Jahlil Okafor, Myles Turner And The Futility Of The Process
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Jahlil Okafor, Myles Turner And The Futility Of The Process
Jahlil Okafor, Myles Turner And The Futility Of The Process
BY JONATHAN TJARKS
FEB 23, 2016 11:51 AM
If Myles Turner and Jahlil Okafor had declared for the draft out of high school, they both would have been taken in the Top 5. The top two overall recruits in the class of 2014, they had the size, the physicality and the skill-sets to play at the next level right away. The one-and-done rule meant they had to play at least one season in college, but everyone knew that was only going to be a brief stopover en route to long and productive careers in the NBA. All their NCAA coaches had to do was avoid screwing them up. The difference was that Okafor played for Mike Krzyzewski and Turner played for Rick Barnes.
Okafor teamed up with Justise Winslow and Tyus Jones, two guys whom he had befriended playing internationally for Team USA, to form one of the most formidable recruiting classes in recent memory. Coach K wasted no time turning his team over to his star freshmen, who instantly became Duke’s primary option (Okafor), their best two-way player (Winslow) and their best playmaker (Jones). Duke had just lost Jabari Parker and Rodney Hood, so there were plenty of shots, minutes and touches to go around for their best players.
It took awhile for such a young team to hit their stride, but Coach K eventually found the right combination when Amile Jefferson went down with an injury, moving Winslow to small-ball PF and playing 4-out around Okafor. Okafor was surrounded by 3-point shooters - Jones, Winslow, Quinn Cook and Matt Jones - which put opposing teams in the impossible dilemma of either having to cover him 1-on-1 in the post or leave someone open on the perimeter. Duke picked up steam as the year went on, eventually winning a national championship behind a dominant individual season from Okafor.
Things didn’t go as well for Turner, who decided to stay close to home and play at Texas. He was the biggest recruit that Barnes had reeled in since Kevin Durant and he was expected to turn around a program that had hit hard times. There was still plenty of talent in Austin, but it didn’t fit well together and it was unclear whether Barnes, who had been the Longhorns head coach for over 15 years, knew how to build a roster that would succeed in the modern game.
The biggest problem for Turner was the composition of the team around him. Texas was bringing back two other C’s who were getting looked at by NBA teams - Cameron Ridley and Prince Ibeh - as well as two PF’s with a chance to play at the next level - Jonathan Holmes and Connor Lammert. There was a logjam for minutes in the frontcourt which was resolved by moving Holmes to SF, a move somewhat reminiscent of the Detroit Pistons trying to play Josh Smith at SF. To make matter worse, the Longhorns had very little three-point shooting from their guard positions, which meant there was no space for their big men to do anything.
That was the difference between the seasons at Duke and at Texas in nutshell. Duke moved a SF to PF and opened up the floor for their star big men while Texas moved a PF to SF and clogged up the floor for theirs. And while Coach K had recruited an abundance of wings and perimeter shooters, Rick Barnes was still operating under the old model of stocking up on as many big men as you can and trying to overwhelm teams with size at every position. That’s why one guy is going to the Hall of Fame and the other guy lost his job at the end of the season.
What that meant from a draft perspective was that it was almost impossible to compare Turner and Okafor using their individual statistics.
Player A: 17.3 points, 8.5 rebounds, 1.3 assists (on 2.4 turnovers), 0.8 steals and 1.4 blocks a game on 66.4% shooting
Player B: 10.1 points, 6.5 rebounds, 0.6 assists (on 1.4 turnovers), 0.3 steals and 2.6 blocks a game on 45.5% shooting
You would obviously rather have Player A’s season than Player B’s, but those numbers were as much a reflection of the way they were used by their teams as they were their own individual abilities. The question teams should have been asking themselves is how Okafor would have fared at Texas and how Turner would have fared at Duke.
Once you look at things from that perspective, the comparison between the two players wasn’t as clear-cut. At 6’11 270 with a 7’4 wingspan, Okafor is a wondrously skilled big man who can score at a high level from the low post or the high post and pick apart a double team. However, since he’s not a jump-shooter, he would have had a lot of trouble scoring in the clogged paint at Texas. At 6’11 240 with a 7’5 wingspan, Turner is almost as big and he has a pretty good back to the basket game in his own right. He would have put up much better numbers playing in space and playing with fewer big men at Duke while his ability to play the pick-and-pop would have allowed them to play a 5-out offense that would have made life miserable on opposing defenses.
The biggest difference between the two comes on the defensive end of the floor. Okafor wasn’t asked to do much of the heavy lifting at Duke with guys like Winslow, Jones and Cook in front of him and his inability to protect the rim and slide his feet on the perimeter weren’t exposed too much. Turner was forced into a weird hybrid role at Texas where he had to guard 25+ feet from the basket in order to create playing time for Ridley and Ibeh. When he was the primary rim protector, he had to constantly clean up penetration because Holmes and Lammert had difficulty keeping smaller offensive players in front of them.
Okafor was put in a position to succeed at the NCAA level and Turner wasn’t, which is why Okafor was in the conversation for the No. 1 pick while Turner was fighting just to stay in the lottery. When you look at things from a tools perspective, the difference became even smaller. Okafor was the better scorer and passer while Turner was the better shooter and shot-blocker. If you were picking a big man for the modern NBA, which skill-set would you prefer? Most big men played like Okafor in 1995. Most big men will play like Turner in 2025.
That has become obvious as their rookie seasons have come along. Turner has been one of the most pleasant surprises in this year’s draft and has won a starting spot on an Indiana Pacers team competing for home-court advantage in the first round. Okafor has put up big numbers on a miserable Philadelphia 76ers team that is still trying to figure out what their identity is and what type of core they want to build around. If you take a deeper dive into the numbers, you can see that Okafor is making a bad situation worse.
If you switched situations, Turner would be putting up big numbers playing 35+ minutes a game in Philadelphia while his outside shooting would present an interesting complement to Nerlens Noel ability to roll to the rim. Okafor would have a really hard time fitting in on a Pacers team trying to win - he’d get roasted on defense and he’d clog up driving lanes for Paul George and Monta Ellis, neither of whom want to spend most of the game spotting up at the 3-point line and waiting for Okafor to kick the ball out to them. If the 76ers pitched that trade to the Pacers, it would be a pretty short phone call.
Nine months after the draft, does it really matter whether Okafor went at No. 3 and Turner went at No. 11? The 76ers spent all season tanking in order to get a high draft pick while the Pacers made a doomed effort to fight for the No. 8 seed. And yet somehow the Pacers were the ones who ended up with the better prospect! This is not the first time this has happened for Indiana and Philadelphia either, as the Pacers drafted Paul George at No. 9 the same year that the 76ers drafted Evan Turner at No. 2.
That’s the difference between those two franchises. Philadelphia is trying to maximize their draft position in order to increase their odds of finding a superstar. Indiana is letting the chips fall where they may and taking the best player that’s available to them. The numbers would say that you aren’t likely to find a great player in the back half of the lottery, yet the Pacers unearthed Paul George and Myles Turner in that range. Those are two guys who could be the best two players on a championship contender and Indiana didn’t have to do anything too crazy to acquire them. They just had to scout well.
All the think pieces and all the debate and all the noise surrounding The Process have really missed the whole point. The Oklahoma City model only works if you can draft as well as Oklahoma City. The 76ers were willing to buck the conventional wisdom when it comes to how to build a team but not the wisdom about who should be drafted where. And if Myles Turner is a better prospect than Jahlil Okafor, what exactly was the point of everything that has happened in Philadelphia in the last three years?
bob
.
BY JONATHAN TJARKS
FEB 23, 2016 11:51 AM
If Myles Turner and Jahlil Okafor had declared for the draft out of high school, they both would have been taken in the Top 5. The top two overall recruits in the class of 2014, they had the size, the physicality and the skill-sets to play at the next level right away. The one-and-done rule meant they had to play at least one season in college, but everyone knew that was only going to be a brief stopover en route to long and productive careers in the NBA. All their NCAA coaches had to do was avoid screwing them up. The difference was that Okafor played for Mike Krzyzewski and Turner played for Rick Barnes.
Okafor teamed up with Justise Winslow and Tyus Jones, two guys whom he had befriended playing internationally for Team USA, to form one of the most formidable recruiting classes in recent memory. Coach K wasted no time turning his team over to his star freshmen, who instantly became Duke’s primary option (Okafor), their best two-way player (Winslow) and their best playmaker (Jones). Duke had just lost Jabari Parker and Rodney Hood, so there were plenty of shots, minutes and touches to go around for their best players.
It took awhile for such a young team to hit their stride, but Coach K eventually found the right combination when Amile Jefferson went down with an injury, moving Winslow to small-ball PF and playing 4-out around Okafor. Okafor was surrounded by 3-point shooters - Jones, Winslow, Quinn Cook and Matt Jones - which put opposing teams in the impossible dilemma of either having to cover him 1-on-1 in the post or leave someone open on the perimeter. Duke picked up steam as the year went on, eventually winning a national championship behind a dominant individual season from Okafor.
Things didn’t go as well for Turner, who decided to stay close to home and play at Texas. He was the biggest recruit that Barnes had reeled in since Kevin Durant and he was expected to turn around a program that had hit hard times. There was still plenty of talent in Austin, but it didn’t fit well together and it was unclear whether Barnes, who had been the Longhorns head coach for over 15 years, knew how to build a roster that would succeed in the modern game.
The biggest problem for Turner was the composition of the team around him. Texas was bringing back two other C’s who were getting looked at by NBA teams - Cameron Ridley and Prince Ibeh - as well as two PF’s with a chance to play at the next level - Jonathan Holmes and Connor Lammert. There was a logjam for minutes in the frontcourt which was resolved by moving Holmes to SF, a move somewhat reminiscent of the Detroit Pistons trying to play Josh Smith at SF. To make matter worse, the Longhorns had very little three-point shooting from their guard positions, which meant there was no space for their big men to do anything.
That was the difference between the seasons at Duke and at Texas in nutshell. Duke moved a SF to PF and opened up the floor for their star big men while Texas moved a PF to SF and clogged up the floor for theirs. And while Coach K had recruited an abundance of wings and perimeter shooters, Rick Barnes was still operating under the old model of stocking up on as many big men as you can and trying to overwhelm teams with size at every position. That’s why one guy is going to the Hall of Fame and the other guy lost his job at the end of the season.
What that meant from a draft perspective was that it was almost impossible to compare Turner and Okafor using their individual statistics.
Player A: 17.3 points, 8.5 rebounds, 1.3 assists (on 2.4 turnovers), 0.8 steals and 1.4 blocks a game on 66.4% shooting
Player B: 10.1 points, 6.5 rebounds, 0.6 assists (on 1.4 turnovers), 0.3 steals and 2.6 blocks a game on 45.5% shooting
You would obviously rather have Player A’s season than Player B’s, but those numbers were as much a reflection of the way they were used by their teams as they were their own individual abilities. The question teams should have been asking themselves is how Okafor would have fared at Texas and how Turner would have fared at Duke.
Once you look at things from that perspective, the comparison between the two players wasn’t as clear-cut. At 6’11 270 with a 7’4 wingspan, Okafor is a wondrously skilled big man who can score at a high level from the low post or the high post and pick apart a double team. However, since he’s not a jump-shooter, he would have had a lot of trouble scoring in the clogged paint at Texas. At 6’11 240 with a 7’5 wingspan, Turner is almost as big and he has a pretty good back to the basket game in his own right. He would have put up much better numbers playing in space and playing with fewer big men at Duke while his ability to play the pick-and-pop would have allowed them to play a 5-out offense that would have made life miserable on opposing defenses.
The biggest difference between the two comes on the defensive end of the floor. Okafor wasn’t asked to do much of the heavy lifting at Duke with guys like Winslow, Jones and Cook in front of him and his inability to protect the rim and slide his feet on the perimeter weren’t exposed too much. Turner was forced into a weird hybrid role at Texas where he had to guard 25+ feet from the basket in order to create playing time for Ridley and Ibeh. When he was the primary rim protector, he had to constantly clean up penetration because Holmes and Lammert had difficulty keeping smaller offensive players in front of them.
Okafor was put in a position to succeed at the NCAA level and Turner wasn’t, which is why Okafor was in the conversation for the No. 1 pick while Turner was fighting just to stay in the lottery. When you look at things from a tools perspective, the difference became even smaller. Okafor was the better scorer and passer while Turner was the better shooter and shot-blocker. If you were picking a big man for the modern NBA, which skill-set would you prefer? Most big men played like Okafor in 1995. Most big men will play like Turner in 2025.
That has become obvious as their rookie seasons have come along. Turner has been one of the most pleasant surprises in this year’s draft and has won a starting spot on an Indiana Pacers team competing for home-court advantage in the first round. Okafor has put up big numbers on a miserable Philadelphia 76ers team that is still trying to figure out what their identity is and what type of core they want to build around. If you take a deeper dive into the numbers, you can see that Okafor is making a bad situation worse.
If you switched situations, Turner would be putting up big numbers playing 35+ minutes a game in Philadelphia while his outside shooting would present an interesting complement to Nerlens Noel ability to roll to the rim. Okafor would have a really hard time fitting in on a Pacers team trying to win - he’d get roasted on defense and he’d clog up driving lanes for Paul George and Monta Ellis, neither of whom want to spend most of the game spotting up at the 3-point line and waiting for Okafor to kick the ball out to them. If the 76ers pitched that trade to the Pacers, it would be a pretty short phone call.
Nine months after the draft, does it really matter whether Okafor went at No. 3 and Turner went at No. 11? The 76ers spent all season tanking in order to get a high draft pick while the Pacers made a doomed effort to fight for the No. 8 seed. And yet somehow the Pacers were the ones who ended up with the better prospect! This is not the first time this has happened for Indiana and Philadelphia either, as the Pacers drafted Paul George at No. 9 the same year that the 76ers drafted Evan Turner at No. 2.
That’s the difference between those two franchises. Philadelphia is trying to maximize their draft position in order to increase their odds of finding a superstar. Indiana is letting the chips fall where they may and taking the best player that’s available to them. The numbers would say that you aren’t likely to find a great player in the back half of the lottery, yet the Pacers unearthed Paul George and Myles Turner in that range. Those are two guys who could be the best two players on a championship contender and Indiana didn’t have to do anything too crazy to acquire them. They just had to scout well.
All the think pieces and all the debate and all the noise surrounding The Process have really missed the whole point. The Oklahoma City model only works if you can draft as well as Oklahoma City. The 76ers were willing to buck the conventional wisdom when it comes to how to build a team but not the wisdom about who should be drafted where. And if Myles Turner is a better prospect than Jahlil Okafor, what exactly was the point of everything that has happened in Philadelphia in the last three years?
bob
.
bobheckler- Posts : 61563
Join date : 2009-10-28
Re: Jahlil Okafor, Myles Turner And The Futility Of The Process
The danger of having a top 3 pick is that the fans will flip out on you if you draft somebody not listed on the ESPN Draftguide for Dummies as being a top 3 pick.
Just look at Porzingis. NYK fans flipped out, but it would have been even worse reaction had PHI drafted him, much less Myles Turner.
I was comparing Turner to Patrick Ewing before the draft, and saying he had as much potential as Anthony Davis. Davis still gets pushed around like a ragdoll on defense.
And think about the Celtics situation. Even if Ainge had been able to trade 4 first rounders for the #9 pick, he still would have whiffed on Myles Turner, and chosen the Crowder clone Winslow instead.
So it's great that we might have a top 5 pick this year, but watch, by draft time casual draft fans will be 100% certain that Ainge MUST pick one of maybe 3 guys with the pick, without really doing their homework on guys ranked just a little lower.
And the same journalists writing these hindsight posts about how Ainge missed out on Turner, they're the same guys who would have been writing about how Danny got an F in the draft if Danny had traded up to 9 and taken Turner of the much more familiar name of Justise Winslow.
Just look at Porzingis. NYK fans flipped out, but it would have been even worse reaction had PHI drafted him, much less Myles Turner.
I was comparing Turner to Patrick Ewing before the draft, and saying he had as much potential as Anthony Davis. Davis still gets pushed around like a ragdoll on defense.
And think about the Celtics situation. Even if Ainge had been able to trade 4 first rounders for the #9 pick, he still would have whiffed on Myles Turner, and chosen the Crowder clone Winslow instead.
So it's great that we might have a top 5 pick this year, but watch, by draft time casual draft fans will be 100% certain that Ainge MUST pick one of maybe 3 guys with the pick, without really doing their homework on guys ranked just a little lower.
And the same journalists writing these hindsight posts about how Ainge missed out on Turner, they're the same guys who would have been writing about how Danny got an F in the draft if Danny had traded up to 9 and taken Turner of the much more familiar name of Justise Winslow.
arambone- Posts : 721
Join date : 2014-05-28
Re: Jahlil Okafor, Myles Turner And The Futility Of The Process
I still use the old adage that you don't know what you have in a draft pick for three years.
will Turner or Winslow be the better NBA player?....we won't know for a bit yet, but I think they will both be solid NBA starters for most of their careers. Time will tell.
we can all get it wrong, both as fans and as NBA execs.
Last year I wanted Danny to pick Portis at #16 (maybe right, too early to know) and get Dakari Johnson with the first pick in the second round (he hasn't made it out of the D-league, so looks like a WRONG one).
Many liked a guy named Upshaw and even wanted Danny to use a first on him. I think he's playing about as much as Dakari in the D-league.
Like Bob (I think) likes to say about the draft, it's a crapshoot....Crap being the key word most times.
will Turner or Winslow be the better NBA player?....we won't know for a bit yet, but I think they will both be solid NBA starters for most of their careers. Time will tell.
we can all get it wrong, both as fans and as NBA execs.
Last year I wanted Danny to pick Portis at #16 (maybe right, too early to know) and get Dakari Johnson with the first pick in the second round (he hasn't made it out of the D-league, so looks like a WRONG one).
Many liked a guy named Upshaw and even wanted Danny to use a first on him. I think he's playing about as much as Dakari in the D-league.
Like Bob (I think) likes to say about the draft, it's a crapshoot....Crap being the key word most times.
kdp59- Posts : 5709
Join date : 2014-01-05
Age : 64
Re: Jahlil Okafor, Myles Turner And The Futility Of The Process
2013 draft class, +/- leaders per game this season:
1)Steven Adams
2)Andre Roberson
3)Dennis Schroeder
4)Kelly Olynyk
5)CJ McCollum
6)Rudy Gobert
29) Giannis Freak
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/?ls=iref:nba:gnav#!/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DraftYear=2013&sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1
Olynyk is walking the walk. It's no wonder his fellow rookie draft classmates voted him most likely to have the best career.
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/?ls=iref:nba:gnav#!/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DraftYear=2013&sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1
2014 draft class/second year player +/- per game, this year:
1) Marcus Smart
2) Kyle Anderson (drafted like 30th)
4) RHood
5) Capela
6) Vonleh
7) McDermott
Napier
9) Aaron Gordon
10) GRobinson III
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/?ls=iref:nba:gnav#!/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1&CF=GP*GE*25&DraftYear=2014
Danny has drafted guys who might not have the flashiest stats, but they're the most effective players, and contribute the most to winning in their draft classes.
1)Steven Adams
2)Andre Roberson
3)Dennis Schroeder
4)Kelly Olynyk
5)CJ McCollum
6)Rudy Gobert
29) Giannis Freak
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/?ls=iref:nba:gnav#!/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DraftYear=2013&sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1
Olynyk is walking the walk. It's no wonder his fellow rookie draft classmates voted him most likely to have the best career.
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/?ls=iref:nba:gnav#!/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DraftYear=2013&sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1
2014 draft class/second year player +/- per game, this year:
1) Marcus Smart
2) Kyle Anderson (drafted like 30th)
4) RHood
5) Capela
6) Vonleh
7) McDermott
Napier
9) Aaron Gordon
10) GRobinson III
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/?ls=iref:nba:gnav#!/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1&CF=GP*GE*25&DraftYear=2014
Danny has drafted guys who might not have the flashiest stats, but they're the most effective players, and contribute the most to winning in their draft classes.
arambone- Posts : 721
Join date : 2014-05-28
Re: Jahlil Okafor, Myles Turner And The Futility Of The Process
Here's the 2012 draft class +/- leaderboard per game for this season:
1 Draymond Green
2 Harrison Barnes
3 Festus Ezeli
4 TRoss
5 Waiters
6 Jae Crowder
7 MScott
8 Lillard
9 JLamb
10 JSullinger
11 Drummond
12 MLeonard
17 TZeller
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/?ls=iref:nba:gnav#!/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1&CF=GP*GE*25&DraftYear=2012
1 Draymond Green
2 Harrison Barnes
3 Festus Ezeli
4 TRoss
5 Waiters
6 Jae Crowder
7 MScott
8 Lillard
9 JLamb
10 JSullinger
11 Drummond
12 MLeonard
17 TZeller
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/?ls=iref:nba:gnav#!/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1&CF=GP*GE*25&DraftYear=2012
arambone- Posts : 721
Join date : 2014-05-28
Re: Jahlil Okafor, Myles Turner And The Futility Of The Process
2011 Draft class, +/- leaders per game this season
1 Klay Thompson
2 Kawhi Leonard
3 Kyrie Irving
4 TThompson
5 Corey Joseph
6 Isaiah Thomas
7 Lavoy Allen
8 IShumpert
9 JValanciunas
10 Marcus Morris
11 Reggie Jackson
12 Mirotic
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/?ls=iref:nba:gnav#!/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1&CF=GP*GE*25&DraftYear=2011
1 Klay Thompson
2 Kawhi Leonard
3 Kyrie Irving
4 TThompson
5 Corey Joseph
6 Isaiah Thomas
7 Lavoy Allen
8 IShumpert
9 JValanciunas
10 Marcus Morris
11 Reggie Jackson
12 Mirotic
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/?ls=iref:nba:gnav#!/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1&CF=GP*GE*25&DraftYear=2011
arambone- Posts : 721
Join date : 2014-05-28
Re: Jahlil Okafor, Myles Turner And The Futility Of The Process
2010 draft class, +/- per game leaders this season
1 Patrick Patterson
2 Paul George
3 Avery Bradley
4 Wes Johnson
5 AAminu
6 Cousins
7 Evan Turner
8 Favors
9 Gordon Hayward
10 John Wall
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/?ls=iref:nba:gnav#!/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1&CF=GP*GE*25&DraftYear=2010
1 Patrick Patterson
2 Paul George
3 Avery Bradley
4 Wes Johnson
5 AAminu
6 Cousins
7 Evan Turner
8 Favors
9 Gordon Hayward
10 John Wall
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/?ls=iref:nba:gnav#!/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1&CF=GP*GE*25&DraftYear=2010
arambone- Posts : 721
Join date : 2014-05-28
Re: Jahlil Okafor, Myles Turner And The Futility Of The Process
2009 draft class, +/- leaders per game this season
1 Steph Curry
2 Patty Mills
3 Danny Green
4 Blake Griffin
5 DeRozan
6 Jordan Hill
7 Jrue Holliday
8 James Johnson
9 Jonas Jerebko
10 Ricky Rubio
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/?ls=iref:nba:gnav#!/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1&CF=GP*GE*25&DraftYear=2009
1 Steph Curry
2 Patty Mills
3 Danny Green
4 Blake Griffin
5 DeRozan
6 Jordan Hill
7 Jrue Holliday
8 James Johnson
9 Jonas Jerebko
10 Ricky Rubio
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/?ls=iref:nba:gnav#!/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1&CF=GP*GE*25&DraftYear=2009
arambone- Posts : 721
Join date : 2014-05-28
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