Now THAT was a screw job...

Since no game recap post has been started yet, I may as well leave this here.

I understand what people are going to say in the aftermath of the game last night.

-The Celtics went away from what got them the lead down the stretch and started to run isolation plays again – that is true

-The Celtics lost their defensive focus, stopped double teaming Joe Johnson and let him go off in the 2nd half – this is also true

-The Celtics bench came up lame, they never re-inserted Scal who was playing very well in the first half – etc etc – this is true as well.

BUT, the fact of the matter is that the refs totally turned this game in favor of the Hawks. They made a BAD CALL on Glen Davis, they overreacted to Doc getting upset, they compounded that by calling a technical on Armond Hill (who doesn’t say TWO WORDS to them all season long), and were calling a disproportionate number of fouls on the Celtics and not making those same calls against Atlanta.

Atlanta shot 33 FT – Boston shot 18…..REALLY? Boston drove to the basket as often as Atlanta did, if not more. And the refs put their whistles in their pockets on the Celtics end.

Lots of reasons why the Celtics lost had nothing to do with the Refs….but with Boston up by 10, they gave Atlanta a 7 point play – and that turned the tide in their favor.

Piss poor job by the worst refs in professional sports.

I really don't like using the refs as an excuse (in fact, I can't remember ever doing it) but last night was the worst officiated basketball game I've seen in a long time. Virtually every time a Celtic cleanly stripped someone of the ball they got a foul call. Rondo thrown out of bounds bringing the ball upcourt - no call on Atlanta. Scal getting all ball on a blocked shot, gets called for a foul. Ray driving to the hoop and getting bonked on the head while making a shot, no and 1. Baby fouling Marvin Williams with his hand barely grazing the guy's neck while going for the ball (I've watched the replay closely several times) and he ridiculously gets a flagrant, resulting in Doc losing it and more FT's awarded. I could list at least half a dozen more.

Game, set, match. Refs won. Boston loses.

Very unpleasant night.

Get back soon Rasheed. Bad time to be out now with KG projected by Doc to be out ANOTHER 10 days or so. Going to be rough sledding for the next several games (and let's hope that's all it is).

Seems all year we've been getting lame calls,Steve what are you doing up so early?

Shelden had a good play where there should have been a jump ball too.

To answer your question cow, not sure. But I am. Going back to bed soon.

Would probably be sleeping soundly now if we had won last night...

We can hope all we want Steve, and I agree with you that the C's got none the better of it from the zebras. However, it is becomming increasingly evident that this team was constructed like a house of cards. Too many aging pieces to the structure placed in foundation places for cornerstone purposes with far too many cracks in the armour. The C's will resemble more of a revolving door from this point forward more people in and out of the line up than that revolving door at Macy's at Christmas time. Unfortunately there likely won't be any presents under our tree come June. Now 'Sheed s added to the list of the infirmed. The Celtics are a MASH unit instead of a basketball team. Ainge has no idea how or where to reach Hawkeye or Trapper John. Doc once told these guys, "He who angers you, controls you." Salvatore had Doc on a short leash last night. It's quite unlikely that all team components will EVER be healthy at the same time or even long enough to develop some semblance of continuity for the team to mesh together. Now there's talk of the Lakers getting Bosh! Why do the Celtics not take the extreme measures to remedy a situation long term, rather than trying to put a band aid where a turniquet is needed. I read where a writer has likened the Celts plight to the C's of the late 80's relinquishing control of the East to the Pistons, the 2010 Hawks are the later day Pistons. The Hawks are a dangerous team, young, hungry with the talent and cinfidence to come out of the East to play the Lakers for the title. I bet Joe Johnson gets more help from his teammates than Bryant gets from his. I wish GYSO would explain why the Lakers can use their money to do whatever they want, and the C's are hamstrung by huge contracts and the salary cap!-MD.

First

I think the call on Davis was fine. He had a friggen arm around the guys neck. If you can't make a play on the ball let um go.

As for the refs over reaction, I have no idea what was said.

Poor excuse to blaim this one on the Zebras at all.
We did not execute in the final quarter. Pounded the ball in iso, with Doc gone someone forgot to tell Tibbs there are players on the bench.

Someone needed to quard Johnson, Allen is to small, Pierce to tired, why not geve TA a chance in the 4th. Or Walker for that matter, could not have been any worse.

just my 2 cents but the refs are a lame excuse IMHO.

beat

Just my opinion.

Well I was at the Garden last night, and to discount the hand the refs played in this game would be very naive. I think MrKleen got it right in his analysis. There were plenty of thing the C's should have done better in the second half, but the officiating was horrendous. I've been to a lot of games, both regular season and playoff, and I have never seen a crowd so angry. I thought we were going to see another Christmas day in LA epsiode. Even the guy answering trivia questions during a timeout couldn't stop himself from commenting on it.

Beat -

If threads like this were a common occurrence, I would agree….but they are not.

Last night was THE WORSE officiated game I have seen in a long time and the refs played a big role in turning the tide of the game towards the Hawks.

The Celtics were at home and driving the ball to the hoop on a consistent basis, and still had a 15 FT discrepancy. Give me a break.

Kelly,

I realize you were there however to say (as others seem to say) that this game swung on the Davis call to me is an excuse and a poor one. I watched the replay many times although Davis made a swipe at the ball with his right arm while his left is around the guys shoulder and neck, perhaps he did not realize it, I do not know but it was there. I have no issue with that call.

As I said Davis should just have let him go If he had no angle to play the ball. As for the T's that followed again what was said is unknown to me.

We still had the lead after this and had chances to expand on it. After Doc was tossed how many subs played? We went ISO too much, we allowed the shot clock to run down to much, we quit penitrating as we had done before, we could not stop Johnson. None of this had anything to do with bad calls.

So call me naive I guess, but we let this one slip away by our own poor effort in the second half esp the forth quarter.

beat

Mrkleen

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Being shorthanded we should have used more bench.
Anyway poor effort in the final quarter no matter how you slice it.

beat

beat wrote:Mrkleen

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Being shorthanded we should have used more bench.
Anyway poor effort in the final quarter no matter how you slice it.

beat

Beat

These are not mutually exclusive ideas.

I can agree that Coach Tibs mismanaged the bench, played Pierce and Allen too much, and they didn’t execute down the stretch – and still think the game was officiated unfairly.

I think in the final analysis – Atlanta may have won the game without the call on Davis and the technical fouls on Doc and Coach Hill. But you know what, no one is paying to see Bennett Salvatore or any of those other donkeys in black and white. Let the players decide the outcome of games ON THE COURT

Beat you are right about not helping ourselves out much after the bad calls, but to discount it entirely is what I have issues with. Do you think that if Doc wasn't ejected that he would have kept the same 5 guys on the court for the entire 4th quarter? I don't. I think he would have steadied the ship with some timely time outs and play calls. My issue is more about Docs ejection than the flagrant foul. I don't think it was deserved, I think it was the ref reacting to the angry crowd. He saw Doc throw his arms up in the air and just tossed him. This wasn't Doc getting a T and then not letting it go, it was all one action and it happened so quick.

Kelly Mrkleen

I just don't like excuses. If we had played well and lost is one thing. We had our chances.

To me only if you have done everything (or nearly everything possible) within the scope of your ability, then still lost on several "bad" calls is one thing.

The C's quit playing the way they had period.

I hear excuses so much at work perhaps when I hear them here it rings me the wrong way. Hey I've done my share of hollaring at the Zebras too but I also have reffed a bit and I can only imagine reffing at that level.

So the refs made some bad calls, we'd best learn how to deal with it.
Perhaps if we don't turn the ball over out front and allow the Davis play to happen in the first place...........................who knows.

Of course all this IMHO.

beat

You comment about making "excuses" and then leave us with 5 of your own.

We deal just fine with bad calls.....you should not have a 15 FT and 3 technical foul discrepancy AT HOME...sorry, that isnt right. No excuse needed.

As I said just agree to disagree.

Nothing personal whatsoever.

In my opinion we stopped doing things that worked well for whatever the reason. And Atlanta took advantage.

By the way what were my 5 excuses anyway? ISO , pounding the ball till the Shot clock was nearly gone to often, not having anyone to quard Johnson adequately, not playing subs enough so that we could be a bit fresher when it mattered?

Those are excuses WE can/could do something about, are they not?
But we can't do a damn thing about the calls we get or do not get.

Time to let this go I think.

beat

Beat, I guess there's a fine line between people's perception of excuses and reasons. Do I think the officiating was the sole reason for the loss? Absolutely not. Do I think it played a part? I sure do! I don't think it's exclusive, I think the C's played poorly in the second half and I also think the refs "played" poorly. I think without the momentum swing in ATL's favor that came with all the T's and Doc's ejection , the C's would have pulled this one out. Obviously neither of us can prove our points either way, but I guess that's why it's an opinion! I respectfully disagree with yours on this one and I apologize for insinuating that your opinion was naive.

The game-on thread has now been posted. I'm glad I waited so this could be a separate thread.

Sam

mrkleen09 wrote:

BUT, the fact of the matter is that the refs totally turned this game in favor of the Hawks. They made a BAD CALL on Glen Davis

I only saw highlights, so I don't know how the rest of the game was called, but when a player brings his arm down around another player's head and/or neck, that is always going to get called as a flagrant. Especially when it is a big fouling a smaller guy going to the hoop. 99 times out of a 100 that gets called a flagrant.

And it looked like Doc threw some kind of play-card or something at the refs or onto the court when he blew up. That is also a guaranteed technical.

Like I said, I don't know about the rest of the game, but those are two pretty standard calls.

Sky, Doc didn't throw a play card. He threw his arms up in the air, there was a play card in his hand, but he never let it go. It's not as though he got a T and continued to argue with the refs, he didn't even have a chance to do that. He was immediately ejected. Was his outburst T worthy? Yes. Ejection worthy? No way.

Kelly

We are all disappointed at the outcome. I guess it is safe to say that we all agree on that.

That said what part in getting to that result is part to the players and part to the officials. Guess it's splitting hairs a bit and maybe perhaps why I love sports where "officiating" has little or no bearing on the result.
I love track and field and cross country, and yes there are rules and once in a while they come into play, but for the most part when the gun goes off if I get to the finish line before you I win. Simple. Or I jump the highest, throw the shot the furtherest ect. Little is subject to debate or officials.

Hoops is a whole different species. I have many friends whom officiate at the local High School level of which I did 25-30 years ago. Believe me I know I missed some calls, thing is sometimes you are so close to the action you don't have a good a view as people in the seats and things get missed. After officiating for a few years I have much more respect for the 'local" guys trying to do their best. I can only imagine the difficulty of refing the NBA game. I believe that our local officials try to do their best, some are better than others of course but to believe otherwise at least in the high school arena sends a wrong message to the kids, IMHO.


Last night they called a travel on an Atlanta player on a fast break as he dished to a teamate for a dunk. I said to Marcus at the time if that was Kobe ot Bron making the pass would a travel had been called?

Intersting to consider and that is a big part of the issue. The apparent double standard that applies to "stars" and others. The league and even big college hoops have gotten away from basic rules that when I played (sat actually) were called. Palming and travel come to mind first of all.

As mentioned about "home" calls, where is it written that the home team should get these? I guess the trend may seem that way but certainly there is nothing in writing. And when things don't go well are we to rant and rave or try to play better as a team.

I hope this makes a little sense.

Atlanta played better when it mattered the most.

beat

Beat...I agree this is NOTHING personal at all....just a difference of opinion.

However, I still want to clarify the flow of things for those who were not there or didnt watch on TV.

Atlanta was down by anywhere between 8 and 14 points - consistently at the start of the 3rd quarter. Joe Johnson was having a good game, but Crawford was bricking it up – and the Atlanta front line of Williams, Smith and Horford were like 4 for 20 or something like that.

The Celtics were up by 10 when Baby fouled Crawford. The refs gave the Hawks 5 free points (4 free throws - which they converted 3, and the ball - which they also converted) and ejected the Celtics head coach.

Celtics came down, missed a shot and the Hawks hit there next shot to pull to within 1 point.

From that point forward, YES the Hawks executed better and outplayed the Celtics down the stretch. But how anyone can think those 5 point and the loss of their coach didn’t MAJORLY effect the game is beyond me.

Beat, I do agree with a lot of what you said. Live action calls like travelling, out of bounds, fouls, palming and such are easy to miss. Fans would be crazy to expect the refs to get it right every time.

I've never mentioned anything about "home" calls, or even the foul descrepancy last night. Doc's ejection is the thing that I feel most impacted the results of last nights game, and I don't believe it was warranted.

I think that the refs get tired of hearing the players bitch and moan on every call and that eventually human nature takes over and they react by showing the players who's "the man". I don't think they are making things up, if they call a foul I do think it's probably a foul, but I also believe that when they get fed up they start looking for reasons to blow the whistle. This is NBA wide, not just against the C's so don't think I'm just being a conspiracy theorist. The energy and the noise in the Garden last night had me all riled up, why should I believe it doesn't have a similiar effect on the refs?

Mrkleen

This first action led to a series of actions.

First: Did BB make a stupid play in attemoting to stop the shot?
My opinion YES. Either let the guy go or play the ball.

Second: Was the call itself on BB wrong?
Opinion: mine NO, giving 2 shots and possession was fine.

After that, the T's. Did Doc "lose" his cool, should he have stopped after the first one was called? Did he hae a chance? what was said to whom and by whom?

Davis with (IMHO) with a not so bright play put into motion a series of events that led to the loss of most of a 10 point lead.
Certainly it affected the game at that point and momentum was lost but we still had over 12 minutes to play and unfortunately were unable to do so at a very effective level.

When faced with this adversity how did we respond?

I guess that bothers me a whole lot more than the calls themselves, right or wrongly made.

beat

Kelly

I remember saying to Marcus and on the game on thread after Doc' ejection that I hoped they didn't hand out green fingers to the fans before the game.

Fans were loud, but behaved well and let their fellings known appropriately.

(unlike the resent display out west)

beat