ESPN's Chad Ford Says "Strong Signals" Celtics "Trying Hard" To Get Love

by **bobheckler** Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:32 pm

According to ESPN's draft expert, Chad Ford, the Celtics are looking to use this year's #6 and #17 picks (plus Sullinger, Olynyk, and future firsts) to make a trade for Kevin Love.

ESPN's Chad Ford Says "Strong Signals" Celtics "Trying Hard" To Get Love BqVhh1UCYAIIcmE

ESPN's Chad Ford Says "Strong Signals" Celtics "Trying Hard" To Get Love BqVhh1UCYAIIcmE

bob
MY NOTE: To make the numbers work it would take more than Sully, Kelly and a boatload of draft picks and then you start getting into the roster limitations problem. You can only have 15 players on a team, they currently have 12 under contract for next year. So, if they give up one player they can only pick up 4, max. If we trade them the #6 AND the #17 and we have to give them at least two players in the trade to make the numbers work, plus their own pick at #13 then they are over the roster limit. There is the $10.3M trade exception, so we could only have to give up one player, but I don't think it could be Sully/Kelly, I think it might have to be a player with a bigger contract.

Still, we're looking at some potential fireworks. I find the lack of rumors about Asik to be interesting. EVERYBODY knows Morey wants to move him, he has already tried and will likely end up with nothing next year if he doesn't, and EVERYBODY knows Danny wants him because he has already tried to get him. Is a deal already written in pencil? Danny has all but told Sully he should slim down to be a PF because he's going to get him a center to play with this coming year (it might be Pekovic, but Sully WILL play with a center next year. LOL). Is Morey realizing that he blew his best shot last year and now has to come down a bit on his demands, especially if he wants Carmelo? If Morey wants to clear cap space for Carmelo, then Danny might have to give him the $10.3M trade exception to help with that which makes the "gut the roster for Kevin Love" scenario less likely because the numbers will have to work using players and not trade exceptions.

9 more days to the draft, 14 more days to the free agent signing period begins (although we all know the talking will begin way before that). A BIG two weeks coming up, BIG, probably the biggest since this time in 2007 when we knew that Pierce either wanted Danny to make it rain or trade him. Even last year, with the big trade with Brooklyn, while being very emotional and landscape-changing, wasn't as BIG in terms as this year because we know we are in transition now, we know we have holes to fill and we finally have some cap space and trade exceptions to work with. Last year's blockbuster, with the expiring contracts and expiring trade exception, was the setup for this year. The rumors are going to start coming fast and furious over the coming week as GMs jockey for position in the draft and sharpen their pencils to submit their "final final" bids on potential trade targets.

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by **NYCelt** Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:54 pm

If there is a way to get Love, you certainly do it. Including #'s 6 and 17 in this years draft for a proven 25yo pf is a fair deal. Throwing in Sully and/or Olynyk along with other contracts within guidelines is OK too.

I still don't see it happening, however.

by **Sam** Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:04 pm

I want them to get an intimidating center and then see if the remaining assets could include a sufficient bundle to pry Love loose. As I understand it, there's only a tiny window for Danny to use the Trade Exception, so that could force him to move quickly—which would be my preference anyway.

Sam

by **kdp59** Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:10 pm

can't use the trade exception with other players in a deal , remember.

Green, Sully and BOTH draft picks would be in the $15M range which should work for Love.

IF they trade BOTH of this years picks and maybe even future first, I hope we get Dieng also in the deal.

Send them Bogans non-guaranteed deal.

If houston goes all in on Melo, send them the trade exception for Asik, they will need the cap room.

then we'd still need to move Bass for a three AND re-sign Bradley.

thats a lot of moving pieces to make work.

by **bobheckler** Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:30 pm

kdp59 wrote:can't use the trade exception with other players in a deal , remember.

Green, Sully and BOTH draft picks would be in the $15M range which should work for Love.

IF they trade BOTH of this years picks and maybe even future first, I hope we get Dieng also in the deal.

Send them Bogans non-guaranteed deal.

If houston goes all in on Melo, send them the trade exception for Asik, they will need the cap room.

then we'd still need to move Bass for a three AND re-sign Bradley.

thats a lot of moving pieces to make work.

kdp,

Green + Sully for Love does not work, per NBA Trade Machine. That's because Green and Sully together are only $10M. Throw Bogans in and it works, but Minny has to be cap space sensitive to care about that. They have $66.5M in committed contracts next year and the salary cap is projected to be $63.2M, so maybe they'd be interested. Waiving Bogans would get them under the cap which would enable them to sign players.

bob

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by **kdp59** Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:32 pm

Bob ,

that trade machine must not be counting the two draft picks salary's (which is somehwere aounrd $4.5M or so I believe).

by **bobheckler** Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:53 pm

kdp59 wrote:Bob ,

that trade machine must not be counting the two draft picks salary's (which is somehwere aounrd $4.5M or so I believe).

Draft picks have no salaries. If you're saying that the Celtics would draft who they want, sign them and then trade them then that's something else.

If we do that then we're talking about $4.13M ($2.7 + $1.4). A question I have is "can you sign someone and then trade them immediately if that player wasn't on your roster last year, which rookies are not?". If this would be considered a "sign-and-trade", then you cannot do it, not without waiting a few months . If you trade the picks and the rights to players picked BEFORE they sign the contract, can you count them towards a trade? They're not contracts, just rights to players.

Here's excerpts from the Wikipedia page on the NBA Salary Cap:

When a team initiates a sign-and-trade agreement, it must trade the signed player immediately; teams cannot renege on the arrangement and keep the player for themselves, using the other team's financial situation to leverage the signee into a more favorable deal for themselves. Also, the contract signed before the trade must be for at least 3 years, with the first year guaranteed.

If a newly signed player is not part of a sign-and-trade, his new team cannot trade him until December 15 of the calendar year in which he was signed or three months after the date on which he signed, whichever arrives later.

Under the 2011 CBA, the signed player must have been on the roster of his previous team at the end of the last regular season.

Well, reading this, it blows up my trade scenario for Asik with Bogans as trade bait. If he is sign-and-traded the first year must be guaranteed (like it was last year when he came from Brooklyn). Crap.

Calling Dr. Gyso...

bob

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by **112288** Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:19 pm

The package being proposed in Ford's article is way tooooooooooo expensive. So you get Love..........and you still have no center.

If it happens .........I would only swap Sully for Love as Love is heads and tails a better power forward then Sully, throw in a draft pick and Bogans contract but that is it.

Who is going to give Minny anything better........no one and who knows if Love leaves after 1 year. There has to be a longer term deal cut immediately to eliminate the risk of Love leaving next year to warrant sweetening the pot.

My preference, I'd rather see us continue to stock pile assets through the draft and see how they pan out next year playing for us. Why panic at this stage of the process as we are in better position with a very strong draft then before 2008. Before the KG trade, Danny was pressed to create some fireworks as he probably looking at his last year as GM if things remained the same.

I believe the #6 & #17 picks could add additional value if they play very well during the coming season, which can only help not hurts us. This could attract Love next year without giving the house away.

112288

by **kdp59** Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:45 pm

Bob, I believe once the NBA year starts, that the draft picks salarys are put on teams cap # as holds.

so if we trade those two picks ( I wouldn't trade both this year, but), we are trading over $4M in salary holds for those picks.

I don't know anything about the trade machine, it's easier for me to look up players salaries and just get close myself (within 125%).

Bogans is already signed to a deal it is just not guaranteed. So he can be "traded" to any team if his $5M is needed to balance the trade. the recieving team can cut him and pay him nothing and it comes off thier cap number. No need to "sign and trade" on Bogans .

by **Sam** Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:50 pm

Growth doesn't suddenly occur after several seasons of waiting until "next year" with plenty of assets dangling off our Christmas tree. Every season should be one of growth—and I'm NOT talking about contention type growth—just growth in the right direction. It's not panicking to make a trade for a needed part, and the center position is a very needed part in facilitating the aforementioned growth.

Sam

by **k_j_88** Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:34 pm

What if the Celtics just kept their picks, allowing Stevens to coach them up?

KJ

by **NYCelt** Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:27 pm

k_j_88 wrote:What if the Celtics just kept their picks, allowing Stevens to coach them up?

KJ

Good question!

At this time, that is at worst an even money proposition to actually happen.

For the sake of argument and throwing in a couple of names. What if we were to land Vonleh at 6 and Payton at 17? Not outside of the realm of possibilities. They have the potential of not only fitting in with what Stevens wants to run, but developing quickly. With the possible exception of Love, they could be better players and a better fit in a year or two than other veterans known or assumed to be available now.

I would think that must be an idea that hasn't been entirely discarded.

by **k_j_88** Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:04 pm

I like the prospect of growing a team together because the window of opportunity would be longer down the road.

First round talents have a greater chance of being impact players. While the draft is never a definite, it certainly doesn't hurt to have more picks (more picks = higher probability of finding good players through drafting).

San Antonio has shown that good scouting and coaching works wonders. Celtics could do that.

KJ

KJ

by **hawksnestbeach** Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:27 pm

NYCELT, I hope we do land Vonleh at 6, Payton, perhaps, at 17, give Stevens a couple of years to work with them, Rondo, Bradley, Sully-Kelly, etc. On a developing team, I don't think we need a very expensive forward at the height of his game, and earning power - Love, LeBron or Melo. Now if one came to the Celtics as a team-oriented star, agreeing to take less so Danny could surround him with great talent and win a ring, I'd take him in a heartbeat. If he thought like that, he'd play like that and we'd be off to the races. Hawk

by **Outside** Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:57 pm

The draft picks would be to sweeten the deal so that Minnesota says yes. The nice thing is that Ainge has so many that he can give up some to get a guy like Love and still have plenty left over.

Getting Dieng in a deal with Love would be an exceptional plus, but it's probably overly optimistic. Shoot, just getting Love may be overly optimistic, but if you're going down that road, why not throw Dieng in?

by **gyso** Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:34 pm

Draft picks are worth zero (0) in trades. They do have cap holds associated with them once the draft has taken place. The cap holds only affect a team's salary cap number, which than affects which exception(s) can be used. Cap holds cannot be traded.

Bogans is under contract. It just is not guaranteed. A sign-and-trade is not needed in order to trade him. Once he is traded, the acquiring team can release him. They dump his entire salary. That is where his value lies. He can be combined with other player salaries in a trade.

Trade exceptions cannot be combined with anything in a trade. Our $10.3M TE can be used to trade for one player whose salary is close to $10M. I have read that Asik's $8.3M is close enough, but I cannot verify this with a trade checker. TE's can also be split up into multiple trades. We can use part of it in one trade and use the rest in another trade. Repeat as necessary until the $10.3M is used up or let remainder just fall off the books.

In an earlier thread, it was proposed that the $10.3M TE could be traded for Asik in one trade. In another trade, a bouquet of non-guaranteed contracts (Bogans plus two of either Pressey, Babbs and Johnson) could be traded for Lin. Supposedly, taking Lin was the cost of getting Asik. First round picks could be thrown into the second trade, the direction they go is the question. Is Houston hungry enough for some Melo so they send picks our way or are we hungry enough for some Omer that we send a pick their way?

gyso

by **Sam** Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:37 pm

One way or another, it's getting exciting, guys. Sort of sitting at a local beach waiting until that first spark ushers in the fireworks show. The only problem is that, a few years ago, our fireworks blew up and we haven't had any since. I'm hoping for much better things as Draft Day nears. Have to admit to being more excited about acquisitions other than those in the draft, but it should be a humdinger of a rodeo any way one looks at it.

Sam

by **gyso** Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:57 pm

hawksnestbeach wrote:NYCELT, I hope we do land Vonleh at 6, Payton, perhaps, at 17, give Stevens a couple of years to work with them, Rondo, Bradley, Sully-Kelly, etc. On a developing team, I don't think we need a very expensive forward at the height of his game, and earning power - Love, LeBron or Melo. Now if one came to the Celtics as a team-oriented star, agreeing to take less so Danny could surround him with great talent and win a ring, I'd take him in a heartbeat. If he thought like that, he'd play like that and we'd be off to the races. Hawk

Hawk,

I pretty much agree with you. Love would cost too much in a trade. He is a free agent in 2015, let Minny trade him where they will for this coming season. We can keep our picks this summer and still have Love. Lets learn from Melo's mistake. The Knicks went all in to get him and now the team has nothing to go with him and he wants to leave.

gyso

by **NYCelt** Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:09 pm

sam wrote:One way or another, it's getting exciting, guys. Sort of sitting at a local beach waiting until that first spark ushers in the fireworks show. The only problem is that, a few years ago, our fireworks blew up and we haven't had any since. I'm hoping for much better things as Draft Day nears. Have to admit to being more excited about acquisitions other than those in the draft, but it should be a humdinger of a rodeo any way one looks at it.

Sam

Sam,

Was that literally misfiring Roman Candles or figurative Acie Rockets and Fab Crackers?

Regards

by **bobheckler** Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:13 pm

gyso wrote:Draft picks are worth zero (0) in trades. They do have cap holds associated with them once the draft has taken place. The cap holds only affect a team's salary cap number, which than affects which exception(s) can be used. Cap holds cannot be traded.

Bogans is under contract. It just is not guaranteed. A sign-and-trade is not needed in order to trade him. Once he is traded, the acquiring team can release him. They dump his entire salary. That is where his value lies. He can be combined with other player salaries in a trade.

Trade exceptions cannot be combined with anything in a trade. Our $10.3M TE can be used to trade for one player whose salary is close to $10M. I have read that Asik's $8.3M is close enough, but I cannot verify this with a trade checker. TE's can also be split up into multiple trades. We can use part of it in one trade and use the rest in another trade. Repeat as necessary until the $10.3M is used up or let remainder just fall off the books.

In an earlier thread, it was proposed that the $10.3M TE could be traded for Asik in one trade. In another trade, a bouquet of non-guaranteed contracts (Bogans plus two of either Pressey, Babbs and Johnson) could be traded for Lin. Supposedly, taking Lin was the cost of getting Asik. First round picks could be thrown into the second trade, the direction they go is the question. Is Houston hungry enough for some Melo so they send picks our way or are we hungry enough for some Omer that we send a pick their way?

gyso

gyso,

According to the NBA trade machine, http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine, I traded Omer Asik for Gerald Wallace and the trade was successful. Wallace's salary is $10.1M, which is under the $10.3M TPE. So, it works.

I like your way of thinking, I must say. If Morey covets Carmelo, the only way for that to happen is to either do a sign-and-trade with NYK (and the only players whose salaries would work would be Asik and Lin's, both, together, because Carmelo makes $21M. Would NYK take Lin back? I doubt it) or they sign him in free agency. Moving Asik without picking up any salary in return would take $15M off their books. Who else could do that besides Danny? Who else could just suck $15M off their payroll in one fell swoop and without Houston replacing it with anything? In exchange for that, Morey should GIVE US a draft pick.

bob

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by **gyso** Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:37 pm

Bob,

If we took both Asik and Lin, it would take $30M off their books and $16.6M off their salary cap. They get a huge salary dump with the ability to sign the free agent Melo. Many believe that that gift to them should net us a pick, as you say.

gyso

by **kdp59** Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:33 pm

http://www.csnne.com/boston-celtics/report-other-offers-love-beat-celtics?p=ya5nbcs&ocid=yahoo

and yet another "love report"!!!

I guess this will go on until a deal is signed off on.

by **bobheckler** Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:49 pm

kdp59 wrote:http://www.csnne.com/boston-celtics/report-other-offers-love-beat-celtics?p=ya5nbcs&ocid=yahoo

and yet another "love report"!!!

I guess this will go on until a deal is signed off on.

kdp,

My prediction is that it will get worse over the coming week as the witching hour approaches.

To me, it boils down to whether Flip Saunders wants players or picks. If he wants players, and if GSW is willing to include Klay Thompson or Phoenix is willing to give up a key player or two, then we have a problem. If he wants picks, we win. Gonna be a whole lotta gamin' goin' on this week and next.

bob

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by **112288** Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:02 pm

Good, now let's get on with the draft!

If it is not Love.......then it will be another star down the line. Cannot sit around and get your pockets picketed by Minny when they are in a very weak position with Love, and I doubt that the offers being suggested are real. Flip is being Flip. He has to look good in his new job or he'll get fired again! So it is liar's poker at its best!

112288

by **k_j_88** Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:18 pm

IF Love was a better defender, then maybe I could justify the "all means necessary" route... but clearly that isn't the case.

KJ

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