker decisions (Jeannie and Jim) and Jeannie handles the business end and Jim handles the basketball side. Considering that Phil had been telling Kobe years back that he needed to play fewer minutes, like 30mpg, my gut is that the input from Jeannie's side (which would include Phil) would not have been "oh sure, give him the big bucks and he'll carry us for 2 more years".

But I don't KNOW this either.


bob


.

bob,

I would like to make one point about Bynum's knee injuries.
He has knee problems because he had knee injuries.
Before the injuries, his knees were fine.
His first injury was from knee to knee contact.
Does he heal well, no?
He will never be the same player again. Not even close. He recently said he doesn't think he will ever regain his athleticism.

Yes, Kobe has played a lot of minutes.
John Stockton played a lot of minutes and never had an injury.
Injuries are so random and unpredictable.
Steve Nash had an excellent year in Phoenix two years ago.
He got stepped on and broke a boke in his leg in game 2 of his Lakers career and has not and will never be the same. I think his career is over.

To claim that anyone knows why players get injured is just silly.
Kobe's injuries happen to kids in HS and college.
They happened to Kobe in his 17th and 18th seasons in the NBA.
As for his contract, if Kobe never plays another game, the Lakers would probably waive him and spread his $48m contract over the next 5 seasons.
I expect Kobe to come back and score 20ppg next season.
I don't care about his stats this year. This is a transition year for him and the Lakers.
The Lakers will probably trade off any pieces they can and wait for the lottery, draft and free agency.

The medical diagnosis for Kobe is a fractured tibia in his left knee.

Broken bones are generally considered to be better than a ligament, tendon or cartilage problem, but broken bones in joints are worse than a break in the middle of the bone.

Let's hope it is a stress fracture type of break and not a bone chip.  If it's a chip, they might have to do surgery to re-attach it and that would complicate recovery.

Calling Doctor Worcester, Doctor Heckler, Doctor Worcester!



bob


.

bob Lakers don't age, minutes don't matter to any body part, theres no such thing as wear and tear.....got it? the Laker trainers know best, thats why Kobe never gets injured, except last year was a fluke cause injuries happen, but never from an older player.

I think we all should know that both of Kobe's injuries were Mike D'Antoni's fault...
Well, some of it was Jimmy Buss' fault because he signed Kobe to the extension and Kobe had to feel like he was earning his large salary.

UGH!!!

People on this great forum (no sarcasm) know Kobe and why he got injured better than Kobe himself and the Lakers medical staff (sarcasm).

cowens/oldschool wrote:bob Lakers don't age, minutes don't matter to any body part, theres no such thing as wear and tear.....got it? the Laker trainers know best, thats why Kobe never gets injured, except last year was a fluke cause injuries happen, but never from an older player.

cow,

Remember all the injuries to the 3 Amigos?  Remember how KG was expected back "next week", then it was the week after that and then the week after that?

Remember Ray's ankles?  They just needed a little rest, and then a little more rest and then more rest and then we found out he had chips floating in his ankles? Do you think they didn't know he had bone chips in his ankles all along?

We've had our share of BS about our aging stars tossed in our faces repeatedly too.  These were popular players who were key to our success (and fan turnout) and so they told us what they wanted us to hear.  Furthermore, they published what they wanted opponents to hear (e.g. KG's coming back and will be ready to play you, so prepare for him and not for a KG-less Celtics).

If I followed the Indy press I'll bet Pacer fans have been fed endless lines about how Danny Grainger's return is just around the corner.  Brandon Roy was mending, mending, mending until it came out that he had no cartilage left in his knees and he was basically done.  Don't you think Portland fans heard a non-stop campaign about how Oden's last surgery was going to fix his problems?

The Lakers are far, far, far from the only ones who do this and that's because the other 29 teams in the league are in the exact same business as the Lakers, the business of generating enthusiasm in their fan base and in the league as a whole.  There's no doubt Laker fans have been drooling over the return of Kobe and are disappointed in the recent developments.  It was in the Lakers' interest, as a business, to stoke the anticipation of his return, both from the achilles as well as now from his tibia break just as it was for the Celtics to keep us hanging on to the edge of our seats over the return of our heroes.

It's the nature of the biz and they all, including the Boston Celtics, do it.


bob


.

Now that my day is winding down from treating cases of jet lag, tennis elbow, spinal stenosis with referred leg pain, and yes, arthritic knees, I have a chance to comment on this Kobe banter, but first I need to address TJ's assertion that the Celtics have been a mediocre team since 1988.

First off, the Celts were clearly not mediocre from the fall of 1988 thru the Spring of 1993.
W-L %
88-89: .512
89-90: .634
90-91: .683
91-92: .622
92-93: .585

Then came the dark years. Eight straight losing seasons. Six under ML Carr and Rick Pitino in which their record was 150-262.

In the 12 seasons since 2001-2002 the Celts have performed admirably, with winning records in 9 of those 12 seasons and two trips to the Finals.

From 1988-2013 the Celts played in 2001 games with a w-l % of 51.72%. Take away the ML Carr/Pitino years and the w-l % is 55.6%. In the entire history of the Celts, the w-l% is 59.4%.

Thus, partisan views aside, it's unfair and inaccurate to characterize the Celts of the past 25 years as a mediocre team, especially when one considers these last 12 years and the first five of that time period. Let's see how the next five years play out, Lakers fans.

Regarding Kobe's injuries, the more one plays the greater the chance for injury. That is a simple fact of probability theory. The more times down a ski slope, the greater the chance of a ski injury. The more miles driving, the more chance for an auto accident. Any actuarial table can predict that greater activity leads to greater chance of injury.

Now a separate conversation is "Does prolonged activity weaken anatomy and physiology?" Simple answer - yes, except when it comes to sex.

When talking about the skeletal structure, repeated impact gets more calcium to precipitate out of the blood, actually strengthening the bones; however, this can also lead to hypercalcification which shows up as spurring and other unwanted deposits in the joints or edges of the bones and especially the heels (Time wounds all heels).

Tendons get frayed from overuse, ligaments get stretched. None of this bodes well for continued play. Baseball managers and trainers became aware of this LONG ago, which is why they have assiduously limited pitch counts. Numerous great pitchers from long ago who pitched MANY complete games did not pitch long into their thirties. Despite missing three years in the AL due to wartime service, Bob Feller had limited pitching after age 31. Sandy Koufax was another casualty of too many innings. Lefty Grove too. The list goes on. Very few major league pitchers survived on active rosters into their mid-thirties prior to the 1980's. Since limiting pitch counts, there are many who pitch into their late thirties and even 40's.

Repeated pounding on hardwood floors is also very tough on the bones and connective tissues of the feet, especially for big men in the NBA who often have foot injuries. Larry Bird's nickname for Bill Walton in the locker room was "Dr. Scholl."

I'm not an expert basketball analyst, so I defer to the judgment of Phil Jackson, who often battled Kobe about minutes played. PJ would worry about Kobe playing too many minutes. I think his concerns have been justified by Kobe's recent spate of injuries.