Terry Rozier is forcing his way into our vision.

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Terry Rozier is forcing his way into our vision.

Post by wideclyde on Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:21 pm

Right now Rozier is sill an NBA role player, but do not ignore his many contributions to today's win and also in many other games.

He is rarely a guy who is putting up many negative stats like he did in his first year. He plays HARD all the time and is developing
offensive and defensive skills all the time. His rebounding timing is beyond what almost any player in the league can do as far as
getting the ball at the very top of his jumping ability.

With the number of guards that the Cs may have for next season (figuring that they could pick up another one with their first round
pick), Rozier may have to be moved, but if that is the case he is certainly showing that he is much more than a "throw in" to make a
trade work.

Looks like another good draft pick by Danny Ainge, and great coaching/development by Coach Stevens and his staff.

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Re: Terry Rozier is forcing his way into our vision.

Post by jrleftfoot on Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:07 pm

wideclyde wrote:Right now Rozier is sill an NBA role player, but do not ignore his many contributions to today's win and also in many other games.

He is rarely a guy who is putting up many negative stats like he did in his first year.  He plays HARD all the time and is developing
offensive and defensive skills all the time.  His rebounding timing is beyond what almost any player in the league can do as far as
getting the ball at the very top of his jumping ability.

With the number of guards that the Cs may have for next season (figuring that they could pick up another one with their first round
pick), Rozier may have to be moved, but if that is the case he is certainly showing that he is much more than a "throw in" to make a
trade work.

Looks like another good draft pick by Danny Ainge, and great coaching/development by Coach Stevens and his staff.

We`ve got plenty of dead wood.Mickey and Young are almost certainly gone.  Suppose we added  a rookie , Zizic, Yabusele and Nader . In that scenario, Zeller is completely superfluous. I think we let Jackson go way before Rozier.. Much as I love him , GG has far less value , long term , than Rozier. There is no guarantee we are adding 4 guys, either. Trades, of course, change everything. Bottom lie; barring him being a chip in a major trade , I see TR  coming back next season.
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Re: Terry Rozier is forcing his way into our vision.

Post by fierce on Mon May 01, 2017 2:58 am

If the Celts end up with Fultz, the Celts will have to let Rozier go.

It's either Bradley or Rozier.
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Re: Terry Rozier is forcing his way into our vision.

Post by dboss on Mon May 01, 2017 6:46 am

fierce wrote:If the Celts end up with Fultz, the Celts will have to let Rozier go.

It's either Bradley or Rozier.

Not necessarily. Young will be gone before Rozier and Demetrius Jackson could also get cut or traded.

dboss



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Re: Terry Rozier is forcing his way into our vision.

Post by fierce on Mon May 01, 2017 7:29 am

dboss wrote:
fierce wrote:If the Celts end up with Fultz, the Celts will have to let Rozier go.

It's either Bradley or Rozier.

Not necessarily.    Young will be gone before Rozier and Demetrius Jackson could also get cut or traded.

dboss




The roster spot will not be a problem, it's the playing time.

Thomas, Bradley, Fultz(if the Celts get him), and Smart are all going to play a lot of minutes.

Rozier is too good to be just the 5th guard on the depth chart.
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Re: Terry Rozier is forcing his way into our vision.

Post by bobheckler on Mon May 01, 2017 9:58 am

A good place to be.  A wealth of riches.  I like Rozier but I like other players too and we need upgrades.  Remember Bradley at this point in his 2nd season?  He was just starting to find his place and started 28 games in the 2nd half of the season because Ray Allen had bone spurs in his ankle.  If not for Ray's injury Bradley would have still been shuttling back-and-forth to/from Maine.  Terry is finishing his sophomore year too.  Is he ready to start?  No, but he's coming along nicely.

I'd hate to see Rozier go, but Bradley and Rozier are redundant, which is a less flattering way of saying "depth".  If we give up some of our depth as part of a package for Paul George (assuming he agrees to an extension) then best of luck to you, Terry!  Same with Bradley.  I love Bradley and his play in the Chicago series has enhanced his trade value.  He did a phenomenal job on the much bigger scoring machine Jimmy Butler and scored above his average too.  If I have to give up Bradley to get a game changer or major upgrade I'm ok with that precisely because Terry Rozier isn't that far off.

Amir is gone.  Zeller is either gone or playing for MUCH less money (the smart money says no money here).  Zizic and Yabby are coming in.  Zizic will be an upgrade over Zeller but Yabby over Amir?  I am, quite frankly, a little concerned over Yabby's defense.  I'm not saying he cannot or will not but there was no reason for him to play defense in China and he is not going to get off the bench if he doesn't play defense unless Brad feels he has a "break glass in case of emergency" situation (see Green, Gerald).  So, we have other needs and we are wealthy in back court depth.  Where better to slim down so we can beef up (no pun intended) somewhere else?


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Re: Terry Rozier is forcing his way into our vision.

Post by worcester on Mon May 01, 2017 10:36 am

IT, Bradley, Smart, and Rozier (forget about Jackson) -those are our guards. Three established players, one developing into someone special. Yes, adding Fultz or Ball would create a glut, but who is to say we add Fultz or Ball. First off, we've only got a 25% chance of getting the #1 pick. If we don't, someone else probably picks Fultz. Do we want Ball? I don't. So with our other 75% what are the chances we pick someone else? Who might that be? Who would most readily contribute to our current lineup? Any great to be 4's or 5's out there? Personally I think we are set at the 3 spot. Five of the top ten picks on draft express are PG's. One is a SG. Three are SF's. Only one is a true big, Lauri Markannen at 7' and 225 lbs.  

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2017/

Bottom line - if we don't get the #1 pick, we may draft Lauri Markannen and keep our current complement of guards. I know nothing about Lauri. Your thoughts?
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Re: Terry Rozier is forcing his way into our vision.

Post by cowens/oldschool on Mon May 01, 2017 11:07 am

he adds to our perimeter defense, flys all over the place, fearless....still a work in progress, but will definitely find a niche in this league.
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Re: Terry Rozier is forcing his way into our vision.

Post by fierce on Mon May 01, 2017 11:47 am

worcester wrote:IT, Bradley, Smart, and Rozier (forget about Jackson) -those are our guards. Three established players, one developing into someone special. Yes, adding Fultz or Ball would create a glut, but who is to say we add Fultz or Ball. First off, we've only got a 25% chance of getting the #1 pick. If we don't, someone else probably picks Fultz. Do we want Ball? I don't. So with our other 75% what are the chances we pick someone else? Who might that be? Who would most readily contribute to our current lineup? Any great to be 4's or 5's out there? Personally I think we are set at the 3 spot. Five of the top ten picks on draft express are PG's. One is a SG. Three are SF's. Only one is a true big, Lauri Markannen at 7' and 225 lbs.  

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2017/

Bottom line - if we don't get the #1 pick, we may draft Lauri Markannen and keep our current complement of guards. I know nothing about Lauri. Your thoughts?

If the Celts get the #1 pick, there's no way Ainge will not pick Fultz.

Fultz is clearly the #1 pick according to many reports and mock drafts.
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Re: Terry Rozier is forcing his way into our vision.

Post by wideclyde on Mon May 01, 2017 12:00 pm

Not sure about taking Markennen is a top 4 pick, but he is pretty smooth on offense.  His weaknesses (video)  will show marked improvement on both defense and in rebounding as soon as he learns to get into a much better stance a little bit sooner.  This usually requires adding strength for these young, taller players, and is a big reason why Olynyk has improved every season since joining the Cs.

Standing almost straight up when your man has the ball is far too late to defend well and standing almost straight up when a shot is already in the air will always make any player too easy to be pushed out of position while rebounding.

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Re: Terry Rozier is forcing his way into our vision.

Post by kdp59 on Mon May 01, 2017 12:02 pm

glad you pointed that out Bob,

Rozier reminds me of Bradley in that he seems to get better each season (only two so far) and he can play in your shorts defense (not at Bradleys level of course).

he is one of the reasons I think if the team does make a major moves Bradley is more likely to be the guy leaving. Rozier can do "some" of the things Bradley does and is much cheaper.

one thing for sure if we do draft another guard, its hard to see someone not being moved at some point as Fierce said.

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Re: Terry Rozier is forcing his way into our vision.

Post by kdp59 on Mon May 01, 2017 12:10 pm

wideclyde wrote:Not sure about taking Markennen is a top 4 pick, but he is pretty smooth on offense.  His weaknesses (video)  will show marked improvement on both defense and in rebounding as soon as he learns to get into a much better stance a little bit sooner.  This usually requires adding strength for these young, taller players, and is a big reason why Olynyk has improved every season since joining the Cs.

Standing almost straight up when your man has the ball is far too late to defend well and standing almost straight up when a shot is already in the air will always make any player too easy to be pushed out of position while rebounding.


yeah i have to agree, this draft does not have any sure thing big men and picking any of them top 4 is a reach. Cowens head would explode with Markennen on the roster I fear.

Jarrett Allen and Justin Patten are probably the best traditional big men in this draft and neither one is likely to go near the top 5. Both could in play in the top 10 however. Since most rookies today don't make a real impact for a year or two I doubt we could count on much help up front from this years draft.

I don't see Zizic or Yabusele to be regular rotation players in their first years myself, but I know some here do.

Improvement will have to come from trades or a free agent signing , IMO
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Re: Terry Rozier is forcing his way into our vision.

Post by worcester on Mon May 01, 2017 2:51 pm

If we don't get the #1 pick and Fultz, then who?
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Re: Terry Rozier is forcing his way into our vision.

Post by bobheckler on Mon May 01, 2017 3:15 pm

kdp59 wrote:
wideclyde wrote:Not sure about taking Markennen is a top 4 pick, but he is pretty smooth on offense.  His weaknesses (video)  will show marked improvement on both defense and in rebounding as soon as he learns to get into a much better stance a little bit sooner.  This usually requires adding strength for these young, taller players, and is a big reason why Olynyk has improved every season since joining the Cs.

Standing almost straight up when your man has the ball is far too late to defend well and standing almost straight up when a shot is already in the air will always make any player too easy to be pushed out of position while rebounding.


yeah i have to agree, this draft does not have any sure thing big men and picking any of them top 4 is a reach. Cowens head would explode with Markennen on the roster I fear.

Jarrett Allen and Justin Patten are probably the best traditional big men in this draft and neither one is likely to go near the top 5. Both could in play in the top 10 however. Since most rookies today don't make a real impact for a year or two I doubt we could count on much help up front from this years draft.

I don't see Zizic or Yabusele to be regular rotation players in their first years myself, but I know some here do.

Improvement will have to come from trades or a free agent signing , IMO


kdp,

Zizic could be a rotation player in his first year because he can set picks, he can roll and he can rebound.  More than that I can't say since, in order to play a lot of minutes in Brad's system you have to be able to do more than one thing.  You have to be able to play multiple positions on defense (e.g. Smart) or stretch the floor and pass (e.g. Olynyk).  The road to Brad's heart is paved with versatility and, until Zizic shows he can hit the mid-range shot or 3-ball reliably I don't see him getting much more than 15-20mpg since Al will play minutes at center and Zizic is a one-position defender who cannot play minutes at PF so I see him when we go really big or maybe when Kelly is playing and stretching the floor (assuming Kelly is with us next year). We will not see Zizic with an "Amir-like" player.


bob


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Re: Terry Rozier is forcing his way into our vision.

Post by NYCelt on Mon May 01, 2017 4:08 pm

Just throwing in two cents in general, rather than trying to respond to several insightful posts...

Truly a good problem to have...a loaded and still developing backcourt.

All IMHO of course; If we end up #1, we'll take Fultz.  Maybe a rare talent, too good to pass up.  Even though he's another guard, he answers our need for shooting and scoring.  That in turn frees up trading chips.  Thomas, Bradley, Smart, Rozier and Fultz.  You would hate to part with any, but could have a piece needed for a front-court building trade.

If we don't get the #1 pick?  Easy; Jackson or Tatum.  You have your future long-term SF who can shoot from long-range, get to the rim and provide strong defense.  They provide immediate depth along with Brown, and in the near-term future, make it possible for Crower and Brown to bolster the bench, or become part of yet another deal.  I'd take Tatum.

If you were going to draft Markkanen, you would just keep Olynyk.  Very similar players. A top 4 or 5 pick is also too high to take Markkanen.
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Re: Terry Rozier is forcing his way into our vision.

Post by bobheckler on Mon May 01, 2017 4:47 pm

NYCelt wrote:Just throwing in two cents in general, rather than trying to respond to several insightful posts...

Truly a good problem to have...a loaded and still developing backcourt.

All IMHO of course; If we end up #1, we'll take Fultz.  Maybe a rare talent, too good to pass up.  Even though he's another guard, he answers our need for shooting and scoring.  That in turn frees up trading chips.  Thomas, Bradley, Smart, Rozier and Fultz.  You would hate to part with any, but could have a piece needed for a front-court building trade.

If we don't get the #1 pick?  Easy; Jackson or Tatum.  You have your future long-term SF who can shoot from long-range, get to the rim and provide strong defense.  They provide immediate depth along with Brown, and in the near-term future, make it possible for Crower and Brown to bolster the bench, or become part of yet another deal.  I'd take Tatum.

If you were going to draft Markkanen, you would just keep Olynyk.  Very similar players.  A top 4 or 5 pick is also too high to take Markkanen.


NYCelt,

You've excluded Ball.  Is that because of his father or because you don't like his game, both or something else altogether?

Kelly is going to cost $13M next year.  His last game alone will pop GM's and coaches eyes open.  You would keep, and pay, Kelly that money instead of drafting Markkanen for 1/3 the money?  He's 7', 225#.  Kelly was 7', 238# when he came in the league and that was 10# too light I think.  Going from 225# to 250# is a big jump.  As far as taking him with a top 4 or 5 pick goes, if we're picking 5th it's because we traded down and if that's the case Danny would trade down to where he got value for his #1-4.


bob


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Re: Terry Rozier is forcing his way into our vision.

Post by worcester on Mon May 01, 2017 5:23 pm

I am not an expert on Lauri Markkanen. All I know about him is what I read today online, but he is NOT Kelly Olynyk. Here are the comparisons and contrasts.
Kelly is 26 years old. Lauri is 20.
Kelly is 7', 238; Lauri is 7' 230, but Lauri's arms already look bigger.
Kelly as a freshman had 47 FTA's in the season, 132 fta's as a junior. Lauri as a frosh had 162.
For his 3 years college career Kelly averaged .709% on FT's; Lauri averaged .835%.

Kelly as a frosh had 2.7 RB per game, 0.8 assists, 3.8 points.
As a junior Kelly averaged 7.3 RB. 1.7 assists, 17.8 ppg.
Lauri as a frosh averaged 7.2 RB, 0.9 assists, and 15.6 ppg.

Kelly averaged .333% on 75 three point attempts over three years; Lauri averaged ..423% on 162 three point attempts in one year.

I get a very good feeling about this guy. Better than Jayson Tatum who shot .342% on 117 three point attempts and whose FG% was .443% vs, an overall FG% of .492% from Lauri (who shot many more lower % three's). We don't need help at the three spot. We do need help at the 4 & 5 spots. We do need a deadeye three point shooter. If we wind up wit the third or 4th pick I'm rooting for Lauri.
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Re: Terry Rozier is forcing his way into our vision.

Post by NYCelt on Mon May 01, 2017 5:50 pm

Bob and W,

Save time..respond to two at once...

I didn't exclude Ball for any special reason.  My comment that Fultz was a must #1 was followed by my own preferences, if available and we don't draft 1st. I'd be happy enough with Ball if that's who they take, but I'd rather see us take a SF.  Can't see us trading down either, not with 4 or 5 potential game changers at the top of the draft.

After watching Marrkanen all season, I'm sure he's Kelly Olynyk.  There may be slight weight variances, and there may be a difference in cost, but he's Kelly O alright.  Pay Kelly now or Lauri in a year or two, same guy.  Think I even saw Lauri go into a phone booth and come out Kelly.  Like Kelly he's a big who shoots the 3 very well, and then gets owned on defense.  Lauri still needs to learn how to work in the high post and in the mid-post.  Like Kelly.  No way I'd take him top 5.  In a game against Cal, Ivan Rabb did a good enough job in their matchup, I thought I'd rather have Rabb.  I might even consider Jarett Allen of Texas over Lauri if going for a big before a shooter.  Allen has been developing into quite the rim protector.

My $.02 as I wait for the thunderstorm to pass so I can dash to my car.

Regards

Edit:  I like the strategy of selecting Fultz, Tatum, Jackson, or Ball, in that order, depending on our position.  Now we've got our shooter who can also defend. Then, with #36, I look for our big among Adebayo or Bryant, maybe Motley or Swanigan, depending on who is available. At #56, I don't know, maybe go for an international type on a gamble. Maybe Tim Tebow; they've picked him in every other pro league.
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Re: Terry Rozier is forcing his way into our vision.

Post by worcester on Mon May 01, 2017 6:11 pm

NY Celt, Thanks for saving me about $4M in rookie salary money on Markkanen and a valuable lottery pick. Having never seen him play, even for 1 second, I am definitely deferring to your judgment on this matter!
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Post by NYCelt on Mon May 01, 2017 6:19 pm

worcester wrote:NY Celt, Thanks for saving me about $4M in rookie salary money on Markkanen and a valuable lottery pick. Having never seen him play, even for 1 second, I am definitely deferring to your judgment on this matter!

W -

Or...I could be wrong and he could turn into something great. Just calling it the way I see it. Don't give me too much credit here. If you remember, I thought JaJuan Johnson was a keeper!

Either way, taking Marrkanen top 5 is, I think, over-reaching. He could go top 10. Maybe 8 - 10?

Regards
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Post by bobheckler on Mon May 01, 2017 7:28 pm

NYCelt wrote:
worcester wrote:NY Celt, Thanks for saving me about $4M in rookie salary money on Markkanen and a valuable lottery pick. Having never seen him play, even for 1 second, I am definitely deferring to your judgment on this matter!

W -

Or...I could be wrong and he could turn into something great.  Just calling it the way I see it.  Don't give me too much credit here.  If you remember, I thought JaJuan Johnson was a keeper!

Either way, taking Marrkanen top 5 is, I think, over-reaching.  He could go top 10.  Maybe 8 - 10?

Regards


NYCelt,

Jaylen Brown @ #3 was considered a big reach too.  Danny is inscrutable to me.  He trades a known assassin and a 1st round pick for a 5'9" #60 pick.  Sounded nuts to me when I first heard about it.  Same with trading a multi--AllStar Champion still in his prime to Dallas for 32 year old Jameer Nelson and a bunch of spare parts and then trading or waiving all of them except for one of the spare parts.  What do I know?


bob


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Re: Terry Rozier is forcing his way into our vision.

Post by fierce on Mon May 01, 2017 10:00 pm

worcester wrote:I am not an expert on Lauri Markkanen. All I know about him is what I read today online, but he is NOT Kelly Olynyk. Here are the comparisons and contrasts.
Kelly is 26 years old. Lauri is 20.
Kelly is 7', 238; Lauri is 7' 230, but Lauri's arms already look bigger.
Kelly as a freshman had 47 FTA's in the season, 132 fta's as a junior. Lauri as a frosh had 162.
For his 3 years college career Kelly averaged .709% on FT's; Lauri averaged .835%.

Kelly as a frosh had 2.7 RB per game, 0.8 assists, 3.8 points.
As a junior Kelly averaged 7.3 RB. 1.7 assists, 17.8 ppg.
Lauri as a frosh averaged 7.2 RB, 0.9 assists, and 15.6 ppg.

Kelly averaged .333% on 75 three point attempts over three years; Lauri averaged ..423% on 162 three point attempts in one year.

I get a very good feeling about this guy. Better than Jayson Tatum who shot .342% on  117 three point attempts and whose FG% was .443% vs, an overall FG% of .492% from Lauri (who shot many more lower % three's). We don't need help at the three spot. We do need help at the 4 & 5 spots. We do need a deadeye three point shooter. If we wind up wit the third or 4th pick I'm rooting for Lauri.

The Olynyk from college is different from the Olynyk we're seeing now.

Markkanen is similar to the Olynyk of today in terms of style of play.
They're 7-foot bigs who shoot from the outside.
Both are also weak on defense, especially inside the paint.

I would be very surprised if Markkanen ends up in the top 5 of the lottery.
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Re: Terry Rozier is forcing his way into our vision.

Post by bobheckler on Tue May 02, 2017 12:48 am

fierce wrote:
worcester wrote:I am not an expert on Lauri Markkanen. All I know about him is what I read today online, but he is NOT Kelly Olynyk. Here are the comparisons and contrasts.
Kelly is 26 years old. Lauri is 20.
Kelly is 7', 238; Lauri is 7' 230, but Lauri's arms already look bigger.
Kelly as a freshman had 47 FTA's in the season, 132 fta's as a junior. Lauri as a frosh had 162.
For his 3 years college career Kelly averaged .709% on FT's; Lauri averaged .835%.

Kelly as a frosh had 2.7 RB per game, 0.8 assists, 3.8 points.
As a junior Kelly averaged 7.3 RB. 1.7 assists, 17.8 ppg.
Lauri as a frosh averaged 7.2 RB, 0.9 assists, and 15.6 ppg.

Kelly averaged .333% on 75 three point attempts over three years; Lauri averaged ..423% on 162 three point attempts in one year.

I get a very good feeling about this guy. Better than Jayson Tatum who shot .342% on  117 three point attempts and whose FG% was .443% vs, an overall FG% of .492% from Lauri (who shot many more lower % three's). We don't need help at the three spot. We do need help at the 4 & 5 spots. We do need a deadeye three point shooter. If we wind up wit the third or 4th pick I'm rooting for Lauri.

The Olynyk from college is different from the Olynyk we're seeing now.

Markkanen is similar to the Olynyk of today in terms of style of play.
They're 7-foot bigs who shoot from the outside.
Both are also weak on defense, especially inside the paint.

I would be very surprised if Markkanen ends up in the top 5 of the lottery.


Fierce,

I agree.  Kelly went 13th.  Why would Kelly 2.0 minus 15# go 5th?


bob


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Re: Terry Rozier is forcing his way into our vision.

Post by kdp59 on Tue May 02, 2017 7:24 am

I have to disagree that Jaylen was a BIG reach.

most draft sites I go to had him somewhere in the top 5 as the draft came closer. to be honest he had dropped a little bit by then also.

Early on many draft sites had him in the top 3 last year. Dunn, Bender, Jaylen and Hield were all kinda grouped together after the top two last year.
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Re: Terry Rozier is forcing his way into our vision.

Post by kdp59 on Tue May 02, 2017 7:39 am

NYCelt wrote:Bob and W,

Save time..respond to two at once...

I didn't exclude Ball for any special reason.  My comment that Fultz was a must #1 was followed by my own preferences, if available and we don't draft 1st. I'd be happy enough with Ball if that's who they take, but I'd rather see us take a SF.  Can't see us trading down either, not with 4 or 5 potential game changers at the top of the draft.

After watching Marrkanen all season, I'm sure he's Kelly Olynyk.  There may be slight weight variances, and there may be a difference in cost, but he's Kelly O alright.  Pay Kelly now or Lauri in a year or two, same guy.  Think I even saw Lauri go into a phone booth and come out Kelly.  Like Kelly he's a big who shoots the 3 very well, and then gets owned on defense.  Lauri still needs to learn how to work in the high post and in the mid-post.  Like Kelly.  No way I'd take him top 5.  In a game against Cal, Ivan Rabb did a good enough job in their matchup, I thought I'd rather have Rabb.  I might even consider Jarett Allen of Texas over Lauri if going for a big before a shooter.  Allen has been developing into quite the rim protector.

My $.02 as I wait for the thunderstorm to pass so I can dash to my car.

Regards

Edit:  I like the strategy of selecting Fultz, Tatum, Jackson, or Ball, in that order, depending on our position.  Now we've got our shooter who can also defend. Then, with #36, I look for our big among Adebayo or Bryant, maybe Motley or Swanigan, depending on who is available.  At #56, I don't know, maybe go for an international type on a gamble.  Maybe Tim Tebow; they've picked him in every other pro league.


I like your thinking here as usual, since you watch all these guys play it carries a lot of weight  for me.

As I pre look at the draft (because we ARE still playing the games after all), my mind wonders a bit......and suddenly I wonder what if Danny makes the big deal before the draft?

perhaps the Bulls finally blow it all up and we send Bradley and the Nets pick to them for Butler and the 16th pick?

who would you pick out of Collins, Patten, Adebayo or Rabb?

I think John Collins might fit nicely in a couple years myself.

Tony Bradley or Anigbogu in the early second could round out that draft for me.

thoughts?
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kdp59

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