Rondo's legacy in green..?

After years of unrelenting speculation, Rondo has moved on, producing dimes, baskets and rebounds for Dallas. I see he had a season-high 21 points last time out after being encouraged to score more. If he's encouraged to make his foul shots, he may not miss another one this year. Even though he's gone, such an enigmatic player leaves a trail of questions, such as: Did Danny decide to move Rondo before he drafted Smart? Will we regret moving Rondo for years to come? Was he holding back this year? Are his best days behind him? Did Rondo want to go? How will his moving on affect the Celtics this season? Will anyone on the team now take his place (or do we need a 1 as much as a 5?) And how will this trade affect the rebuild timetable? Related to that last question, does it make sense to resign Jeff Green, or let him go soon and focus on the future?
I want to thank him for all the great moments, wish him luck (except against the C's). Hawk

In retrospect

I think DA was not able to add a major piece over the summer (all the draft picks did not help him do that)  In absence of a short term retooling project that was not sucessfull over the summer, he has gone the way of a full blown rebuild.

DA needed to draft a PG regardless because it was time to groom a replacement for Rondo.  DA has been discussing trading Rondo long before he drafted Smart.

Last year he only played 30 games coming off the ACL injury.  My observation is that he is not 100% recovered.  That first quick step that was a signature of his blow by speed is not there yet.  I think by the end of this season we will know more.  I expect him to regain that quickness.

I do not think that Rondo wanted to be traded.  However he was not sure where he would end up next year and was and still is determined to be a free agent.

I actually thought that the Celtics had a shot at making the playoffs in a really weak Eastern conference.   I think that is less likely now.

I think that Smart has yet to display the type of PG skills needed to run an offense.  My concerns on offense include a relatively weak handle and his overall foot speed is not particularly quick.  He is turnover prone with his passing and struggles to get the ball inside of the paint.  His FG shooting refelcts the same type of numbers that he displayed in college.  To date he is shooting 35% from the field and he does not drive the ball to the hoop very well.  At this point I cannot picture him as a PG or a shooting guard since he has not mastered the skills to be effective at either position.

So the short answer is YES, we are going to need another PG.

The Rondo trade will make it more difficult for the Celtics to sign Jeff Green.  If they also lose Jeff the rebuild will be a long process (5 years)  I think Boston should get a feel for what jeff expects on his next contract.  I do not know what he is worth.  But if a guy like parsons can get $15 mill per then Jeff who is having his best year ofensively is going to demand at least that much.  

However money alone may not inspire Jeff to resign.  Does Jeff want to be part of a rebuilding process especially when he may have an opportunity to sign with a contender?

This rebuild will be substantially more difficult than the last one if both Jeff Green and Rondo are gone.  During the last rebuild we still had Paul Pierce.

dboss

Dboss,

While I continue to have doubts that the Celtics will bet a really intimidating defensively oriented center via the draft, I do not doubt that they could come up with a very good floor general if they were drafting around #10. But please, Danny, no more tweeners. Please, please, please. Whatever your thinking process was when you traded for Rondo, please use that same thinking process in drafting a true floor general.

I feel the most difficult part of learning the floor general position in the pros is half court offense. And I'm anticipating that the Celtics' uptempo and motion offense will minimize the pressure on the floor general to be a great half court tactician. That was the case with the Celtics of the 70s and 80s.

I also agree that I'd like to see Jeff Green held over as a hopefully increasingly dependable "go to" guy for whoever is playing the "5."

Sam

Sam,

If I'm Jeff Green, I'm not sure I want to stay.



KJ

hawksnestbeach wrote:Did Danny decide to move Rondo before he drafted Smart?

I don't think so. I think Ainge took the player he thought would best fit the team rebuild, but Smart being insurance in case Rondo was gone may have been a consideration.

It may not be as simple as Smart being a replacement for Rondo. I haven't seen Smart play enough to know whether he can be a top-level NBA point guard, and if not, then drafting Smart would be a separate issue from whether Rondo stayed. It may be that Stevens' offense in its fully implemented form doesn't have a traditional point guard role, that the ball moves through everyone rather than being dominated by a single player; that's how many motion offenses are designed to work, though they still allow for a less-utilized version of a point guard. I can envision many reasons why drafting Smart and the decision to move Rondo would be separate issues.

hawksnestbeach wrote:Will we regret moving Rondo for years to come?
Did Rondo want to go?

You didn't have these questions together in your list, but they are linked in my mind. I think once Ainge wasn't able to land top players over the summer, Ainge lost any chance to sign Rondo to an extension. Rondo made it clear he wanted to test free agency, he wasn't giving Ainge any assurances that he would sign with Boston, and Ainge wouldn't risk Rondo leaving and getting nothing in return.

Given that Ainge was unable to bring in top talent over the summer, the answer to the second question is yes, Rondo wanted to go. And given that Rondo wanted to go, I don't see how you can regret making the trade.

Even if Ainge had been able to bring in one or two top players, I'm still not sure that Rondo was the answer moving forward. As has been discussed on other threads, he's such a mixed bag of elite highs and mind-numbing lows, and there's a certain relief in putting that in the rear view mirror. Generally speaking, perimeter players need to be able to shoot perimeter shots, draw fouls, and make free throws, especially in a motion offense. Now Ainge can build the roster with players who have those skills and Stevens doesn't have to figure out how to work around Rondo's limitations in those areas.

hawksnestbeach wrote:Was he holding back this year?

I'm inclined to say no, but people are human, and Rondo may have been less than fully energized by the situation, especially after the "no fireworks" summer. From what I saw, it may have affected him most on defense. But regardless, I don't think there was a conscious holding back on his part.

hawksnestbeach wrote:Are his best days behind him?

That's an interesting question. I think he can rack up assists and be an elite floor general for years to come. But the remarkable performances that he had in the playoffs in the latter half of the big three era, where he dominated games at both ends and seemed to show he could be one of the very best players in the league -- his potential to play at that level seems to have passed. Maybe he'll find it again in Dallas or wherever he plays from now on.

hawksnestbeach wrote:How will his moving on affect the Celtics this season? Will anyone on the team now take his place (or do we need a 1 as much as a 5?)
And how will this trade affect the rebuild timetable? Related to that last question, does it make sense to resign Jeff Green, or let him go soon and focus on the future?

As I mentioned before, a motion offense doesn't typically need a single ball-dominating point guard as much as a traditional NBA offense, so it may be that what the Celtics move toward is more of an interchangeable fleet of guards with ballhandling, passing, and shooting skills. There is often a player that the team defers to when bringing the ball up and initiating the offense, but not to the extent that Rondo did.

In one way, the Rondo trade is almost a reset on the rebuilding process. Instead of adding to what's here, the focus is on using those draft picks to draft players to develop, hopefully by using multiple picks to move up in the draft. They can also use the picks in trades, though that is theoretically less likely because they don't have lots of top assets to use in trading for a top player. What Ainge does with that $12.9 million exception will be interesting and could accelerate the rebuild significantly.

If it truly is a reset, then Jeff Green may be as good as gone. There is apparently less urgency to move Green than there was to move Rondo because Rondo made it clear enough he was moving on. I'd love to see Green sign an extension, exercise his player option for 2015-16, or do whatever to stay. Green isn't the problem.

I'm more concerned about the long-term viability of Sullinger and Olynyk. I am very concerned about Sullinger's athleticism and defense. I think Olynyk is a better fit for Stevens' offense and may be decent in the proper defensive scheme. Attempts to turn one of them into a center haven't worked, and I just don't see them coexisting at power forward.

The trading deadline is February 19. I don't think Ainge is done.

As for Boston's fortunes this season, I think it will be a bitter pill to swallow. Discontinuity due to roster changes will hurt. Moving Rondo was necessary and may reap benefits down the road, but the immediate impact is not good for wins and losses this season. Rondo having the ball alleviated others from that responsibility, and other teams will quickly figure out to pressure players like Smart who aren't comfortable yet handling the ball against NBA defenses. Those who want to see the worst in the situation will likely have much to fulfill their wish, and those who want to find glimmers to build on will find them. Rebuilds, like growing old, is not for the faint of heart.

Sam

I agree with your floor general comments.

The uptempo game does take a lot of pressure off of executing in the half court offense.

However what we continue to see is close games going down to the wire and very poor half court execution.

The Celtics do score well overall so that is not the # 1 issue that  i see.  The problem is that the defense is not very good.

Do you recall a few weeks back when coach was taking about the pick and role defense and how the bigs would be more agressive in challenging the guard coming around the pick?

Well I was watching our guards get killed play after play against Crooklyn because no one would step up.  Sullinger was particularly inept.  Go back and watch the game and check out our pick and roll defense.  

If the Celtics defense can improve, their offense will be even better and they will not find themselves in as many situations where they have to execute the perfect half court offense.

Their style of play can somewhat mask their floor general deficiency.

I was watching the Hawks the other night which I do not normally do but I wanted to check them out a little closer to see why they are playing so well.  They are undersized just like the Celtics but they are fast at every starting position and are executing 3rd level rotations.  Their coach is a 20 year pop disciple and you can see that Spurs influence in the way they play together.   They share the ball on offense.  All I could do was say WOW.  

dboss

Outside wrote:

hawksnestbeach wrote:Did Danny decide to move Rondo before he drafted Smart?

I don't think so. I think Ainge took the player he thought would best fit the team rebuild, but Smart being insurance in case Rondo was gone may have been a consideration.

It may not be as simple as Smart being a replacement for Rondo. I haven't seen Smart play enough to know whether he can be a top-level NBA point guard, and if not, then drafting Smart would be a separate issue from whether Rondo stayed. It may be that Stevens' offense in its fully implemented form doesn't have a traditional point guard role, that the ball moves through everyone rather than being dominated by a single player; that's how many motion offenses are designed to work, though they still allow for a less-utilized version of a point guard. I can envision many reasons why drafting Smart and the decision to move Rondo would be separate issues.

hawksnestbeach wrote:Will we regret moving Rondo for years to come?
Did Rondo want to go?

You didn't have these questions together in your list, but they are linked in my mind. I think once Ainge wasn't able to land top players over the summer, Ainge lost any chance to sign Rondo to an extension. Rondo made it clear he wanted to test free agency, he wasn't giving Ainge any assurances that he would sign with Boston, and Ainge wouldn't risk Rondo leaving and getting nothing in return.

Given that Ainge was unable to bring in top talent over the summer, the answer to the second question is yes, Rondo wanted to go. And given that Rondo wanted to go, I don't see how you can regret making the trade.

Even if Ainge had been able to bring in one or two top players, I'm still not sure that Rondo was the answer moving forward. As has been discussed on other threads, he's such a mixed bag of elite highs and mind-numbing lows, and there's a certain relief in putting that in the rear view mirror. Generally speaking, perimeter players need to be able to shoot perimeter shots, draw fouls, and make free throws, especially in a motion offense. Now Ainge can build the roster with players who have those skills and Stevens doesn't have to figure out how to work around Rondo's limitations in those areas.

hawksnestbeach wrote:Was he holding back this year?

I'm inclined to say no, but people are human, and Rondo may have been less than fully energized by the situation, especially after the "no fireworks" summer. From what I saw, it may have affected him most on defense. But regardless, I don't think there was a conscious holding back on his part.

hawksnestbeach wrote:Are his best days behind him?

That's an interesting question. I think he can rack up assists and be an elite floor general for years to come. But the remarkable performances that he had in the playoffs in the latter half of the big three era, where he dominated games at both ends and seemed to show he could be one of the very best players in the league -- his potential to play at that level seems to have passed. Maybe he'll find it again in Dallas or wherever he plays from now on.

hawksnestbeach wrote:How will his moving on affect the Celtics this season? Will anyone on the team now take his place (or do we need a 1 as much as a 5?)
And how will this trade affect the rebuild timetable? Related to that last question, does it make sense to resign Jeff Green, or let him go soon and focus on the future?

As I mentioned before, a motion offense doesn't typically need a single ball-dominating point guard as much as a traditional NBA offense, so it may be that what the Celtics move toward is more of an interchangeable fleet of guards with ballhandling, passing, and shooting skills. There is often a player that the team defers to when bringing the ball up and initiating the offense, but not to the extent that Rondo did.

In one way, the Rondo trade is almost a reset on the rebuilding process. Instead of adding to what's here, the focus is on using those draft picks to draft players to develop, hopefully by using multiple picks to move up in the draft. They can also use the picks in trades, though that is theoretically less likely because they don't have lots of top assets to use in trading for a top player. What Ainge does with that $12.9 million exception will be interesting and could accelerate the rebuild significantly.

If it truly is a reset, then Jeff Green may be as good as gone. There is apparently less urgency to move Green than there was to move Rondo because Rondo made it clear enough he was moving on. I'd love to see Green sign an extension, exercise his player option for 2015-16, or do whatever to stay. Green isn't the problem.

I'm more concerned about the long-term viability of Sullinger and Olynyk. I am very concerned about Sullinger's athleticism and defense. I think Olynyk is a better fit for Stevens' offense and may be decent in the proper defensive scheme. Attempts to turn one of them into a center haven't worked, and I just don't see them coexisting at power forward.

The trading deadline is February 19. I don't think Ainge is done.

As for Boston's fortunes this season, I think it will be a bitter pill to swallow. Discontinuity due to roster changes will hurt. Moving Rondo was necessary and may reap benefits down the road, but the immediate impact is not good for wins and losses this season. Rondo having the ball alleviated others from that responsibility, and other teams will quickly figure out to pressure players like Smart who aren't comfortable yet handling the ball against NBA defenses. Those who want to see the worst in the situation will likely have much to fulfill their wish, and those who want to find glimmers to build on will find them. Rebuilds, like growing old, is not for the faint of heart.

A very good analysis but I take exception with the notion that Rondo wanted to go.

Ainge statement would lead me to believe otherwise
"I shared with him how much I appreciated all he had done for us and how much I enjoyed our relationship. I'm rooting for him," Ainge said. "I think that, like Paul [Pierce] and [Kevin Garnett], when they were traded they were going to what everybody thought was a really special opportunity. I don't think, through any fault of their own, it didn't turn out like they hoped. But I think they were enthusiastic and excited.

"And I think Rajon hasn't gotten to that point yet, but I think he should be excited, I think he should be enthusiastic about the opportunity that he's going to. It makes me feel a little better -- we have to do what's best for the Celtics, but it is, at the same time, a great opportunity for him and I think he appreciates that he's getting a chance to go to a terrific opportunity."

Ainge says that Rondo has not gotten to that point yet.  That point being excitement and enthusiam.  That tells me that he did not want to be traded.

dboss
"

dboss,

Kendrick Perkins who is Rondo's best friend or one of his best friends said that Rondo wanted out of Boston.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/kendrick-perkins--rajon-rondo-wanted-out-of-boston-210651297.html

tjmakz wrote:dboss,

Kendrick Perkins who is Rondo's best friend or one of his best friends said that Rondo wanted out of Boston.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/kendrick-perkins--rajon-rondo-wanted-out-of-boston-210651297.html

Which brings me to the point that you cannot believe anything that Ainge says.

I would certainly believe Perkins over Ainge. Thanks for finding those comments by perk.

dboss

I think Rondo's legacy in green may have serious potential to be overshadowed by what he does elsewhere.

He's still relatively young, and coming into his prime.  Rondo is playing on a contending team this year, and will have the ability to make his best deal after the season.  The demand for him will be high, especially now that he's showing there has been no decline in his game, including on defense.  He is an outstanding point guard, with the ability to direct varied offensive schemes and set up teammates like few others presently in the league.  All he needed was to be surrounded by a more capable cast once again.

He'll be remembered as an excellent point guard on a championship team with us, but he may very well end up cementing a greater legacy, with more titles to come, elsewhere.

dboss wrote:

tjmakz wrote:dboss,

Kendrick Perkins who is Rondo's best friend or one of his best friends said that Rondo wanted out of Boston.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/kendrick-perkins--rajon-rondo-wanted-out-of-boston-210651297.html

Which brings me to the point that you cannot believe anything that Ainge says.

I would certainly believe Perkins over Ainge.  Thanks for finding those comments by perk.

dboss

Doc Rivers, who is also a friend of Rondo, added his two cents on the subject at hand.  He said that in a conversation with Rondo just two weeks before the trade, Rondo himself didn't know what he wanted to do; stay or go.  I provided the link to this article in a prior thread.

Should I stay or should I go?
Even Rondo didn't know!

Perk was quoted once during a game earlier this year that Rondo should stay, Perk said he would have if he could have, but he got traded.  Then after the trade, Perk says that Rondo wanted out of Boston?  After hearing both of these quotes, why would I believe anything Perk says?

I believe Doc is closer to the truth, Rondo had some serious mixed feelings on the subject.  On one hand, the lure of being a lifelong Celtic.  On the other hand, playing on a contending team during your prime.

gyso

IMO, Rondo goes down as an enigma who was one of the best PG in the NBA when he felt like showing up, and a stubborn, self focused, sometimes lazy player when he wasnt in the mood.

He showed as a young player what a great defender he could be - but spent the last 3 or 4 years, playing matador defense and surviving on great hands and long arms for an occasional reach around steal.

When he was fired up and playing against a player or a team he didnt like, he was capable of greatness. Other times he simply mailed it in. He had the same killer instinct as Pierce, KG and Ray - except only a handful of times a year.

His lack of leadership in the last season and a half, his lack of commitment to the team in speaking about becoming this being his team and taking the young guys on his shoulders - spoke volumes about his long term commitment to the Celtics.

I think the team made a mistake in naming him the captain - as he only occasionally displayed any of the attributes of a Celtics great. He was a good player, not a great one and he does not have the personality to lead a young team during a rebuild.

I wish him well, I liked him personally, but time to move on.

Mrkleen, don't you think it was possible that naming him captain was the team's way of trying to get him to display the great Rondo on a consistent basis? Besides, the way things have turned out the past couple of years, who else would have been an appropriate captain? Jeff Green perhaps?

Sam

Yes, I think that was what the team was hoping - but clearly that never panned out.

I think being the captain is something that is earned, not simply given to the next guy standing. I think they will go the rest of this season without a captain - as there is no particular requirement that they have one.

Mrkleen

you wrote.....

His lack of leadership in the last season and a half, his lack of commitment to the team in speaking about becoming this being his team and taking the young guys on his shoulders - spoke volumes about his long term commitment to the Celtics.


I have just a little problem with this. Seems a bit unfair, mainly the fact in the last year and a half he played how many games? Coming of the ACL injury I don't really even look at last season when he played a very limited roll. BUT that said this season I did expect to see a bit more consistency from him but that just was not there. Does he make Dallas better? Talk to me in February.

He is an enigma, a very perplexing a frustrating player to watch at times but when he was "on" it was fun.

At least I don't have to cringe watching him go to the line anymore.

beat

beat,

Your mention of Rondo being "on" is why Ainge had to move him.

There was just too many nights that he was not "on" to make him a max contract player going forward.

I can give him last year since he was coming off his surgery, but after 20 games this year he had not proven to be the guy who was going to lead this rebuilding Celtics team.

They are not better without him yet, but his leaving will open up some more draft picks to use or trade and also some more salary to use for next season.

Wide

I have no doubt Rondo was looking elsewhere, we'll never know exactly what transpired for sure BUT if he stayed and then went elsewhere Ainge would be tar and feathered for that.

I personally think Rondo's best days are long over. Perhaps he takes Dallas a little ways but in watching them seems Ellis is a bit perplexed as to what to do when they are both on the floor. Sometimes things just fall in place but trying to "make" them fit doesn't work real well.

beat

Beat

I dont see what being on the court has to do with showing leadership. Lots of great players have done as much team building and "coaching" in street clothes (during injuries) as they did while there were on the court. It is about being mature and coming out of the game (or sitting in a suit) and paying attention, looking for ways to help vs putting a towel over your head and zoning out.

Captains and max players should not zone out - they are the leaders by example of their play or their behavior - most often, both.

I don't know what his end of career legacy will be, but I'll always think of him as the point guard on a Championship team and one of the most exciting (when on) players I've ever seen.

mrkleen09 wrote:Beat

I dont see what being on the court has to do with showing leadership. Lots of great players have done as much team building and "coaching" in street clothes (during injuries) as they did while there were on the court.  It is about being mature and coming out of the game (or sitting in a suit) and paying attention, looking for ways to help vs putting a towel over your head and zoning out.

Captains and max players should not zone out - they are the leaders by example of their play or their behavior - most often, both.

your opinion, but if he isn't on the court That has a lot to do with leading, unless your at every practice and follow every movement he makes that is quite an assumption to make. Anyway he's gone and is now Dallas's enigma to figure out.

beat

I totally disagree with the leadership comments that I am reading here.

They reflect a perverse and ongoing bashing of one of the greatest point guards ever to play for the Celtics.

Someone here must be an expert on leadership.

Not that it matters to those bashers but everything I have heard about Rondo over the last few years is positive.  His teammates appreciated his leadership when he was here.  They appreciated his leadership when he traveled with the team while recovering from the ACL injury. They appreciated that fact that when he was on the court he played to make them better.  They appreciated him showing up at the Orlando summer league to support the young guys.  All knowledged that he made the game easier for them. That is a collective impact from a player that would rather pass the ball to a teammate so that that teammate can get a shot and maybe a basket. Getting all players on the team an opportunity to be productive on offense is a rare.

We can argue about what should be expected of a max contract player until hell freezes over.  But anyone out there that expected Rajoin Rondo to be the go to guy, to take over games on offense and score more points has not been watching him over the past 8 years.  That is not who he is.  The numbers show that he is still a top assist guy, rebounder, and defender.  That is what he does best.  That has always been his calling card. Those skills are not average. He does what he does better than anyone else.

A max contract players does not have to be a top end scorer.  You can have a exceptional center that rebounds and blocks shots but is not an offensive option.  Yet what that center brings to the table can have a profound impact on the team.  That center may very well be a max contract guy.

I am suggesting that he may be a max contract guy after this season.  I am not suggesting that the Celtics should have paid him accordingly.

I would never question his leadership ability because that cannot be based on how well he plays.  New players, new coaches, injuries and other things impacts performance s well as a desire to win, to compete.  He continues to do the things that made him an exceptional pure PG. No one not even the bashers can take that away from him.

If you do have anything good to say about what he did well as a leader than you really do not have anything to say.


dboss

Perverse and ongoing bashing of Rondo? Not sure what you are talking about....and who on this board has been bashing Rondo over a long period of time.

Rajon was a good player, at times when he felt like it, he was great. He simply did not bring intensity to the floor night after night, and the drop off has been even more dramatic with the departure of KG, Pierce and Ray Allen.

I completely understand and appreciate what Rajon brings to a team - he is a great fit on the Mavericks and will help to push them into the conversation for best team in the west.

But I guess I was expecting more from him this year. Too many times I look over and see him with a towel on his head, standing on the outside of huddles during timeouts.

Not all the Celtics captains have lead the same way, and maybe Rondo has a behind the scenes way of leading - but when I think of great team leaders, I think of Pierce, Bird, Russell and Cowens. Maybe the bar in my mind is set too high.

Rondo was great for us and now he's gone
End of story. Or is it? If We really needed Rondo and if he really wanted to remain a Celtic, Danny could offer him a Max contract in June. Then we'd have Rondo, Jae, Jameer, Wright -and the Mavs 1st round trip. Will that happen? No. Why not? Because Rondo's not worth the Max and he'd rather not be on a rebuild. So Danny did the best he could.

Fortunately decent point guards are much more abundant than decent centers, and we have plenty of picks to get a point guard.

Regarding Sully and Kelly...one has to go. I'd keep Kelly. And Jeff. Trade Avery. Keep Evan and Marcus. Trade Thornton. Get Okafor from Duke in the draft. If we get lucky for once in the lottery, we could be a contender (homage to Marlon Brando) again real soon.

Kleen

You are the basher.

You knew that I was talking about you.

Ha

Dboss

In 5 years on this board, I have criticized Rajon 3 or 4 times MAX.

Give me a break