Re: Asik for Green again?

by **dboss** Fri May 02, 2014 1:35 pm

Sam

And Who might be that growth curve center?

I should mention that Gortat could most likely give us 5 good years.

A lot can happen. I was a little surprised to see that Asik will turn 28 in July.

Must admit I am less and less inclined to want him on the Celtics. Seems way overpaid given his production.

Dboss

by **cowens/oldschool** Fri May 02, 2014 10:51 pm

dboss

Did you see his 5 game production with Howard out?

16.8 rebounds per game with two 23 board games, seems productive to me. I can't remember a 5 game stretch of rebounding like that on the Celtics since Cowens or Larry Bird.

cow

by **Sam** Sat May 03, 2014 12:35 am

Dboss, in this particular case, I had Asik in mind. My impression is that, every time he has shown real promise, he's been "rewarded" by being shunted into the background in one way or another. I actually believe there's every possibility that he has not yet reached the peak of what he can do on the floor and that he might have a lot of growth left in him—not in physical stature but as a function of feeling more comfortable within the continuity of a permanent role with a franchise that is gradually coming together.

Sam

by **k_j_88** Sat May 03, 2014 12:41 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:dboss

Did you see his 5 game production with Howard out?

16.8 rebounds per game with two 23 board games, seems productive to me. I can't remember a 5 game stretch of rebounding like that on the Celtics since Cowens or Larry Bird.

cow

Eventually, he'd come back down to Earth.

Asik is a good player, but the Gortat possibility seems better on several levels. I'm thinking the Celtics can get Gortat for less money than what Asik would probably want, too. Guys around their later 20s that become free agents tend to want that big pay day, and he's already on the Rockets' books for $8M.

KJ

by **Outside** Sat May 03, 2014 12:07 pm

Both Asik and Gortat have played pretty well in this year's playoffs. Gortat has the somewhat better numbers, but he's played 36 minutes per game compared to 27 for Asik. Either one would fit the bill.

by **bobheckler** Sat May 03, 2014 12:28 pm

I've been somewhat impressed with Asik's defense on LaMarcus Aldridge. Yeah, I know that Aldridge is posting some pretty gaudy numbers (30 points last night, 29.8ppg for the series) but I swear I don't think anybody could stop him. He was hitting shots with Asik right there in his face. He was hitting them all, from everywhere. And consider that Asik is a center and Aldridge is a PF, so he's on the losing side of mobility against him. McHale didn't put Howard on him, he put Asik on him and let Howard go against Robin Lopez (a player I would also like to see in green. Next year is a team option for $5.3M. The option will be picked up, I'm sure). Another thing I liked was that, after Aldridge hit some high degree of difficulty shot with Asik right there, Asik would shake his head in frustration. He didn't hang his head, he was getting upset that he was doing everything he could and it still wasn't working. I liked that. Don't get down on yourself, don't roll your eyes, just get pissed off and work harder.

With a 1st round departure the chances of being able to shake someone loose from Daryl Morey just increased. Omri Casspi got a DNP-Coaches Decision, so they could use some depth at 3. In fact, Chandler Parsons played 42 minutes and he was the only Houston 3 last night.

bob

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by **Sam** Sat May 03, 2014 1:03 pm

Bob, I like the way you think. What I think I hear you saying (tell me if I'm wrong) is that Asik has acquitted him as well as could be expected as a center playing a more mobile power forward. But he'll continue to be a PF for the most part if he stays with Houston and his idiot big man partner is healthy. So, despite his abilities, they can't be maximized in the role he's asked to play with the Rockets. Unfortunately, other than Sully, I don't know if the Celtics have anyone more promising than Asik to offer Houston at the PF position. Maybe they'd think about needing depth at the SF and would consider taking Green; but that possibility has a funny feel to it—like they're taking on too much salary and giving away too much talent for a backup 3.

Sam

by **bobheckler** Sat May 03, 2014 1:26 pm

sam wrote:Bob, I like the way you think. What I think I hear you saying (tell me if I'm wrong) is that Asik has acquitted him as well as could be expected as a center playing a more mobile power forward. But he'll continue to be a PF for the most part if he stays with Houston and his idiot big man partner is healthy. So, despite his abilities, they can't be maximized in the role he's asked to play with the Rockets. Unfortunately, other than Sully, I don't know if the Celtics have anyone more promising than Asik to offer Houston at the PF position. Maybe they'd think about needing depth at the SF and would consider taking Green; but that possibility has a funny feel to it—like they're taking on too much salary and giving away too much talent for a backup 3.

Sam

sam,

Yep, that's what I am saying. I'm saying he played out of position against one of only two players in the league I would consider trading Sully for (Kevin Love being the other) and he did about as well as could be expected. If anything, McHale assigning Asik to guard Aldridge (he also tried PF Terrence Jones and Jones got eaten up alive by Aldridge. A clear mismatch) and not Howard was a nod for Asik's man-to-man defense over Howard's. Howard is great when you come to him, not as good when he has to move his feet to keep up with you. In fact, if you look at Aldridge's shot chart from last night, you'll see that 6 of his 10 fgm came from the left side AND were outside the paint, as well as 7 of his missed fgas (that's over half of his total fgas) and he was 0-4, including only 1 fga in the paint, in the 4th quarter. When you are forcing Aldridge to take contested 16-18'ers, you've done your job whether he hits them or not.

Asik for Green won't fly. Money-wise, maybe, but not in Morey's mind. Green +1st round pick? Better, but Morey's thinking he deserves more. Green + 1st round pick + Bass for Asik and Casspi? That might work because then Morey gets a 1st (very high on his demand list) and an upgrade at 3 and more beef in Bass.

Another thing working in our favor is that next year is Asik's final year. If he's still unhappy then he can leave and Morey won't get anything for him. The clock is ticking for Morey, not for Danny.

bob

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by **dboss** Sat May 03, 2014 4:43 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:dboss

Did you see his 5 game production with Howard out?

16.8 rebounds per game with two 23 board games, seems productive to me. I can't remember a 5 game stretch of rebounding like that on the Celtics since Cowens or Larry Bird.

Cow

I was referring to his body of work rather than a snippet. But if you review his production in the 6 game series against Portland there was nothing about his game that was remotely impressive.

He averaged 5.8 PPG, 8.2 rebounds 0.7 assists and 0.7 blocks. He did manage to foul out in 2 games and averaged 4.8 fouls per contest.

If you consider overall value of a player I try to look at everything so when I look at Asik I do not see a player that is worth our starting SF and a #1 pick.

The smart move would be for Danny to explore all of his free agent options and he could very well land Gortat and not have to part with any assets other than money.

If they traded Green and a pick for Asik the real cost must include the cost to replace our small forward.

The most I would give up for Asik would be Bass....straight up. But that would be Plan C.

Plan A would be to draft Embiid. Plan B go after Gortat

dboss

by **dboss** Sat May 03, 2014 5:11 pm

If Asik was able to check Aldridge or at least hold his own on the glass an argument could be made that he played well.

The biggest game of the year was last night. A closeout game and quite frankly Asik sucked. Aldridge dropped 30 and has 13 rebounds. Asik had 4 pts and 7 rebound a block and he also fouled out.

I understand that he was playing out of position at PF but nevertheless he still sucked. So why give him any kudos?

It is too bad that Kevin McHale is a lousy coach. The matchup should have been Howard on Aldridge and Asik on Lopez.

dboss

by **Outside** Sat May 03, 2014 5:16 pm

dboss,

Did you actually watch the game, or are you just going by stats?

by **tjmakz** Sat May 03, 2014 5:21 pm

I watched last nights close out game by Portland and I thought Asik was terrible. The more I watch him the less I am impressed by him. I have no idea why Dwight wasn't covering Aldridge instead of Lopez.

Asik is a good defender and a rebounder but because he's not athletic, he is not a very good help defender or defensive presence.

I am pretty sure Boston won't be a championship contender next year. I would pass on Asik as he will be a free agent after next season.

by **Outside** Sat May 03, 2014 5:44 pm

It was Asik on Aldridge and Howard on Lopez for several reasons.

First, Asik did a better job in the series on Aldridge than anyone else. Aldridge is one of the toughest assignments because he's really long, very skilled, and shoots a LOT of mid-range jumpers. The best way to bother Aldridge on those outside shots is length; when they put Terrence Jones on him, Aldridge shot as if he was alone in the gym because Jones doesn't have the length to even bother him. They tried Howard and they tried Asik, and Asik is the only one who did a credible job on him. No, he didn't shut him down, but Aldridge is arguably the third-best player in the league, and you don't shut a guy like that down. After Aldridge torched Houston for 46 and 43 and Portland took a 2-0 lead, Asik got a lot of credit for "limiting" Aldridge from that point (23, 29, 8, 30) to help get Houston back into the series.

Second, Houston needed Howard on the offensive end. It makes sense to give him the easier assignment of Lopez so that he's not as worn out at the offensive end.

Third, fouls. Howard has a well-known tendency to get in foul trouble. Putting him on Aldridge would just make that worse.

by **dboss** Sat May 03, 2014 5:48 pm

Outside wrote:dboss,

Did you actually watch the game, or are you just going by stats?

Yes I watched the game. I have been watching all of the games. It has been a very exciting playoff series.

With respect to Asik I do not want to give anyone the impression that I do not like him. I would love to have him play for the Celtics but I just do not see his value the way others might see it.

dboss

by **Sam** Sat May 03, 2014 5:57 pm

Dboss,

This is just a question. I have absolutely no hidden agenda here. Since you've seen a lot of Houston lately, how would you describe the type of defense they play versus the type of defense the Celtics play (or at least strive to play)? In which of those two situations do you feel Asik would be more effective defensively? At PF for Houston or at center for the Celtics? And, as always, the most important question is, "Why?"

I'm not limiting this question to Dboss either. I'm trying to get a fix on Asik once and for all.

Thanks,

Sam

by **dboss** Sat May 03, 2014 6:02 pm

Outside the matchup was horrible.

Asik is not quick enough to cover Aldridge.

Aldridge had 2 fantastic games but even in those games Howard also played very well. Asik was nonproductive overall during the series and that is the real point. In the biggest game of the series Asik was a no show and Aldridge put up 30/13

Sorry but I cannot give credit to him for doing a good job. The coaching strategy was warped.

dboss

by **dboss** Sat May 03, 2014 6:11 pm

sam wrote:Dboss,

This is just a question. I have absolutely no hidden agenda here. Since you've seen a lot of Houston lately, how would you describe the type of defense they play versus the type of defense the Celtics play (or at least strive to play)? In which of those two situations do you feel Asik would be more effective defensively? At PF for Houston or at center for the Celtics? And, as always, the most important question is, "Why?"

I'm not limiting this question to Dboss either. I'm trying to get a fix on Asik once and for all.

Thanks,

Sam

Sam

The Celtics do not play defense and neither does Portland. Portland's offense is their defense.

Asik would provide an interior PHYSICAL presence in the paint as well as a strong rebounder. I do not necessarily see him as a help defender but if someone drives to the hoop he will lay the wood to him. On offense he sets great picks up top but his offensive tools are limited. Rondo would probably turn him into a 12 -14 ppg scorer.

He would be a solid addition to the team at center and but a disaster at PF.

dboss

by **k_j_88** Sat May 03, 2014 6:41 pm

Sam,

As DBoss alluded to, Asik's athletic limitations would certainly prevent him from being a viable PF because a lot of PFs are perimeter shooters these days.

I'd keep him strictly center.

KJ

by **Sam** Sat May 03, 2014 10:24 pm

Hey, guys, I guess I didn't explain my question well enough. I was in NO REMOTE WAY suggesting that Asik be turned into a PF if he were with the Celtics:

• With the Rockets, I see his role as being a PF as long as Howard is around.

• With the Celtics, I would see his role as a center.

• I have to question the validity of evaluating his potential defensive presence as a center for the Celtics based on how he has played defense at PF for the Rockets.

My question is twofold:

1. Is Asik at defensive PF valuable enough to the Rockets to warrant their refusing to trade him?

2. Would Asik at defensive center be a sufficiently substantial upgrade on the Celtics to warrant trading for him?

My own answers would be "No" and "Yes" respectively. I'm just wondering about your answers.

Sam

by **cowens/oldschool** Sat May 03, 2014 11:42 pm

dboss

I was thinking the same thing myself that it should have been your matchups, the only reason McHale possibly didn't go for that was to keep Howard away from foul trouble, but Aldridge was a terrible matchup for Asik as he has the range of a stretch 4. Asik should be kept as close to the basket as possible defensively to rebound and protect the rim.

cow

by **dboss** Sun May 04, 2014 11:14 am

Sam

My answers are also no and yes

Dboss

by **sinus007** Sun May 04, 2014 11:25 am

Sam,
Those are very good questions.
I don't know much about Rockets - their system, style of play, roster - to answer the 1st question.
#2 is resounding yes. From what I saw of Asik he's a clear upgrade to everyone Celtics currently have at 5. Also, the path to get him seems to be much less complicated and painless than any other center of his level.

AK

by **bobheckler** Sun May 04, 2014 11:39 am

tjmakz wrote:I watched last nights close out game by Portland and I thought Asik was terrible. The more I watch him the less I am impressed by him. I have no idea why Dwight wasn't covering Aldridge instead of Lopez.

Asik is a good defender and a rebounder but because he's not athletic, he is not a very good help defender or defensive presence.

I am pretty sure Boston won't be a championship contender next year. I would pass on Asik as he will be a free agent after next season.

TJ,

You thought he was terrible? I thought he did about as good as a guy playing out of position against a player who was hitting everything could do.

I'm standing by my assertion in an earlier post which is that Howard is a great weakside defender when the player comes to him but lacks the lateral foot speed to defend man-to-man against a more mobile player like Aldridge. He would have picked up a couple of fouls quickly and he is more important than Asik. I think McHale put Asik on Aldridge to protect Howard.

bob

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by **dboss** Sun May 04, 2014 11:59 am

Asik is a foul machine.

What ever happened to using other strategies like double teaming or forcing a player to the other side of the court where he is less productive.

I maintain that Howard is quicker than Asik.

There are other things that happened in the series but the Aldridge matchup goes to Portland.

Dboss

by **Outside** Sun May 04, 2014 4:17 pm

I agree with BobH that I think Asik did about as well as anyone could do. When Aldridge is on, he is an impossible matchup for anyone. I don't see how doing the best job covering Aldridge of anyone on the Rockets is doing a poor job.

Despite all that, Asik still rebounded well. His per-36-minute rebounding for the series was actually higher than Aldridge (10.8 vs. 9.8). The only way Asik would be remotely productive offensively would be in the post, and he's not going to get opportunities there with Howard in the game. On the offensive end, his job for Houston is to set picks and stay out of Howard's way.

I personally thought Asik played well against Portland, using both the eye test and analyzing the stats. Dboss, I guess we'll just have to disagree.

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