The Markelle Fultz Thread

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Re: The Markelle Fultz Thread

Post by red16russ11 on Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:45 pm

The above article makes sense. Like bob, Saric triggers my drool reflex ( I like that saying). However, if we trade down, I can't believe it would be for this kid. Jackson, Tatum, Fox and even Issac would be better at #3. I'll be pissed if we draft another midget PG, Saric or no Saric.

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Re: The Markelle Fultz Thread

Post by dboss on Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:05 pm

This is another stupid trade idea.

I failed to see the fascination with Saric. Ok so he killed us when we played them but that is because the Celtics are weak at the 4. We suck at PF.

He shot 41% from the field and .31% from behind the arc.

nuff said

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Re: The Markelle Fultz Thread

Post by red16russ11 on Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:15 pm

The fascination is he is a rookie, and a serious upgrade over what we have. You don't like Kelly, isn't Saric better than he is?
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Re: The Markelle Fultz Thread

Post by red16russ11 on Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:16 pm

Don't think the trade will happen, but it's a neat idea. I think Danny keeps the pick and takes Fultz. BUT, if he's not sold on the kid, then this is a good idea. We can get Saric and maybe Jackson, then we could trade Crowder.
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Re: The Markelle Fultz Thread

Post by Rmbone on Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:28 pm

Dennis Smith might be as good as Fultz. He's more athletic, and more fearless in attacking the rim. He's a better finisher at the rim, draws more fouls, shoots the 3 almost as well, shoots FTs better, but isn't nearly as good a mid-range shooter s Fultz at this point. But Smith also missed 10 months with his ACL tear.

Smith is very much a Danny Ainge type of guy. Kind of like a superstar version of Rozier offensively, but not as good on defense.

The difference between Smith and Fultz isn't nearly as large as people think, and if Danny can grab a guy like Dario and perhaps even an extra second round pick, getting Smith at 3 would be a GREAT trade down.

And that's assuming Josh Jackson isn't available at 3.

My top 3 is 1 Jackson 2 Fultz 3 Smith. Those are the 3 big-time stars in this draft, with Tatum just behind them.

Ignore all the "common knowledge" and "consensus" this time of year. It's just a bunch of non-experts echoing the exact same mis-info.

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Re: The Markelle Fultz Thread

Post by dboss on Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:38 pm

red16russ11 wrote:The fascination is he is a rookie, and a serious upgrade over what we have.  You don't like Kelly, isn't Saric better than he is?

So your good with Saric's numbers?

I'm not. I do like KO but only at the right price.

In my opinion Fultz is too good to pass up unless an elite level player is coming back so i am not interested in #3 and Saric.

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Re: The Markelle Fultz Thread

Post by red16russ11 on Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:45 pm

dboss wrote:
red16russ11 wrote:The fascination is he is a rookie, and a serious upgrade over what we have.  You don't like Kelly, isn't Saric better than he is?

So your good with Saric's numbers?

I'm not. I do like KO but only at the right price.

In my opinion Fultz is too good to pass up unless an elite level player is coming back so i am not interested in #3 and Saric.

dboss

I agree, but it only matters what Danny thinks.
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Re: The Markelle Fultz Thread

Post by dboss on Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:08 pm

It's a wrap.

Fultz doesn’t plan to work out with any other team besides Boston, according to the Philly Inquirer’s Keith Pompey, and the projected No. 2 pick, Lonzo Ball, declined to hold a workout with the C’s.

Read more at: http://nesn.com/2017/06/markelle-fultz-now-has-a-tasty-incentive-to-bring-celtics-an-nba-title/
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Re: The Markelle Fultz Thread

Post by bobheckler on Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:21 pm




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Re: The Markelle Fultz Thread

Post by bobheckler on Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:24 pm

Sign up
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Chris Forsberg @ESPNForsberg

Markelle Fultz checks out the banners at TD Garden during a tour with ESPN. Says it kinda feels like he belongs here.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ESPNForsberg/status/872178090327375872/photo/1
12:47 PM · Jun 6, 2017
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Re: The Markelle Fultz Thread

Post by bobheckler on Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:26 pm

A. Sherrod Blakely @SherrodbCSN
about 1 hour ago
"It's a blessing; an honor to be here." @Markelle Fultz after his workout for the @Celtics. #Celticstalk
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Re: The Markelle Fultz Thread

Post by red16russ11 on Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:52 pm

bobheckler wrote:A. Sherrod Blakely @SherrodbCSN
about 1 hour ago
"It's a blessing; an honor to be here." @Markelle Fultz after his workout for the @Celtics. #Celticstalk
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Contrast this will LaVarr/Lonzo Ball - who won't work out for us...........I think it'll be a wise, no-brainer kind of choice
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Re: The Markelle Fultz Thread

Post by dboss on Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:58 pm

http://www.espn.com/nba/team/_/name/bos/boston-celtics
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Re: The Markelle Fultz Thread

Post by Rmbone on Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:20 pm

Jeff Goodman
ESPN Insider

Markelle Fultz told ESPN that a decision has not been made whether he will work out for any other teams besides the Celtics.
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Re: The Markelle Fultz Thread

Post by NYCelt on Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:50 pm

I don't think Saric is worth giving up the chance to draft Fultz.  If we were to come out of it with Jackson or Tatum as well, that would work better.  Still, I'm not sold on Saric as the solution at forward.

In slightly more minutes than Olynyk, Saric averages slightly higher points and rebounds, and virtually the same in blocks, steals and assists.

I think we're better off taking Fultz and looking for a big in the second round, free agency, or seeking other trade targets.
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Re: The Markelle Fultz Thread

Post by bobheckler on Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:44 pm




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Re: The Markelle Fultz Thread

Post by swish on Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:11 pm

I don't share the same enthusiasm for draft picks that most board members due - so i'm hoping for a trade or free agency deal that will bring in an already established super elite player - even if it cost the Celts a number one pick.

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Re: The Markelle Fultz Thread

Post by bobheckler on Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:21 pm

Why Markelle Fultz isn’t a defensive liability



The James Harden comparisons only work on one side of the floor




By Alex Kungu on June 5, 2017 12:00 pm


Jennifer Buchanan-USA TODAY Sports




The Markelle Fultz hype train is rolling high as ever and it won’t be stopping anytime soon. The number one prospect has quickly been gaining widespread praise for his elite offensive game that has drawn comparisons to players such as James Harden, Brandon Roy, and even Dwyane Wade. With that praise, however, has come one specific criticism of the 19-year old prospect, his defense.

Whether it’s Draft Express, amateur scouts, or even casual observers, the consensus seems to be that Fultz is a sieve on defense who most likely can’t share the floor with Isaiah Thomas for long periods of time.

I’m not here to tell you that Fultz will come into the league and become the next Kwahi Leonard, but after reviewing Washington’s season one thing became pretty clear; he’s not the bad defender that he has been made out to be. In fact, I’d even go as far to say that he’s actually a good defender and could be an even better one with the Boston Celtics.


To breakdown Fultz defensive potential there needs to a nexus of things to consider. First, who the Washington Huskies were as a defensive team, what were the causes of Fultz’s struggles defensively, and then where Fultz’s strengths can translate to an NBA team.


Washington Huskies Defense

It sticks out like a sore thumb and you don’t have to be expert to see it. The Huskies defense was dreadful. Per teamrankings.com, the Huskies ranked 319th out of the 351 Division 1 teams. That’s behind schools like Delaware, Drexel, and the Incarnate Word Cardinals (me either). Former Coach Lorenzo Romar played zone a majority of the season. Primarily it was either a 2-3 or a 3-2.

The problem with zone defense is instead of staying at the hip of a particular man, you’re defending a certain area. Against a bad team it has its advantages. The primary focus is to get teams out of the paint and shooting jumpers. But there are drawbacks. Any average college team knows that if you swing the ball consistently and get the defense moving from side to side you can get into the teeth of the defense. Those repercussions are even more serious for a team like Washington because their frontcourt consists of, 6’8 Noah Dickerson, 6’9 Malik Dime, 6’9 Samuel Timmins, and 6’3 Carlos Johnson who was frequently used as a frontcourt player. Needless to say, teams had the zone figured out, and the results for Washington turned out horribly.

David Crisp was one of the main culprits for the defensive breakdowns. The 6’0 guard constantly was either getting himself out of position in zone or unable to keep up with his man.

Defenses move as strings, specifically zones where if one player gets out of wack and other guys get into new zones to recover, the defense is toast. This happened a lot for the Huskies defense and a lot of those errors came in Crisp’s area.


Furthermore, when the team did play man defense, it actually wasn’t as bad, though a lot of that had to do with the fact that they usually only played that defense against lesser teams that they were confident they could keep up with. However, even then, the lack of size really hampered the team. The Huskies ranked 222nd in defensive rebounding percentage, and if already having a struggling defense wasn’t enough, giving up extra possessions only added fuel to the fire.

The next question is what was Markelle Fultz’s roles in all this turmoil?


Markelle Fultz Defensive Struggles

Though Fultz wasn’t the defenses main problem, he also wasn’t without blame.

As we’ll get to later, Fultz was a victim of some of his teammates defensive lapses, but it is worth noting that he did make a few mental mistakes of his own. At times he could step a too far from his zone and get messed up on the contest. Other times it seemed like he gave up position on defense in order to pursue blocks.

Here, this looks like a great play by Fultz, but at the next-level if he gave up position like that he would either get scored on, be called for a foul, or both.

Fultz makes mistakes. He’s not perfect. But a majority of his mistakes have a lot less to do with inability, and a lot more with mental lapses and some bad decision making.


Markelle Fultz as a defensive factor


The other side of this argument is that despite some of his flaws, Fultz is a positive on the defensive end.


Fultz gets a lot of credit for his ability to make big-time highlight blocks, but that same timing and anticipation is what also makes him an overall solid defender. Regardless of the competition, Fultz seems to know four things; where he is, where the ball is, where his man is, and how to move on a string. As the year progressed, Fultz became more vocal and by January he was already pointing out to his teammates where they were supposed to be on defense. Unlike his reputation, which paints him as a lackluster defender who didn’t want to play defense, Fultz was more than willing to back up his teammates and took more than his fair share of charges.

That last play raises another important point as well. Look at the time of the game. College has 20 minutes halves, 40 minute games, and Fultz averaged 35.7mpg. A majority of his break time comes in the first half which means it’s all too common to see Fultz playing the last 17 miuntes of the game straight. Despite this, he still regularly made great defenses plays near the end of the game.

When you’re playing that many minutes every night and accounting for almost half of your teams total offense, the sporadic mental lapses make more sense. It’s also possible that with more controlled minutes, Fultz would actually have less of those lapses. However, Fultz has shown an ability to defend at a high-level.


What should we expect from Fultz on the defensive end?

Markelle Fultz is not an elite defensive prospect, and this wasn’t written to tell you otherwise. However, that doesn’t mean he’s a pushover, and he shouldn’t be considered a net negative.

Defense is about team harmony, especially in the NBA. Guys moves are based on rotations that are based on where either the defense dictates the offense or where the defense has to recover after the offense throws them off. All five guys have to move on a string in order to make it work. The three most important attributes to be an effective part of the string are; a good physical profile, IQ/anticipation, and effort. Throughout the season Fultz has shown all of those traits and the ability to put himself on the line defensively while still leading an offense desperate for his production.

With that being said, making the transition to the NBA is hard for any rookie regardless of their defensive potential. Fultz is going to have his bad days like Jaylen Brown where a confident veteran knows how to get to his spots and has his way with an inexperienced player. However, similar to Brown, Fultz has shown enough to make one believe that he’ll be able to improve as the year progresses and should begin to show the ability to hold his own.

It’s easy to hear the James Harden comparisons and instantly attach the woeful defensive reputation, but the urge should be denied. Fultz was a star in a barrel of crabs that skewed how many people have interpret his game on the defensive end of the floor. When the team is bad defensively, it’s easy to put your hands up and just stop trying, and honestly, Fultz had every reason to do just that. However, he instead decided to continue to work on that end, continued to make plays, and showed that at his peak, he could even be a guy we consider a two-way star.

But as for now all you really need to remember is this; Fultz brings it on both ends of the court, and anyone who tells you different isn’t paying attention
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Re: The Markelle Fultz Thread

Post by dboss on Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:21 pm

His defense will determine his minutes.

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Re: The Markelle Fultz Thread

Post by KyleCleric on Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:49 pm

Fultz has tremendous defensive upside with his athleticism, length, size, and quickness. That part of his game will be far more important to his value to the Celtics than it was for Washington and he will need to be coached up.

He'll be a heck of a Celtic. Unless we can get one of the top valued players in the NBA (Davis, Towns, Leonard, Durant, Lebron, Giannis, Harden, Westbrook, Curry), we need to just make the pick. He's the best NBA prospect in years and would be the best player in next years draft when we're again hopefully looking at a top pick. It would be great to have upside that Brown, Fultz, and Ayton (or Bamba or Doncic or Porter) represent with the core group of Isaiah, Horford, and hopefully Hayward.

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Re: The Markelle Fultz Thread

Post by swish on Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:50 am

KyleCleric wrote:Fultz has tremendous defensive upside with his athleticism, length, size, and quickness. That part of his game will be far more important to his value to the Celtics than it was for Washington and he will need to be coached up.

He'll be a heck of a Celtic. Unless we can get one of the top valued players in the NBA (Davis, Towns, Leonard, Durant, Lebron, Giannis, Harden, Westbrook, Curry), we need to just make the pick. He's the best NBA prospect in years and would be the best player in next years draft when we're again hopefully looking at a top pick. It would be great to have upside that Brown, Fultz, and Ayton (or Bamba or Doncic or Porter) represent with the core group of Isaiah, Horford, and hopefully Hayward.

You don't win championships on "upside" - you win championships with super elite players.

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Re: The Markelle Fultz Thread

Post by KyleCleric on Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:13 am

swish wrote:
KyleCleric wrote:Fultz has tremendous defensive upside with his athleticism, length, size, and quickness. That part of his game will be far more important to his value to the Celtics than it was for Washington and he will need to be coached up.

He'll be a heck of a Celtic. Unless we can get one of the top valued players in the NBA (Davis, Towns, Leonard, Durant, Lebron, Giannis, Harden, Westbrook, Curry), we need to just make the pick. He's the best NBA prospect in years and would be the best player in next years draft when we're again hopefully looking at a top pick. It would be great to have upside that Brown, Fultz, and Ayton (or Bamba or Doncic or Porter) represent with the core group of Isaiah, Horford, and hopefully Hayward.

 You don't win championships on "upside" - you win championships with super elite players.

 swish

Those are the quickest route with the longest window to super elite players that will have us competing for championships.

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Re: The Markelle Fultz Thread

Post by jrleftfoot on Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:00 am

What super elite players are available? George, Hayward and Butler don`t qualify in my opinion.We took a run at Durant and didn`t get him.We`re not getting any of the guys KyleCleric mentioned. Bird , Magic, Jordan, Curry, Thompson , Lebron ( 2nd time around)  all won (multiple, in every case except Lebron and he`s not done) championships with the teams that drafted them. You could throw in Cowens,Havlicek  Jojo White and numerous others. Unless Westbrook, Durant or Curry walks through that door, which they won`t , the best way to build an enduring dynasty is through judicious drafting, I think.
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Re: The Markelle Fultz Thread

Post by bobheckler on Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:10 am

Being one of the best in your draft class means something.  It means that an entire year's worth of aspirants were less regarded.  This also, btw, highlights my disapproval of the one-and-done rule.  It makes it harder to be confident of the talent at the top of the draft if they are only one year out of High School or, as some people are suggesting, there shouldn't be any post-High School requirement at all.  There is less of a body of work for scouts and GMs to base their opinions upon, making it more of a crap shoot and not less of one.  About the only thing you can say is that they are all in the same casino together.

The problem with building a championship through the draft is that unless you're a perennial bottom feeder it's hard to hit a bulls-eye with your draft pick.  San Antonio pulls it off because their system is burned in and they are looking for role players to fill specific slots as their current roster ages.  Red did the same thing, he drafted plug-and-play players who fit his system.  Most teams, however, don't have that going for them. That's where the "crap shoot" aspect comes in.  Most teams, drafting below the top couple picks, are trying to find pearls in the mud and the further down your pick is the fewer the pearls and the more the mud.

We have the #1 pick in this year's draft.  That player could be a bust, I think I showed on a thread somewhere that 25% of #1 picks are busts.  So, it's not a perfect science.  The odds, however, are slanted in our favor since we can choose the pick-of-the-litter from this year's crop.

Every single super-elite player was drafted.  Every.  Single.  One.  Other than Kobe (#13) and Kawhi Leonard (#14), can anybody name a super-elite player who wasn't one of the top, say, 5 picks in their draft?  Not all super-elite players are high draft picks but that's where the smart money is going.  Which means if you want a super-elite player you either have to pay through the nose for one (or already have a great team and have them flock to you like Ring Wraiths, like Durant to GSW, and they still had to not only pay him the money but also give away Bogut for a song and let go of Harrison Barnes.  So KD wasn't "free".  A great deal?  No doubt, but it took more than just writing a check) or have a top 5 pick, like us, and wait a few years.

Every draft has their sleepers.  Jimmy Butler was #30, DeAndre Jordan and Draymond Green were both #35, but it gets easier the higher you go up in the draft since the better talent is still on the board when it's your time.  In our case, ALL of the talent will be on the board when it's our turn to choose.




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Re: The Markelle Fultz Thread

Post by cowens/oldschool on Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:42 am

There's only 3 ways to acquire players, draft, trades and free agent signings, teams throughout history have gotten their nucleus or cornerstone/franchise player through the draft. Later you can still tweak it further through trades or signings. We are in a unique situation with great picks handed to us by a great trade, exciting time to reap those benefits. I wouldn't trade those picks unless it's a young first team all NBA talent, and every franchise holds onto those players.
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