Let me throw this one to wall and see if it sticks~!

worcester wrote:Risk reward. Rewards were much greater with Ray for the risk. He was an All-Star's all star who provided the promise of wrenching KG away from Minny. Galli doesn't offer that much reward for the risk.

True. I guess I am still flabbergasted that dboss couldn't comprehend how a team that upgraded 3 roster spots besides Gallo and returned 5 other guys between 22-27 from a 48 win team would be worse and would not compete.

I'd much rather have the risk/reward of Gallo than a proven useful but limited 9th-11th man in Jerebko. 

He would take up coveted cap space however and it is unlikely Danny wastes that commodity even if he'll prob find out this summer that he cannot use it on the guys he wants. 

I would prefer Harrison Barnes to Gallo, but there is no guarantee he signs an offer sheet with us over 20 other teams in position to give him one and then no guarantee if he does that Golden State does not match.

Ram wrote:

dboss wrote:Ram

Gallo should not be mentioned.  Please tell me how a guy that has missed more games than he's played over an 8 year period is an upgrade over anybody? The only upgrade he represents is an upgrade to the IR list.
 
Dboss

It is true that Gallinari has had lots of injury issues over his career. If that scares you enough to not want to drop down 4 places in the draft to swap him out for Jerebko then so be it. I can't argue with someone who is simply convinced a player will not be on the court and therefore cannot help the team. He is currently healthy and planning to play for the Italian National team this summer. 

Gallinari is a professional scorer. He might hit 3's at the same % as Jerebko and average less rebounds per 36 minutes, but he also blows him away when it comes to PER and pretty much all other statistical categories and is an opponents 1st or 2nd option to stop when he is on the court, not 4th or 5th. There is simply no factually way to argue he is an inferior player when healthy.

Ram

First of all those strawman arguments don't fly here. I never mentioned jerebko. As a matter of fact if you have every read any of my posts it would be clear to you that I do not even like him.

However to plug Gallinari in for him in the starting lineup is really bizarre considering that Jerebko is not a starter on this team. He is a rotation player...sometimes. Gallo will make something like $15 mill next year and has a player option the next year for around $16m. I am not spending that type of money on a player that has a well documented history of injuries. That's called common sense. The other thing I will mention is that Gallo does not rebound the basketball like a PF and he is not a good defender. You like him that's fine but you cannot make a reasonable argument why the Celtics should spend that type of money on a health risk with limited overall skills. And you cannot make an argument that he is an upgrade over Jonas because Jonas is not a starter.

Now I will answer your second post

dboss

Ram wrote:dboss,

You conveniently avoided the fact that the roster I put together is still far superior to the one that was on the court at the end of this season. Gallo could get hurt and the team could give minutes to Mickey and up the minutes of Olynyk, Gibson and Biyombo and STILL be better than last year's club. 

tj mentioned Chicago is unlikely to move Butler if the pick were #7 instead of #3. That is possible, although I think if Brown or Hield were there (Butler replacements) or Bender or Poeltl as the future starter at the 4/5 to help with the Gasol/Noah losses they would still highly consider it. 

But fine, don't trade down with Denver, use pick #3 to acquire Butler, keep Jerebko on his one year deal and have him and Mickey as the 10th and 11th men who Stevens uses equally depending on whether the team needs offense or defense.

Butler and Biyombo are still upgrades to Bradley and Johnson. The reliable and athletic/in shape Gibson is still better than Sully and the rest of the roster full of 22-27 year old's should still be expected to improve.

Ram

I did not avoid anything.  I looked at the collective roster including the bench and determined that it SUCKS.  

Biyombo is not better than Amir....Biyombo cannot score the basketball.  Biyombo is a good defender but so is Amir.  If you want to upgrage the center position which is something that needs to be done, the Biyombo's of the world are NOT going to make that happen.  He's no upgrade just a younger version with horrible offense.  You like his offense?  Do you think we can develop him into a guy that can shoot beyond 3 feet?  Ha ha

Gallo - not an upgrade just a broke down MF'er that cannot rebound or defend and makes too much loot

The only upgrade there is Butler over AB but only because Butler has more size.  But for the money I'll stay with AB because he cost 1/2 the price, is rated a better defender and is a better long distance shooter  and most importantly you never hear about Bradley not being able to play with this one or that one.  Butler has some drama.  Not much of an upgrade here.

That is it for the Starters

You like Gibson over who?  Who is the BU PF on this team.  Gibson is on the downside of a career where he is pretty much a rotation player.  He cannot shoot from the outside.  He makes around $9 million per in this his last year so you wanna rent him for a year and then what???
Do you think we can find a kid in the draft that can do more than what Gibson is doing?  I think so.  We do not need anymore short term solutions.  

And you got Turner, Smart and Hunter and of course the manbun.  That 2nd units sucks the sweat off of a dead man's balls.  Not one reliable shooter for distance other than the manbun who is also up and down like a yoyo.  Turner is so bad shooting the long ball that he is trying to promote the resurgence of the short game.  Smart is a horrible shooter and always will be. He does not have that skill.  Hunter will be a 2nd year rookie but he did not show enough last year to assume he is ready to be the BU SG.

dboss

dboss wrote:

Ram wrote:dboss,

You conveniently avoided the fact that the roster I put together is still far superior to the one that was on the court at the end of this season. Gallo could get hurt and the team could give minutes to Mickey and up the minutes of Olynyk, Gibson and Biyombo and STILL be better than last year's club. 

tj mentioned Chicago is unlikely to move Butler if the pick were #7 instead of #3. That is possible, although I think if Brown or Hield were there (Butler replacements) or Bender or Poeltl as the future starter at the 4/5 to help with the Gasol/Noah losses they would still highly consider it. 

But fine, don't trade down with Denver, use pick #3 to acquire Butler, keep Jerebko on his one year deal and have him and Mickey as the 10th and 11th men who Stevens uses equally depending on whether the team needs offense or defense.

Butler and Biyombo are still upgrades to Bradley and Johnson. The reliable and athletic/in shape Gibson is still better than Sully and the rest of the roster full of 22-27 year old's should still be expected to improve.

Ram

I did not avoid anything.  I looked at the collective roster including the bench and determined that it SUCKS.  

Biyombo is not better than Amir....Biyombo cannot score the basketball.  Biyombo is a good defender but so is Amir.  If you want to upgrage the center position which is something that needs to be done, the Biyombo's of the world are NOT going to make that happen.  He's no upgrade just a younger version with horrible offense.  You like his offense?  Do you think we can develop him into a guy that can shoot beyond 3 feet?  Ha ha

Gallo - not an upgrade just a broke down MF'er that cannot rebound or defend and makes too much loot

The only upgrade there is Butler over AB but only because Butler has more size.  But for the money I'll stay with AB because he cost 1/2 the price, is rated a better defender and is a better long distance shooter  and most importantly you never hear about Bradley not being able to play with this one or that one.  Butler has some drama.  Not much of an upgrade here.

That is it for the Starters

You like Gibson over who?  Who is the BU PF on this team.  Gibson is on the downside of a career where he is pretty much a rotation player.  He cannot shoot from the outside.  He makes around $9 million per in this his last year so you wanna rent him for a year and then what???
Do you think we can find a kid in the draft that can do more than what Gibson is doing?  I think so.  We do not need anymore short term solutions.  

And you got Turner, Smart and Hunter and of course the manbun.  That 2nd units sucks the sweat off of a dead man's balls.  Not one reliable shooter for distance other than the manbun who is also up and down like a yoyo.  Turner is so bad shooting the long ball that he is trying to promote the resurgence of the short game.  Smart is a horrible shooter and always will be. He does not have that skill.  Hunter will be a 2nd year rookie but he did not show enough last year to assume he is ready to be the BU SG.

dboss

I had no idea dead men sweat. So much for my future career path as a forensic pathologist.


bob


.

That second unit must sure be thirsty.

dboss wrote:
Ram

First of all those strawman arguments don't fly here.  I never mentioned jerebko.  As a matter of fact if you have every read any of my posts it would be clear to you that I do not even like him.    

However to plug Gallinari in for him in the starting lineup is really bizarre considering that Jerebko is not a starter on this team.  He is a rotation player...sometimes.  Gallo will make something like $15 mill next year and has a player option the next year for around $16m.  I am not spending that type of money on a player that has a well documented history of injuries.  That's called common sense.  The other thing  I will mention is that Gallo does not rebound the basketball like a PF and he is not a good defender.  You like him that's fine but you cannot make a reasonable argument why the Celtics should spend that type of money on a health risk with limited overall skills.  And you cannot make an argument that he is an upgrade over Jonas because Jonas is not a starter.

Now I will answer your second post

dboss

Really? The fact that I plugged him into the starting lineup is a major issue for you? 

He's the starting PF b/c BIYOMBO is the starting center in that rotation, a man who averaged 17.7, 16.9 and 18.7 rebounds per 36 minutes the last 3 seasons. Olynyk averaged 8.1 rebounds per 36 the last 3 seasons, Sully 11.1, Zeller 9.4, Amir Johnson 8.9, Jerebko 8.5 and Brandon Bass 7.5. 
So if the Celtics were consistently pairing Jerebko, Bass or Olynyk with Sully, Zeller and Johnson in the frontcourt the team was pulling in roughly the same # of rebounds per 36 minutes that Biyombo pulls down BY HIMSELF. 

I think having one of the best rebounding big men in the game and one of the more rugged SF's in the game in Crowder (who pulls down 6 rebs per 36) and SG's in the game in Butler (5.2 rebs per 36 mins) can mask the fact that Gallinari pulls down 5.6 rebs per 36 mins, SG-SF numbers. 

Also, Jerebko replaced Sully in the starting lineup in the playoffs. The league is built on speed and shooting and spacing the floor around one rim-protector type and that lineup fits that model to a T. I mentioned in almost every single post that Gallo is replacing Jerebko's role but it is Taj Gibson who is replacing Sully. The fact that Gallo is starting is semantics. He will get all Jonas's mins and some of Turner, Crowder and Sully's while Gibson, an 8.8 reb per 36 guy, would get 75% of Sully's mins. 

I have merely presented an option that is unlikely to happen, it would rely on Ainge not thinking he has a shot at Durant this offseason. Gallo simply replaces Amir in the salary structure and if things go well he opts out, if they go badly and he opts in the Celtics will have an expiring contract and 29 year old who can shoot/score (when healthy) to trade in a league flush with money.  

The only issues are health and cap space and b/c of them I much prefer going after Harrison Barnes. But to try and say that team would not compete and be worse than this current roster is preposterous. They would still be better than this years team if Gallo went down for the season in game 1. I don't think you realize how much Butler, Biyombo and Gibson would upgrade this club or how much better Smart and Olynyk should be.

I guess we can agree to disagree on that lineup.

Who f'n cares is Butler makes more cash than Bradley? Anyone who follows the game knows he is a HUGE upgrade, an all-star, a 20ppg guy AND an all-NBA 1st teamer just like AB.

You knock Gibson b/c he is 30, younger than KG when he came here, and making a super reasonable 9m for 1 year? What would you rather have Sully for 4 years at 12 million per year? Gibson was a 9 pt, 6-7 board guy the past 2 years who has a huge wingspan and CAN shoot from mid-range (like Bass), 50% overall shooter, and is a much more reliable and intimidating player than Sully. What do we do after he leaves? Ummm... tons of FA cash and draft picks?

Also nobody cares if Biyombo cannot shoot from more than 3 feet when he gets 18 boards per 36 minutes, blocks shots and challenges guys like LeBron at the rim. He is not the perimeter help defender Johnson is, but he does all the interior stuff WAY better and will anybody miss Amir's 7ppg when Biyombo puts up 5? Yeesh. 

The 'manbun' is an elite shooter for his size when healthy and others here have already owned you on how his advanced stats prove his very real value. Smart showed in the playoffs he is developing as a shooter. I guess 21 years old's can't get better (wow) and Hunter will only be asked to play 6-8 minutes a game and if he can't do as he was advertised (shoot 40% from 3) then Turner will get his minutes and a 10th man is not needed in that rotation. 

Smart-Turner-Gibson and Olynyk is a fine bench unit. If you want to say that is a horrible trade option b/c Gallo will remain injured fine, but to say the overall lineup won't be better than this year is preposterous.

worcester wrote:That second unit must sure be thirsty.

lmao...

Ram

You know I have really tried to be consistent with my thoughts about this team.

We need a rim protector and we need shooters that can knock down the long ball.  I have mentioned the same things over and over again.

Every Celtics fan knows we need a real rim protector and rebounder.  BIYOMBO is a very good player but he is far from being what we need.  You ready to sign him as a free agent for big money even though he will never be a great center?  Even if a center is primarily a defensive center you would still expect them to be able to score 10 PPG.

The Celtics do not need to waste any time with small incremental upgrades or lateral changes.

Mentioning Gibson and KG in the same sentence is another abomination.  Gibson cannot shoot from the perimeter at ALL. don't ya get it?  

Smart shot .367% in 6 playoffs game.  I would not exactly characterize that as a developing shooter.  It appears to be more of a case of a player with a developmental problem shooting the basketball.

"Smart-Turner-Gibson and Olynyk is a fine bench unit"  That can not shoot straight and I see you took Hunter out of that second unit.  

My hope is to see the Celtics add great 3 point shooters and a big man that can defend, rebound, score and run the court.  Fringe players will not make this team better and we have way too many assets not to get the best of the best.

Adding players that are already on their downward slide is not a formula for long term success.  Too much money, too many injuries and little to no upside means no future.

dboss

Dboss, it's too bad Olynyk wasn't a more consistent 3 point shooter than 40%.

Simply unacceptable, right?

At 7 foot tall, he should be closer to the hoop. Anything less than 70% from 3 is garbage.

A shot blocker of a back up center would be so much more valuable, and would get Olynyk off the floor.

Ahh, yes, getting that inconsistent non-shot blocker out of the lineup would do wonders for our 3 point shooting.

Who cares if the team plays at its best with Olynyk on the court, 40% from 3 is too up and down.

But that RJ Hunter, don't forget to include him in our rotation.

The one staple of consistency on our otherwise lousy* bench.

Celtics had the 8th best bench this past year:

http://stats.nba.com/league/team/?ls=iref:nba:gnav#!/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1&StarterBench=Bench

arambone wrote:Dboss, it's too bad Olynyk wasn't a more consistent 3 point shooter than 40%.

Simply unacceptable, right?

Bone

KO is one guy on the team that can make shots

dboss

OK, I am officially sorry I started this thread....LOL.

while I am not a fan of Gallinari, I will note that Danny was supposedly looking at him at the trade deadline. He must have seen something that I for one don't.

So there.



bob


.

arambone wrote:Celtics had the 8th best bench this past year:

http://stats.nba.com/league/team/?ls=iref:nba:gnav#!/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1&StarterBench=Bench

8th best is very good but to make it better we need to add a couple of shooters and a multi-skilled center.

Most glaring negative stat is the 3 point shooting percentage.  That can be fixed this year through the draft.

Dboss

kdp59 wrote:OK, I am officially sorry I started this thread....LOL.

while I am not a fan of Gallinari, I will note that Danny was supposedly looking at him at the trade deadline. He must have seen something that I for one don't.

Personally I don't like any trade scenario that involves high cost with a likely decline in play within two years.

There are plenty of good players in this draft, and they won't be washed up in 2-3 years, and they'll cost a fraction of the price.

Bob, Toshiro Mifune's role in Kurosawa's Red Beard is one of my favorites in all film.

OK, time to cool down a bit here.

Everyone has an opinion and the right to make a point without being attacked. A couple of offensive posts have therefore been removed.

Locking this topic; time to move on.