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Celtics Wrap: Boston’s Comeback Falls Short In 117-109 Loss Vs. Knicks

NESN by Joshua Schrock on Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 9:57PM

The New York Knicks should have been exactly what the doctor ordered for the Boston Celtics, but they were anything but that Wednesday night.

New York had been playing dreadful basketball during its six-game losing streak, but a different Knicks team showed up to TD Garden, as the Knicks jumped out to a 26-point lead midway through the second quarter.

It was the eighth time in the past nine games that the Celtics had fallen behind by double digits, and once again they made a run in the second half, cutting the lead to three in the fourth quarter. But Trey Burke (29 points) capped his big night by drilling a 3-pointer with 12 seconds to play to end the C’s rally and give New York a 117-109 win.

Kyrie Irving led Boston with 22 points, while Marcus Morris (21), Al Horford (19), Gordon Hayward (19), Jayson Tatum (15) and Jaylen Brown (11) also scored in double figures for Boston.

With the loss, the Celtics fall to 9-9, while the Knicks improve to 5-14.

Here’s how it all went down:

STARTING FIVE
PG: Kyrie Irving
SG: Jaylen Brown
SF: Jayson Tatum
PF: Al Horford
C: Aron Baynes

CLANK
Both teams struggled from the field early in the game, with the Knicks owning a 15-11 edge halfway through the opening stanza despite shooting just 28 percent from the field. Boston wasn’t much better, connecting on 31 percent of their looks in the first six minutes.

New York extended its lead in the latter stages of the frame, going on an 11-3 run over 3:43 to take a 26-14 edge with under two to play in the quarter.

The Celtics got two baskets from Morris to end the quarter to cut the lead to 26-18 at the end of one. Noah Vonleh led all scorers with seven in the frame, while Tatum paced the C’s with five.

BOO BIRDS COME OUT
Things went from bad to worse for the Celtics early in the second.

New York opened the frame on a 14-6 run, capped by a Burke jumper to give the Knicks a 16-point lead with just under eight minutes to play. Boston continued to struggle offensively, going 2-for-8 in the first four minutes of the quarter. The Knicks took it to the Celtics throughout the second quarter, extending their lead to 26 with 3:24 to play thanks to solid play from Burke, Vonleh and Enes Kanter.

Boston mounted a late run at the end of the frame, as Hayward scored six points in the final 1:35 to help the C’s cut the lead to 65-49 at the half.

Burke led everyone with 18 points in the break, while Hayward was the high man for Boston with 13.

COME BACK ON?
Boston showed some energy early in the third quarter, cutting the Knicks’ lead to 10 with under five to play, thanks to Irving and Morris combining to score nine of Boston’s first 13 points of the quarter.

The two teams traded buckets for the rest of what was a rather uneventful stanza, with an Alonzo Trier 3-pointer at the buzzer giving the Knicks an 84-69 lead after three.

NOT ENOUGH
The Knicks stretched their lead out to 20 to begin the fourth, but Boston responded with a 13-2 run over 2:23 to cut the lead to 10 with 7:25 to play.

New York then responded to Boston’s run with one of its own. First, Burke canned a jumper to push it to 12. Then, after a Frank Ntililkina layup, Tim Hardaway Jr. drained a triple to push the lead back to 16 with six to play.

The Celtics made one final run, as back-to-back Morris 3-pointers cut the lead to nine with two to play. After a New York turnover, an Irving floater cut the lead to seven and then Hayward drilled a triple to trim the lead to four with 1:05 to play.

With the lead at four with under a minute to play, the Celtics stole the ball from Hardaway leading to a fastbreak for Boston. Brown was fouled going for a layup, but the guard hit Emanuel Mudiay with an elbow, leading to a technical foul.

Hardaway missed the technical free throw and Brown made one of his to cut the lead to 112-109. On the ensuing possession, Burke drilled a step-back 3-pointer to hand the Celtics a 115-109 loss.

PLAY OF THE GAME
That’s what we call a high-percentage look.

UP NEXT
The Celtics will take the court again Friday when they visit the Atlanta Hawks. Tip-off from State Farm Arena is set for 7:30 p.m. ET.

112288

WELL I NOW KNOW WHO IS THE BIGGEST TURKEY THIS YEAR IN BOSTON!

NO PARDONS THIS YEAR................OFF TO THE CHOPPING BLOCK AND THEIR HEAD!

EVERYONE HAVE A WONDERFUL & SAFE THANKSGIVING......GOD BLESS ALL!

112288 & FAMILY

Watch for a minor trade by Danny to send a warning shot over players heads to get their butts in gear and start playing ball!


112288

Welcome to the new NBA where generally whoever gets hotter from 3 wins the game. Having said that we still could have won this game, but we couldn’t string enough plays both ends to pull it out. Team has some flaws that were hidden by 16 game winning streak last year. Take away that 16 game winning streak, what would our record be? Last year we weren’t really that good, but managed to hold onto best record in East. This year seeing some flaws, would you rather have Kantor and Robinson going forward or Horford and Baynes? We made Kantor look like Moses Malone and Robinson was blocking everything in the paint.
 Al shot good, but couldn’t keep their bigs off the glass, a recurring problem.

This game showed the worst and potential good of Jaylen Brown, first half couldn’t buy a bucket, missed finishing an alley opp, then came on 2nd half, nice end to end finish and an alley opp, then can’t hit both FT’s at crucial time after making great steal. Has gifted attributes that you want in a wing, still not near finished product as is Jayson Tatum, both still making mistakes or disappearing for stretches that are costing us games. Terry Rozier doesn’t know his role, making a lot of bad plays that he should not be making, like taking it right to Robinson and eating the ball. A heady young vet should not make that play.

In this game, anyone can step up and get hot, Knicks came in losing 6 straight and earned this one, getting 
huge contributions from Burke, Hardaway, Vonleh, Kantor and Robinson killed us all game in the paint. We need to redefine our roles, last year like magic everyone gelled, this year we haven’t figured out how to put everyone in the best position to use their strengths. Even with terrible 3 point shooting first 3 quarters, had we controlled some more boards, hit our FT’s, just played a little better, we could have won. In 86 Knicks shocked us and won on Christmas Day, even that great team had a few off games. I liked the fight we showed getting the game close, but 26 point leads are hard to overcome.

A play we should be running for Jaylen every game to get him going is the old Pierce bullyball play, posting then lobbing for a catch and score. We ran that few times 10 or so games ago and haven’t seen it since. Jaylen has the strength and hops to do this play as good or better than Pierce.

cowens/oldschool wrote:Welcome to the new NBA where generally whoever gets hotter from 3 wins the game. Having said that we still could have won this game, but we couldn’t string enough plays both ends to pull it out. Team has some flaws that were hidden by 16 game winning streak last year. Take away that 16 game winning streak, what would our record be? Last year we weren’t really that good, but managed to hold onto best record in East. This year seeing some flaws, would you rather have Kantor and Robinson going forward or Horford and Baynes? We made Kantor look like Moses Malone and Robinson was blocking everything in the paint.
 Al shot good, but couldn’t keep their bigs off the glass, a recurring problem.

This game showed the worst and potential good of Jaylen Brown, first half couldn’t buy a bucket, missed finishing an alley opp, then came on 2nd half, nice end to end finish and an alley opp, then can’t hit both FT’s at crucial time after making great steal. Has gifted attributes that you want in a wing, still not near finished product as is Jayson Tatum, both still making mistakes or disappearing for stretches that are costing us games. Terry Rozier doesn’t know his role, making a lot of bad plays that he should not be making, like taking it right to Robinson and eating the ball. A heady young vet should not make that play.

In this game, anyone can step up and get hot, Knicks came in losing 6 straight and earned this one, getting 
huge contributions from Burke, Hardaway, Vonleh, Kantor and Robinson killed us all game in the paint. We need to redefine our roles, last year like magic everyone gelled, this year we haven’t figured out how to put everyone in the best position to use their strengths. Even with terrible 3 point shooting first 3 quarters, had we controlled some more boards, hit our FT’s, just played a little better, we could have won. In 86 Knicks shocked us and won on Christmas Day, even that great team had a few off games. I liked the fight we showed getting the game close, but 26 point leads are hard to overcome.

COWEN

The difference between the 1986 team and this team in 2018 ................on paper we appear to be a good team,  in reality we are not that good of a team!

There is something fundamentally missing ....an intangible ..............coming back from huge deficits with the majority of your games played is not normal.  

It starts with the coaching staff and ends with the players.  Or maybe not............you know the old saying..........junk in.....junk out!

I can tell you one thing this modern game, driven by analytics, is a bunch of BULL SHXT!  Ya in theory, if you shoot this many 3's during a game you will outscore your opponent by 6.760251 points..................ya..........only if you have a team with players that can shoot consistently from the arc.  You know what Red would say..............Just Fu@*ing score..........layups, foul shots, steals, field goals, run baby run............just score!

There was a reason why Red always said, and I believe it holds true today.................you build your team from the inside out starting with the center position.    Your defense and your offense starts at the center position.  You run your offense through your center position and allow your wings and guards to become creative. We hardly do this.  The majority of our offense during a game is dribble, pass it around and shoot from the arc.  And, when you are not a good shooting team from the arc, teams sag into the paint giving you no room for a high percentage shot in the paint.

Here is our standings in the NBA for scoring in the paint

Boston - (2018) 30th - 39.8%  (Dead last) ....................(2017) 29th - 40.1% (Next to last)


Look for a small trade to break this malaise and wake players up.........perhaps signaling to Brad too, that everyone is expendable including you!

112288

What do we Celtics fans have to be thankful for this festive day following a loss to the Knicks?
1. It is a long season.
2. We have clarity on one issue - we need a center.

worcester wrote:What do we Celtics fans have to be thankful for this festive day following a loss to the Knicks?
1. It is a long season.
2. We have clarity on one issue - we need a center.

Right Al and Baynes are both 32, if Brad doesn’t want to play Williams because he’s not ready, just play him, Robinson had a bunch of bad games, now already he’s a force on defense....we’re already losing, our bigs can’t rebound, do we want Tatum, Smart, Rozier to be our best rebounders?

The team the Celtics have constructed is not constructed as a team. Players don't have distinct roles, and as a result, the overall chemistry is horrible. Another poster, maybe Dboss, suggested that positionless basketball is great in theory but diffucult in practice. If positionless means completely interchangeable roles, then I think he is on to something.

There is a chapter in Bill Simmons basketball book where Isiah Thomas (the Detroit Pistons Isiah) explains that the secret of winning in basketball is not assembling the best players but rather assembling the best team. The past few years the Celtics seemed to have over achieved based on personel, but in fact those were well constructed teams where players had clear roles. This years team looks like another example of a paper champion. It doesn't help that there is no real leader; Smart has the temperment, but not enough game to command respect - Kyrie has the game but not the temperment.

Wheres Williams?

KJ

Fortunately Williams is not with the Red Claws.

I flipped over to the Bucks v. Trailblazers game last night.  Worcester, talking about needing a center, the Bucks worked it inside to TGF close to 1,000 times, mostly for dunks or dunks and 1.  

After building close to an 80 point lead, THEN they started jacking up the 3's.  Some fell, most did not, but it didn't matter at that point.  Perhaps the Celtics should take a page from this tired old strategy/method of winning games.  

Our center Horford or whatever he is, is out jacking up threes from the start of the game and appears to put up numbers perhaps similar to a poor man's Draymond Green.  

Something will be done via a small trade or line-up shake up.  Another thread poses an interesting question about BS only way to coach is for the team to be a severe underdog.  Never thought of that.  I don't know what the solution(s) will be but something will be coming.  It is hard to watch these games of getting down by 40 points and having us come back to about 7-10 down when the clock runs out.  That has to be torture not only for us the fans watching but for the players.  They know this isn't working.  Something is brewing.  In the meantime while waiting, get ready for us to go below .500.    

db

Ughh.

112288 wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:Welcome to the new NBA where generally whoever gets hotter from 3 wins the game. Having said that we still could have won this game, but we couldn’t string enough plays both ends to pull it out. Team has some flaws that were hidden by 16 game winning streak last year. Take away that 16 game winning streak, what would our record be? Last year we weren’t really that good, but managed to hold onto best record in East. This year seeing some flaws, would you rather have Kantor and Robinson going forward or Horford and Baynes? We made Kantor look like Moses Malone and Robinson was blocking everything in the paint.
 Al shot good, but couldn’t keep their bigs off the glass, a recurring problem.

This game showed the worst and potential good of Jaylen Brown, first half couldn’t buy a bucket, missed finishing an alley opp, then came on 2nd half, nice end to end finish and an alley opp, then can’t hit both FT’s at crucial time after making great steal. Has gifted attributes that you want in a wing, still not near finished product as is Jayson Tatum, both still making mistakes or disappearing for stretches that are costing us games. Terry Rozier doesn’t know his role, making a lot of bad plays that he should not be making, like taking it right to Robinson and eating the ball. A heady young vet should not make that play.

In this game, anyone can step up and get hot, Knicks came in losing 6 straight and earned this one, getting 
huge contributions from Burke, Hardaway, Vonleh, Kantor and Robinson killed us all game in the paint. We need to redefine our roles, last year like magic everyone gelled, this year we haven’t figured out how to put everyone in the best position to use their strengths. Even with terrible 3 point shooting first 3 quarters, had we controlled some more boards, hit our FT’s, just played a little better, we could have won. In 86 Knicks shocked us and won on Christmas Day, even that great team had a few off games. I liked the fight we showed getting the game close, but 26 point leads are hard to overcome.

COWEN

The difference between the 1986 team and this team in 2018 ................on paper we appear to be a good team,  in reality we are not that good of a team!

There is something fundamentally missing ....an intangible ..............coming back from huge deficits with the majority of your games played is not normal.  

It starts with the coaching staff and ends with the players.  Or maybe not............you know the old saying..........junk in.....junk out!

I can tell you one thing this modern game, driven by analytics, is a bunch of BULL SHXT!  Ya in theory, if you shoot this many 3's during a game you will outscore your opponent by 6.760251 points..................ya..........only if you have a team with players that can shoot consistently from the arc.  You know what Red would say..............Just Fu@*ing score..........layups, foul shots, steals, field goals, run baby run............just score!

There was a reason why Red always said, and I believe it holds true today.................you build your team from the inside out starting with the center position.    Your defense and your offense starts at the center position.  You run your offense through your center position and allow your wings and guards to become creative. We hardly do this.  The majority of our offense during a game is dribble, pass it around and shoot from the arc.  And, when you are not a good shooting team from the arc, teams sag into the paint giving you no room for a high percentage shot in the paint.

Here is our standings in the NBA for scoring in the paint

Boston - (2018) 30th - 39.8%  (Dead last) ....................(2017) 29th - 40.1% (Next to last)


Look for a small trade to break this malaise and wake players up.........perhaps signaling to Brad too, that everyone is expendable including you!

112288

112288

Yes,, The celts were ranked 29th in points in the paint last year - but note that the champ Warriors were only 22nd and the Rockets who lost in 7 games to the champs in the western conference finals, were ranked 28th. But overall the Warriors and Rockets were ranked 1-2 in scoring. Obviously their scoring from other areas more than off set their lack of scoring in the paint.

swish

IMO, we see predictable problems with this team of four small forwards and four power forwards, including an old one forced to play center along with a shooting guard trying to play point guard. If Sam were here, he'd no doubt remind us that we need a center. The gamble on Hayward has not paid off (yet) and his minutes when others were better have hurt the team. I'd trade Kyrie for good value - including to the Knicks - because even when he's on fire the team is out of sync. Brown and Tatum are confused. Is Rondo available for pocket change? Hawk

112288

Yes,, The celts were ranked 29th in points in the paint last year - but note that the champ Warriors were only 22nd and the Rockets who lost in 7 games to the champs in the western conference finals, were ranked 28th. But overall the Warriors and Rockets were ranked 1-2 in scoring. Obviously their scoring from other areas more than off set their lack of scoring in the paint.

swish

That is true ....but due to the fact that both teams have multiple and incredible 3 point shooters who have been consistent year in and year out.

So if you have those shooters you can gamble on shooting lower percentage shoots.

The Celtics do not have that fire power and yet the majority of the game is based on shooting the 3 shot.

When you do not have the cards, ya gotta fold'em and not continue to raise the ante.

112288

112288 wrote:112288

Yes,, The celts were ranked 29th in points in the paint last year - but note that the champ Warriors were only 22nd and the Rockets who lost in 7 games to the champs in the western conference finals, were ranked 28th. But overall the Warriors and Rockets were ranked 1-2 in scoring. Obviously their scoring from other areas more than off set their lack of scoring in the paint.

swish

That is true ....but due to the fact that both teams have multiple and incredible 3 point shooters who have been consistent year in and year out.

So if you have those shooters you can gamble on shooting lower percentage shoots.

The Celtics do not have that fire power and yet the majority of the game is based on shooting the 3 shot.

When you do not have the cards, ya gotta fold'em and not continue to raise the ante.

112288

   

 112288

When it comes to shooting 3's the Warriors have been in a league of their own recently. The Rockets on the other hand, at best have been mediocre over the last 3 years - 15th in 2016-17, 13th in 2017-18 and 23rd so far in 2018-19. The Celtics were 14th in 2016-17, 2ND IN 2017-18 and 18th so far in 2018-19 . If we are going to use the past as a potential predictor of the future - then should we not at least consider the 2017-18 season when it comes to rating the potential of this years group of 3 point shooters. The only question for me is - when to past judgement -  and in my opinion 18 games is way to early.

 swish

Swish,

And at what point do you pass comment...........how many games?



112288

29 games.
If we are not rolling by then, fire Brad and start tanking to get Zion. Isn't that Celtic tradition, to quit early at the first sign of trouble?

112288 wrote:Swish,

And at what point do you pass comment...........how many games?



112288

112288

What ever your comfortable with.

swish

worcester wrote:29 games.
If we are not rolling by then, fire Brad and start tanking to get Zion. Isn't that Celtic tradition, to quit early at the first sign of trouble?

That is too funny, you crack me up! I think you mixed up Celtic tradition with 26er tradition, but that was intentional in order for you to prove your point. LOL

swish wrote:

112288 wrote:112288

Yes,, The celts were ranked 29th in points in the paint last year - but note that the champ Warriors were only 22nd and the Rockets who lost in 7 games to the champs in the western conference finals, were ranked 28th. But overall the Warriors and Rockets were ranked 1-2 in scoring. Obviously their scoring from other areas more than off set their lack of scoring in the paint.

swish

That is true ....but due to the fact that both teams have multiple and incredible 3 point shooters who have been consistent year in and year out.

So if you have those shooters you can gamble on shooting lower percentage shoots.

The Celtics do not have that fire power and yet the majority of the game is based on shooting the 3 shot.

When you do not have the cards, ya gotta fold'em and not continue to raise the ante.

112288

   

 112288

When it comes to shooting 3's the Warriors have been in a league of their own recently. The Rockets on the other hand, at best have been mediocre over the last 3 years - 15th in 2016-17, 13th in 2017-18 and 23rd so far in 2018-19. The Celtics were 14th in 2016-17, 2ND IN 2017-18 and 18th so far in 2018-19 . If we are going to use the past as a potential predictor of the future - then should we not at least consider the 2017-18 season when it comes to rating the potential of this years group of 3 point shooters. The only question for me is - when to past judgement -  and in my opinion 18 games is way to early.

 swish

I wonder if the league is changing, and the analytics of 2 years ago are already becoming antiquated. The modern analytics movement was predicated on scoring efficiency, and as long as 3 pt percentages stay above 33% and 2 pt percentages stay below 50%, then the three point shot is more efficient. Of course I am ignoring pace and over-simplifying things, but that is the basic underlying assumption. This has clearly been an effective strategy the last few years as evidenced by the Warriors dominance, and even the success of Cleveland and our beloved Celtics. However, it is inevitable that defensive strategies would respond with schemes that limit 3 point effectiveness. Since no defensive scheme is perfect, the cost is giving up more 2s. I would predict that since defenses are more willing to give teams these shots, their percentages will go up while increased focus on preventing 3s will result in the percentage for 3s going down. If the 2 point shot gets much above 50% and the 3 pt percentage decreases then the analytics-based 3-point philosophy becomes flawed. A quick look at basketball-reference.com indicates a correlation between the best 2 point shooting teams and teams with the best records. Many on this board have complained about our offense's dependence on the three, and perhaps they are onto something that updated analytics supports; maybe the game has evolved such that the analytics of two years ago are already outdated, and our Celtics are currently behind the curve...

Yes Gyso. 100% intentional snd sarcastic.