One Jimmy Butler trade proposal reportedly included Jae Crowder and two first-round picks

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2016/06/boston_celtics_trade_rumors_20_209.html




Boston Celtics trade rumors 2016: One Jimmy Butler trade proposal reportedly included Jae Crowder and two first-round picks


Chicago Bulls guard Jimmy Butler looks on against the Philadelphia 76ers during the second half of an NBA basketball game, Wednesday, April 13, 2016 in Chicago. (AP Photo/Kamil Krzaczynski)



Jay King | mjking@masslive.com By Jay King | mjking@masslive.com


on June 26, 2016 at 5:15 PM






One Jimmy Butler trade proposal the Boston Celtics and Chicago Bulls discussed before the NBA Draft included Jae Crowder and two first-round draft picks, according to the Chicago Tribune's K.C. Johnson.

Johnson reported this weekend that one set of chats involved Crowder, the No. 3 pick and the No. 16 pick in last week's draft for a package highlighted by Butler. It's not clear which team turned that down -- or if it was ever a concrete offer, since Johnson wrote the Celtics "kept changing terms" of the deal and the two sides could not agree on a trade.

Meshing with that claim, the Boston Herald's Steve Bulpett reported that Boston was "looking for a clear kill, rather than simply a deal that would be good for both sides." If the Bulls said no to Crowder and those two picks, though -- and, again, it's not clear which side turned that down -- the Celtics couldn't have offered much more in a reasonable trade. Crowder, another good player and the No. 3 pick might have been too much, and next year's Nets pick is one of the NBA's best assets right now.


"We've been working really hard on trying to get a deal and do something significant," said Celtics president of basketball operations Danny Ainge. "But we just haven't been able to do it yet. And it's not because we're not trying, it's not because we're turning down or we overvalue our players or any of that stuff. It's because you need a partner. I've said this many times before: I tried three years to get KG (Kevin Garnett) before we got him. It just takes the right time and the right place and have a partner that wants to do a deal."



bob
MY NOTE:  What do you think of this alleged trade?  Thumbs up?  Thumbs down?  Tweak?


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I heard the Bulls wanted Crowder, Bradley, Smart, and 3 and 16.

That's the kind of offer Wyc was likely talking about when he talked about teams trying to rip us off.

But take a look at Jimmy Butler's stats from this past season compared to Jae Crowder, who is younger than Butler.

And keep in mind that this was the first full year in his career that Jae actually got extended minutes:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=butleji01&y1=2016&p2=crowdja01&y2=2016&y3=2016&p3=thomais02&p4=&p5=&p6=

Crowder made twice as many 3s shooting a higher % than Butler, and had a higher 2pt%, and higher true shooting %. Butler is better at getting to the FT line and getting assists, but mostly he's just a high minute guy who takes a lot of shots.

For a slight upgrade (and much higher salary), even that trade offer rumored in your link isn't as great a deal as it sounds.

Jaylen Brown is miles ahead of where Butler was at the same age, and Butler is 6 years older than Brown. And Jae and Jaylen's contracts combined equal about half of what Jimmy Butler makes.

Then you add the 16th pick, Frenchie, who could be about as good as Sully but for a fraction of the price going forward.


I know a lot of Celtics fans thought that if we got Jimmy Butler that that would attract Kevin Durant, but that's not how it works. Butler is pretty ball dominant, then we have IT2 who scores even more than Butler does.

I don't think Durant is looking to play with a bunch of other ball dominant guys. Maybe one other. Mostly he wants an elite supporting cast, which probably includes elite bigs that the Celtics don't have.

So even the Jimmy Butler frenzy that so many fans went through wasn't even about Jimmy Butler, it was mostly about Kevin Durant.

It always escapes Cs fans' that our players can and will get better, and the grass is always greener anywhere else but Boston. 2 years ago Jimmy Butler was worse than Jae Crowder is now, and in two years Jaylen Brown will probably be giving Jimmy Butler a real run for his money.

By not trading for Butler and his huge salary, we were able to keep all our rising talent, and still have cap room for two max players. Maybe guys who actually led their teams to the playoffs last year.

It's interesting that Butler and Crowder were teammates for a year at Marquette.

arambone wrote:I heard the Bulls wanted Crowder, Bradley, Smart, and 3 and 16.

That's the kind of offer Wyc was likely talking about when he talked about teams trying to rip us off.

But take a look at Jimmy Butler's stats from this past season compared to Jae Crowder, who is younger than Butler.

And keep in mind that this was the first full year in his career that Jae actually got extended minutes:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=butleji01&y1=2016&p2=crowdja01&y2=2016&y3=2016&p3=thomais02&p4=&p5=&p6=

Crowder made twice as many 3s shooting a higher % than Butler, and had a higher 2pt%, and higher true shooting %. Butler is better at getting to the FT line and getting assists, but mostly he's just a high minute guy who takes a lot of shots.

For a slight upgrade (and much higher salary), even that trade offer rumored in your link isn't as great a deal as it sounds.

Jaylen Brown is miles ahead of where Butler was at the same age, and Butler is 6 years older than Brown. And Jae and Jaylen's contracts combined equal about half of what Jimmy Butler makes.

Then you add the 16th pick, Frenchie, who could be about as good as Sully but for a fraction of the price going forward.


I know a lot of Celtics fans thought that if we got Jimmy Butler that that would attract Kevin Durant, but that's not how it works. Butler is pretty ball dominant, then we have IT2 who scores even more than Butler does.

I don't think Durant is looking to play with a bunch of other ball dominant guys. Maybe one other. Mostly he wants an elite supporting cast, which probably includes elite bigs that the Celtics don't have.

So even the Jimmy Butler frenzy that so many fans went through wasn't even about Jimmy Butler, it was mostly about Kevin Durant.

It always escapes Cs fans' that our players can and will get better, and the grass is always greener anywhere else but Boston. 2 years ago Jimmy Butler was worse than Jae Crowder is now, and in two years Jaylen Brown will probably be giving Jimmy Butler a real run for his money.

By not trading for Butler and his huge salary, we were able to keep all our rising talent, and still have cap room for two max players. Maybe guys who actually led their teams to the playoffs last year.

arambone,


It is natural for many people to look at the glass as half-empty. It is natural for many people to look at what they actually have and not what it could become. I was one of the first, and strongest, supporters of the trade that brought Ray Allen to the Celtics on draft day in 2007. The antis were people who pointed out that he was on his back 9 and was coming off of surgery. It was bone spur surgery, nothing serious, but they saw injury and not a short-term thing that helped motivate Seattle to move him for a price that wasn't totally ridiculous. It's not just Celtic fans, it's not even basketball fans, it's a life perspective. It's not one I endorse and certainly not one I follow, quite the opposite, but it isn't an aberration.

The great Red Auerbach was only about 50/50 on his draft picks, and there was no finer purveyor of basketball talent than he. It is a cautionary tale, one that I try to remember as I find myself getting excited about draft pick positioning, actual draft picks and summer league. It isn't real until they play in regular season games. RJ Hunter looked phenomenal last year in summer league and I lost it and started cooing like a dove about him. I'm going to try to not do that with Jaylen Brown and the rest of the rookie batch this year because, let's face it, if Brown cannot shine against teams where most of the players aren't even going to get an invite to pro camp then that's not good. It's the expectation game, and it isn't fair.

One week, 7 days, to summer league.


bob


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Bob

If Boston made that deal we would still be in need of adding depth at SF with Crowder gone.  Plus taking on the Butler salary makes sense only if there is another guy who is coming.  

Butler while being an excellent player is not a top 10 player IMO.  He is not a top end shooter and he may have already reached his ceiling.  A lot of his scoring comes from being able to get to the line.  He is very very good at doing that but at the same time the wear and tear on his body may already be in evidence.  He is probably going miss 20% of the season on average due to injury.  

I am glad that Danny did not get fleeced.

dboss

Maybe arambone can post where he heard Chicago wanted Smart, Bradley, Crowder and #3 and #16.

I generally see the Crowder, #3 and #16 rumor on various websites.

If Boston had to give up Smart and Bradley too, that is too much for Boston.

We all knew going into the draft, that teams ask for a ton for their young stars who are under long term contracts. This is why we rarely see them traded.

Too rich for my blood. I just don't see Butler as top tier talent. It also seems that he would need the ball in his hands constantly to even come close to reaching his value, so I'm not even sure he would be a great fit offensively (defensively, I see the appeal).

Butler, who rubbed some teammates and executives the wrong way last season as he tried to take a more vocal approach in the locker room, was the subject of many trade rumors last week. The Bulls' front office did not feel it was getting sufficient value in any potential deal with the Minnesota Timberwolves or the Boston Celtics as they tried to move up in the draft. Butler publicly called out Hoiberg in December last season saying the rookie coach had to coach his team "harder." When asked if he could coach Butler in the future, Hoiberg responded quickly.

"Absolutely I can," Hoiberg said.

Bulls GM Gar Forman has repeatedly praised Butler in recent days, but has not committed to him as the face of the franchise moving forward as the Bulls continue to rebuild their roster. The Bulls missed the playoffs for the first time in eight seasons last year and Forman decided to deal former MVP Derrick Rose to the New York Knicks in exchange for three players last week.

The 26-year-old Butler made the All-Star team for the second straight season last year and is considered one of the best two-way players in the game. He has been selected for Team USA in the 2016 Rio Olympics.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/16560312/chicago-bulls-coach-fred-hoiberg-insists-work-all-star-jimmy-butler

Butler is hardly better than Crowder. No deal for me

wideclyde wrote:Butler is hardly better than Crowder.  No deal for me

Virtually all non-Celtic fans would laugh at that comment. And so would all unbiased Celtic fans.

steve3344 wrote:

wideclyde wrote:Butler is hardly better than Crowder.  No deal for me

Virtually all non-Celtic fans would laugh at that comment.  And so would all unbiased Celtic fans.

I think Butler is clearly better than Crowder, but I think Crowder has another significant jump coming up this year in his second full season of extended minutes. In Butler's first season of 35+ minutes, he only averaged like 13 points, whereas Crowder averaged 14 last year, and like 16 before his injury. He probably won't get the chance to get 38 mpg and 14 fga's per game like Butler has received the past two years (the only years he's been good), because we now have Jaylen Brown pushing Crowder for minutes, but I don't think Crowder is that far behind Jimmy Butler going forward.

And just as importantly, he's a fraction of the price.