Post-game Thread: Celtics-Hornets Who Lost their Stingers in Boston

[Sam]

I'll basically set this up for BobH and others who wish to contribute.

Oh, just one observation of my own that was echoed by Brad and the color guys after the game.  Big Al was guarded most often in the fourth quarter by Jae Crowder.  And Big Al scored exactly 2 points in the fourth quarter.  Brad says Jae's ability to guard post players gives him (Brad) a lot of flexibility in going small.  Isn't that worth at least 15¢ a dozen?

Also, for the second straight games, Crowder and Thomas both played the last 18 minutes of the game.  It's not about who starts.  It's about who finishes.  Like Rondo always did.  Oh wait...  Isn't that worth at least 17¢ a dozen?  Oh, just one more thing.  (It's impossible to resist).  Crowder sets an average of two to three screens per offensive possession.  Isn't that worth at least 20¢ a dozen.

I'm off now to grasp a straw.

Sam

[Berlin-T]

Who have been the most productive players since the trade deadline?
Crowder, Thomas and Jerebko.
Who could have foreseen that at the beginning of the season?
Hats off to Danny Ainge, he's robbing the league blind again. Truly a worthy successor to Red Auerbach.

Berlin-T

[cowens/oldschool]

berlin this might just be a couple games of role players playing over their head, and he couldn't hold Red Auerbachs jock strap. Franchises like Cleveland and Miami are set at the 5 and we all know Dannys failures to land a rim protector/load in the paint for years now? He crippled this franchise when his 2 HoFers had a year or 2 left at all star level.

Having said that I do like Isiah Thomas. Glad we have 2 good teams coming up, we better make it to the lottery, if Lakers get Towns or Okafor I'm gonna be sick.

[bobheckler]

Wow.  Wow, wow, wow.  This was a fun game to watch (because we won.  If we lost it would have merely been exciting).  We've seen shades of this before though, haven't we?  Start strong (weak), go cold (rally), scrap our way back into it (fail to execute in the clutch) and still lose.  This time, though, our scrappers fought their way back after going down 16 with only 2:53 left in the 3rd and won it going away by 8 points (it was 10 when Mo Williams hit a meaningless 3 with :28 seconds left) and this was not "only the Knicks".  This was against a team that was marginally better than us and we showed character and grit and they didn't.  It is only fair to mention, however, they were playing without Kemba Walker, but I think the performances of Mo Williams and Michael Kidd-Gilchrist (MKG) made up for that.

We went 6 minutes without a fg in the 2nd quarter.  Half the quarter.  We were very lucky to only be down 4.  A 25-3 run by Charlotte to close out the 2nd.

If you notice, I haven't mentioned the officiating hardly at all in my post-game dumps but last night the zebras really, really sucked.  That we won this game going away is a real testament to this team because the refs were letting the Charlotte Bobcats get away with murder.  Mo Williams stiff-arming Bradley away from him so he could hit a 3 (you saw Williams grabbing Bradley's jersey on the push), Celtics getting bounced around like pinballs with no calls...Not a game heading into the NBA referreeing scrapbook.

1.  I said it on the Game On thread last night and I'll stand by it today.  I love Jonas Jerebko.  The part of his game I have not seen yet, and may yet see, is shooting off the dribble and I'm ok if I don't see that since that is a specialty skill for a PF I'm happy to live without.  What he does do, though, is he rebounds well.  He had 10 rebounds, 5 of them my beloved offensive rebounds in 24 minutes.  What he does do well, so far, is shoot 3s.  He was 3-4 last night from the waterfront (he is 7-11 from 3 as a Celtic).  16 points on 6-9 (meaning he was 3-5 from 2, also quite efficient).  What he does do well is not taking the easy long jump shot if there is an open lane to the rim and what he did exceedingly well, and which I will talk about more in a bit, is follow Thomas to the rim for the putback offensive rebound.  His defense, also, is very solid fundamentally, he has been switching quickly and surely.  No comment can be made about Gigi, he hasn't played, but if we only end up keeping Jerebko for a good price (he's making $4.5M this year) then, Datome or no Datome, trading 34 year old Tayshaun Prince for Jerebko was robbery, pure and simple.  As a rule I don't like the +/- stat but when an entire unit, in this case the bench, have almost the same +/- then it says a little more because it suggests they played together for extended minutes as a unit and Jerebko was a +22 as was most of the bench.  Only Jae Crowder was a +15 (still pretty good) but he played with the starters a lot.

2.  Mighty Mouse is a volume shooter.  How's that for understatement?  He took 22fgas yesterday, hitting 9.  At the half he was 3-9 in 15 minutes of play but 6-13 in the 2nd half.  "I didn't score enough points with 9fgas?  No problem, I'll just take 13 in the 2nd half!".  I think I said something to the effect of "this is the good news, bad news about Thomas", referring to the wide swings in his performances.  Then he went nuts.  For a midget he's awful aggressive.  He goes to the rim every, single chance he gets.  Every. one.  If he doesn't have a lane he creates one.  Set a high screen for him and he's rocketing down the lane.  That's the good news.  The bad news is that he doesn't finish as well as we'd like because, well, he's a midget.  What Jonas Jerebko learned, and taught Avery Bradley in the process, is that the thing to do with Isaiah is to follow him to the rim.  Thomas hits, turn around and get back on defense. If he misses he'll draw the defense to him and you'll get an offensive rebound at the front of the rim because he throws up soft spinners that may rim out.  Jerebko got one and almost got another (Thomas was fouled).  Bradley, late in the 4th as we were looking for some backbreaking plays, got two putback dunks off of Thomas drive-and-misses.  Tommy said that Thomas is the best at driving to the hoop with complete reckless disregard for his body since Tiny Archibald.  Once his teammates learn more about him even Thomas' misses will have value since there will be a Celtic board party at the iron when he does.  His aggressiveness will pay off either way.  He was also 8-10 from the line.  28 points total with 8 of them freebies.  Nice, very nice.  We only took 15ftas, so he is a major, major contributor here.  Factor his ability to put the Celtics into the bonus as another plus he brings to the table.  One of our numerous deficiencies pre-trade deadline was our inability to get to the line.  Other teams were beating us just because they were getting tons more freebies than us.  I have nothing bad to say about Thornton, I liked him, but Thomas is what we needed more than what Thornton gave us and in the final month or so of this season we're going to see this get even better as the players figure it all out.  Another steal by Danny.

3.  Crowder was doing a little bit of everything last night.  He was guarding multiple positions, he was hitting 3s (4-8 from Swampscott), 6 rebounds and a steal.  14 points for a bench role player (who plays as many roles as Peter Sellers in Dr. Strangelove) who is averaging 12.2ppg in his last 10 games but whose career scoring average is only 5.2.  Is this Danny finding another diamond in the rough?  Is this Brad seeing the fortes of the roster he's given and squeezing the last drop of benefit out of them?  Or is this just Jae Crowder unchained?  Regardless, this guy is a keeper.  He's another James Posey to us.  He's a multi-position defender who can hit the 3 and provides that intangible oomph a team needs to get going.  Unlike Posey, though, Crowder will take it to the rack if he sees daylight.

4.  Tyler Zeller started out like a house on fire against his older brother Cody.  Rebounding like crazy, 2 blocks in the first quarter, scoring well and then he faded.  Again.  There's a reason why Brad is going small-ball so often and it isn't just the quality performances delivered by Crowder and, recently, Jerebko.  It's because Zeller's motor is, at this point, becoming suspect.  A nice back up center, which we needed too, but not the answer.

5.  This is the best game I've seen Mo Williams play since he was in Cleveland (I didn't see his 52 point game this season).  He was unconscious, especially from 3.  That's why I say the absence of Kemba Walker wasn't that big a deal.  No disrespect to Walker but if he's on the floor then either he's shooting or Williams is shooting an Williams' shooting was pretty frippin' good.

6.  James Young was credited with 3 steals.  I didn't see them.  What I saw was his usual poor defense.  His 1-5 shooting and 0-4 from 3 wasn't good either.  I have yet to see him play a good game since I've been back.  I'm ready to see Gigi.  

7.  Heading into this game the Boston Celtics led the league in fgas/game with 88.  Last night they probably increased their lead by taking 96.  They didn't shoot a good percentage, only 41.7% but when you take 14 more fgas than your opponents, play good defense so their fg% isn't significantly better than yours (Charlotte shot 45.1%) and keep ftas close (17-15) that makes up for that.  High volume basketball backed up with good defense.  Sound familiar?  And this is without a rim protector.  It's just good defensive schemes being executed by players with energy and complete commitment and faith in their coaches, the system and their teammates.

8.  I have no idea what happened to Jason Maxiell last night.  13 minutes of nothing.  Not complaining of course, but that is not usual.

9.  Noah Vonleh, whom some people thought we should have taken instead of Smart, was a healthy DNP.  Good drafting by Danny or is the draft a crap shoot or both?

10.  We had 19 fast break points last night vs 10 by them.  Love it.  38 points in the paint for us vs 28 for them despite the fact that all 12 of Big Al's fgm points were in the paint.  How often do we outscore teams in the paint?  Rim protector or no rim protector they didn't do much damage inside.  A lot of that was good defensive switching by Jerebko, Crowder and others.  Love that too.  Only 8 turnovers for the Celtics and the Bobcats only got 8 points out of them.  Splendid.  Jae Crowder with 0 TOs, so I guess he didn't throw many "Crowders".  They had 16 TOs and we got 21 points off of them.  That's great.  Just so much to like about this game (other than the 6 minutes of scoreless ball).

11.  I don't usually talk much about Brad, or the refs, since it's the players who have to go out and execute and adapt but I'm very impressed with how he is progressing.  He drew up some nice ATO plays last night that produced points.  He is getting his players to play with energy regardless of the score.  They believe, they truly believe, and that's half the battle.  I can't remember the last time I've seen a Celtic team with so many roster changes in a single season (I think 22 players have played for Brad this year) but, in the Phoenix and NYK and Charlotte game, they looked coherent and like they had some chemistry and, God Knows, they are utterly dauntless.  Pretty good production from a guy who is only a sophomore coach who has had more stuff added and subtracted from his experiment than a HS chem lab test.

I'm feeling pretty good this morning about this team.  They showed something last night and not just that they have heart, which we've seen before.  They showed they can execute to a victory and that's big.  They showed they are undismayed by playing bad basketball.  I have to give Brad's even-tempered demeanor credit for that.  They showed they won't lose their cool and blow themselves apart when the officiating is as bad as I've seen it in a while.

We are now tied with Charlotte for 9th, so this was a BIG win for the "just win, baby" crowd (and a big loss for the tankers).  They might own the tiebreaker since I see they are listed ahead of us in the standings and only 1/2 game behind Indy for the #8 spot.  Miami, at #7, is only 1 1/2 games ahead of us.

Next game is an extremely tough one, GSW at home tomorrow.  EXTREMELY tough.  After that we go to Cleveland.  Two very, very tough games.
Charlotte has it easier at Orlando.
Brooklyn, which is also crowding us, is at Dallas.  They host GSW after us.  Two tough games.
Indy in a cake-walk, hosting the 26ers and then get the night off against the Knicks.
Miami is hosting Atlanta and then Phoenix.  Tough games too.

So, it will be tough for us to hold our playoff position through the rest of this week (the sun breaks through the clouds for the tankers) but with a little help we could not slip much and there is still March to play.  We are 7-3 for our last 10.  Only Indy and Cleveland have done as well in the east, also going 7-3.

Tell the truth, if I told you in January we'd be playing as well as Cleveland over the 2 weeks before and 2 weeks after the all star game wouldn't you think I had lost all sense of proportion and reality?  Well...?

Go Celtics.  I'm liking what I'm seeing, warts and all.


bob



.

[Sloopjohnb]

I really like what I've seen of Thomas. He reminds me of either a mangoose or of Calvin Murphy.

I wonder if he's as hard-nosed as Murphy was. I recall Murphy once had a fight with Sidney Wicks who was a foot taller. Murphy grabbed Wicks by his 'fro, pulled him down to his level and whooped him good.

The only time I was cheering for an opponent to beat up a Celtic--though with Wicks that identity only went uniform deep.

[bobheckler]

berlin this might just be a couple games of role players playing over their head, and he couldn't hold Red Auerbachs jock strap. Franchises like Cleveland and Miami are set at the 5 and we all know Dannys failures to land a rim protector/load in the paint for years now? He crippled this franchise when his 2 HoFers had a year or 2 left at all star level.

Having said that I do like Isiah Thomas. Glad we have 2 good teams coming up, we better make it to the lottery, if Lakers get Towns or Okafor I'm gonna be sick.

cow,

You do realize that Pierce has not been in an all star game since he left, right?  You do realize he's only playing 26.8mpg this year and is only averaging 12.6ppg, right?  Even on a /minute basis, you do realize his scoring average this year is the worst of his career and last year was only slightly better, right?  KG was an all-star last year but that was a gift because his game has fallen off, right?  You have been keeping up with that KG's scoring average in Brooklyn was only 6.5ppg in while only playing 20mpg, right?  Those players, as much as I love Pierce and want to have KG's love child, are not the players you are remembering in green and their production dropped, precipitously, starting the year after Danny traded them.  Even if we kept them, with their salaries, we would have been so salary capped we could not have surrounded them with the players they needed given their age and fall-off in production, to have a legit chance at a championship.  We were on the slippery slope, as Danny realized and Billy King learned to his dismay.  Prokhorov is stripping his team down to save money and is trying to sell his team.  Think that would be happening if the Pierce/KG trade worked out for them?  Danny owns Mikhail Prokhorov and Billy King's souls through 2018 and all the players they got in that trade are gone, replaced by, in essence, Thaddeus Young.  I really like Thaddeus Young but is he worth Gerald Wallace's contract and 3 first round picks from a lottery-bound team that is selling off assets, which is what we are left with after all is said and done?  Hell no.

And why is Miami set at 5?  Bosh is out with health problems.  Who else do they have?  Hassan Whiteside?  Let's wait before we sprinkle holy water on him, it has only been a year and a half.  He was a 2nd round pick by Sacto, who sent him down to the D-league multiple times, and has had left knee surgery already.  He played in China and Lebanon.  He was signed by Memphis, sent to D-league and then waived by Memphis.  After being cut by Memphis he was signed by Pat Riley.  What happened was that he was sent to the D-league, by Riley and was only recalled after that.  My point is that while Whiteside might be looking good now he looked like crap to several teams until now.  He wasn't a star in college, that's why he, a US based and scouted 7'er, was a 2nd rounder and he didn't explode onto the scene in the NBA.  Say what you will about Sacto, Memphis has a pretty good scouting department and they gave him a chance and then waived him.  Now that Bosh is out, let's see what happens to Miami.  If they don't make the playoffs (or if we catch them for 7th and they fall to 8th) then I'd say Danny's as-yet uncompleted complete rebuild is more effective than Riley's partial rebuild where he replaced LBJ with Deng.  The Heat, with Whiteside and Deng but without LBJ, is SIGNIFICANTLY worse.  The Celtics, without a rim protector and roster bouncing like popcorn, are improving.  Even if Bosh comes back next year, DWade is almost done, Birdman Anderson is almost 37 years old.  Who would you feel better about?

Lighten up, big guy, we're on the upswing.

bob


.

[dboss]

We are starting to see a little magic.  The common denominator historically always took us by surprise.  Then it happens once you realize that The Celtics are not be  overlooked.  With contributions coming from sources that were not even on the radar when the season began the WOW factor is back in play.

Last night I heard Tommy say what was also on my mind.  This Thomas kid plays like Tiny Archibald when he was younger.  We were blessed with having Tiny on the backend of his career and we were still amazed at how good he was then.

Isaiah Thomas gets to wherever he wants to get on the floor.  Like Tiny he is a southpaw and has a great handle.  On top of that he is extremely quick, looks for contact on his drives and makes the most of his foul shots.

If that was not enough to wet your appetite he also will knock down a shot from deep to keep you from cheating.  I guess I never really watched him play before.  He was just another guard with some pretty good stats.  Now I am like WOW.  In the midst of the blizzard, Danny acquire a flat out baller.

It seems to good to be true.

Thomas has go to mentality with the ball in his hands.   Last night was another confirmation of how talented his is.

But the biggest surprise has to be Jonas Jerebko.  Okay it has only been 3 games but am I the only one here that thinks he is our stretch 4 upgrade over KO.  At 231 he is lean but that does not seem to prevent him from rebounding outside of his space.  No doubt, he has a nose for the ball and the quickness to go after it.  The Celtics are playing small ball and he is the perfect fit.

The only deficit for the team and the possibility of a playoff run is in the post.  Stevens should be talking to Tommy about how to play small and still defend the post.

With KO returning soon that should add more size despite KO's limitations.  

For a team that is in the midst of a monumental rebuild they already have significant depth with the most recent additions.

The play of Crowder at both ends has eliminated any negative results from trading Jeff Green and his defense.  Crowder actually plays tougher on D in the post than Green did.  His offensive game is developing.  He can definitely knock down shots when he gets himself set.  He misses reflect him being off balance at times on the shot.  His handle is probably the other thing he needs to work on.  It will be fun watching his development (Provided of course that he does not become fodder for the next big trade).

I still think that the team takes too many three's especially early in the shot clock.  That however has not preventing them from becoming very explosive off the bench.  

Sunday will be a test with the Warriors making their visit.  They were not happy being humiliated by Lebron James and the Cavs last night.  I expect they will come out with an intention to blow Boston out of the gym early and often.

The mental toughness of the team will be tested.  With the defense looking quicker and the offense finding open shots the Celtics should be very competitive tomorrow.

dboss

[Sam]

I believe it should be clarified that, when the chips were down in the 4th quarter, Crowder wasn't switching onto Jefferson.  According to Brad (and what I observed) Jae was assigned to guard Big A.  Brad noted that Jae's ability to guard the low post, where he's at a height disadvantage but not a strength disadvantage, gives Brad flexibility in going small.

The fact that, even as we're watching Tyler Zeller being worn down by the grind of playing stronger opposition, we're seeing Brad experiment with Crowder and Jerebko at the "5" rather than playing Randolph says a lot about Brad's assessment of Shav at his current stage of develpment.

It's not as though Brad were afraid to give minutes (18 last night) to someone who's essentially untested.  He has proven that in sticking with James Young, for whom "underwhelming" is a kind description.  And I'm not talking primarily about James' defense.  It seems that he has (at best) one shining offensive moment per game—a three-pointer one night and the alley-oop last night.  He's getting a lot of minutes to strut his stuff, including minutes in crunch time, but he ain't struttin' much as far as I can see.  He appears to be thinking way too much, and the instinctive touch that a good shooter thrives on seems to be missing in his case.

I'm not claiming that there's any reason for the team to give up on Young.  In fact, I have to applaud Brad for giving him the minutes that so may board members were clamoring for a few months ago.  And, in doing so, Brad's putting a lot of pressure on himself to find ways to make it work.

Yes, there's always the fact that the start to Young's season was hampered by injuries, although that excuse is getting a trifle old.  And, yes, there's always the fact that he has been very successful in his DL outings, although we've all participated in conversations about the talent gap between DL and NBA players.

I'm just commenting on the fact that, when James is in the game, the Celtics are essentially playing 4 on 5.  Which makes the team's recent fourth quarter performances all the more impressive because he has had more than his share of fourth quarter minutes—thankfully not at the very end of games.

It's possible that Brad is simply sticking to his guns by playing Young in hopes that James will somehow break through whatever barriers lie between him and legitimate rotation status.  It's also possible that Brad is scrounging minutes with which to approximate a 9-man rotation even though the rotation really consists of 8 contributors: Zeller, Bass, Jerebko, Crowder, Turner, Bradley, Smart and Mighty Mite.

Whatever the ins and outs of the rotation, it is clear that the most competitive two-way team the Celtics can field is a comparatively small one.  It's basically Bass, Crowder, Bradley, Thomas, and either Smart (if Brad's looking for stops) or Turner (if Brad's looking for more offense).  Or, on occasion, Brad can make Jerebko his only true big while plugging Crowder into the defensive center spot as he did down the stretch last night.

The absence of an intimidator is obvious to the point of conversational tedium.  But a lot of people are too ready to sell short on going small.  The first two great Celtics teams were usually shorter in stature than their adversaries, and yet they won 13 championships between them.  Smaller teams usually win the speed, agility and energy battles; and they can often wear down behemoths who are lugging a lot of lard around with them.

Going small is not a long-term solution, to be sure, because there are other teams that can match small for small.  But the current iteration of this team (even though it sometimes is saddled with a very tentative player named Young) is proving to be exciting, feisty (loved the use of that word by Thomas in a post-game interview), and emerging owners of a winning mentality.  Tomorrow, they'll be playing a team with amazing assets.  But, whether the Celtics win or lose, I'll finally have cause to harbor legitimate hopes as I root for them.

Go Celtics!

Sam

[Berlin-T]

berlin this might just be a couple games of role players playing over their head, and he couldn't hold Red Auerbachs jock strap. Franchises like Cleveland and Miami are set at the 5 and we all know Dannys failures to land a rim protector/load in the paint for years now? He crippled this franchise when his 2 HoFers had a year or 2 left at all star level.

Having said that I do like Isiah Thomas. Glad we have 2 good teams coming up, we better make it to the lottery, if Lakers get Towns or Okafor I'm gonna be sick.

Cowens, I understand you've never recovered from the Perkins trade and your frustration that we still haven't a dominant center. However Danny is still rebuilding and I'm confident that when the opportunity arises Ainge will come through. I also admit that "this might just be a couple games of role players playing over their head". However it is also possible that they are not playing over their heads but rather are playing up to their potential. Only time will tell whether your or my assessment is correct. As far as Danny not being able to carry Red's jockstrap: considering the complicated salary cap and salary structures that Auerbach didn't have to put up with I feel Danny is a worthy successor. He has brought us one championship and I'm pretty sure there are more on the way. Anyway I hope you'll be able to enjoy watching this team grow. As for me I'm having one hell of a good time this year.
Go Celtics!

Berlin-T

[cowens/oldschool]

berlin this might just be a couple games of role players playing over their head, and he couldn't hold Red Auerbachs jock strap. Franchises like Cleveland and Miami are set at the 5 and we all know Dannys failures to land a rim protector/load in the paint for years now? He crippled this franchise when his 2 HoFers had a year or 2 left at all star level.

Having said that I do like Isiah Thomas. Glad we have 2 good teams coming up, we better make it to the lottery, if Lakers get Towns or Okafor I'm gonna be sick.

cow,

You do realize that Pierce has not been in an all star game since he left, right?  You do realize he's only playing 26.8mpg this year and is only averaging 12.6ppg, right?  Even on a /minute basis, you do realize his scoring average this year is the worst of his career and last year was only slightly better, right?  KG was an all-star last year but that was a gift because his game has fallen off, right?  You have been keeping up with that KG's scoring average in Brooklyn was only 6.5ppg in while only playing 20mpg, right?  Those players, as much as I love Pierce and want to have KG's love child, are not the players you are remembering in green and their production dropped, precipitously, starting the year after Danny traded them.  Even if we kept them, with their salaries, we would have been so salary capped we could not have surrounded them with the players they needed given their age and fall-off in production, to have a legit chance at a championship.  We were on the slippery slope, as Danny realized and Billy King learned to his dismay.  Prokhorov is stripping his team down to save money and is trying to sell his team.  Think that would be happening if the Pierce/KG trade worked out for them?  Danny owns Mikhail Prokhorov and Billy King's souls through 2018 and all the players they got in that trade are gone, replaced by, in essence, Thaddeus Young.  I really like Thaddeus Young but is he worth Gerald Wallace's contract and 3 first round picks from a lottery-bound team that is selling off assets, which is what we are left with after all is said and done?  Hell no.

And why is Miami set at 5?  Bosh is out with health problems.  Who else do they have?  Hassan Whiteside?  Let's wait before we sprinkle holy water on him, it has only been a year and a half.  He was a 2nd round pick by Sacto, who sent him down to the D-league multiple times, and has had left knee surgery already.  He played in China and Lebanon.  He was signed by Memphis, sent to D-league and then waived by Memphis.  After being cut by Memphis he was signed by Pat Riley.  What happened was that he was sent to the D-league, by Riley and was only recalled after that.  My point is that while Whiteside might be looking good now he looked like crap to several teams until now.  He wasn't a star in college, that's why he, a US based and scouted 7'er, was a 2nd rounder and he didn't explode onto the scene in the NBA.  Say what you will about Sacto, Memphis has a pretty good scouting department and they gave him a chance and then waived him.  Now that Bosh is out, let's see what happens to Miami.  If they don't make the playoffs (or if we catch them for 7th and they fall to 8th) then I'd say Danny's as-yet uncompleted complete rebuild is more effective than Riley's partial rebuild where he replaced LBJ with Deng.  The Heat, with Whiteside and Deng but without LBJ, is SIGNIFICANTLY worse.  The Celtics, without a rim protector and roster bouncing like popcorn, are improving.  Even if Bosh comes back next year, DWade is almost done, Birdman Anderson is almost 37 years old.  Who would you feel better about?

Lighten up, big guy, we're on the upswing.

bob


.

bob I love Pierce, I'm well aware of that. I'm not condemning Ainge for the Brooklyn fleecing, it was the 11 season that he crippled the team with the Perk trade, when Lebron hadn't gotten it together yet as he had a terrible Final vs Mavs.... then in 12, even without Jeff Green we took Miami to 7 in ECF.

[Sam]

One man's "playing over their heads" is another man's "taking it to a new level."  Some people love Christmas, and others call it a "humbug."  Some people call the glass half full, and others want to examine the contents for poison.

Brad is doing the best he can with what he has.  Danny has given Brad and the team a figurative short-term adrenalin shot, as well as better positioning the team to succeed in the future, by his moves.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm totally committed to searching for the most promising aspects of the progress of the Celtics.  That doesn't mean I don't recognize the negatives, as anyone who reads the Game-on Threads or Post-game Threads can testify.  I guess it's a matter of how one balances the positives with messages of humbug.

Sam

[cowens/oldschool]

berlin this might just be a couple games of role players playing over their head, and he couldn't hold Red Auerbachs jock strap. Franchises like Cleveland and Miami are set at the 5 and we all know Dannys failures to land a rim protector/load in the paint for years now? He crippled this franchise when his 2 HoFers had a year or 2 left at all star level.

Having said that I do like Isiah Thomas. Glad we have 2 good teams coming up, we better make it to the lottery, if Lakers get Towns or Okafor I'm gonna be sick.

Cowens, I understand you've never recovered from the Perkins trade and your frustration that we still haven't a dominant center. However Danny is still rebuilding and I'm confident that when the opportunity arises Ainge will come through. I also admit that "this might just be a couple games of role players playing over their head". However it is also possible that they are not playing over their heads but rather are playing up to their potential. Only time will tell whether your or my assessment is correct. As far as Danny not being able to carry Red's jockstrap: considering the complicated salary cap and salary structures that Auerbach didn't have to put up with I feel Danny is a worthy successor. He has brought us one championship and I'm pretty sure there are more on the way. Anyway I hope you'll be able to enjoy watching this team grow. As for me I'm having one hell of a good time this year.
Go Celtics!

Berlin-T

your right my friend I'm still bitter that Danny blew a championship in 11 that was there for our taking, Danny made a great move fleecing the Nets and has gotten some potentially good young players for nothing, however passing on Gobert who is gonna lead the league in blocked shots for years possibly, proves to me Danny sucks at choosing big men, as his past history also proves that....I could build us a better team with his same resources, hes not a moron, just a Mormon.

[dboss]

BobH

I think that Danny has already begun the process of addressing the 5.  Tyler Zeller was the first acquisition and now we are all waiting for him to find that starting Center.  Zeller is probably a very solid backup playing 20 MPG

The yet to be acquired starting center will bring balance to the rotation,  Ainge has way too many assets to messed this up.  

I think the biggest question is not if the will get a starting quality center but when.  The 2nd biggest question I have concerns Sully's  future

While they miss his toughness rebounding the basketball, the team is decidedly quicker without him on the court.

I think that Danny Ainge will end up trading him although his recent season ending injury may extend the time when that can happen. Sully has now been publically put on notice that the Celtics are less than satisfied with his commitment to improving his body.

Ainge may even feel compelled to package him along with a pick or 2 to move up in the draft or acquire a veteran center.

dboss

[dboss]

I have a question and I would like your onion.  I also have an opinion so I guess I am interested in your agreement or disagreement with my opinion.

It is about Marcus Smart

He is up to 32 MPG in February and his scoring was a shade under 10 PPG but I am concerned about the shots that he  takes.  In February he put up a season high 8.7 shots per game however 5.1 of those shots were 3 point attempts.  His overall FG % is at .354 and his 3 PT percentage is .268

It is my opinion that Marcus may be a rather poor offensive player.  His college stats seem to support what I am seeing.  Further, he does not appear to have lead guard skills either.  His ball handling is shaky under pressure and he rarely gets to the rim.  Most of his 4.8 assists come from side to side passing (Feb numbers).  What I appreciate most about him is his toughness on the defensive end although he is not yet a proven defensive stopper.

So what I see is a high draft pick that has fallen below expectations.  

Danny may have reached on this pick.  He is not a knock down shooter off the ball and he struggles to create shots for others.

What do you think.

Will Marcus become a shooter off the ball that does not hurt the Celtics offense?
Can he play point guard?

dboss

[beat]

He is only 20.

beat

[mrkleen09]

Great game. Really fun team to watch. Enjoying every minute of it.

[cowens/oldschool]

bob

Whiteside had 14 points and 24 rebounds tonite without Bosh, Riley got really lucky, but he still had the gumption to give this kid another shot. Hes been doing this for a decent stretch now, I don't think its a fluke. If we can't get a young Intimidator in the draft, I'd be thrilled if we signed him, but can't see Riley letting him go anywhere. Why did you think he would do worse without Bosh? Now if anything he'll get more shots and there will be more rebounds for him too.

cow

[cowens/oldschool]

I have a question and I would like your onion.  I also have an opinion so I guess I am interested in your agreement or disagreement with my opinion.

It is about Marcus Smart

He is up to 32 MPG in February and his scoring was a shade under 10 PPG but I am concerned about the shots that he  takes.  In February he put up a season high 8.7 shots per game however 5.1 of those shots were 3 point attempts.  His overall FG % is at .354 and his 3 PT percentage is .268

It is my opinion that Marcus may be a rather poor offensive player.  His college stats seem to support what I am seeing.  Further, he does not appear to have lead guard skills either.  His ball handling is shaky under pressure and he rarely gets to the rim.  Most of his 4.8 assists come from side to side passing (Feb numbers).  What I appreciate most about him is his toughness on the defensive end although he is not yet a proven defensive stopper.

So what I see is a high draft pick that has fallen below expectations.  

Danny may have reached on this pick.  He is not a knock down shooter off the ball and he struggles to create shots for others.

What do you think.

Will Marcus become a shooter off the ball that does not hurt the Celtics office?
Can he play point guard?

dboss

I too thought he had greater ability to get to the rim, maybe he's still favoring that ankle he sprained earlier in the season. I see all his FG% going up, as beat said he's only 20. I see him as a combo guard that has intangibles and the work ethic to improve.

[Sam]

Dboss,

I've had my doubts about Smart's offense too, but I've held off on expressing them because he's just a rookie being asked to fill the position I believe is the most complex (and probably most mportant) on the team.

When I read any post that's based partly on stats, I always immediately ask myself whether there's anything missing in the way the stats were collected or interpreted.  In this case, my first thought was that it's unfair to evaluate Smart's offense based on the total season because it doesn't allow for possible improvement over time.  So I went to his splits and found some interesting stuff:

1. His three-point attempts as a percentage of his total shot attempts have generally gone down as the season has progressed (aside from a slight bump in January):

Nov. 72.6%
Dec. 61.9%
Jan. 63.9%
Feb. 58.6%

2. So Marcus' trend of favoring the three is in a generally favorable downward direction. However, even if he were have it down to 40% by the end of the season, that would be much too high a proportion of threes as far as I'm concerned.  This is especially true since his accuracy trend in shooting threes has not stabilized at a high figure:

Nov. 23.8%
Dec. 37.9%
Jan. 42.4%
Feb. 26.8%

3. Meanwhile, his two-point shooting percentage in February was his highest of the season-to-date:

Nov. 35.0%
Dec. 43.8%
Jan. 36.4%
Feb. 47.2%

4. I'm not at all certain that this is a stable figure, because it has gone up, down, and then up again.  But, if his two-point shooting percentage is truly on the rise, that's all the more reason to shoot a higher proportion of twos and a lower proportion of threes.  Here are the differences between the accuracy of his two-point shooting and his three-point shooting:

Nov. Shot 35.0% from two and 23.8% from three for a plurality of 11.2 points from two
Dec. Shot 43.8% from two and 37.9% from three for a plurality of 5.9 points from two
Jan. Shot 36.4% from two and 42.4% from three for a plurality of 6.0 points from three
Feb. Shot 47.2% from two and 26.8% from three for a plurality of 20.0 points from two

Again, it's an uneven ride that favors the two-point shot because it's the most recent figure.  Was January an aberration?

5. The bottom line is that Marcus' three-point shooting has regressed, while his two-point shooting has improved as of February.  Meanwhile, he's taking a larger percentage of twos as the season progresses, which would seem to be trending in the right direction.  Just not fast enough, in my opinion.

6. I don't have splits on his shot locations (although I'm sure they exist, but I don't feel like making the effort).  It's been my impression that his reluctance to take the ball to the hoop has not abated during the season.  Small wonder that, although he's not nearly the defensive player Marcus is, Isaiah Thomas gets the nod from Brad over Marcus in the stretch runs of games.  Rondo was roundly castigated because of his foul shooting vulnerability in the clutch.  Shouldn't Smart be equally castigated because (despite hitting a big three now and then) his lack of penetration ability is a similar vulnerability in the clutch?

7. Offensively, I would have to say the jury's decidedly out on Smart. But not so much just because he shoots too many threes to be justified by his three-point shooting percentage (although its instability should be an ongoing concern).  More because his lack of driving ability or propensity represents a deterrent from having him in the game at crunch time.

8. Moreover, I may be one of the few who find any fault with Marcus' defense.  As I have posted several times recently, I think he's much more defensively effective against guys his size or bigger than against smaller, speedier players.  In other words, I think he defends "2s" better than a lot of "1s" (who elude him like he's standing still, which is sometimes exactly what he's doing).

9. What about his progress as a floor general?  He makes a nice pass once in a while, but I view any player who almost always stops short at the arc when bringing the ball up the floor as an indecisive floor general (and that's being kind).  I know a lot of people will plead to give him time in his quest to become a serviceable floor general, just as they pleaded to give Avery Bradley some time in becoming a serviceable floor general.  I'm of the school that believes either the floor general instinct is pretty much there already or it's unlikely to appear magically in the future.  Marcus' attack mentality extends mainly to the three-point arc and the defensive side.

10. So my current conclusion about Marcus Smart is that there's good news and there's bad news.  The good news goes beyond his defense, which I believe is suspect against small, speedy "1s."  The other good news is that he does have a role on the Celtics, as currently constituted, by being part of a disruptive late game defensive effort in going for the close-out and helping to fatigue the opponent throughout the game.  And he's certainly not bashful about taking threes down the stretch—and often making them.  I read in one article that he shoots 10 percentage points better from beyond the arc when his shot is contested than when it isn't contested.  He's probably one of only two Celtics (the other being Thomas) who can say that.

11. The bad news is that he could wind up being a man without a position.  I've always thought his potential as a "2" was better than his potential as a "1," which was one reason (of many, as it turns out) why I was so happy when Thomas came along.  The only reason I have backed off on my desire to see Thomas start is that I gain so much enjoyment out of watching Isaiah and Crowder playing the last 18 minutes of every close game as a tandem and plying their respective forms of disruption of the opponent.

12. But SG is a position at which defense alone is seldom enough.  Will Marcus become the kind of well-rounded offensive attack threat to function as well in the clutch as, say, Dennis Johnson?  Will Marcus eventually offer the same kind of dual threat as D.J. did with his jumper from the key and his drives to the hoop (who could forget his bang-bang collaborations with Larry?)?

13. I don't know any other current Celtic who has as much uncertainty swirling around him as Marcus Smart has.  On the other hand, there may be no other current Celtic who has as much sheer potential as Marcus Smart has.  The key question is how much of that potential can be developed over time?

Sam

[Berlin-T]

Sam, I was thinking the same concerning a comparison of Smart and Dennis Johnson. Johnson's game improved and became more varied the longer he played. What I like about Smart is his intensity and the fact that he shoots well in the clutch. Still a rookie, he has time for improvement.
Berlin-T

[kdp59]

Glad to see some others jumping on the Thomas bandwagon with me.

[dboss]

Beat

Yes Marcus is still a pup and I am more than willing to hope for his continued development. But you did not share your thought on this. It is not like age is the ultimate factor.

will he become a reliable shooter?
will his ball handling and overall play making ability improve?
Was his selection at # 6 a reach?

This is not meant to impugn the selection since it is not always apparent that a player has IT given a small sample size.

dboss

[gyso]

Sam,

In #7, did you mean to type "Rondo"?

In #8, "4s" and "5s" are power forwards and centers.  I think you may have meant "1s" and "2s".  You got it right in #10 and #11.  A rule of thumb, the bigger the number, the bigger the player, generally speaking.

Thanks for putting things in perspective.  He is improving as the season plays out.  

In regards to his progress, I'm with Beat.  He's only 20.  Time will tell where he ends up.

In addition, he is as tough as a bag of nails and backs down to no one.  It is great to have a player like that on the roster.

gyso

[beat]

Beat

Yes Marcus is still a pup and I am more than willing to hope for his continued development.  But you did not share your thought on this.  It is not like age is the ultimate factor.

will he become a reliable shooter?
will his ball handling and overall play making ability improve?
Was his selection at # 6 a reach?

This is not meant to impugn the selection since it is not always apparent that a player has IT given a small sample size.  

dboss

Age to me IS the most important factor right now

How many Rookies in any year have played as much at a guard position? Does the teams LEVEL of play seem to increase with him on the floor? I'm not concerned with his numbers period. We have a keeper.

beat

[bobheckler]

BobH

I think that Danny has already begun the process of addressing the 5.  Tyler Zeller was the first acquisition and now we are all waiting for him to find that starting Center.  Zeller is probably a very solid backup playing 20 MPG

The yet to be acquired starting center will bring balance to the rotation,  Ainge has way too many assets to messed this up.  

I think the biggest question is not if the will get a starting quality center but when.  The 2nd biggest question I have concerns Sully's  future

While they miss his toughness rebounding the basketball, the team is decidedly quicker without him on the court.

I think that Danny Ainge will end up trading him although his recent season ending injury may extend the time when that can happen. Sully has now been publically put on notice that the Celtics are less than satisfied with his commitment to improving his body.

Ainge may even feel compelled to package him along with a pick or 2 to move up in the draft or acquire a veteran center.

dboss

dboss,

No other team sport I can think of relies so much on individual talent levels as basketball.  There are only 5 players on the court at any time and the starters usually get 75-80% of the total playing time.  A weakness at a starting position, therefore, is a BIG deal.  I'd rather have Danny take another year or two and find the right center for us than to lock someone up longterm who will be on the short-end of a mismatch in any EC Finals or Championship series.

We had no center to speak of last year.  Now we have Zeller.  I agree with everything you said in your post.  I agree Danny has started addressing the problem with Zeller.  I agree he is working on getting a starting center and has too many assets to screw it up.  In fact, he has accumulated so many assets in a short time he not only has too many assets to screw it up that, even if he does screw it up, he has enough assets to hit reset and try again.  I agree he has started addressing the ongoing Sully weight problem.  I love Sully but if he's only a part-year player because his body breaks down from his weight then he isn't our solution and that would suck since I love his game, but it's all about #18 and always has been ever since we got #17.


bob



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