LeBron: I'm Going To Be On The NBA's Mt. Rushmore

Yeah, Shaq was a force of nature during LA's three-peat run. Watching him you could see him averaging 50 a game like Wilt had he been born 30 years earlier.

Bird may have Leborn supplant him when all is said and done but no one can ever outdo Bird in sheer toughness.

His last three years he played in constant pain. I've heard Bird say he should have retired after he injured his back but I'm glad he didn't. His display of guts was inspiring to behold.

Dboss, I've looked through this thread at least four times, and I can no longer find the post about older fans being band wagon jumpers. When I read your post, I was actually curious as to what band wagon we old guys were accused of jumping on. I can't speak for anyone else; but I was actually under the impression that I was there well before the Celtics became the CELTICS and I never once jumped off that bandwagon as others joined me over the years. Anyway, I guess that post (or that part of a post) was removed for some reason. If it's still there and you can direct me to it, I'd appreciate it.

I do get a laugh out of any comparison of Phil Jackson as a winner with Bill Russell as a winner. Phil invariably was gifted with excellent players; and, if that wasn't going to be the case, he invariably quit. Unlike Phil, Russ wasn't made a gift of the collosus around him; he was the the final piece in what made it a colossus. Phil tried hard to coach his gift into a winning season-but he was one separation removed from actually making it happen, and he was successful in his quest about half the time. It can be argued that Russ absolutely insisted on winning and being a major element (if not the major element) in physically forcing it to happen 85% of the time.

There was no comparability in their roles, little comparability in their degree of personal influence on making wins happen, and definitely no comparability in their success rates in terms of the ultimate determination of who wins and who loses.

It is to laugh!

Sam

I am very disappointed in LeBron for not naming B. Russ in the top players discussion. As a man that plays the game and aspires to be great, he ought to know who the best truly was/is. As expected, despite his talents, he is still pretentious.

What Russell (and his team) accomplished will likely never happen again in any sport. I am also disappointed in younger basketball fans that don't know much about players before MJ. I started watching basketball in the early 90s, and while MJ was the best player I ever saw play, that does not necessarily mean I should ever think he was the best ever.

LeBron is going to carve out his own place in history, but there are plenty of players that actually revolutionized the very game he's playing.




KJ

KJ,

I've been searching for the right term to describe how I feel about Lebron. I believe you've hit on it: "pretentious." Although "arrogant" would be a close second. For me, a big part of enjoying basketball is being able to respect those who play it. I understand that the most important thing in the minds of most people is how they play; and I take great pride in being a multi-decade devotee of that aspect of sports. But I seem to form an attachment even to opponents whom I respect. It sort of adds a dimension to my enjoyment of the game—especially as I feel the game deteriorating over time.

Players like Wilt, West, Baylor, Dr. J., Kareem, Magic, Duncan, and many, many others have been players I could respect—just as Joe DiMaggio, Tommy Henrich, Rizzuto, Mantle, Kaline, Frank Robinson, Yogi, Brooks Robinson, Bernie Williams and Jeter comprise just a tiny sample of the many Red Sox' AL foes I could respect. I never saw him play, but I vividly recall staying awake throughout a 1948 night, monitoring radio news about the deteriorating health of The Babe (yup, the Red Sox' Curse of the Bambino guy) and blubbering when he died in the middle of the night.

When my team played those kinds of guys, I rooted like crazy for them to lose; but, in the long run, the respect was there. Lame Beer, Michael Jordan, the Worm, and definitely "Mister Me" James—not so much.

In the span of 48 hours, Lebomb has announced that he's one of the four greatest NBA players of all-time (as if he couldn't stand the fact that the media don't slobber over him enough); Lebron would win the slam dunk contest if he chose to enter; and Kevin Durant won't feel the pressure of winning a championship until Lebron retires. It's not the content of his pretentiousness that bothers me because I can't believe I'd ever care about anything that really matters to him. It's the fact and extent of his pretentiousness.

Sam

cowens/oldschool wrote:Physically, attribute wise Lebron is head and shoulders above all the rest, with Dr J and Tracy McGrady as the forbearers before Lebron, with Nique and Vince Carter somewhere close in there too. Lebron I would say is better than all of them, athletically and even a harder driver and better handle, better vision. However right now as great as his physicality and skill is, he still hasn't surpassed Larry or Michael yet.

Larry still had a better stroke and instincts and a better clutch gene over Lebron, and overall better skill. With all the great leaping and athleticism how come Lebron has never avg over 10 rebounds per game? Lebron just got a semblance of a post up game last year, Bird had a post up game from the time he entered the league. Both are great passers, Bird had more toughness, remember how many 20 plus rebound games Bird would have in big games? never seen Lebron do that and Lebron physically with his strength and hops, you would think he could do it.

Michael was more relentless attacking the basket as a younger version, and he could hang and contort on the fly better than Bron as a younger version IMHO. As great as the young version was the mature version that killed you with the jumper and all around play, defense, trusting his teamates, taking over at crunch time was the better player, the better version of Jordan. He still had the athleticism, but harnessed it, conserving his energy to take over at winning time...he always took control, made all the big plays in a way Lebron still hasn't come close to.

Both those 2 players I still put ahead of Lebron right now, but physically hes the most gifted that I ever saw. Lebron is the greatest specimen, the other 2 are better basketball players.

LeBron is never going to average 10 rebounds per game like Larry did because about 1/2 of each game he is his teams point guard. If LeBron played the 3 or 4 like Bird did, his rebounds would significantly increase.

Sloopjohnb wrote:"You know when I watch Lebron James, a lot of times I think he's just out there teasing with the teams and you know he's getting other people involved early. Now he can make shots. He's just awesome to watch. He's one guy in the league that I think will probably be better than all of us when it's all said and done."

--Larry Bird


Bird's my favorite player ever but I'm afraid I have to agree with him.

Maybe this was a hyperbole too...???

tjmakz wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:Physically, attribute wise Lebron is head and shoulders above all the rest, with Dr J and Tracy McGrady as the forbearers before Lebron, with Nique and Vince Carter somewhere close in there too. Lebron I would say is better than all of them, athletically and even a harder driver and better handle, better vision. However right now as great as his physicality and skill is, he still hasn't surpassed Larry or Michael yet.

Larry still had a better stroke and instincts and a better clutch gene over Lebron, and overall better skill. With all the great leaping and athleticism how come Lebron has never avg over 10 rebounds per game? Lebron just got a semblance of a post up game last year, Bird had a post up game from the time he entered the league. Both are great passers, Bird had more toughness, remember how many 20 plus rebound games Bird would have in big games? never seen Lebron do that and Lebron physically with his strength and hops, you would think he could do it.

Michael was more relentless attacking the basket as a younger version, and he could hang and contort on the fly better than Bron as a younger version IMHO. As great as the young version was the mature version that killed you with the jumper and all around play, defense, trusting his teamates, taking over at crunch time was the better player, the better version of Jordan. He still had the athleticism, but harnessed it, conserving his energy to take over at winning time...he always took control, made all the big plays in a way Lebron still hasn't come close to.

Both those 2 players I still put ahead of Lebron right now, but physically hes the most gifted that I ever saw. Lebron is the greatest specimen, the other 2 are better basketball players.

LeBron is never going to average 10 rebounds per game like Larry did because about 1/2 of each game he is his teams point guard. If LeBron played the 3 or 4 like Bird did, his rebounds would significantly increase.

like Bird was never the point man for his teams offense or hung on the perimeter to spread the floor for Parish and McHale? Lebron is playing close to the basket with his new found post up game and Battier really has no other shot except the 3 ball.

Sloopjohnb wrote:Yeah, Shaq was a force of nature during LA's three-peat run.  Watching him you could see him averaging 50 a game like Wilt had he been born 30 years earlier.

Bird may have Leborn supplant him when all is said and done but no one can ever outdo Bird in sheer toughness.

His last three years he played in constant pain.  I've heard Bird say he should have retired after he injured his back but I'm glad he didn't.  His display of guts was inspiring to behold.

the players I named before could be regarded as the best in overall complete game, but when it comes to dominance in the pure physicality of the game....its got to be Shaq, who was a force of nature and surprisingly agile in his time.

my alltime starting 5

F Lebron James
F Larry Bird
C Shaquille O'Neal
G Michael Jordan
G Magic Johnson

I could have went with Bird and Duncan as my forwards, but wanted Lebron on the wing for alley opps on the break from Magic and Bird. Almost went with a smaller traditional PG, but with Jordan and Lebron there, they could handle the speedster for Magic if need be.

Sloopjohnb wrote:Yeah, Shaq was a force of nature during LA's three-peat run.  Watching him you could see him averaging 50 a game like Wilt had he been born 30 years earlier.

Bird may have Leborn supplant him when all is said and done but no one can ever outdo Bird in sheer toughness.

His last three years he played in constant pain.  I've heard Bird say he should have retired after he injured his back but I'm glad he didn't.  His display of guts was inspiring to behold.

one of my favorite Bird games, he had so so many hard to pick the best, was the Pacer final playoff game in 91, Bird coming back after falling hard right on his face....what drama, what toughness!!! you just knew he was coming through.

Hey now this thread is taking a direction I like. My all time starting team is:

Bob Cousy at point guard.
Larry Bird at the off guard.
Bill Walton at center.
Bill Russell at one forward.
Dave Cowens at the other forward.

Gee, all happen to be Celtics..... Well, I'm not taking off my green tinted glasses.   

"one of my favorite Bird games, he had so so many hard to pick the best, was the Pacer final playoff game in 91, Bird coming back after falling hard right on his face....what drama, what toughness!!! you just knew he was coming through."

That's the game that comes first to me for post back injury Bird.  Back so bad that he had to be put in traction after games and had to lie on his stomach while on the sidelines.  He then falls and bangs his head on the floor and looks like he was actually unconscious.

Pit stop in the locker room and he comes back late 3rd quarter to lead the team to a clinching game win, including stripping Chuck Person on a drive to preserve the victory.  You could read Bird's lips while he held the ball and glared at Person.

How about a list of the greatest trash talkers?

bobc33 wrote:Hey now this thread is taking a direction I like.  My all time starting team is:

Bob Cousy at point guard.
Larry Bird at the off guard.
Bill Walton at center.
Bill Russell at one forward.
Dave Cowens at the other forward.

Gee, all happen to be Celtics.....  Well, I'm not taking off my green tinted glasses.    

OK Bob here is mine, of the players I actually saw play (mainly TV)

My Starting 5......

No Cousy as I never saw him..........so

Haviceck  PG (why not? He'd move the ball, and himself)
Bird  SG (hey he could shoot, plus Bob put him ther too)
Russell C  (no explanation needed)
McHale SF (imagine the miss matches)
Cowens PF (Have to have a mean bastard there)

beat

Here's mine only it's an eight man rotation. Apologies to the greats of the Russell era but I never saw them play except as an eight year old.

Bird preinjury
Garnett preinjury
Parish--great player willing to subordinate his ego to win
Dennis Johnson--one of the greatest big game guys ever
Pierce--hey, he spent a lot of time at guard
McHale--with Garnett the most versatile front court defender. Willing to come off bench
Havlicek--like a blank slate in a scrabble game. He could do anything a team needed. Greatest sixth man ever.
Cowens--when things get rough.

Yes, I know. No pure point guard. But with passers like Bird, Johnson, Pierce and Havlicek I don't think one will be missed.

Sloopjohnb wrote:"one of my favorite Bird games, he had so so many hard to pick the best, was the Pacer final playoff game in 91, Bird coming back after falling hard right on his face....what drama, what toughness!!! you just knew he was coming through."

That's the game that comes first to me for post back injury Bird.  Back so bad that he had to be put in traction after games and had to lie on his stomach while on the sidelines.  He then falls and bangs his head on the floor and looks like he was actually unconscious.

Pit stop in the locker room and he comes back late 3rd quarter to lead the team to a clinching game win, including stripping Chuck Person on a drive to preserve the victory.  You could read Bird's lips while he held the ball and glared at Person.

How about a list of the greatest trash talkers?

wasn't Bird the original trash talker? on that 91 Pacer game, the fans were going completely nuts, I remember watching that game and thinking this cannot be happening, I thought I was seeing something surreal, bigger than a game, it was hard not to cry watching that game, then hearing some of the Pacers complimenting Bird after the game.

Bird was one bad-ass trash talker. But in the words of Dizzy Dean, "It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

Like that game in Portland , I think 1985, when Bird was bored and thought that the game was too easy. So, what does he do? Bird starts shooting and making outside shots with his left hand, yelling out "Left hand, left hand" on each shot.

Afterwards a sportswriter asks him what was with all the left handed shots and Bird responds, "I'm saving my right hand for the Lakers."

At his peak he just made it look so easy, inside-outside, passing, the no look, posting, that lefty hook shot, running the floor even, wasn't anything he couldn't do. I'd take that version of Bird 84-86 over Lebron anyday.

Did I mention he had great range? only player ever to win 3 3 point contests in a row, lets see Lebron win one?

"it was hard not to cry watching that game, then hearing some of the Pacers complimenting Bird after the game."

Absolutely agree.  It was one of the most stirring performances I've ever see.

You know you've seen greatness when opponents are complimenting a player who just sent them packing for the summer.

Speaking of leaving opponents in awe, you remember that game when Bird dropped 60 on the Hawks?  He made a couple of shots in front of the Atlanta bench that caused Hawks players to fall off their seats and laugh at the sheer arrogance of the shots.

Bird was an absolute master of psychologically destroying an opponent.

Remember that broken play three pointer he launched from right in front of the Houston bench in the '86 game six clincher?

That was one of the great "F U" shots of all time.

yup remember those Hawks falling off the bench as Bird hit an off balance 3 that had such a degree of difficulty, he had no business hitting it. In an article in SI, they were saying Bird had a license to take what would be considered bad shots for others, he said "I'm like a gymnast, I'm into degree of difficulty".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d63iPnJu1vg

Enjoy

The thing about that game was that it came about two weeks after McHale established a Celtic record with 56 against the Pistons. When Bird was asked how long that record would last, he said, "Oh, about two weeks."

It ain't bragging if you can do it.

Sloopjohnb wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d63iPnJu1vg

Enjoy

The thing about that game was that it came about two weeks after McHale established a Celtic record with 56 against the Pistons.  When Bird was asked how long that record would last, he said, "Oh, about two weeks."

It ain't bragging if you can do it.

Watched it, now off for a cold shower... Lol

My all-time Celtic team:

F Larry Bird
F Dave Cowens
C Bill Russell
G Bob Cousy
G Sam Jones

F Kevin McHale
C Robert Parish
G-F John Havlicek

Cow,

I'm not big on these "all-time" compilations. However, I think you've put together a really good one. I'm just curious as to why you omitted Paul Pierce. I would have omitted him too, but I figured I was the only one in today's Celtics Nation who would do so. Hard to believe there might be two of us.

My grounds for omitting him is that—although I felt he obviously played a lot of great games and carried the Celtics on his back in the Championship series—he tended to favor an iso game that I don't associate with the uniqueness of the Celtics through the years. The greatness of those players you listed came primarily from within the flow of a team game, and I just happen to prefer that basketball model.

What was your reason for omitting him?

Sam