Pierce takes over again

If LA wants more cap space this season, they will waive Nash.
They might just keep him on for one more year to maximize cap space for the 2015 season.

I expect LeBron and Carmelo to both opt out and re-sign with their current teams.

I believe LA will make a big offer to Eric Bledsoe.
Hope for the best with the lottery and draft and not clog up cap space for 2015.

Cow, what does ".....cannot be called on to take over a game for real" really mean? Are you referring to the way Paul Pierce was called on in Game 2?

If Jeff Green is still with the Celtics when they're operating from a position of strength that includes many different players filling many different roles, doing it well, and not struggling to do things they're not well suited for, maybe we can discuss his contributions then.

Sam

Sam what don't you understand?

worcester wrote:Cow,

FYI Sam Jones, Hondo, Cousy, Russell, Heinsohn, and even Nellie were all also reliable and sometimes spectacular closers - but Paul Pierce has indeed been someone special. Huge cajones. And how could I forget Larry?

Pierce is no Larry, but who is? Bird is at worst the best forward in the history of the game and along with Jordan, the best clutch player ever in the game too. However in his/this era Pierce is one of the top closers of this generation and has been for a long time. I would have to agree he is close to his last legs, hes gonna be done in a year or two and I'll really miss him. Never the most talented, in a town with the best tradition and the highest standards, I admire the way hes played his heart out for this franchise.

sam wrote:Cow, what does ".....cannot be called on to take over a game for real" really mean?  Are you referring to the way Paul Pierce was called on in Game 2?

If Jeff Green is still with the Celtics when they're operating from a position of strength that includes many different players filling many different roles, doing it well, and not struggling to do things they're not well suited for, maybe we can discuss his contributions then.

Sam

right, guess we can't discuss the contributions now, cause all you do is make up weak excuses for his game. This is the NBA, its the game at the highest level, all your strengths and weaknesses are exposed, coaches actually try to take things away and attack weaknesses, who comes in with perfect surroundings to succeed? go ahead keep on pampering him.

Cow,

I'm well aware that "this is the NBA" and the NBA exposes strengths and weakness of players. But those strengths and weaknesses must be measured within some kind of context. You may call it an excuse, but I call it a fact that what was expected of Jeff Green this past season, was unrealistic. And not simply because of what you would call his weaknesses.

1. The simple fact was that he was not frequently put in a position to proceed because the Celtics didn't have the personnel resources or consistent chemistry to do so. He was pretty much put out there on an island and told to do his best.

2. For half the season, a small forward and a shoot-first SG functioned as the best passers on the team.

3. Jeff could have benefited from picks that never happened.

4. Sometimes, by default, he brought the ball upcourt.

5. Jeff played in every game—539 minutes more than any Celtic; and, in doing so, he had more exposure than any other Celtic to a new and changing cast of players who never really did achieve much chemistry in the face of HUGE discontinuity.

6. After Rondo returned, the 24-second clock often became such an issue that Jeff was frequently called upon to shoot the desperation shot. (And he hit a rather amazing number of them.)

7. And, added to this mixture of unevenness, challenge and discontinuity was the vague and ill-defined expectation on all sides that Jeff should magically emerge as some kind of "go to" guy.

8. In short, he was established, through no fault of his own, as THE lightning rod for this
team.

9. You may think those kinds of circumstances represent the perfect setting for a player two years away from heart surgery to emerge as a “go to” guy. I choose to disagree.

10. You choose to accuse me of making excuses for Jeff. Fine. I choose to suggest that you are blaming the victim and making absolutely no allowances for the multiple negative contexts within which he performed this season.

11. I’ve often alluded to the dangers of having what I call a “tin soldier” perspective on pro basketball—just wind them up and put them out there, and they should automatically perform as one thinks they should perform. It’s a good little analogy to keep in mind.

12. I’m not trying to make excuses for Jeff. I am trying to shed a little light on the fact that player evaluation is not as simplistic as some might believe. And that’s why I feel this discussion would better be held when Jeff has had the opportunity to play in a more normal and nurturing team context that involves a high degree of enabling one another—whether that opportunity comes with the Celtics or with another team.

13. He may never become a “go to” guy; but, whatever his potential is, it will be better identified under more “normal” circumstances.

Sam

P.S. You never answered my question about whether Pierce's second playoff game an example of how he was "called on to take over the game." And, if he WAS called on, how would you rate his performance? Could it possibly be that every player suffers inconsistency from time to time?

Cow,

In regards to Jeff Green, it was hashed out months ago the type of player he was; a complimentary guy that could probably help out an already good team become better. No one is making excuses for him. He is what he is, a solid player that is athletic and can make contributions on both ends of the court.

The Celtics had a plethora of weaknesses this year. And it's much easier for opposing teams to exploit those weaknesses when the necessary personnel just isn't there.

Your evaluation of him is trapped within a vaccuum. I can't honestly fathom your previous expectations of him.



KJ

kj

Right I think there was a writer, Hollinger I think it was that blasted the trade for Jeff Green, basically saying Danny goofed that he will prove not to be all we hoped he would become....well I rooted like hell for Jeff Green to prove him wrong, most on the board despise Hollinger, but unfortunately can't say he was wrong.

cow

Sam

Obviously with the trade of Pierce and KG and no Rondo and the age of the roster, Jeff Green was given every opportunity to earn his place, earn his money, a great year could have led to a bigger or possible max contract for Jeff Green, most 27 yr old players would relish it....well Jeff Green proved the expectations/opportunity was not something he could deliver on, bottom line, if you want to give him another chance, thats fine. I'm ready to move on.

On the comment, you can read English, you really want to make me say more stuff about Jeff Green? those moves you say are his go to moves, are his moves, we've all never seen him use them as an effective closer to really carry his team, since his whole career hes been at best a third option and there is a reason why....so I was rooting for him to make a jump in ability, and every 6th game or so he could show hes got some Worthy in him.

Pierce is human, I don't have to defend Paul Pierce, you taking shots at him is very childish, thats not like you.

cow

What I'm saying is that Jeff Green was specifically NOT given "every opportunity" this past season. Perhaps, by default, he had an opportunity to become a standout "me-baller" among a rather rag tag team, but that's not Jeff Green. He was NOT given an opportunity to blend his talents with others who were consistently good enough and cohesive enough to offer Jeff the kind of support that could have helped him develop an identity and pursue that identity with greater consistency.

And I'm not taking shots at Paul Pierce. My message about Pierce (which you obviously chose to ignore) is that his mixed performance from night to night is evidence that every player can suffer from inconsistency from time to time. And, the less consistent his team is, the less consistent a given player on that team is likely to be—especially when he's searching for an identity amidst a revolving door of teammates. You may feel the Celtics were consistent enough to present Jeff with an ideal forum for improvement. I don't see it that way.

Sam

Pierce is looking real good tonight, just hit a classic step back mid range shot that gave Brooklyn its biggest lead 11, already had a nice drive and dunk finish and his last shot was a 3, he hasn't gotten hot from outside yet, but as they say its coming.

Havlicek was fearless, after running everyone else off the court, he was still going strong. Look at the last game Russell and Sam Jones played in to show they had ice water in their veins!

Pierce did it again tonite, KG is still fighting hard, but this has to be it for him. I believe PP will keep playing, one reporter mentioned him ending up with Doc, I don't know about that. I only hope for his sake he doesn't hang on too long.

Rosalie

RosalieTCeltics wrote:Havlicek was fearless, after running everyone else off the court, he was still going strong. Look at the last game Russell and Sam Jones played in to show they had ice water in their veins!

Pierce did it again tonite, KG is still fighting hard, but this has to be it for him.  I believe PP will keep playing, one reporter mentioned him ending up with Doc, I don't know about that. I only hope for his sake he doesn't hang on too long.

Rosalie

Hondo

To this day my all time favorite Celtic. Loved his cool demeanor. Read that his resting pulse rate was in the 40's while normal humans are in the 72 range. That pulse rate is what world class distance runners have.

From Red

Auerbach recalls: "We were sitting around a pool one day, and I asked him how far he could swim. He said he didn't know. I said, 'All right, a mile?' 'Sure.' 'O.K., two miles?' 'Sure.' 'Well then, how far?' 'I don't know,' he said. 'You know, I can swim just like I can walk.' "


beat

John was a great runner in terms of endurance.  He wasn't a speed demon (not that anyone was implying that he was).  I recall, at the end of his carer, some tv show pitted greats of different sports against one another in a sprint (probably 100 meters).  I sat there waiting for John to mop them us.  After all, he had been the Cleveland Browns' final cut as a wide receiver after having been a quarterback in school.  Instead, he finished a distant last.  If they had run a marathon instead, my money would have been on John.

From the day he joined the Caltics, John caught on to the fact that one of his most important calling cards would be persistence.  Persistence in improving his shot.  Persistence in never giving up on a play.  Persistence in winning 50/50 contests.  Persistence in bouncing back after going for a fake.  Persistence in gutting out every ounce of energy even when there was none left.  Persistence in running the floor.  Persistence in getting in opponents' uniforms on defense.  Persistence in rebounding action.  Persistence in slashing toward the hoop.  And, most important of course, persistence in insisting on winning the big ones.

In terms of sheer persistence, the only player I might consider John's equal was Russell.  And Russ would occasionally take offensive possessions off in order to grab a quick rest.  Not John.  I like using the analogy of toy soldiers in stating that you don't just put a player out there, turn him on, and expect him always to perform at peak standards.  John Havlicek was the only player I've ever seen who defied my analogy consistently.

In his 7th season (1968-69), after averaging 47.22 minutes in the playoffs and (like Russ) playing 48 in the Balloon Game, John led a charge to find a car in the cavernous "Fabulous" Forum. He was flanked by George Plympton (the guy who used to play a few minutes with various teams, including the Celtics, and then write all about it—his most famous book probably being "Paper Lion") and me. (It was George who had borrowed the car.) For a couple of minutes, it was almost like filling a lane on the Celtics fast break, with John the point man. A large crowd was in hot pursuit—many wanting something from John—clothes, an autograph, or simply to touch him.

After those few euphoric fantasy moments of "filling a lane," and bogged down by John's equipment bag, I became seriously air-deprived. I peeked at George, and he was similarly gassed as we went back and forth in the parking lot with George moaning, "I don't remember what the car looks like." As I prepared for the ignominy of collapsing and being trampled by the crowd, I glanced over at John. The strenuous championship game notwithstanding, he was not even breathing hard as he veritably pranced over the pavement. AND HE WAS DOING IT BACKWARDS as he signed autographs for the fastest runners in the following crowd.

We finally located the convertible and, as I and the equipment bag literally crawled up into the back seat, John was drumming a tattoo on the dashboard and screaming, "We did it! They said we couldn't do it, and we did it!" Meanwhile the crowd was threatening to smash the top of the convertible as George backed out. And, undaunted as usual, John opened his window and yelled, "See you next year, guys."

John's had some heart arrhythmia problems lately, but he went through a procedure that apparently countered the ailment. I find myself wondering whether they even bothered with anesthesia. The man simply was and is incredible.

Sam

Sam

Not that I am hurrying along anyone's demise, but I'm inclined to think that when that day comes for John Havlicek and they do an autopsy, they will find something similar to what the vets found in the race horse Secretariat. A HEART that is over twice the normal size (not the negative diseased enlarged heart) just a pump that allowed him to have endurance far beyond "normal" standards.

When Secretariat was put down the autopsy showed that is heart weighed close to 22 pounds,the average Thoroughbred heart weighs 9 lbs. Secretariat's heart was all in porportion, not a mutation.  

http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/nutbush/

beat

beat,

I took the liberty to allow your link to "breathe" by removing the brackets and putting it on it's own line.  Now it will work.  I hope you don't mind.

gyso

PS: I do this whenever I notice that someone posts a link that doesn't work.  No, there is not a ghost in the machine, just me earning my moderator salary.

GYSO

??? I really don't know what I'm doing half the time............ and the other half I spend trying to figure out what I did the other half of the time.

beat

Thank goodness there are other brains on here and at home.

The story was that Havlicek had a huge lung capacity, enabling him to run, run, run!

Rosalie

RosalieTCeltics wrote:The story was that Havlicek had a huge lung capacity, enabling him to run, run, run!

Rosalie

Here is a Hondo story I had not read until now....

http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2010/09/original-old-school-iron-john/

and part way down the first page is the story about his lungs... they would not fit on a normal xray

beat

Since this thread has covered all sorts of ground, I'd just like to put in my own plug for Citation as the greatest race horse of all time. His record in his all-important three-year-old year (29-1) was arguably as good as Man 'O War's (20-1) or Secretariat's (16-5). But, whereas the other two were retired after their third year of life, Citation kept racing and winning. His dying owner had a dream that Citation would become the first horse to earn $1 million. But, in his fourth year of racing, "Big Cy" suffered a severe injury and probably should have been retired. But, after he recuperated, they kept racing him, and he failed to win in several attempts—even being out of the money once, for the only time in his life.

Finally, as the horseracing nation held its collective breath, Citation won his last two races to become the only horse (at that juncture) to best the $1 million mark. I have no idea how physically large his heart was, but a nation was thrilled by the richness of heart he displayed. He became one of my early heroes, mainly because I was just so happy he retired intact. And I'm firmly convinced that Citation would have beaten John Havlicek over 1 1/2 miles in both their primes. (LOL)

Sam

Thanks Beat, that story just brought back so many memories for me. From the time he joined the Celtics, Havlicek was my favorite. I personally have seen him win so many games throughout his career, the most favorite was his shot in the triple overtime game against Phoenix. I had spent most of the winter going back and forth to the hospital, my son was born three months early, weighed 2lbs5 oz, dropped to 1lb10 ozs. My husband and I spent 75 days running back and forth to the hospital. He went at five am, I would go at 12:00pm,
And we would both go at 5:00 pm together. It was a long haul, but thru it all, I would have the Celtics at night to keep up my spirits.
When they were going to play that game, I went to Boston, stood in line for hours, and got tickets. We sat in the second baloney, right in front on the basket that Havlicek made his famous "leaner" shot.
It was the greatest game I had ever seen, even though I had sat thru so many Russell, jones's boys, et al games.

John Havlicek will forever hold a special place in my heart

Rosalie