Re: Celtics Clinch Playoff spot

by **kdp59** Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:39 am

tjmakz wrote:
kdp59 wrote:total championships won by the #3 pick in the draft:

J. Embiid- ZERO
O. Porter- ZERO ( 3 playoff games)
B. Beal- ZERO (11 playoff games)
E. Kanter- ZERO (4 playoff games)
D. Favors- ZERO (4 playoff games)
J. Harden- ZERO (55 playoff games)
OJ Mayo- ZERO ( 20 playoff games)
A. Horford- ZERO (48 playoff games)
A. Morrison- ZERO (2 playoff games)
D. Williams- ZERO (63 playoff games)

that's TEN years of #3 picks in the draft. ZERO championship rings.

the average games played by those 10 players was 57 and the average minutes this year was a whopping 1680.

I'll take the playoffs myself.

Adam Morrison won two championships with the Lakers, in 2009 and 2010.
James Harden very well could have won a championship with OKC if they hadn't traded him to Houston. He might be the league MVP this season.
The young guys like Embiid, Porter, Beal, Kanter, etc haven't been there yet, but when you are drafted by a rebuilding team, you need to give them more than 3 years before talking about their lack of championships.

I missed that Adam Morrison got those rings (playing a COMBINED 39 games in those two years at LA).

that's changes everything I suppose. we should have tanked or better yet maybe we should just sign Morrison ( I think he's free)....LOL.

you get the point. a draft pick is all about HOPE.

many times it ends up being ONLY about hope.

playoffs.....PLAYOFFS!!

by **tjmakz** Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:10 am

kdp59 wrote:I read somewhere that the Celtics have the THIRD best record in the east since the trades.

that's not a losing team, folks.

trust your eyes.

will we beat the Cavs?

not likely as they are the BEST team in the east since the all-star break.

bad luck for us.
if we were playing Toronto in the first round, this thread would be about whether we can beat them in the series.

and the draft argument is NOT about having the #16 pick or the #3 pick. it's about having the #16 pick of the #14 pick.

since the 2010 draft ( five years) the teams with the #13 and #14 picks have moved up exactly ONE spot total in five years due to the lottery.

Hope is one thing, reality is something else.

If Boston missed the playoffs, they would have no worse than the 12th pick because Phoenix and OKC/New Orleans will probably be in spots 13 and 14.
So, the difference will probably be picking at #16 compared to picking at #12 with the hopes of getting a top 3 pick.
The Celtics do deserve that fans back them because they have played as hard as they can to make the playoffs.

by **beat** Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:11 am

KDP

And Adam Morrsion was a key factor in getting them (Lakers those rings) wasn't he. 13 total playoff minutes in 2 years !

Had about as much to do with them as Jim Morrison.........and he's dead.

Agree, would be nice having a higher pick but even then it's a crap shoot.
I'll take this season over what we anticipated in October.

beat

by **tjmakz** Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:23 am

kdp59 wrote:
tjmakz wrote:
kdp59 wrote:total championships won by the #3 pick in the draft:

J. Embiid- ZERO
O. Porter- ZERO ( 3 playoff games)
B. Beal- ZERO (11 playoff games)
E. Kanter- ZERO (4 playoff games)
D. Favors- ZERO (4 playoff games)
J. Harden- ZERO (55 playoff games)
OJ Mayo- ZERO ( 20 playoff games)
A. Horford- ZERO (48 playoff games)
A. Morrison- ZERO (2 playoff games)
D. Williams- ZERO (63 playoff games)

that's TEN years of #3 picks in the draft. ZERO championship rings.

the average games played by those 10 players was 57 and the average minutes this year was a whopping 1680.

I'll take the playoffs myself.

Adam Morrison won two championships with the Lakers, in 2009 and 2010.
James Harden very well could have won a championship with OKC if they hadn't traded him to Houston. He might be the league MVP this season.
The young guys like Embiid, Porter, Beal, Kanter, etc haven't been there yet, but when you are drafted by a rebuilding team, you need to give them more than 3 years before talking about their lack of championships.

I missed that Adam Morrison got those rings (playing a COMBINED 39 games in those two years at LA).

that's changes everything I suppose. we should have tanked or better yet maybe we should just sign Morrison ( I think he's free)....LOL.

you get the point. a draft pick is all about HOPE.

many times it ends up being ONLY about hope.

playoffs.....PLAYOFFS!!

Adam Morrison couldn't even make it overseas so he is now an assistant video coordinator for Gonzaga.
This is from his wiki page.
Morrison became an assistant video coordinator for the Zags for the 2014-15 season

I understand, we all want what is best for our team. If our team makes the playoffs, we want them to succeed.
If our team misses the playoffs, we want them to draft the best player available.

by **wide clyde** Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:44 am

There is nothing wrong with having differing opinions of how the Celtics will best rebuild their team.

I, for one, am very happy with being in the playoffs no matter what happens against any of the possible opponents.

No question that there are better teams in the playoffs (even in the East) than our Celtics, but you also never know what can happen in a short series.

I am thrilled that the Cs never even thought of tanking at any time this season. They may not have admitted to tanking last season, but they certainly were much more fun to watch and follow this year.

by **gyso** Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:57 am

I am glad that the Celtics will be in the playoffs.

Just imagine, if we had won just a couple of those games in March that we "should" have won (Orlando, Detroit, Miami), we could have finished the season at or above .500.

I don't think anyone predicted that we would be thatclose to 41 wins.

gyso

by **bobheckler** Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:24 am

gyso wrote:I am glad that the Celtics will be in the playoffs.

Just imagine, if we had won just a couple of those games in March that we "should" have won (Orlando, Detroit, Miami), we could have finished the season at or above .500.

I don't think anyone predicted that we would be thatclose to 41 wins.

gyso

gyso,

Nobody that wasn't in a rubber room.

bob

.

by **dboss** Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:49 am

This team has exceeded any an all expectations that I had for them.

Our lottery luck has not been very good since we missed out on Duncan so to me making the playoffs is more valuable. I understand that opinions differ here and I respect that.

Our players will be on the National Stage where other teams and GM's and fans can see how they play the game of basketball. All of a sudden our guys are looking pretty damn good!

Our players get to experience the NBA playoffs which can only enhance their confidence and abilities. We had some really great teams in the 2008-2013 seasons but this team is every bit as competitive as those teams were. As a matter of fact this team plays a purer Celtics style of basketball than those teams did. I am not suggesting that this team is as talented. I am looking at the beauty of the was they play the game basketball.

We need to start a How to Beat Cleveland Thread...They can be beat.

dboss

by **bobheckler** Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:55 am

kdp59 wrote:total championships won by the #3 pick in the draft:

J. Embiid- ZERO
O. Porter- ZERO ( 3 playoff games)
B. Beal- ZERO (11 playoff games)
E. Kanter- ZERO (4 playoff games)
D. Favors- ZERO (4 playoff games)
J. Harden- ZERO (55 playoff games)
OJ Mayo- ZERO ( 20 playoff games)
A. Horford- ZERO (48 playoff games)
A. Morrison- ZERO (2 playoff games)
D. Williams- ZERO (63 playoff games)

that's TEN years of #3 picks in the draft. ZERO championship rings.

the average games played by those 10 players was 57 and the average minutes this year was a whopping 1680.

I'll take the playoffs myself.

kdp,

Even taking into account TJ's correction about Adam Morrison (who did win a championship with the Lakers but was just slightly more impactful with his 13 total minutes and 8 total points, as Scot Pollard was for us; Pollard being cut before the playoffs and played zero minutes), that's a pretty damning list for those who tout the draft as the way to build a championship team. If you suck, then you suck and you take your draft pick and hopefully you make a good choice, but this list doesn't make it look like it's an effective way.

The reason, to me, is obvious. To get the #3 pick, you have to be a really, really shitty team and it's a long, long way from really, really shitty to World Champions. OKC sucked for several years straight, got a bunch of high picks (#2 Durant, #3 Harden, #4 Westbrook, #5 Green) and they still haven't won a championship. In fact, they are currently in 9th, losing the tie-breaker to NOP, with only 1 game left. Yeah, I know that Durant has been out, but injuries are part of the game. Suppose we drafted Towns, somehow, and he "pulled a Len Bias" on us? Or suppose he dropped like Reggie Lewis? My point is that having talent on the roster isn't enough. They have to play, they have to play up to their abilities and more in the playoffs, and the team must be built to match up well (e.g. The Spurs vs the Heat. TONS of talent on Miami, but they weren't built to handle Pop's game).

I'll take the playoffs too. 100% of the teams that do not make the playoffs do not win championships and 100% of the teams who have had the #3 pick in the draft over the past 10 years have not won a championship with the exception of the Lakers with Adam Morrison whose contributions to that ring were Chuck Nevitt-like. Nevitt won a championship with the Lakers too, in 1985. Played a total of 37 minutes. He was the 63rd pick, 3rd round. 37 minutes for a #63 pick makes sense, he's lucky to have a job at all. 13 minutes for a #3? That's the fallacy of draft.

We, as in NBA GMs and the fans, are ooohhhing and ahhhing over players that are one year (two years at most) out of high school and have never gone up against the best, toughest talent in the world, against full-grown men who have earned their place in the Darwinian world of the NBA, who have proven year after year that they truly are the biggest, baddest Mofos in the valley of death. We are a society that is enamored with youth, but this is ridiculous. Our obsession with freshman college players and projecting them into the roles played by men is the sports equivalent of kiddy porn.

bob

.

by **sinus007** Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:31 pm

dboss wrote:

We need to start a How to Beat Cleveland Thread...They can be beat.

dboss

Dboss,
How to beat Cleveland Cavs? Easy. Do the elbow thing to the king, declare hunting season on Irving (we have a couple of very good hounds) and Love the rest or rest the love or forget about Love.
Basketball

AK

by **Outside** Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:15 pm

How to beat Cleveland:

1. Rebound

2. Swarm on defense to cut down LeBron's iso drives to the hoop

3. Repeat

Irving may go off in a game or two, but there's not much you can do if he's hitting from deep and throwing everything in on his drives. It's the playoffs, and if Boston can win a game in Cleveland and get into their heads, LeBron is likely to revert to individual domination mode, making Irving less relevant. That's when Boston's swarming defense and rebounding can change LeBron's reliance on iso drives from a Cleveland weapon into an Achilles heel, just like the Spurs did in last year's finals. Run the motion offense relentlessly, expose Cleveland's weak bench, and force their starters to play 40+ minutes, which will wear on them mentally. Hope that J.R. Smith finds his inner knucklehead and jacks up 35-foot three-pointers and throws passes out of bounds. Show why having a very good coach is better than having a player hijack the coaching responsibilities.

Winning the series would obviously be great, but it's a long shot. Not getting swept and being competitive in each and every game isn't far-fetched in the least.

by **Sam** Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:40 pm

Perhaps there are three types of fans. Those who aspire to think like a player, those who aspire to think like a coach and those who aspire to think like a general manager. Each fan probably has elements of all three types.

But some people (with general manager mentalities) place particular emphasis on the business, trading and drafting strategies of basketball. Others (with coaching mentalities) place particular emphasis on the Xs and Os and player management aspects of basketball. And others (with player mentalities) place particular emphasis on a player's eye view of games, the rhythms experienced when playing the game, the honing of skills and instincts, the challenge of blending with four other guys to develop chemistry, and a "feel" for the more strategic aspects of play.

There's room for all three in basketball fandom. In each case, the challenge for the fan is to learn to think and feel like a general manager, coach, or player rather than to be content with trying to force fit a fan's perspective on any of the three mentalities.

Hopefully, a board such as this one can aid in the development of all three types of mentality.

Sam

by **beat** Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:41 pm

Beat the Cavs????

Make Bron a jump shooter...... don't foul him on the drives and let him get to the line a bazillion times either. Although not a great foul shooter he's good enough.

Make the Cavs play D too...not really a strong point for them........ swing the ball relentlessly, drive when opportunity is there. Let us get to the line not them.

Make a large % of open shots and keep them off the O boards as best we can.

Lastly............

pray a lot !!!

Still hoping for Atlanta anyway..........best way to beat the Cavs.... let someone else do it !!!

beat

by **sinus007** Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:33 pm

Beat,
I wouldn't put the probability to beat Atlanta much higher than probability to beat Cavs.
And I think it's going to be Cavs. Judging by the team's attitude and what Brad is doing, Celtics will continue to fight in the remaining 2 games against 2 teams that don't really care about the outcome (well, only one - Bucks), therefore - at least 1 win. OTOH, Indy has to get 2 wins against 2 good teams that can change their standing.
But no matter Cavs or Hawks, Celtics need to play one possession at a time, one quarter at a time, one game at a time, with "nothing to lose" attitude and they have a chance.

AK

by **Shamrock1000** Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:39 pm

sam wrote:Perhaps there are three types of fans. Those who aspire to think like a player, those who aspire to think like a coach and those who aspire to think like a general manager. Each fan probably has elements of all three types.

But some people (with general manager mentalities) place particular emphasis on the business, trading and drafting strategies of basketball. Others (with coaching mentalities) place particular emphasis on the Xs and Os and player management aspects of basketball. And others (with player mentalities) place particular emphasis on a player's eye view of games, the rhythms experienced when playing the game, the honing of skills and instincts, the challenge of blending with four other guys to develop chemistry, and a "feel" for the more strategic aspects of play.

There's room for all three in basketball fandom. In each case, the challenge for the fan is to learn to think and feel like a general manager, coach, or player rather than to be content with trying to force fit a fan's perspective on any of the three mentalities.

Hopefully, a board such as this one can aid in the development of all three types of mentality.

Sam

I like this idea, it provides a really nice framework for thinking about 'fandom'.

by **Sam** Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:59 pm

Shamrock,

Speaking only for myself, the idea of three definable segments gives me a better understanding of fans other then myself. That's always a plus.

Sam

by **dbrown4** Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:09 pm

Great, great season for the Celtics!! We will probably never see a rebuild like this again that centered on dumping a mercurial point guard and a very good forward. Initially, it looked like we were shooting ourselves in the foot, but alas, Danny masterfully gets a team in half a season to the playoffs.

Truly amazing! Go Celtics!! And since they will be on national tv, I can finally see all you guys have been witnessing since I bailed on League Pass!

db

by **cowens/oldschool** Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:52 pm

gyso wrote:I am glad that the Celtics will be in the playoffs.

Just imagine, if we had won just a couple of those games in March that we "should" have won (Orlando, Detroit, Miami), we could have finished the season at or above .500.

I don't think anyone predicted that we would be thatclose to 41 wins.

gyso

your excited that this team could have stole a few more games and got to 41 wins....boy thats gonna be a season worth remembering!!!

I want a team that every year wins 60 games on autopilot, thats what this franchise is about, because of Brads great coaching we got to where we are, this is a flawed team, all we have is the makings of a backcourt. 112288 thinks we need a whole new frontline to contend and he may be right.....

KO leads this team in blocked shots, nuff said, how flawed is the East? we would be real bottom dwellers in the West....now watch Miami or Indiana get a lottery pick.

by **beat** Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:03 pm

Cowens

I respect your opinion

BUT totally disagree.

Win every time you walk on the court, or try too anyway

beat

by **bobheckler** Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:31 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:
gyso wrote:I am glad that the Celtics will be in the playoffs.

Just imagine, if we had won just a couple of those games in March that we "should" have won (Orlando, Detroit, Miami), we could have finished the season at or above .500.

I don't think anyone predicted that we would be thatclose to 41 wins.

gyso

your excited that this team could have stole a few more games and got to 41 wins....boy thats gonna be a season worth remembering!!!

I want a team that every year wins 60 games on autopilot, thats what this franchise is about, because of Brads great coaching we got to where we are, this is a flawed team, all we have is the makings of a backcourt. 112288 thinks we need a whole new frontline to contend and he may be right.....

KO leads this team in blocked shots, nuff said, how flawed is the East? we would be real bottom dwellers in the West....now watch Miami or Indiana get a lottery pick.

cowens,

Did you read the post by kdp where he showed that none, NONE, of the #3 picks of the past 10 years have won a championship? Did you read my post where I pointed out that OKC hasn't won a championship and was LOADED with top picks? Washington has #1 pick John Wall, #3 pick Otto Porter and #3 pick Bradley Beal. Do you think they will win the championship this year?

If Sam Hinkie wins a championship in Philly I'll eat my words but until then I don't see why you place such high regard on the draft as the way to build a championship team.

The last team I can think of that did that was San Antonio, back in the '90s when they got Robinson and then Duncan, and that's a long damn time ago. Other than that...

I love that you want the Celtics to be winners, we all do. That's why we all spend time on this board (ok, maybe not TJ and Outside) but I'm not seeing where you've provided examples of where your way produces the kind of results you're clamoring for.

As far as needing length, and a shot blocker/intimidator, I agree. This is just year 2 of the rebuild. You can't get ALL the pieces you want at once unless you're LeBron who will attract players like flies to shit.

bob

.

by **cowens/oldschool** Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:38 pm

Outside wrote:How to beat Cleveland:

1. Rebound

2. Swarm on defense to cut down LeBron's iso drives to the hoop

3. Repeat

Irving may go off in a game or two, but there's not much you can do if he's hitting from deep and throwing everything in on his drives. It's the playoffs, and if Boston can win a game in Cleveland and get into their heads, LeBron is likely to revert to individual domination mode, making Irving less relevant. That's when Boston's swarming defense and rebounding can change LeBron's reliance on iso drives from a Cleveland weapon into an Achilles heel, just like the Spurs did in last year's finals. Run the motion offense relentlessly, expose Cleveland's weak bench, and force their starters to play 40+ minutes, which will wear on them mentally. Hope that J.R. Smith finds his inner knucklehead and jacks up 35-foot three-pointers and throws passes out of bounds. Show why having a very good coach is better than having a player hijack the coaching responsibilities.

Winning the series would obviously be great, but it's a long shot. Not getting swept and being competitive in each and every game isn't far-fetched in the least.

they are going to exploit our lack of inside defense over and over

by **cowens/oldschool** Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:41 pm

bobheckler wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:
gyso wrote:I am glad that the Celtics will be in the playoffs.

Just imagine, if we had won just a couple of those games in March that we "should" have won (Orlando, Detroit, Miami), we could have finished the season at or above .500.

I don't think anyone predicted that we would be thatclose to 41 wins.

gyso

your excited that this team could have stole a few more games and got to 41 wins....boy thats gonna be a season worth remembering!!!

I want a team that every year wins 60 games on autopilot, thats what this franchise is about, because of Brads great coaching we got to where we are, this is a flawed team, all we have is the makings of a backcourt. 112288 thinks we need a whole new frontline to contend and he may be right.....

KO leads this team in blocked shots, nuff said, how flawed is the East? we would be real bottom dwellers in the West....now watch Miami or Indiana get a lottery pick.

cowens,

Did you read the post by kdp where he showed that none, NONE, of the #3 picks of the past 10 years have won a championship? Did you read my post where I pointed out that OKC hasn't won a championship and was LOADED with top picks? Washington has #1 pick John Wall, #3 pick Otto Porter and #3 pick Bradley Beal. Do you think they will win the championship this year?

If Sam Hinkie wins a championship in Philly I'll eat my words but until then I don't see why you place such high regard on the draft as the way to build a championship team.

The last team I can think of that did that was San Antonio, back in the '90s when they got Robinson and then Duncan, and that's a long damn time ago. Other than that...

I love that you want the Celtics to be winners, we all do. That's why we all spend time on this board (ok, maybe not TJ and Outside) but I'm not seeing where you've provided examples of where your way produces the kind of results you're clamoring for.

As far as needing length, and a shot blocker/intimidator, I agree. This is just year 2 of the rebuild. You can't get ALL the pieces you want at once unless you're LeBron who will attract players like flies to shit.

bob

.

I'm not dissing free agency I'd be thrilled with Demarcus Cousins, but don't see that happening.

by **gyso** Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:48 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:
gyso wrote:I am glad that the Celtics will be in the playoffs.

Just imagine, if we had won just a couple of those games in March that we "should" have won (Orlando, Detroit, Miami), we could have finished the season at or above .500.

I don't think anyone predicted that we would be thatclose to 41 wins.

gyso

your excited that this team could have stole a few more games and got to 41 wins....boy thats gonna be a season worth remembering!!!

I want a team that every year wins 60 games on autopilot, thats what this franchise is about, because of Brads great coaching we got to where we are, this is a flawed team, all we have is the makings of a backcourt. 112288 thinks we need a whole new frontline to contend and he may be right.....

KO leads this team in blocked shots, nuff said, how flawed is the East? we would be real bottom dwellers in the West....now watch Miami or Indiana get a lottery pick.

What's the Frequency, Kenneth?

by **cowens/oldschool** Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:48 pm

kdp59 wrote:total championships won by the #3 pick in the draft:

J. Embiid- ZERO
O. Porter- ZERO ( 3 playoff games)
B. Beal- ZERO (11 playoff games)
E. Kanter- ZERO (4 playoff games)
D. Favors- ZERO (4 playoff games)
J. Harden- ZERO (55 playoff games)
OJ Mayo- ZERO ( 20 playoff games)
A. Horford- ZERO (48 playoff games)
A. Morrison- ZERO (2 playoff games)
D. Williams- ZERO (63 playoff games)

that's TEN years of #3 picks in the draft. ZERO championship rings.

the average games played by those 10 players was 57 and the average minutes this year was a whopping 1680.

I'll take the playoffs myself.

Kantor who is only 22, Favors and Horford are significant upgrades over our bigs, Beal is a young improving piece that with John Wall make up a young dynamic backcourt. James Harden is a budding superstar, we'll see next year what Embiid looks like, wonder how the 16th pick looks the last 10 years, without checking I'd favor #3 as having far greater impact than 16.

I understand everyone is rooting for the C's, I'm not as dumb as I look, but you need players, never saw a contending team without the players, whos our best player? Sam would probably say its IT, I think Kyrie Irving and JR Smith are salivating at being covered defensively by IT. Stevens is doing a great job and doing it with smoke and mirrors and in todays soft NBA it seems players are always being rested, we've played alot of teams with their best players off against us the last month. This team is in year 2 of a rebuild and in need of as many great players it can acquire as possible. Great players win championships, great players need other great players to play with, we have a bunch of back ups as starters in our frontcourt and the semblance of an up and coming backcourt. Luckily were in the East and this league is soft, thats why were where we are.

by **bobc33** Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:26 pm

What's the Frequency, Kenneth?[/quote]

Way cool GYSO! I wish I knew how to insert the official video here it is one of my all time favorites.

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