Steve Bulpett: If No Love, Rondo Likely To Be Traded

Berlin-T wrote:

k_j_88 wrote:

Berlin-T wrote:There's no way Stevens is going to be able to run his motion offense if Rondo is manning the point. Personally, I'd trade Rondo for a bag of peanuts. (I bit of hyperbole, I admit, but I'm so tired of Ronda hogging the ball)

You know what else, it's impossible to run the motion offense if the other 4 players aren't moving.

Do me a favor and watch how the San Antonio Spurs run their motion offense compared to the Celtics. You'll see that Popovich has his team moving around constantly, which makes it difficult for other teams to defend them (like Miami), meanwhile, Steven's guys don't do it for any extended period of time.

If you don't like Rondo, that's fine. But at least be fair in referencing how the motion offense should be run.


KJ

They seemed to move around pretty well when Pressey was manning the point, no?

Then you are suggesting two things:

1. Pressey is the better permanent solution to the point guard position

-and-

2. The players on the team that did run were more willing to run for Pressey but not for Rondo.

What is the motivation in that? Why would they only want to perform when Pressey is in, and then forget all semblance of motion offense discipline when Rondo is on the court? That doesn't make any sense. It's the team overall and the coaching's problem.

---

By they, that includes guys like Gerald Wallace, Kelly Olynyk, Chris Johnson, and Kris Humphries. Those were the main guys hustling damn near every single play, most often as the second unit. Look at the brunt of the roster; the majority of them were not hustling the court. That was never made a prerogative by Stevens.

Rondo played half the year. You know what's funny, they had a tempo problem before he came back. Guys were sitting in the corner waiting for a half-assed 3-point attempt or just standing around watching. The entire team was stagnant, not just Rondo.



KJ

k_j_88 wrote:

Berlin-T wrote:

k_j_88 wrote:

Berlin-T wrote:There's no way Stevens is going to be able to run his motion offense if Rondo is manning the point. Personally, I'd trade Rondo for a bag of peanuts. (I bit of hyperbole, I admit, but I'm so tired of Ronda hogging the ball)

You know what else, it's impossible to run the motion offense if the other 4 players aren't moving.

Do me a favor and watch how the San Antonio Spurs run their motion offense compared to the Celtics. You'll see that Popovich has his team moving around constantly, which makes it difficult for other teams to defend them (like Miami), meanwhile, Steven's guys don't do it for any extended period of time.

If you don't like Rondo, that's fine. But at least be fair in referencing how the motion offense should be run.


KJ

They seemed to move around pretty well when Pressey was manning the point, no?

Then you are suggesting two things:

1. Pressey is the better permanent solution to the point guard position

-and-

2. The players on the team that did run were more willing to run for Pressey but not for Rondo.

What is the motivation in that? Why would they only want to perform when Pressey is in, and then forget all semblance of motion offense discipline when Rondo is on the court? That doesn't make any sense. It's the team overall and the coaching's problem.

---

By they, that includes guys like Gerald Wallace, Kelly Olynyk, Chris Johnson, and Kris Humphries. Those were the main guys hustling damn near every single play, most often as the second unit. Look at the brunt of the roster; the majority of them were not hustling the court. That was never made a prerogative by Stevens.

Rondo played half the year. You know what's funny, they had a tempo problem before he came back. Guys were sitting in the corner waiting for a half-assed 3-point attempt or just standing around watching. The entire team was stagnant, not just Rondo.



KJ

Please don't put words in my mouth!

1. To notice that there is more motion when Pressey's playing the point is not the same as maintaining that he is a better permanent solution to the point guard position. Nowhere did I state that! I don't think that Rondo is the better permanent solution either.

2. That there was more motion to the offense when Pressey was playing point guard may make no sense to you, but it happened. And it happened over and over again.

Berlin-T wrote:
Please don't put words in my mouth!

1. To notice that there is more motion when Pressey's playing the point is not the same as maintaining that he is a better permanent solution to the point guard position. Nowhere did I state that! I don't think that Rondo is the better permanent solution either.

2. That there was more motion to the offense when Pressey was playing point guard may make no sense to you, but it happened. And it happened over and over again.

What you are saying does not make rational sense.

I mentioned the high-energy guys because they were the one making the offense work because they got out and ran the court. They are also second unit players. Rondo will typically spend most of his minutes with the starters; a collection of players that failed to execute the motion offense properly because there was no motion. You also failed to address the lack of a motion offense before Rondo's return. I'll assume this is because that one fact alone proves that correlation is not causation.

Why should we just simply blame Rondo and no one else? How about also we hold the other 4 players on the court accountable for not doing their jobs? How about we not absolve the coaching staff of responsibility for not getting their guys to execute the game plan?

Basketball is a team game, you know.


KJ

k_j_88 wrote:

Berlin-T wrote:
Please don't put words in my mouth!

1. To notice that there is more motion when Pressey's playing the point is not the same as maintaining that he is a better permanent solution to the point guard position. Nowhere did I state that! I don't think that Rondo is the better permanent solution either.

2. That there was more motion to the offense when Pressey was playing point guard may make no sense to you, but it happened. And it happened over and over again.

What you are saying does not make rational sense.

I mentioned the high-energy guys because they were the one making the offense work because they got out and ran the court. They are also second unit players. Rondo will typically spend most of his minutes with the starters; a collection of players that failed to execute the motion offense properly because there was no motion. You also failed to address the lack of a motion offense before Rondo's return. I'll assume this is because that one fact alone proves that correlation is not causation.

Why should we just simply blame Rondo and no one else? How about also we hold the other 4 players on the court accountable for not doing their jobs? How about we not absolve the coaching staff of responsibility for not getting their guys to execute the game plan?

Basketball is a team game, you know.


KJ

Here's what Kevin O'Connor wrote about Heinsohn's criticism concerning Rondo's play late last season (April 10th 2014):

And you know what, Tommy's right. This offense absolutely stinks late in the fourth period, and a very large chunk of the blame can be placed on the captain, Rajon Rondo. He has a tendency to slow the pace, which hinders the flow of Brad Stevens' offense.

"Psychologically, it's so important to keep the other team on its heels," explained Heinsohn. "Keep coming at them by attacking; don't let them feel like they're in the ball game."

"One of the things you do...is you pull [Rondo] out and put someone else in." -Tommy Heinsohn on how to fix Rajon Rondo's fourth quarter woes.

My very first remark which apparently you take offense to was that Stevens will not be able to run his motion offense as long is Rondo is manning the point. I stand by that although I would be delighted to be proven wrong next season. You certainly have a right to disagree with me. Questioning my ability to think rationally is out of bounds as far as I'm concerned.

Berlin-T wrote:
My very first remark which apparently you take offense to was that Stevens will not be able to run his motion offense as long is Rondo is manning the point. I stand by that although I would be delighted to be proven wrong next season. You certainly have a right to disagree with me.

The reason why the motion offense failed has a lot more to do with than just Rondo. I'll show you what I mean.

1. Steven's lacks good ball handlers to drive and dish.

Other than Rondo, which players are skilled at ball handling? Not Jeff Green. Not Brandon Bass. Not Avery Bradley. Not Jared Sullinger, and so on. The only ones that do are Rondo and Pressey, but Pressey is still growing as a player and needs to cut down on some of his mistakes (overall he is good, though).

I'll reference San Antonio once again. Parker, Ginobili, Diaw, Green, Leonard, Mills, and pretty must the majority of their roster can drive into the lane and dish or make the layup. This makes the motion offense possible because they have more than one decent ball handler that can run the play.

2. Steven's lacks the perimeter shooters.

Other than Bradley and Olynyk, both pretty good 3-point shooters, there aren't any good outside shooters on this team. Green is a poor shooter from the outside. Sullinger has been encouraged to take ill-advised threes by the coaching staff. Brandon Bass is a mid-range guy. Pressey can't hit a shot to save his life. And I don't think I need to go any further down the list to prove this point, either.

And again, look at San Antonio. In addition to ball handlers, they also have deadly shooters that will make the outside shot more often than not due to the spacing their offense provides after breaking down the defense. This was highly evident with the efficient manner they dismantled the Heat in.

Berlin-T wrote:
Questioning my ability to think rationally is out of bounds as far as I'm concerned.

I never said you personally don't think rationally. I specifically pointed to the argument you presented, which I feel is not rational.

You have to examine this issue from every side as I have. There is plenty of blame to go around and if we are only going to blame one guy we will never fix the problem in full. Sure, Ainge can go out and grab a different PG, but what good will that do without the other shooters and ball handlers to make the most out of each possession? We'll still be seeing virtually the same problems as this year.


KJ

KJ...correct about the lack of ball handlers and shooters, though Kelly is a good ball handler for a 4, but then, when does a 4 handle the ball? I like his passing a lot, but to which outside shooters does he have to pass?

worcester wrote:KJ...correct about the lack of ball handlers and shooters, though Kelly is a good ball handler for a 4, but then, when does a 4 handle the ball? I like his passing a lot, but to which outside shooters does he have to pass?

I must sound like a broken record, but I saw the Spurs using Diaw as the initiator and he'd handle the drive for the pass or the layup. Kelly's ball handling is solid enough that he could be used in the same way. His passing is also pretty good so I'm not worried about how Kelly fits into the system.


KJ

KJ

You make some good points. However I'm of the opinion that even if Stevens had San Antonio's lineup (minus their point) they wouldn't be able to run a motion offense because the ball would still be stuck in Rondo's hands. That's my opinion and as I already said, I'd be delighted to be proven wrong in the coming season. We'll just have to wait and see. (Or maybe not if Rondo is traded)

Berlin-T

Rondo did dominate the ball too much, and he did walk it up too slowly. This is true, but he's also a very savvy player, and with the right players alongside, I trust he'll be appropriate to Brad's system. Or else he will be gone.

worcester wrote:Rondo did dominate the ball too much, and he did walk it up too slowly. This is true, but he's also a very savvy player, and with the right players alongside, I trust he'll be appropriate to Brad's system. Or else he will be gone.

I think it's also fair to say that, while Rondo did have the ball in his hands too long, that this creates the need for guys to keep moving. If you aren't fighting to get open, why are you on the court?



KJ

Before this season, my friend MikeDfromNP (who used to be on BDC) and I would often marvel at how little motion there was in the Celtics offense and that Rondo was obviously frustrated by that. I can't help but think Brad is an answer to Rajon's prayers, although he surely did consternate Brad one game late this season with his dawdling pace in the 4th Q.

worcester wrote:Before this season, my friend MikeDfromNP (who used to be on BDC) and I would often marvel at how little motion there was in the Celtics offense and that Rondo was obviously frustrated by that. I can't help but think Brad is an answer to Rajon's prayers, although he surely did consternate Brad one game late this season with his dawdling pace in the 4th Q.

Brad should also look into improving his substitution patterns.

The one thing people easily forget is the fact that playing up-tempo basketball requires a greater amount of energy. This would require more substitutions. Rotate the players more often to keep them fresher, and play deeper into the bench; that way players become much more accustomed to hustling at that pace, and more players will gain experience and can step in if there are any injuries/trades.



KJ

So KJ, is it your opinion that, when playing a constantly uptempo game, players tend to pace themselves unless they're given frequent rest?  Ironic, isn't is, that this would be the exact opposite of what should be happening in uptempo ball, in which constant pressure has to be put on the opponents' defense the way the Spurs did to Miami.

Sam

sam wrote:So KJ, is it your opinion that, when playing a constantly uptempo game, players tend to pace themselves unless they're given frequent rest?  Ironic, isn't is, that this would be the exact opposite of what should be happening in uptempo ball, in which constant pressure has to be put on the opponents' defense the way the Spurs did to Miami.

Sam

Sam,


I can't speak to the inherent psychology of each individual player. However, I would say it's fair for a coach to tell his guys "go out there and outhustle them for 5 minutes." That's just under half a quarter. Then switch in fresh legs and repeat the process. Otherwise, fatigue does set in.

I looked at the San Antonio-Miami box scores, and San Antonio played a deeper bench and were able to maintain constant pressure. That is the main area I'm trying to get at.



KJ