Brad's use of Jaylen confounds me.

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Re: Brad's use of Jaylen confounds me.

Post by cowens/oldschool on Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:42 am

swish wrote:Perhaps it's time for Brad to read this forum everyday so that he can pick up some tips on how to really coach. Obviously he and his staff just don't get it - and it's so simple.

 swish

Swish that’s not like you, this is an interesting thread on Jaylen not getting enough play/shots/touches at times after a torrid start, and it’s not the first time it has happened....I feel your post was very condescending.
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Re: Brad's use of Jaylen confounds me.

Post by mrkleen09 on Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:37 am

worcester wrote:Mrkleen, You have either questioned my intellect or my honor or both. Fortunately I have facts to back up my assertions, but first let's address the straw men issues that you have posed. Foremost, the issue is not with Jaylen's minutes in the Washington game! That is  straw man.  It's when they came, and there were very few in the 2nd quarter after he had been spectacularly hot. When he did get in he had but one shot attempt in the 2nd quarter and only 2 in the 3rd. Depriving a hot player the ball and having him sit on the bench for extended periods is a good way to chill a hot hand.

Another way is simply not to pass him the ball. For a coach to allow his offense to keep the ball away from the team's currently best offensive player is poor coaching. Misguided. Inefficient. NOT SMART. There, I've said it. Wonder boy coach Brad is at times not smart when making use of Jaylen's talents. Many times Jaylen has been hot in the first Q, and then does not get enough touches thereafter, because plays are then designed for others, not him. He does not get enough shot opportunities, plain and simple. That is not an accident. That is by design. Brad's design.

Consider this. Since the All Star Break Jaylen leads the league, the entire NBA in scoring efficiency per touches. Better than Durant, Klay Thompson, and Steph. Jaylen shot 47.4% from three and 79.4% from the free throw line since the ASB. And with Marcus Smart and Kyrie out of the lineup, Brad STILL reduced Jaylen's touches, despite offensive efficiency that is statistically on a par with Bird and Jordan at their finest.
Post ASB touches per game:
Rozier 77.7
Al 57.4
Morris 48.9
Tatum 45.5
Monroe 43.5
Brown 37.2.

Wrap your mind around that.

Yet Jaylen still led the team in scoring since the ASB. Someone who is eighth on the Celts in touches overall this year and sixth since the departure of Kyrie and Smart.

Stop, please, anyone and everyone, who thinks Jaylen is being shown the respect he deserves as an offensive player. Even Max concurred with this opinion during the Wizards broadcast.

The only reasonable explanation I can conjure is that Brad must have caught Jaylen sleeping with Brad's wife. Otherwise, this makes no sense to me.

Worcester - lets stop with the personal attack bullshit. No one is questioning your honor, no one is questioning your intellect. I like you, I have known you for years. I agree with a great deal you say out here, on this subject I disagree with your assessment - period. Its nothing personal.

What Jaylen did in the Washington game is what he in essence does in EVERY GAME. His stats, touches, and shooting percentage over the course of the entire season support his performance in the Wizards game. He is a young player and suffers from up and down performance. Something his coaching staff knows a lot better that any of us. This is not some grand conspiracy - Jaylen Brown is inconsistent.

Scoring efficiency per touch is as flawed a stat as Per 36, which has long been debated here as a poor indicator of much of anything.

Jaylen Brown averages 11 FGA per game
The league leaders in scoring are taking nearly TWICE AS MANY shots per game
Westbrook 21
Harden 20
Booker, James, Davis, Lillard average 19+

Are you suggesting that if Jaylen Brown got twice as many shots as he gets now, he would be as efficient as the best players in the league? He certainly would not be, because as Bob stated very simply. He isnt a great player yet. He is young and his performances are up and down.

This is not some grand conspiracy - Jaylen Brown is inconsistent.






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Re: Brad's use of Jaylen confounds me.

Post by swish on Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:13 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:
swish wrote:Perhaps it's time for Brad to read this forum everyday so that he can pick up some tips on how to really coach. Obviously he and his staff just don't get it - and it's so simple.

 swish

Swish that’s not like you, this is an interesting thread on Jaylen not getting enough play/shots/touches at times after a torrid start, and it’s not the first time it has happened....I feel your post was very condescending.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
     .I feel your post was very condescending.[/quote]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
cowens - It was meant to be - after all, which members of this board were sitting on the bench during the Wizzard game and were privy to the strategies being employed by BOTH teams that could have had an effect on shot selection etc ? Lets face it - As sports fans we are at best (professional ?) speculators and Monday morning quarterbacks.

  swish


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Re: Brad's use of Jaylen confounds me.

Post by worcester on Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:23 am

Correction, actually, Jaylen doesn’t lead the league in points per touch. Gordon, Reddick and Gary Harris are ahead of him, but Jaylen is still doing remarkably well given how little he gets his hands on the ball.

Thanks Cow. You are so right about Jaylen becoming the next Kawhi.

Meanwhile I have a patient who was coached as a teenager in summer basketball camp[ by Dave Cowens who could not have been more generous with his time and attention. Cowens especially taught the importance and techniques of boxing out.
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Re: Brad's use of Jaylen confounds me.

Post by k_j_88 on Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:12 am

Kleen,

Actually I was responding to how it was posted. There wasn't any context for it to be taken out of.

I assume people here are watching the games. And if you're paying attention to what happens in-game, it's not just simply stats. It's also the flow of the game that needs to be considered. That's where these observations, which are valid, originate from.

Kj
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Re: Brad's use of Jaylen confounds me.

Post by swish on Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:20 am

cowens

Your statement below.

"Jaylen can be a matchup nightmare down low."

Maybe in the future - but right now he's far from being a dominant player down low. Both he and Tatum are excellent outside shooters but are poor shooters down low. The league percentage average for shots taken in the 3 to 10 foot range is .394 - For Brown it's .321 and Tatum it's .258. In the Wizzards game Brown was 0 for 4 in the 3 to 10 foot range.

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Re: Brad's use of Jaylen confounds me.

Post by worcester on Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:18 am

I hope Jaylen works on that 3 to 10 foot shot over the summer.
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Re: Brad's use of Jaylen confounds me.

Post by mrkleen09 on Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:12 am

k_j_88 wrote:Kleen,

Actually I was responding to how it was posted. There wasn't any context for it to be taken out of.

I assume people here are watching the games. And if you're paying attention to what happens in-game, it's not just simply stats. It's also the flow of the game that needs to be considered. That's where these observations, which are valid, originate from.

Kj

I watch every game, multiple times since my 4 year old wants to watch them over and over. What I see is Jaylen Brown disappearing as games go on. He drifts off to the corner to wait for a 3 point FG attempt, he defers to his teammates more, is less likely to take his man 1-on-1 etc. I dont see this as a "strategy or a failing" of Coach Stevens, I see it as a 21 year old that does not take charge and demand the ball, so the ball goes elsewhere.

Clearly Jaylen is a better player than Terry Rozier, but Rozier is much more assertive on big possessions. He wants to ball. I dont see the same fire with Jaylen on a consistent basis, which is why I have to fall back on the stats that say at this point, Brown is a 21 year old that is what he is. You can expect 14 points off 11 shots and anything outside of that, is a aberration.

He will get better and as he becomes more aggressive for longer periods of time, he will get more shots and more points and everyone will miraculously start to praise Coach for his great game planning.
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Re: Brad's use of Jaylen confounds me.

Post by Ktronic1 on Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:14 am

mrkleen09 wrote:
worcester wrote:Mrkleen, You have either questioned my intellect or my honor or both. Fortunately I have facts to back up my assertions, but first let's address the straw men issues that you have posed. Foremost, the issue is not with Jaylen's minutes in the Washington game! That is  straw man.  It's when they came, and there were very few in the 2nd quarter after he had been spectacularly hot. When he did get in he had but one shot attempt in the 2nd quarter and only 2 in the 3rd. Depriving a hot player the ball and having him sit on the bench for extended periods is a good way to chill a hot hand.

Another way is simply not to pass him the ball. For a coach to allow his offense to keep the ball away from the team's currently best offensive player is poor coaching. Misguided. Inefficient. NOT SMART. There, I've said it. Wonder boy coach Brad is at times not smart when making use of Jaylen's talents. Many times Jaylen has been hot in the first Q, and then does not get enough touches thereafter, because plays are then designed for others, not him. He does not get enough shot opportunities, plain and simple. That is not an accident. That is by design. Brad's design.

Consider this. Since the All Star Break Jaylen leads the league, the entire NBA in scoring efficiency per touches. Better than Durant, Klay Thompson, and Steph. Jaylen shot 47.4% from three and 79.4% from the free throw line since the ASB. And with Marcus Smart and Kyrie out of the lineup, Brad STILL reduced Jaylen's touches, despite offensive efficiency that is statistically on a par with Bird and Jordan at their finest.
Post ASB touches per game:
Rozier 77.7
Al 57.4
Morris 48.9
Tatum 45.5
Monroe 43.5
Brown 37.2.

Wrap your mind around that.

Yet Jaylen still led the team in scoring since the ASB. Someone who is eighth on the Celts in touches overall this year and sixth since the departure of Kyrie and Smart.

Stop, please, anyone and everyone, who thinks Jaylen is being shown the respect he deserves as an offensive player. Even Max concurred with this opinion during the Wizards broadcast.

The only reasonable explanation I can conjure is that Brad must have caught Jaylen sleeping with Brad's wife. Otherwise, this makes no sense to me.

Worcester - lets stop with the personal attack bullshit.  No one is questioning your honor, no one is questioning your intellect.  I like you, I have known you for years.  I agree with a great deal you say out here, on this subject I disagree with your assessment  - period.  Its nothing personal.

What Jaylen did in the Washington game is what he in essence does in EVERY GAME.  His stats, touches, and shooting percentage over the course of the entire season support his performance in the Wizards game.  He is a young player and suffers from up and down performance.  Something his coaching staff knows a lot better that any of us.  This is not some grand conspiracy - Jaylen Brown is inconsistent.

Scoring efficiency per touch is as flawed a stat as Per 36, which has long been debated here as a poor indicator of much of anything.  

Jaylen Brown averages 11 FGA per game
The league leaders in scoring are taking nearly TWICE AS MANY shots per game
Westbrook 21
Harden 20
Booker, James, Davis, Lillard average 19+

Are you suggesting that if Jaylen Brown got twice as many shots as he gets now, he would be as efficient as the best players in the league?  He certainly would not be, because as Bob stated very simply.  He isnt a great player yet.  He is young and his performances are up and down.  

This is not some grand conspiracy - Jaylen Brown is inconsistent.  






During that game against Washington it was clearly obvious that Jaylen just didnt disappear. He took him out when he was scorching hot and never went back to him. Brad has used Jason at times in the same manner.
It was so obvious to me. I could’ve been listening on the radio and still would have picked up on how Jalen was/was not being utilized!
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Re: Brad's use of Jaylen confounds me.

Post by worcester on Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:15 am

+1!
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Re: Brad's use of Jaylen confounds me.

Post by cowens/oldschool on Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:38 am

swish wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:
swish wrote:Perhaps it's time for Brad to read this forum everyday so that he can pick up some tips on how to really coach. Obviously he and his staff just don't get it - and it's so simple.

 swish

Swish that’s not like you, this is an interesting thread on Jaylen not getting enough play/shots/touches at times after a torrid start, and it’s not the first time it has happened....I feel your post was very condescending.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
     .I feel your post was very condescending.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
cowens - It was meant to be - after all, which members of this board were sitting on the bench during the Wizzard game and were privy to the strategies being employed by BOTH teams that could have had an effect on shot selection etc ? Lets face it - As sports fans we are at best (professional ?) speculators and Monday morning quarterbacks.

  swish[/quote]

None of us are on the bench as far as I know, so why have a discussion board, we’re all speculating and giving opinions? We say a lot of the same things that pundits covering the game are saying, they are not in the huddle either....
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Re: Brad's use of Jaylen confounds me.

Post by mrkleen09 on Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:39 am

So based on the amazing consistency of his stats and the law of averages that show over the course of the season, clearly Brad has been doing this all season long. Our genius coach, one of the most respected in the game, has it out for Jaylen. Sounds plausible.
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Re: Brad's use of Jaylen confounds me.

Post by k_j_88 on Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:40 am

Agreed Ktronic

Kj
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Re: Brad's use of Jaylen confounds me.

Post by worcester on Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:47 am

No, he does not have it out for Jaylen to the extreme, but to some bizarre extent, yes, he does slight him. His style is to spread the shots around regardless who is the better player and hotter hand on the court. This hurts Jaylen.

Doc was like that with Rondo during his rookie year until all the other PG's got hurt and he had to play him.
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Re: Brad's use of Jaylen confounds me.

Post by mrkleen09 on Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:24 pm

So now we are onto something.

Its not just Jaylen, is an an overall failing of Brad Stevens. The head coach of the 4th best team in the NBA doesnt understand how to ride the hot hand or adapt his offense to find the best option.

So what about Terry Rozier - a guy who has LESS plays run for him than Jaylen Brown and plays less minutes per game.

In Brad Stevens regressive system, how is it that Terry gets up more shots per 36, more shots per 100 possessions, and more actual shots in the 4th quarter than Jaylen?

No one is running plays for Terry, Rozier gets his because he goes and GETS HIS. Period.




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Re: Brad's use of Jaylen confounds me.

Post by swish on Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:18 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:
swish wrote:
cowens/oldschool wrote:
swish wrote:Perhaps it's time for Brad to read this forum everyday so that he can pick up some tips on how to really coach. Obviously he and his staff just don't get it - and it's so simple.

 swish

Swish that’s not like you, this is an interesting thread on Jaylen not getting enough play/shots/touches at times after a torrid start, and it’s not the first time it has happened....I feel your post was very condescending.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
     .I feel your post was very condescending.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
cowens - It was meant to be - after all, which members of this board were sitting on the bench during the Wizzard game and were privy to the strategies being employed by BOTH teams that could have had an effect on shot selection etc ? Lets face it - As sports fans we are at best (professional ?) speculators and Monday morning quarterbacks.

  swish

None of us are on the bench as far as I know, so why have a discussion board, we’re all speculating and giving opinions? We say a lot of the same things that pundits covering the game are saying, they are not in the huddle either....[/quote]

cowens

"that pundits covering the game are saying, they are not in the huddle either....[/quote]"

And I give their opinions the same degree of credibility that I give the fans. As for opinion Forums - great opportunities to express an opinion - especially for those that have at some point in time, may have fancied themselves as a coach or general manager - A chance to participate in a subject of mutual interest.

swish

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Re: Brad's use of Jaylen confounds me.

Post by mulcogiseng on Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:27 pm

I've written and erased about 10 responses to some of the comments. No matter how slick I think I am I just can't express myself convivially enuf to hit send once i've read the message.

I know I'd rather talk about basketball and player usage, and style of game rather than whether or not someone has the right to express their opinion or offer a criticism of the coach, or some other opinion. unpopular or otherwise.
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Re: Brad's use of Jaylen confounds me.

Post by worcester on Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:44 pm

Mrkleen, Terry gets more shots because he is the ball handling point guard. Jaylen is a wing/shooting guard. Terry brings the ball up court. Terry distributes or does not distribute the ball to the likes of Jaylen.
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Re: Brad's use of Jaylen confounds me.

Post by worcester on Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:04 pm

Comment from MikefromNP:

Terry has averaged 58.2 touches per game on the season, and was averaging 77.7 after the All-Star break. Jaylen averaged 38.9 a game on the season and that DROPPED to 37.2 after the break.... yet Jaylen still scored 16.2 ppg after the break against Terry’s 14.5 despite the fact that Terry took 12.5 shots a game versus Jaylen's 11.6. Jaylen scores .435 points per touch against Terry’s .186. The guy is absurdly wrong.
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Re: Brad's use of Jaylen confounds me.

Post by hawksnestbeach on Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:35 pm

Wow, glad I was smart enough not to comment on this thread, but oh-oh, can't stop fingers from typing: Knowledgeable fans can make telling observations and while they don't know the whole story, they know what they see. Brad's a good coach, who may not find that winning each game, especially at the end of the season, is the most important goal. The playoffs are the real season, so let's go kick some @ss. Hawk

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Re: Brad's use of Jaylen confounds me.

Post by worcester on Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:56 pm

"Brad's a good coach, who may not find that winning each game, especially at the end of the season, is the most important goal. The playoffs are the real season, so let's go kick some @ss. Hawk"

Hawk, that is probably a wise appraisal of this situation which I hope underlies Brad's thinking in his use of Jaylen since the ASB. I am sorry for sounding especially strident and disrespectful of the opinions of mrkleen on the Jaylen issue. None of us really knows Brad's inside game planning. If Jaylen harbors no resentment and is happy with his role, that is all that matters. I hope that is the case. If not, I hope he has an open channel of communication with Brad  to clear things up before they fester. I see Jaylen as being a preeminent player in the league for years to come and don't want coaching conflicts to come in the way of that.

Speaking of preeminent, here are some stats comparing Paul Pierce and Jaylen:

By the end of Paul's rookie season he was 21.5 years old with these stats:
His FG% was 43.9%
3P% - 41.2%
FT% - 71.3
AST/TO - 2.4/2.4
PPG - 16.5

From the ASB to the end of Jaylen's second season he was 21.5 years old with these stats:
His FG% was 49.2%
3P% - 47.4%
FT% - 79.4
AST/TO - 1.8/1.9
PPG - 16.2

If you lopped of the first 20 games of Paul's rookie season their stats would be pretty darn similar.
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Re: Brad's use of Jaylen confounds me.

Post by hawksnestbeach on Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:23 pm

Worcester, We're all excited, in the playoffs with some chance to go deep, even with our 2 best players out. If Jaylen weren't verging on stardom, we wouldn't be here. The next few weeks should show us more. IMO, Brad knows what he has in the Js, and has tried to elevate others. Also I think Jaylen's concussion scared the shitz out of management so Brad may want to use him only when he has to. Next round, he has to. Hawk

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Re: Brad's use of Jaylen confounds me.

Post by dboss on Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:21 pm

Usage is not just about how many minutes a guy plays although that is part of it.  In that regards focusing just on MP does not fully address utilization.

My thought regarding Jaylen and his utilization in the recent game were related to him not being the primary option.  During the second half of the game he was often the 2nd and 3rd option.

Since he is one of our better scorers I would like to see Brad feature him more in the offense.  In other words run more plays for him to score.

During the year I have seen a lot of games where Brad has left him on the bench too long.  I recall after one game Brad admitted to that fact.

The other night they announced that Brown was 2nd in increasing his scoring average from the previous year.

He has arrived and with Kyrie gone for the year he is our top gun.

In the end I am absolutely certain about one thing.  All of us want Brown and all of his teammates to succeed.

Overall, I think this is a very relevant thread.
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Re: Brad's use of Jaylen confounds me.

Post by dboss on Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:29 pm

swish wrote:  cowens

Your statement below.

   "Jaylen can be a matchup nightmare down low."

 Maybe in the future - but right now he's far from being a dominant player down low. Both he and Tatum are excellent outside shooters but are poor shooters down low. The league percentage average for shots taken in the 3 to 10 foot range is .394 - For Brown it's .321 and Tatum it's .258. In the Wizzards game Brown was 0 for 4 in the 3 to 10  foot range.

  swish
I think Cowens is correct.  Jaylen is a matchup nightmare down low.  The operative word here is matchup.  He is a SG and physically dominates his opponent.  At 6 ft 7 inches and stud strong he can overpower SG and PG that are matched up on him.

That is what I am seeing.  His athleticism and ability to play through contact.
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Re: Brad's use of Jaylen confounds me.

Post by bobc33 on Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:11 pm

worcester wrote:Comment from MikefromNP:

Terry has averaged 58.2 touches per game on the season, and was averaging 77.7 after the All-Star break. Jaylen averaged 38.9 a game on the season and that DROPPED to 37.2 after the break.... yet Jaylen still scored 16.2 ppg after the break against Terry’s 14.5 despite the fact that Terry took 12.5 shots a game versus Jaylen's 11.6. Jaylen scores .435 points per touch against Terry’s .186. The guy is absurdly wrong.

Worcester, MikefromNP is our old friend from BDC days and our get together at the Sports Depot many moons ago isn’t he? The reason I ask is today on one of the Boston sports radio programs there was a “Mike from Providence” on making the case statistically the Jaylen was underutilized. I was thinking they are one and the same?
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