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POST GAME - TORONTO - HOME
by 112288 Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:07 pm
NEXT GAME - FRIDAY - HOME - INDY - 7:30PM
Raptors 110, C's 107: Lowry lifts Toronto
By Chris Forsberg | ESPNBoston.com
BOSTON -- Reflecting on Monday's loss in Dallas before Wednesday's game, Boston Celtics coach Brad Stevens noted: "Dallas played great. The offense was spectacular to watch. It stunk that I was sitting over on the other sideline."
Stevens' thoughtful players tried to replicate the experience by erupting for 35 first-quarter points while shooting a blistering 78.9 percent in the frame. Boston connected on 11 of its first 12 shots and its only miss was put back by Jared Sullinger.
Alas, maybe to even things out, the Celtics also let the visiting Raptors surge from a double-digit deficit. And, unfortunately for Stevens, it still stunk to be on the Boston sideline as the shorthanded Raptors rode the hot hand of Kyle Lowry (35 points) while emerging with a 110-107 triumph at TD Garden.
• Down to the Wire: The Celtics, plagued by turnovers over the final three quarters, were down eight with 5:35 to play, but produced a flurry of late-game 3-pointers including one from Marcus Smart with 1:10 remaining to tie it at 105. Smart would get stripped soon after by Kyle Lowry, who fed a trailing DeMar DeRozan who posterized Kelly Olynyk en route to a three-point play that ultimately helped the Raptors prevail.
• Lowry Lowdown: The Raptors might have been playing without their starting frontcourt of Amir Johnson and Jonas Valanciunas, but Lowry more than shouldered the load. Lowry connected on 12-of-17 shots while adding four rebounds, three assists, and two steals over 35:30.
• Rondo Report: Rondo produced his 30th career triple double (including the postseason) while posting 13 points, 15 assists, and 10 rebounds. His night was only slightly offset by five turnovers on a night Boston kicked the ball away 28 times (leading to 36 points for the Raptors).
• First quarter in focus: Seven different players scored for Boston -- five of which were perfect from the field -- including Sullinger who topped the team with eight points on 4-of-4 shooting. The Celtics generated 20 points in the paint (compared to Toronto's
and Jeff Green provided some of the defense that helped key the spurt by blocking three shots (including a highlight-worthy chasedown of Lou Williams).
• Loose balls: The Celtics went with a 10-man rotation, but stayed small much of the night to matchup with Toronto. That meant three-guard lineups while Tyler Zeller played only five minutes (the least of any reserve). ... Green finished with a team-high 20 points on 9-of-16 shooting. Sulligner (19 points, 16 rebounds) and Olynyk (18 points, 13 rebounds) added double-doubles.
• What it means: The Celtics fall to 1-3 and will be kicking themselves for shooting themselves in the foot with turnovers. This was a chance to take advantage of a shorthanded division rival, but Boston couldn't sustain its level of play after the first quarter.
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5 THINGS WE LEARNED IN THE CELTICS’ LOSS TO THE RAPTORS
WEEI
By Julian Edlow
Rajon Rondo couldn’t lead the Celtics past the Raptors Wednesday night. (Getty Images)
After an unsuccessful two-game trip to Texas, the Celtics returned home to the TD Garden on Wednesday to face off against the Raptors. Toronto came into Boston as the Atlantic Division favorites, sporting a record of 3-1 with its only loss coming on the road in Miami.
The Raptors would take a nail-biter from the Celtics, 110-107, Wednesday night as Jeff Green missed a potential game tying 3-pointer at the buzzer.
Contributing the most to the Celtics’ third loss would be 27 turnovers for Brad Stevens‘ team. (For a complete box score, click here.)
Here is what we learned in the C’s loss:
HOT START
The C’s came out blistering hot at home once again, connecting on their first seven field goal attempts and finishing the first quarter shooting 15-for-19 from the floor ‘ good for 78.9 percent.
The Celtics also held a rebounding edge of 14-2 over the Raptors at the end of the first frame, which translated to a 35-23 lead. The only thing seemingly keeping the Raptors in the game was their 12 points off of six Celtics’ turnovers.
THE CELTICS ATTACKED THE RIM
Starting big men Amir Johnson and Jonas Valanciunas were out for the Raptors, and the Celtics clearly took advantage. Right off the bat Boston racked up 16 points in the paint during the first six minutes of the game.
SECOND AND THIRD QUARTER COLLAPSE
The Raptors fought their way back into the game during the second quarter by outscoring the Celtics 31-22. But most of the damage was done late. Toronto finished the quarter by scoring 20 points in the last six minutes of the half to go into the locker room down by just three points.
The Raptors got a buzzer-beater at the end of the third quarter to finally take the lead, 88-86. Kyle Lowry did most of the damage in the middle quarters; he had 23 points in the second and third periods alone and 31 total heading into the fourth.
RAJON RONDO TRIPLE-DOUBLE
Rondo had been in the neighborhood of a triple-double in all three of the Celtics’ previous games this season, averaging 8.0 points, 8.7 boards and 11.7 assists in those contests. He had his double-double half way through the third quarter with 11 rebounds and 10 assists, allowing Rondo to finally come through with his first triple-double of the season on Wednesday. He finished with 13 points, 10 rebounds and matched a season-high with 15 assists.
STARTERS ALL SCORED IN DOUBLE FIGURES
The Celtics’ starters all contributed a balanced effort across the board in the game led by Jeff Green‘s 20 points. Jared Sullinger had 19, Kelly Olynyk 18, and Avery Bradley 16 to go with Rondo’s triple-double. Sullinger and Olynyk also both had double-doubles with 16 and 13 rebounds, respectively. Marcus Smart also contributed 12 points off the bench, playing key minutes down the stretch.
112288
Raptors 110, C's 107: Lowry lifts Toronto
By Chris Forsberg | ESPNBoston.com
BOSTON -- Reflecting on Monday's loss in Dallas before Wednesday's game, Boston Celtics coach Brad Stevens noted: "Dallas played great. The offense was spectacular to watch. It stunk that I was sitting over on the other sideline."
Stevens' thoughtful players tried to replicate the experience by erupting for 35 first-quarter points while shooting a blistering 78.9 percent in the frame. Boston connected on 11 of its first 12 shots and its only miss was put back by Jared Sullinger.
Alas, maybe to even things out, the Celtics also let the visiting Raptors surge from a double-digit deficit. And, unfortunately for Stevens, it still stunk to be on the Boston sideline as the shorthanded Raptors rode the hot hand of Kyle Lowry (35 points) while emerging with a 110-107 triumph at TD Garden.
• Down to the Wire: The Celtics, plagued by turnovers over the final three quarters, were down eight with 5:35 to play, but produced a flurry of late-game 3-pointers including one from Marcus Smart with 1:10 remaining to tie it at 105. Smart would get stripped soon after by Kyle Lowry, who fed a trailing DeMar DeRozan who posterized Kelly Olynyk en route to a three-point play that ultimately helped the Raptors prevail.
• Lowry Lowdown: The Raptors might have been playing without their starting frontcourt of Amir Johnson and Jonas Valanciunas, but Lowry more than shouldered the load. Lowry connected on 12-of-17 shots while adding four rebounds, three assists, and two steals over 35:30.
• Rondo Report: Rondo produced his 30th career triple double (including the postseason) while posting 13 points, 15 assists, and 10 rebounds. His night was only slightly offset by five turnovers on a night Boston kicked the ball away 28 times (leading to 36 points for the Raptors).
• First quarter in focus: Seven different players scored for Boston -- five of which were perfect from the field -- including Sullinger who topped the team with eight points on 4-of-4 shooting. The Celtics generated 20 points in the paint (compared to Toronto's
and Jeff Green provided some of the defense that helped key the spurt by blocking three shots (including a highlight-worthy chasedown of Lou Williams). • Loose balls: The Celtics went with a 10-man rotation, but stayed small much of the night to matchup with Toronto. That meant three-guard lineups while Tyler Zeller played only five minutes (the least of any reserve). ... Green finished with a team-high 20 points on 9-of-16 shooting. Sulligner (19 points, 16 rebounds) and Olynyk (18 points, 13 rebounds) added double-doubles.
• What it means: The Celtics fall to 1-3 and will be kicking themselves for shooting themselves in the foot with turnovers. This was a chance to take advantage of a shorthanded division rival, but Boston couldn't sustain its level of play after the first quarter.
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5 THINGS WE LEARNED IN THE CELTICS’ LOSS TO THE RAPTORS
WEEI
By Julian Edlow
Rajon Rondo couldn’t lead the Celtics past the Raptors Wednesday night. (Getty Images)
After an unsuccessful two-game trip to Texas, the Celtics returned home to the TD Garden on Wednesday to face off against the Raptors. Toronto came into Boston as the Atlantic Division favorites, sporting a record of 3-1 with its only loss coming on the road in Miami.
The Raptors would take a nail-biter from the Celtics, 110-107, Wednesday night as Jeff Green missed a potential game tying 3-pointer at the buzzer.
Contributing the most to the Celtics’ third loss would be 27 turnovers for Brad Stevens‘ team. (For a complete box score, click here.)
Here is what we learned in the C’s loss:
HOT START
The C’s came out blistering hot at home once again, connecting on their first seven field goal attempts and finishing the first quarter shooting 15-for-19 from the floor ‘ good for 78.9 percent.
The Celtics also held a rebounding edge of 14-2 over the Raptors at the end of the first frame, which translated to a 35-23 lead. The only thing seemingly keeping the Raptors in the game was their 12 points off of six Celtics’ turnovers.
THE CELTICS ATTACKED THE RIM
Starting big men Amir Johnson and Jonas Valanciunas were out for the Raptors, and the Celtics clearly took advantage. Right off the bat Boston racked up 16 points in the paint during the first six minutes of the game.
SECOND AND THIRD QUARTER COLLAPSE
The Raptors fought their way back into the game during the second quarter by outscoring the Celtics 31-22. But most of the damage was done late. Toronto finished the quarter by scoring 20 points in the last six minutes of the half to go into the locker room down by just three points.
The Raptors got a buzzer-beater at the end of the third quarter to finally take the lead, 88-86. Kyle Lowry did most of the damage in the middle quarters; he had 23 points in the second and third periods alone and 31 total heading into the fourth.
RAJON RONDO TRIPLE-DOUBLE
Rondo had been in the neighborhood of a triple-double in all three of the Celtics’ previous games this season, averaging 8.0 points, 8.7 boards and 11.7 assists in those contests. He had his double-double half way through the third quarter with 11 rebounds and 10 assists, allowing Rondo to finally come through with his first triple-double of the season on Wednesday. He finished with 13 points, 10 rebounds and matched a season-high with 15 assists.
STARTERS ALL SCORED IN DOUBLE FIGURES
The Celtics’ starters all contributed a balanced effort across the board in the game led by Jeff Green‘s 20 points. Jared Sullinger had 19, Kelly Olynyk 18, and Avery Bradley 16 to go with Rondo’s triple-double. Sullinger and Olynyk also both had double-doubles with 16 and 13 rebounds, respectively. Marcus Smart also contributed 12 points off the bench, playing key minutes down the stretch.
112288
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Re: POST GAME - TORONTO - HOME
by 112288 Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:18 pm
Simple - Turnovers and we stood around and did not move the ball after a great first quarter and part of the second quarter.
No easy answers as a young team learning has to play through this period.
Stevens seems to be sticking with the starting 5 for now and probably will start tweaking his line up as he see's who is and who is not.
Dam....give this kid Young some minutes please!
112288
112288
No easy answers as a young team learning has to play through this period.
Stevens seems to be sticking with the starting 5 for now and probably will start tweaking his line up as he see's who is and who is not.
Dam....give this kid Young some minutes please!
112288
112288
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Join date : 2009-10-16
Re: POST GAME - TORONTO - HOME
by Sam Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:03 am
For a while, Bob Heckler and I have been doing a fair amount of posting on the Game-on Threads. As you all know, Bob is away for three and a half months. And, for the next two weeks, Sally and I will be traveling by car to and from Florida. (Sort of a whirlwind trip to three widely dispersed locations.) I won’t have access to Celtics games on tv (streaming video just doesn’t do it for me).
I really appreciate the diverse participation on last night’s Game-on Thread, and I hope you’ll see fit to continue. I’m going to try an experiment when the social coast is clear. I’ll follow the games via the box scores and by asking questions of those who are on the Game-on Thread. And I’ll post on the Post-game Thread as though I had seen the game, and you guys can tell me where I’m off the mark. Bob and I usually take different approaches, as he focus on player-by-player analysis and I tend to make more general, team-oriented observations. I’ll try to blend the two perspectives in Bob’s absence.
It isn’t perfect, but it’s the best I can do to try to pull my weight while on this trip.
As for the game vs. the Raptors, it was over by the time we settled in at a motel in Pennsylvania. So I’ll attempt some observations based on the box score, and I hope you’ll feel free to correct what amounts to a lot of semi-informed guesswork on my part.
• First of all, IS IT POSSIBLE that (1) the Celtics outrebounded their opponent by more than double (55-24....16 by Sully, 13 by Kelly and 10 by Rondo, (2) grabbed 49% of the available offensive rebounds AND 86% of the available defensive rebounds, (3) shot 51% from the field, 39% from beyond the arc, (4) placed six players in double figures, (5) outscored the Raptors 52-44 in the paint, (6) got a triple double by their primary playmaker and LOST THE GAME?. Those of you who saw the game will have to fill me in on how that was possible. I suspect a lot of the comments will involve the 27 turnovers that allowed the Raptors to take more shots than the Celtics did and poor transition defense that allowed 19 fast break points from the Northern Exposure guys.
• Speaking of turnovers, you're seldom going to win when each of your two floor generals commits five in one single game.
• One indicator of chemistry on a team, in my opinion, is how spread out the assists are. Another is what percentage of made field goals are assisted. Of course there are many more factors involved, but these two are relatively easy to track statistically. My benchmark indicators of pretty good chemistry are (1) no single Celtic should have more than 50% of the team’s assists and (2) the team should assist on at least two-thirds of its made field goals. On both counts, the Celtics fell short last night. Rondo had 68% of his team’s assists, and the Celtics assisted on only 55% of their made field goals.
• The starters registered a combined +5, while the bench was a collective -8 for the night. The bench (with the exception of Marcus Smart) is looking rather anemic lately, which is probably why the starters were allotted 72% of the team’s minutes. First, Turner started falling by the wayside, and now Thornton seems to be joining him. Six points, three rebounds, and one assist between them in a combined 27 minutes last night.
• The best luck Brad has had with this team offensively involves small ball. I started the season assuming that Smart would split his time between the two guard positions. Now it appears he’ll be splitting his time between the two wing positions.
• The more Smart plays the “3” position, the more Turner, Thornton and Pressey are left to contend for the backup guard roles. Brad has apparently all but forgotten about Pressey. And, while perhaps not as bad as initially feared defensively. Turner and Thornton must contribute much more than a collective six points, three rebounds and one assist in a combined 27 minutes to offset their mediocre defense.
• I had been high on Thornton as a sixth man candidate, largely based on his ability to generate points in a hurry. But that doesn’t seem to be happening lately, and my sense is that he’s getting fewer touches per minute than earlier in the season and the preseason. Right now, it looks as though Smart is by far the best sixth man on the team. Just as Havlicek’s defense made him indispensible at any of three positions, Smart may be taking the same route. Now, if he can just come close to duplicating the offensive weaponry developed over time by John, he’ll be extremely valuable because he’s more of a disrupter than even Avery Bradley at his best.
• The more time spent by Smart at SF, the less time he’ll be spending at guard positions. And last night, the Rsptors’ backcourt accounted for 76 (or 69%) of the team’s 110 points.
• So far, Jeff Green has not scored fewer than 17 points in any game. What does he have to do to shake the inconsistent tag? Once again last night, in yet another demonstration of aggressiveness, he took more shots than anyone else on the team (connecting on 78% of his two point attempts and 29% of his three point attempts). Last night, the Celts had three blocks, and Jeff had all of them.
• I’m totally flummoxed about Zeller. He looks pretty good to me, defends the center position better than anyone else on the team, and has displayed decent offensive potential, especially in the pick-and-roll game. And yet he doesn’t get enough minutes (6 last night) to enable him to attain any rhythm. Brad claims that defense must be the catalyst for this team. And yet, when it comes time to allocating minutes at center, he sticks pretty much with guys who are offensively, rather than defensively, gifted.
• At least they got off to a good start in this game. They're not going to accomplish everything all at once. And learning how to put pressure on the other team from the outset is a pretty good asset.
Go Celtics,
Sam
I really appreciate the diverse participation on last night’s Game-on Thread, and I hope you’ll see fit to continue. I’m going to try an experiment when the social coast is clear. I’ll follow the games via the box scores and by asking questions of those who are on the Game-on Thread. And I’ll post on the Post-game Thread as though I had seen the game, and you guys can tell me where I’m off the mark. Bob and I usually take different approaches, as he focus on player-by-player analysis and I tend to make more general, team-oriented observations. I’ll try to blend the two perspectives in Bob’s absence.
It isn’t perfect, but it’s the best I can do to try to pull my weight while on this trip.
As for the game vs. the Raptors, it was over by the time we settled in at a motel in Pennsylvania. So I’ll attempt some observations based on the box score, and I hope you’ll feel free to correct what amounts to a lot of semi-informed guesswork on my part.
• First of all, IS IT POSSIBLE that (1) the Celtics outrebounded their opponent by more than double (55-24....16 by Sully, 13 by Kelly and 10 by Rondo, (2) grabbed 49% of the available offensive rebounds AND 86% of the available defensive rebounds, (3) shot 51% from the field, 39% from beyond the arc, (4) placed six players in double figures, (5) outscored the Raptors 52-44 in the paint, (6) got a triple double by their primary playmaker and LOST THE GAME?. Those of you who saw the game will have to fill me in on how that was possible. I suspect a lot of the comments will involve the 27 turnovers that allowed the Raptors to take more shots than the Celtics did and poor transition defense that allowed 19 fast break points from the Northern Exposure guys.
• Speaking of turnovers, you're seldom going to win when each of your two floor generals commits five in one single game.
• One indicator of chemistry on a team, in my opinion, is how spread out the assists are. Another is what percentage of made field goals are assisted. Of course there are many more factors involved, but these two are relatively easy to track statistically. My benchmark indicators of pretty good chemistry are (1) no single Celtic should have more than 50% of the team’s assists and (2) the team should assist on at least two-thirds of its made field goals. On both counts, the Celtics fell short last night. Rondo had 68% of his team’s assists, and the Celtics assisted on only 55% of their made field goals.
• The starters registered a combined +5, while the bench was a collective -8 for the night. The bench (with the exception of Marcus Smart) is looking rather anemic lately, which is probably why the starters were allotted 72% of the team’s minutes. First, Turner started falling by the wayside, and now Thornton seems to be joining him. Six points, three rebounds, and one assist between them in a combined 27 minutes last night.
• The best luck Brad has had with this team offensively involves small ball. I started the season assuming that Smart would split his time between the two guard positions. Now it appears he’ll be splitting his time between the two wing positions.
• The more Smart plays the “3” position, the more Turner, Thornton and Pressey are left to contend for the backup guard roles. Brad has apparently all but forgotten about Pressey. And, while perhaps not as bad as initially feared defensively. Turner and Thornton must contribute much more than a collective six points, three rebounds and one assist in a combined 27 minutes to offset their mediocre defense.
• I had been high on Thornton as a sixth man candidate, largely based on his ability to generate points in a hurry. But that doesn’t seem to be happening lately, and my sense is that he’s getting fewer touches per minute than earlier in the season and the preseason. Right now, it looks as though Smart is by far the best sixth man on the team. Just as Havlicek’s defense made him indispensible at any of three positions, Smart may be taking the same route. Now, if he can just come close to duplicating the offensive weaponry developed over time by John, he’ll be extremely valuable because he’s more of a disrupter than even Avery Bradley at his best.
• The more time spent by Smart at SF, the less time he’ll be spending at guard positions. And last night, the Rsptors’ backcourt accounted for 76 (or 69%) of the team’s 110 points.
• So far, Jeff Green has not scored fewer than 17 points in any game. What does he have to do to shake the inconsistent tag? Once again last night, in yet another demonstration of aggressiveness, he took more shots than anyone else on the team (connecting on 78% of his two point attempts and 29% of his three point attempts). Last night, the Celts had three blocks, and Jeff had all of them.
• I’m totally flummoxed about Zeller. He looks pretty good to me, defends the center position better than anyone else on the team, and has displayed decent offensive potential, especially in the pick-and-roll game. And yet he doesn’t get enough minutes (6 last night) to enable him to attain any rhythm. Brad claims that defense must be the catalyst for this team. And yet, when it comes time to allocating minutes at center, he sticks pretty much with guys who are offensively, rather than defensively, gifted.
• At least they got off to a good start in this game. They're not going to accomplish everything all at once. And learning how to put pressure on the other team from the outset is a pretty good asset.
Go Celtics,
Sam
Last edited by sam on Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:00 am; edited 4 times in total
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Re: POST GAME - TORONTO - HOME
by Berlin-T Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:22 am
Turner is as of now a total liability on both ends of the court.
The great pace and passing in the first quarter dissipated soon thereafter with everyone standing around on offense watching Rondo dribble the ball. Olynyk is passing up way too many open shots. I'd also like to see some of Young as long as Brad seems to want to see what he has with the youngsters (Wallace has hardly seen the floor this year). I think being a young team they are not yet mentally tough enough to put teams away. Kudos to Green for another great game. They should have gotten the ball to him more often.
The great pace and passing in the first quarter dissipated soon thereafter with everyone standing around on offense watching Rondo dribble the ball. Olynyk is passing up way too many open shots. I'd also like to see some of Young as long as Brad seems to want to see what he has with the youngsters (Wallace has hardly seen the floor this year). I think being a young team they are not yet mentally tough enough to put teams away. Kudos to Green for another great game. They should have gotten the ball to him more often.
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Re: POST GAME - TORONTO - HOME
by dboss Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:37 am
I have not read any posts about the game last night.
So my comments have not been influenced by anything other than my observations.
The big stat of the night is the number of turnovers. It was an epidemic of Ebola proportion with 5 Celtics players registering between 4 and 5 turnovers each. The desease spread quickly throughout the game and removed any hope of life when the game was on the line.
Playing without their two best bigs, the Raptors where able to ride this one to the end on the backs of two players, DeRozan and Lowry. Jeff Green did a great job covering DeRozan but when another player had to take their turn they failed. Lowry pretty much scored whenever he wanted to. And you would think at some point that Patrick Patterson (4-6 from behind the arc) would get coverage as he drifted to the corner.
So there you have it. Turning the ball over throughout the game along with poor overall team defense led to a 3 point loss.
But I am not finished. The calls that went against the Celtics only magnified the things that they did wrong. An absolutely horrible game was called with countless questionable fouls going against Boston.
More stuff to fuss about
I am changing Evan Turner's name to Evan Turnover. I believe that he is the original carrier of the turnover virus. When the Celtics got him I thought he would really add a dimension that we have not seen for a while. A second look reveals a mindless basketball player that never knows what he is going to do until he does it. Not only is he a bad decision maker with the ball in his hands but he cannot cover a ham sandwich. If we need to have someone else play the point it has to be Phil Pressey. Brad Stevens has started this year off just like last year by putting the wrong players in the game.
I could go on all morning but I will not torture you much longer.
I do not see how this team is going to be able to win without a rim protector. Even if they do all the other things right, that glaring hole in the middle is structurally unsound.
dboss
So my comments have not been influenced by anything other than my observations.
The big stat of the night is the number of turnovers. It was an epidemic of Ebola proportion with 5 Celtics players registering between 4 and 5 turnovers each. The desease spread quickly throughout the game and removed any hope of life when the game was on the line.
Playing without their two best bigs, the Raptors where able to ride this one to the end on the backs of two players, DeRozan and Lowry. Jeff Green did a great job covering DeRozan but when another player had to take their turn they failed. Lowry pretty much scored whenever he wanted to. And you would think at some point that Patrick Patterson (4-6 from behind the arc) would get coverage as he drifted to the corner.
So there you have it. Turning the ball over throughout the game along with poor overall team defense led to a 3 point loss.
But I am not finished. The calls that went against the Celtics only magnified the things that they did wrong. An absolutely horrible game was called with countless questionable fouls going against Boston.
More stuff to fuss about
I am changing Evan Turner's name to Evan Turnover. I believe that he is the original carrier of the turnover virus. When the Celtics got him I thought he would really add a dimension that we have not seen for a while. A second look reveals a mindless basketball player that never knows what he is going to do until he does it. Not only is he a bad decision maker with the ball in his hands but he cannot cover a ham sandwich. If we need to have someone else play the point it has to be Phil Pressey. Brad Stevens has started this year off just like last year by putting the wrong players in the game.
I could go on all morning but I will not torture you much longer.
I do not see how this team is going to be able to win without a rim protector. Even if they do all the other things right, that glaring hole in the middle is structurally unsound.
dboss
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Re: POST GAME - TORONTO - HOME
by Sam Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:38 am
Berlin,
You can almost feel the growing pains—pain by pain—on this team. One forward step, such as taking immediate control of the pace, followed by one backward step, such as not being able to take care of the ball. Increasing consistency displayed by Green accompanied by the bottom falling out for Turner and possibly Thornton. Being able to fight hard down the stretch but not able to close out games. The best advice is not to eat while watching this team because the roller coast rides can be horrific.
Sam
You can almost feel the growing pains—pain by pain—on this team. One forward step, such as taking immediate control of the pace, followed by one backward step, such as not being able to take care of the ball. Increasing consistency displayed by Green accompanied by the bottom falling out for Turner and possibly Thornton. Being able to fight hard down the stretch but not able to close out games. The best advice is not to eat while watching this team because the roller coast rides can be horrific.
Sam
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Re: POST GAME - TORONTO - HOME
by Sam Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:10 am
Dboss,
Thanks for filling me in on some things that did not pop out from the box score—especially: (1) the fact that the poor defense extended well beyond transition D to include protecting the rim and the perimeter and (2) the generally good defense on DeRozan by Jeff Green.
People can slam Jeff Green all they wish, but it seems to me that his aggressiveness and consistency have been two of the relative bright spots so far this season.
I assume there will be a practice today, and I hope to see people on Friday's Game-on Thread.
Sam
Thanks for filling me in on some things that did not pop out from the box score—especially: (1) the fact that the poor defense extended well beyond transition D to include protecting the rim and the perimeter and (2) the generally good defense on DeRozan by Jeff Green.
People can slam Jeff Green all they wish, but it seems to me that his aggressiveness and consistency have been two of the relative bright spots so far this season.
I assume there will be a practice today, and I hope to see people on Friday's Game-on Thread.
Sam
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Re: POST GAME - TORONTO - HOME
by 112288 Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:14 am
Like last year....this is the process of weeding out to see who will stick long term. It will be another 8-10 games before some starters or second unit players will be finding more time at the end of the bench next to Wallace. This is the process that unfortunately all rebuilding teams have to go through.
By year end........Young will be your 6th man off the bench...Thorton will be traded.....and life will go on.
I think the Celtics/Brad did a disservice to Turner....he is not a point guard and having him learn a new position while not perfecting his old position is having a negative affect on his play.........just my thoughts.
112288
By year end........Young will be your 6th man off the bench...Thorton will be traded.....and life will go on.
I think the Celtics/Brad did a disservice to Turner....he is not a point guard and having him learn a new position while not perfecting his old position is having a negative affect on his play.........just my thoughts.
112288
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Join date : 2009-10-16
Re: POST GAME - TORONTO - HOME
by kdp59 Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:08 am
my 2 cent opinions:
this was a big loss , playing Toronto without their center and PF?
come on!
turnover...TURNOVERS!
Green and Bradley ARE our go to scorers.
Rondo STILL can't shoot and I am sorry but that is a BIG, BIG problem!!
Turner needs to be benched and Wallace used as BU SF for a bit. Rondo, Bradley and Smart can handle most of the minutes at guard (with Thorton IF he's shot is on, otherwise try out Young).
Thornton needs a QUICK yank, if he isn't going to be hitting his shots. He and Bass SHOULD be leading the second team as scorers.
yes we have no rim protector, this is not anything new. We are likely NOT to address that this season unless Ainge trades for Sanders.
this was a big loss , playing Toronto without their center and PF?
come on!
turnover...TURNOVERS!
Green and Bradley ARE our go to scorers.
Rondo STILL can't shoot and I am sorry but that is a BIG, BIG problem!!
Turner needs to be benched and Wallace used as BU SF for a bit. Rondo, Bradley and Smart can handle most of the minutes at guard (with Thorton IF he's shot is on, otherwise try out Young).
Thornton needs a QUICK yank, if he isn't going to be hitting his shots. He and Bass SHOULD be leading the second team as scorers.
yes we have no rim protector, this is not anything new. We are likely NOT to address that this season unless Ainge trades for Sanders.
kdp59- Posts : 5709
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Age : 65
Re: POST GAME - TORONTO - HOME
by dboss Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:12 am
[quote="kdp59"]my 2 cent opinions:
this was a big loss , playing Toronto without their center and PF?
come on!
turnover...TURNOVERS!
Green and Bradley ARE our go to scorers.
Rondo STILL can't shoot and I am sorry but that is a BIG, BIG problem!!
Turner needs to be benched and Wallace used as BU SF for a bit. Rondo, Bradley and Smart can handle most of the minutes at guard (with Thorton IF he's shot is on, otherwise try out Young).
Thornton needs a QUICK yank, if he isn't going to be hitting his shots. He and Bass SHOULD be leading the second team as scorers.
yes we have no rim protector, this is not anything new. We are likely NOT to address that this season unless Ainge trades for Sanders.
KDP59
Of course Rondo is not a shooter but he is a scorer, a rebounder and an assist machine. Shooters shoot and that is not what a pure point guard does.
I would not necessarily bench Turner but I would take him off the ball.
As the starter minutes have increased there is less opportunities for guys like Thornton to contribute however the last thing you should do is automatically yank him because he missed a shot or 2. He is a proven NBA shooter. He's no rookie and his defense is not bad. Bass is not getting enough minutes and the pre season notion that Sully is an improved 3 point shooter defies his .111% makes.
Wallace and Pressey have been buried on the bench but both of them have skills that are not being utilized right now. I would also like to see our only true center, Zeller, get more minutes. This can only happen when boy genuis brad stevens comes to terms with how the minutes should be divided up. He would need to reduce the minutes of our starters and I am OK with that.
As much as I like Smart's savy, they miss Pressey. Wallace hustles and defends and would provide the team with a more consistent defensive presence throughout the game.
dboss
this was a big loss , playing Toronto without their center and PF?
come on!
turnover...TURNOVERS!
Green and Bradley ARE our go to scorers.
Rondo STILL can't shoot and I am sorry but that is a BIG, BIG problem!!
Turner needs to be benched and Wallace used as BU SF for a bit. Rondo, Bradley and Smart can handle most of the minutes at guard (with Thorton IF he's shot is on, otherwise try out Young).
Thornton needs a QUICK yank, if he isn't going to be hitting his shots. He and Bass SHOULD be leading the second team as scorers.
yes we have no rim protector, this is not anything new. We are likely NOT to address that this season unless Ainge trades for Sanders.
KDP59
Of course Rondo is not a shooter but he is a scorer, a rebounder and an assist machine. Shooters shoot and that is not what a pure point guard does.
I would not necessarily bench Turner but I would take him off the ball.
As the starter minutes have increased there is less opportunities for guys like Thornton to contribute however the last thing you should do is automatically yank him because he missed a shot or 2. He is a proven NBA shooter. He's no rookie and his defense is not bad. Bass is not getting enough minutes and the pre season notion that Sully is an improved 3 point shooter defies his .111% makes.
Wallace and Pressey have been buried on the bench but both of them have skills that are not being utilized right now. I would also like to see our only true center, Zeller, get more minutes. This can only happen when boy genuis brad stevens comes to terms with how the minutes should be divided up. He would need to reduce the minutes of our starters and I am OK with that.
As much as I like Smart's savy, they miss Pressey. Wallace hustles and defends and would provide the team with a more consistent defensive presence throughout the game.
dboss
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Join date : 2009-11-01
Re: POST GAME - TORONTO - HOME
by swish Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:41 am
dboss
Your below statement about Rondo I believe to be quite accurate
"an assist machine"
However I consider the individual assist to be an irrelevant stat when it comes to the role that it plays in determining the success of a team.
swish
Your below statement about Rondo I believe to be quite accurate
"an assist machine"
However I consider the individual assist to be an irrelevant stat when it comes to the role that it plays in determining the success of a team.
swish
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Re: POST GAME - TORONTO - HOME
by kdp59 Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:56 am
Rondo is NOT a scorer, sorry.
and while he does many other things extremely well, scoring and shooting is not one of them. The off-season reports of Rondo becoming a better shooter, look to be un true at this point.
I also disagree about what a point guard need to do in todays NBA. he HAS to be able to hit 75% or his FT's and 35% of his threes...sorry, but thats the way I see todays league.
since Rondo has come back we've seen the offense evolve from the "motion" offense we saw in the pre-season. Rondo is the type of player that will have the ball in his hands. it appears to me that it is not meshing well with what Stevens did in the pre-seaons (which many Celtics fans liked).
on THIS Celtics team, Rodno HAS to improve his shooting. I HOPE it is all just ruust form being out in the pre-season and he will show the improved shooting that was hyped by some.
yes, Thornton is NOT a rookie and thats why if his shot is off, he needs to sit. We know what he is...a shooter.
I wouild like to see Zeller play more as well and I am not sure why Stevens doesn't trust him to be in the game more minutes.
Same with Bass.
I would play Wallace over Turner at the 3 becasue of his soldi defense and hustle. and YES Turner has proven that he can't be trusted to run the offense from the point forward postion...just quit trying now. He a BU SF/SG who can hit the mid range shot fairly well...PERIOD.
right now we have Rondo, Smart and Pressey who should be running the team. Whiel I am not a big Pressey fan ( I think he's a nice guy and works hard, but at 5-8 will NEVER be anything more than a DEEP back up on an NBA team), but he shoudl be in over Turenr running the team. And we also need to see if Smart can do it in limitied minutes while Rondo is still here.
it's still early I know, but this loss was one that shouldn't have happened. Toronto IS a playoff team in the East, but they are not Chicago. They are also NOT a playoff team without their STARTING Center and PF.
We played them at home.....got off to a great start and still lost the game. NOT GOOD.
there should be a lot asses being chewed today by Stevens and his staff.
and while he does many other things extremely well, scoring and shooting is not one of them. The off-season reports of Rondo becoming a better shooter, look to be un true at this point.
I also disagree about what a point guard need to do in todays NBA. he HAS to be able to hit 75% or his FT's and 35% of his threes...sorry, but thats the way I see todays league.
since Rondo has come back we've seen the offense evolve from the "motion" offense we saw in the pre-season. Rondo is the type of player that will have the ball in his hands. it appears to me that it is not meshing well with what Stevens did in the pre-seaons (which many Celtics fans liked).
on THIS Celtics team, Rodno HAS to improve his shooting. I HOPE it is all just ruust form being out in the pre-season and he will show the improved shooting that was hyped by some.
yes, Thornton is NOT a rookie and thats why if his shot is off, he needs to sit. We know what he is...a shooter.
I wouild like to see Zeller play more as well and I am not sure why Stevens doesn't trust him to be in the game more minutes.
Same with Bass.
I would play Wallace over Turner at the 3 becasue of his soldi defense and hustle. and YES Turner has proven that he can't be trusted to run the offense from the point forward postion...just quit trying now. He a BU SF/SG who can hit the mid range shot fairly well...PERIOD.
right now we have Rondo, Smart and Pressey who should be running the team. Whiel I am not a big Pressey fan ( I think he's a nice guy and works hard, but at 5-8 will NEVER be anything more than a DEEP back up on an NBA team), but he shoudl be in over Turenr running the team. And we also need to see if Smart can do it in limitied minutes while Rondo is still here.
it's still early I know, but this loss was one that shouldn't have happened. Toronto IS a playoff team in the East, but they are not Chicago. They are also NOT a playoff team without their STARTING Center and PF.
We played them at home.....got off to a great start and still lost the game. NOT GOOD.
there should be a lot asses being chewed today by Stevens and his staff.
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Re: POST GAME - TORONTO - HOME
by NYCelt Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:23 pm
dboss wrote:I have not read any posts about the game last night.
So my comments have not been influenced by anything other than my observations.
The big stat of the night is the number of turnovers. It was an epidemic of Ebola proportion with 5 Celtics players registering between 4 and 5 turnovers each. The desease spread quickly throughout the game and removed any hope of life when the game was on the line.
Playing without their two best bigs, the Raptors where able to ride this one to the end on the backs of two players, DeRozan and Lowry. Jeff Green did a great job covering DeRozan but when another player had to take their turn they failed. Lowry pretty much scored whenever he wanted to. And you would think at some point that Patrick Patterson (4-6 from behind the arc) would get coverage as he drifted to the corner.
So there you have it. Turning the ball over throughout the game along with poor overall team defense led to a 3 point loss.
But I am not finished. The calls that went against the Celtics only magnified the things that they did wrong. An absolutely horrible game was called with countless questionable fouls going against Boston.
More stuff to fuss about
I am changing Evan Turner's name to Evan Turnover. I believe that he is the original carrier of the turnover virus. When the Celtics got him I thought he would really add a dimension that we have not seen for a while. A second look reveals a mindless basketball player that never knows what he is going to do until he does it. Not only is he a bad decision maker with the ball in his hands but he cannot cover a ham sandwich. If we need to have someone else play the point it has to be Phil Pressey. Brad Stevens has started this year off just like last year by putting the wrong players in the game.
I could go on all morning but I will not torture you much longer.
I do not see how this team is going to be able to win without a rim protector. Even if they do all the other things right, that glaring hole in the middle is structurally unsound.
dboss
That says it all. Painfully simple story; eliminate, ar even reduce the turnovers, and you have a win.
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Re: POST GAME - TORONTO - HOME
by beat Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:39 pm
Cut those 27 TO's in half......
get 13 more FG attempts
Make just 4 of those
Min 8 more points
And we win
Some of out turnovers were down right brutal
beat
get 13 more FG attempts
Make just 4 of those
Min 8 more points
And we win
Some of out turnovers were down right brutal
beat
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Re: POST GAME - TORONTO - HOME
by RosalieTCeltics Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:02 pm
First of all, alot of Rondo's turnovers happened because guys were not where they were supposed to be. I am not admonishing him completely but watch these guys, some haven't got a clue. (Turner)
The aforementioned Turner just seems like he is on a private mission, not a team oriented one. As Gyso said last night, maybe the real Evan Turner is beginning to show himself.
There were so many calls against the Celtics last night, many deserved, but so many questionable. It is really sickening to watch these ref's call one foul after another without real justification. They had Bradley in foul trouble so early, is was terrible.
Growing pains, that is what we are watching right now. It is going to take time. I just hope everyone sticks with them because they are going to be fun.
The blocks by Green were great, but one was out of this world. He is showing everyone why they should not give up on him
Rosalie
The aforementioned Turner just seems like he is on a private mission, not a team oriented one. As Gyso said last night, maybe the real Evan Turner is beginning to show himself.
There were so many calls against the Celtics last night, many deserved, but so many questionable. It is really sickening to watch these ref's call one foul after another without real justification. They had Bradley in foul trouble so early, is was terrible.
Growing pains, that is what we are watching right now. It is going to take time. I just hope everyone sticks with them because they are going to be fun.
The blocks by Green were great, but one was out of this world. He is showing everyone why they should not give up on him
Rosalie
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Re: POST GAME - TORONTO - HOME
by gyso Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:39 pm
Rosalie,
I only wish I had said it. It was Ktron who said, "Me thinks we are beginning to see the real Evan Turner...."
Some of the calls were bad, but the turnovers is what did us in, IMO.
Regards,
gyso
I only wish I had said it. It was Ktron who said, "Me thinks we are beginning to see the real Evan Turner...."
Some of the calls were bad, but the turnovers is what did us in, IMO.
Regards,
gyso
_________________
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Re: POST GAME - TORONTO - HOME
by dboss Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:21 pm
It seems that a lot of turnovers were just careless mistakes. Thee is a mental aspect to turning the ball over as well as a lack of team chemistry. That can be corrected.
The other things that is troubling is the team defense. In 4 games we have surrendered 105, 104, 118 and 110 points.
We have played 4 teams that made the playoffs last year so these were difficult games against quality opponents.
The Celtics can improve but it will take a lot of work.
Some things they cannot control. They do not have a rim protector but they can use more discipline when they have the ball. So turnovers is a key to their improvement. Let's see how things play out over the next dozen or so games.
dboss
The other things that is troubling is the team defense. In 4 games we have surrendered 105, 104, 118 and 110 points.
We have played 4 teams that made the playoffs last year so these were difficult games against quality opponents.
The Celtics can improve but it will take a lot of work.
Some things they cannot control. They do not have a rim protector but they can use more discipline when they have the ball. So turnovers is a key to their improvement. Let's see how things play out over the next dozen or so games.
dboss
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Re: POST GAME - TORONTO - HOME
by Outside Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:43 pm
The turnovers were obviously an issue, but the inability to contain Kyle Lowry was an equal issue in my mind. Boston's guards are supposed to be stellar defensively, and I know Lowry is good, but he encountered way too little resistance in the second half (at least the parts I saw).
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Re: POST GAME - TORONTO - HOME
by dboss Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:22 pm
kdp59 wrote:Rondo is NOT a scorer, sorry.
and while he does many other things extremely well, scoring and shooting is not one of them. The off-season reports of Rondo becoming a better shooter, look to be un true at this point.
I also disagree about what a point guard need to do in todays NBA. he HAS to be able to hit 75% or his FT's and 35% of his threes...sorry, but thats the way I see todays league.
since Rondo has come back we've seen the offense evolve from the "motion" offense we saw in the pre-season. Rondo is the type of player that will have the ball in his hands. it appears to me that it is not meshing well with what Stevens did in the pre-seaons (which many Celtics fans liked).
on THIS Celtics team, Rodno HAS to improve his shooting. I HOPE it is all just ruust form being out in the pre-season and he will show the improved shooting that was hyped by some.
yes, Thornton is NOT a rookie and thats why if his shot is off, he needs to sit. We know what he is...a shooter.
I wouild like to see Zeller play more as well and I am not sure why Stevens doesn't trust him to be in the game more minutes.
Same with Bass.
I would play Wallace over Turner at the 3 becasue of his soldi defense and hustle. and YES Turner has proven that he can't be trusted to run the offense from the point forward postion...just quit trying now. He a BU SF/SG who can hit the mid range shot fairly well...PERIOD.
right now we have Rondo, Smart and Pressey who should be running the team. Whiel I am not a big Pressey fan ( I think he's a nice guy and works hard, but at 5-8 will NEVER be anything more than a DEEP back up on an NBA team), but he shoudl be in over Turenr running the team. And we also need to see if Smart can do it in limitied minutes while Rondo is still here.
it's still early I know, but this loss was one that shouldn't have happened. Toronto IS a playoff team in the East, but they are not Chicago. They are also NOT a playoff team without their STARTING Center and PF.
We played them at home.....got off to a great start and still lost the game. NOT GOOD.
there should be a lot asses being chewed today by Stevens and his staff.
kdp59
There is a different between a shooter and a scorer although a good shooter is a good scorer but let me assume that when you reference good shooter you are really referring to the ability to shoot the ball from the outside and make shots.
A pure point guard has little if anything to do with hitting a 3 point shot. A pure point guard is a true quarterback whose primary goal is to run the offense where the primary focus is getting the ball to his teammates where they have the best opportunity to score. A pure point guard must be able to handle the ball, control tempo and serve as an extension of the coach. That has nothing to do with hitting 3 point shots or being a shooter. A pure PG has to be able to score the basketball. Rondo fits this description to a tee. Rondo has a championship ring and while he no longer has the big three to feed, his production has not fallen off.
Some of the greatest PG's in NBA history have repeatedly recognized how good Rondo is at the point. His overall game is so good that it more than makes up for the lack of being a 3 point shooter. I see no good reason to fault his outside shooting when he still scores the basketball off the dribble through the paint and into the teeth of the defense. There are better shooting PG out there, no doubt, but many of them cannot get to the rim. I think when you consider his ability to score, pass and rebound the basketball you are still looking at a multi skilled player that is rare in today's NBA.
Besides that you picked the wrong time to critique his game given his triple double last night which included a pretty good field goal and free throw percentage.
Consider the fact that Rondo has produced field goal percentages in the mid to high 40's. His career number is .475%. He is not shooter but he does know how to score the basketball.
One last thought.
Last night Kyrie Irving scored 34 points and the Cavs lost. He had zero assists and only 1 rebound. During the last 6 quarters that Kyrie has played he has zero assists.
Take Rondo's production and consider his direct impact on the offense, throw in the steals he gets and all the rebounds and all the other intangibles and you have yourself a Pure Point Guard + that Today's NBA does not have enough of.
dboss
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Re: POST GAME - TORONTO - HOME
by cowens/oldschool Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:45 pm
Sam after 4 games your gonna anoint Jeff Green Mr Consistent? I'd wait at least 15-20 games.
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Re: POST GAME - TORONTO - HOME
by Sam Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:58 pm
Cow, I didn't anoint Jeff Green as anything. I specifically used the term "so far" to describe his performance. Then I asked what it would take for him to shed the "inconsistent" label. That was not a rhetorical question; I meant it. Would it take 15 consecutive double figure games? 82 consecutive double figure games? You answered my question. Thanks.
Personally, I've granted him a clean slate this season because I don't believe in belaboring the past, especially because I believe he worked hard over the summer on those aspects of the game that made him inconsistent. And, in my book, he's consistent until he proves to be inconsistent. Sort of like being innocent until being proven guilty. Doesn't that seem fair?
Sam
Personally, I've granted him a clean slate this season because I don't believe in belaboring the past, especially because I believe he worked hard over the summer on those aspects of the game that made him inconsistent. And, in my book, he's consistent until he proves to be inconsistent. Sort of like being innocent until being proven guilty. Doesn't that seem fair?
Sam
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