The missing piece for the Celtics according to Bobby Marks of ESPN

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/missing-piece-celtics-according-bobby-213652677.html



The missing piece for the Celtics according to Bobby Marks of ESPN


Jake Levin
Tue, December 21, 2021, 1:36 PM



After beginning their careers as budding superstars on teams laden with veteran talent, Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown are now the players the Boston Celtics are attempting to build around.


Though each player is having a strong statistical season individually, the Celtics, for the second year in a row, are plodding along as a .500 team; since the start of the 2020-21 season, Boston is 52-53 in the regular season.

But assuming the C's are going to see it through with Tatum and Brown, what's the right direction for the team to go if it's serious about contending in 2021-22?

Appearing on the latest Celtics Talk Podcast with Chris Forsberg, ESPN Front Office Insider Bobby Marks said that the team has to address its issue at point guard.


"I think it's such a point guard-driven league," Marks said. "Every team -- contending team -- has a high-level guard, let's just face it."

If the Portland Trail Blazers were to decide to move on from 31-year-old superstar Damian Lillard, would that be something for the Celtics to consider?

"It'll probably cost you Jaylen Brown," Marks said of the second-leading scorer in Blazers history. "It'll cost you multiple picks, it might cost you something else."

Marks said that adding a power forward to compliment Robert Williams III would be a secondary focus for him.

Beyond that, Marks said, the Celtics need to address their overall depth.

"For me, it's do you have playoff depth? There's a difference between playoff depth and regular season depth," Marks said. "Finding veterans to accept the role coming off your bench is hard. It's really hard in this league, but that's how I look at it and kind of build that roster out."


Bob
MY NOTE:  "Second verse, same as the first." (credit to Herman's Hermits).  You need a floor leader.  Championship caliber teams have always needed a floor leader.  That's usually the point guard unless you find an exceptionally talented big like Jokic or Bird.  Smart is a good point guard but he's not elite.  It's all the other stuff he brings that endears him to us but, as valuable as all that is, it still does not relieve us of the need for a point guard.  

Giving up Jaylen for Dame?  Whoa.  Part of me says "why would I give up a 25 year old ascending star for an undersized 31 year old superstar?  Well, for the same reason that LAL gave away half their team for Anthony Davis.  For the same reason Cleveland did whatever it took to fit LeBron's return in under the salary cap.  For the same reason LAL signed 34 year old LeBron to a 4 year contract.  Because if they bring you just one more Championship that's one more Championship than you had.

And I absolutely agree with his assessment of our bench.  Just like with the Js we're focused on potential over results.  Danny with the Js, and Brad with Smart and RWill, have paid for resigning their core by having rookie contract players and reclamation projects on the bench.  In 2008 we won with veterans Eddie House, Sam Cassell, PJ Brown and James Posey coming off the bench.  Young'uns like 3rd year Tony Allen, 1st year player Leon Powe and rookie Big Baby Davis were just icing on the cake.  Our "playoff bench" is Enes and Josh.  Pritchard and Nesmith and Romeo are not playoff bench players, not yet anyway.  Those 3 players have a combined NBA experience of 3571 minutes.  To put that in perspective Marcus Smart played 3475 minutes in his first two years despite coming off the bench for 80 of those games.  NOT a lot of minutes by those three and certainly not a lot of playoff minutes.

Brad needs to fish-or-cut-bait.  He needs to either get Pritchard minutes, presumably by trading Schroder, or he needs to trade Pritchard in a package.  Same with Nesmith and Romeo.  Play them or move them.  Romeo, to be fair, is getting some decent run.  He has already played more minutes this season than he did in either of his first two seasons total. These players have marketable NBA skills and are still in the front end of their rookie contracts, which makes them very enticing fillers.


.

And here I always thought that line came from "Ghost"!! Thanks for the fun fact o' the day!!

db

dbrown4 wrote:And here I always thought that line came from "Ghost"!!  Thanks for the fun fact o' the day!!

db

dbrown,





Bob


.

Forever etched now, thank you BobH!

db

Bob you can’t trade Pritch just to trade him, he’s really coming on now.

So do we want to win one championship in14 years or build a team that can win multiple times? 2008 is a long time ago , in a galaxy far far away. Do we win a championship with Lillard, but without Jaylen Brown. To me, that's crazy talk. I don't want to break up the Jays, but , if I did , I'd ptobably keep Brown over Tatum. He's more efficient , and frankly, mote mture, in my opinion. But I digress. DON'T want to break up the Jays for Damian Lillard. Plat Pritchard more. Trade Schroeder. Maybe draft a poimt guard. Maybe bringi in the Israeli kid next year. Yams are nutritious.

So do we want to win one championship in14 years or build a team that can win multiple times? 2008 is a long time ago , in a galaxy far far away. Do we win a championship with Lillard, but without Jaylen Brown? To me, that's crazy talk. I don't want to break up the Jays, but , if I did , I'd probably keep Brown over Tatum. He's more efficient , and frankly, more mature, in my opinion. But I digress. I DON'T want to break up the Jays for Damian Lillard. Play Pritchard more. Trade Schroeder. Maybe draft a point guard. Maybe bring in the Israeli kid next year. Yams are nutritious.

Whoops. Tried to delete the first one, with all the spelling errors, but it won't go away. Sorry for the repetition.

cowens/oldschool wrote:Bob you can’t trade Pritch just to trade him, he’s really coming on now.

Cow,

This is what I wrote:  "He needs to either get Pritchard minutes, presumably by trading Schroder, or he needs to trade Pritchard in a package."

That doesn't say "trade Pritchard".  It says "get Pritchard minutes or trade him".  I am firmly in the camp of trading Schroder.  If there was a chance he could be kept for the right $ I might reconsider that but, based upon what GYSO and others are saying about our cap restrictions, that seems highly unlikely.  Therefore, trade him and, once he's gone, give Pritchard the minutes.


Bob


.

bobheckler wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:Bob you can’t trade Pritch just to trade him, he’s really coming on now.

Cow,

This is what I wrote:  "He needs to either get Pritchard minutes, presumably by trading Schroder, or he needs to trade Pritchard in a package."

That doesn't say "trade Pritchard".  It says "get Pritchard minutes or trade him".  I am firmly in the camp of trading Schroder.  If there was a chance he could be kept for the right $ I might reconsider that but, based upon what GYSO and others are saying about our cap restrictions, that seems highly unlikely.  Therefore, trade him and, once he's gone, give Pritchard the minutes.




Bob


.

Let's stick with the facts.

PP played well last year as a rookie. He also hit the that rookie wall. This year he has not had an opportunity to play much. Adding Schroeder to the team impacted PP minutes. We discussed that possibility before the season started.

I watched Schroeder and sorta liked him but he also wears on you and now I see him as a pimple on the ass of progress. That progress being more playing time for Payton Pritchard.

This is not a 2 option scenario. Maybe the Celtics move Schroeder and maybe they do not. In either case he is very unlikely to be on this team next season. Payton is in his 2nd year. If I can wait for the Grant William's of the world to learn how to be productive I can easily wait on Payton.

Ime as a rookie coach has leaned on veterans to establish himself as a coach but in the process he has been slow to recognize the development, that was already in place by Brad, needed to continue.

I do not see a big time trade deadline move. I would be pleased if we can move DS and get back a 1st rounder in the deal. In any case even if we could resign him, I would advise against it.

Our long term solution at PG has not been solved yet. And we probably could use a long athletic PF/C on our front line. The team is still dealing with CAP issues created by Danny Ainge.

I think we have more than one hole to fill.

We are a .500 team. I think we could take out every team in the East except a healthy Nets team. There is nothing that this team can do to match the Nets pure fire power on offense. Can we get and stay above .500? Yes we can.

You guys want to play PP? I do too.

So what is PP's greatest strength? Outside and open shooting.

Not breaking down the defense, scoring inside or rebounding. Defense is just passable.

What to you want him to do when he is put on the floor? Be a stationary floor spacer? Look for his shot ONLY IF the J's are not open?

Against the Cavs, PP seemed to be in rhythm. Then there was a sequence where he was open and was thinking of shooting but noticed JB sliding to get open. I could see the hesitation but he passed the ball to JB. JB missed and then PP missed his next two shots. You could see the uncertainty in his shooting.

If you play PP, will JB defer to him if both are open? Will PP be allowed to be the Patty Mills of the Celts?

Payton Pritchard is not a stand in the corner 3 point shooter and I don't believe he ever will be. He shoots the ball best wending around screens or pushing the ball up the court. I don't know what his ceiling is, but I think his floor is solid back up point guard with an exceptional outside shooting touch and Steph Curry like range. ( no I am not suggesting he could ever be SC.) Schroder has been perfectly serviceable, but , in my opinion, he is a middle of the pack guard, who neither distributes the ball particularly well, nor is a particularly efficient scorer. His presence has held back the development of guys who will, or at least may, be here long after he is gone. I sincerely hope that he can be traded for something of value at some point. Prakash was perfectly right in predicting that he would take minutes from Pritchard and Nesmith. I don't happen to think that was, or is, a good thing. JMO.

This exactly the type of player that PP could become

Will PP be allowed to be the Patty Mills of the Celts?

Now for the missing piece.

I would like to see Boston go after Dejounte Murray. The Spurs at 12-18 are not going anywhere. They need to rebuild their team. Murray would be a great addition to this team.

His salary could easily be matched (for example Josh and either Langford or Nesmith) work. The key question then is future draft picks. Also, there are other combinations of Celtics players that could be used to make the salaries match up. I think 2 first rounders could work. Competition in the West is such that the Spurs are a long way from becoming a quality team. If the Spurs are looking for a salary dump, our large TPE would work out along with the picks.

The 3 untouchables on this team for me are the Jays and RW. I do not think that Pop would take on Marcus.

If you want to fix this team fix your PG position.

+1, Rosalie. Well put.

db

First, I don't get a lot out of trying to second guess GM Stevens. If he can improve the roster with the financial resources he's got, great. But saying we NEED this or that seems kind of pointless. Yeah, we need seven or eight HOFers. Doesn't everyone? But not knowing how to do that I'll dance with who brung me for now.

Second, whatever is going on with Schroder I'm not prepared to declare him a bum, when just a couple weeks ago he was the second coming. His most recent absence was attributed to a non-Covid illness. If it was still the ankle I think they would have said so. And considering how long he was out I think it's fair to say it wasn't just a case of the sniffles. So his performance since he came back could very well just be fatigue from whatever ailed him. And, while I'm sure he's been told from the very beginning that his contract was trade bait, the constant talk of trades has got to weigh on him. Plus the way PP has been playing might be a factor as well. Whatever the reason I’m not writing him off yet. Well, except for the one and done issue. So if we can get value for him in a trade…

Third, I would be fine with a starting lineup of 2Js, RWill, Romeo and PP for the rest of the year. Marcus is 6th man of the year, and Horford, GWill, and Richardson round out the rotation. I don’t think any other lineup makes a significant difference in the way the year goes. I think Romeo and PP, along with GWill, are the near future and there’s no point in delaying the future for an extra game of two. (Nesmith needs another year to settle down.) That bench would be formidable defensively and, with a J thrown in, not too shabby offensively.

Bottom line, I like our team as is. Obviously if Schroder goes, we need another PG. If he doesn’t go, and can stomach the BU role, that’s okay too.

bobheckler wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:Bob you can’t trade Pritch just to trade him, he’s really coming on now.

Cow,

This is what I wrote:  "He needs to either get Pritchard minutes, presumably by trading Schroder, or he needs to trade Pritchard in a package."

That doesn't say "trade Pritchard".  It says "get Pritchard minutes or trade him".  I am firmly in the camp of trading Schroder.  If there was a chance he could be kept for the right $ I might reconsider that but, based upon what GYSO and others are saying about our cap restrictions, that seems highly unlikely.  Therefore, trade him and, once he's gone, give Pritchard the minutes.


Bob


.

Pritchard has looked much better here lately but I still don't think he’s earned the number of minutes that Schroder is currently averaging. I like the kid but I don't trust that he is as good as we need him to be. That very well may be coming but in my opinion its not as simple as plug and play. I hope he proves me wrong but I don’t think he’s there yet.

dboss wrote:

bobheckler wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:Bob you can’t trade Pritch just to trade him, he’s really coming on now.

Cow,

This is what I wrote:  "He needs to either get Pritchard minutes, presumably by trading Schroder, or he needs to trade Pritchard in a package."

That doesn't say "trade Pritchard".  It says "get Pritchard minutes or trade him".  I am firmly in the camp of trading Schroder.  If there was a chance he could be kept for the right $ I might reconsider that but, based upon what GYSO and others are saying about our cap restrictions, that seems highly unlikely.  Therefore, trade him and, once he's gone, give Pritchard the minutes.




Bob


.

Let's stick with the facts.

PP played well last year as a rookie.  He also hit the that rookie wall.  This year he has not had an opportunity to play much.  Adding Schroeder to the team impacted PP minutes.  We discussed that possibility before the season started.

I watched Schroeder and sorta liked him but he also wears on you and now I see him as a pimple on the ass of progress.  That progress being more playing time for Payton Pritchard.

This is not a 2 option scenario.  Maybe the Celtics move Schroeder and maybe they do not.  In either case he is very unlikely to be on this team next season.  Payton is in his 2nd year.  If I can wait for the Grant William's of the world to learn how to be productive I can easily wait on Payton.

Ime as a rookie coach has leaned on veterans to establish himself as a coach but in the process he has been slow to recognize the development, that was already in place by Brad, needed to continue.  

I do not see a big time trade deadline move.  I would be pleased if we can move DS and get back a 1st rounder in the deal.  In any case even if we could resign him, I would advise against it.

Our long term solution at PG has not been solved yet.  And we probably could use a long athletic PF/C on our front line.  The team is still dealing with CAP issues created by Danny Ainge.  

I think we have more than one hole to fill.  

We are a .500 team.  I think we could take out every team in the East except a healthy Nets team.  There is nothing that this team can do to match the Nets pure fire power on offense.  Can we get and stay above .500?  Yes we can.  

Dboss, We are a .500 team but can take out everyone in the east cept Brooklyn? What does that mean? If we’re a .500 team (which I agree we are) then the second part of your statement cannot be true.

As I said on another post, PP? Why do so many here think he’s the one to replace Schroder? PP can shoot with the best of them but what else does he do so well? Doesn’t turn it over very much. Other than that, he’s average at best IMHO. Again, I hope he proves me dead wrong.

[quote="Ktron"]

bobheckler wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:Bob you can’t trade Pritch just to trade him, he’s really coming on now.

Pritchard has looked much better here lately but I still don't think he’s earned the number of minutes that Schroder is currently averaging. I like the kid but I don't trust that he is as good as we need him to be. That very well may be coming but in my opinion its not as simple as plug and play. I hope he proves me wrong but I don’t think he’s there yet.

College and high school players earn minutes. Professional players earn paychecks. They get minutes based on what the organization needs. All of the signs are that someone will replace Schroder before next season regardless. No, PG is not plug and play. PG at the pro level requires experience. Pritchard won't get that playing behind Schroder and Smart. And he's not necessarily a lesser player than Schroder. He shoots better, and he can also penetrate and dish. And lately he looks like a better defender. Also, he doesn't turn the ball over. Keeping Schroder in the starting line up is not going to make that much difference in the season and it doesn't do anything to help next season but delay PP's development. If Pritchard isn't "there" yet, in what way is Schroder there when we know he won't be there next season?

Schroder has a burst and at times can get his shot off easily, then there’s times he bricks shots like Smart, with 2 of them bricking it the same time, is unwatchable. He always seems to turn the ball over, while he does have some good point guard attributes, he can also wear on you by his inconsistent play and poor shooting and turnovers. I’d much rather have a steady Patty Mills type and PP can be a better ball handler and distributor than Mills and just as good a shooter IMHO. PP also makes surprisingly good defensive plays and has shown a penchant for rebounding as he’s not afraid to mix it up and get his hands dirty.

atcross wrote:First, I don't get a lot out of trying to second guess GM Stevens. If he can improve the roster with the financial resources he's got, great. But saying we NEED this or that seems kind of pointless. Yeah, we need seven or eight HOFers. Doesn't everyone? But not knowing how to do that I'll dance with who brung me for now.

Second, whatever is going on with Schroder I'm not prepared to declare him a bum, when just a couple weeks ago he was the second coming. His most recent absence was attributed to a non-Covid illness. If it was still the ankle I think they would have said so. And considering how long he was out I think it's fair to say it wasn't just a case of the sniffles. So his performance since he came back could very well just be fatigue from whatever ailed him. And, while I'm sure he's been told from the very beginning that his contract was trade bait, the constant talk of trades has got to weigh on him. Plus the way PP has been playing might be a factor as well. Whatever the reason I’m not writing him off yet. Well, except for the one and done issue. So if we can get value for him in a trade…

Third, I would be fine with a starting lineup of 2Js, RWill, Romeo and PP for the rest of the year. Marcus is 6th man of the year, and Horford, GWill, and Richardson round out the rotation. I don’t think any other lineup makes a significant difference in the way the year goes. I think Romeo and PP, along with GWill, are the near future and there’s no point in delaying the future for an extra game of two. (Nesmith needs another year to settle down.) That bench would be formidable defensively and, with a J thrown in, not too shabby offensively.

Bottom line, I like our team as is. Obviously if Schroder goes, we need another PG. If he doesn’t go, and can stomach the BU role, that’s okay too.  

I actually like that starting line up, not fond of the 2 bigs line up or the Smart and Schroder, 2 brick points that can’t spread the floor line up. I like Romeo starting and think he can further grow into his wing role with his defense, athleticism and his shotmaking will improve. At his best he looks like an athletic wing defender/shot maker that can compliment the J’s, he also rebounds. With that starting line up, love our bench with Al, JRich, who adds alot both ends, GWill and ofcourse our gritty defender Smart. If that team can get and stay healthy and add chemistry with the young pieces and continued development of 2 J’s, I could see us being a dangerous team by playoff time.

atcross wrote:

Ktron wrote:

bobheckler wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:Bob you can’t trade Pritch just to trade him, he’s really coming on now.

Pritchard has looked much better here lately but I still don't think he’s earned the number of minutes that Schroder is currently averaging. I like the kid but I don't trust that he is as good as we need him to be. That very well may be coming but in my opinion its not as simple as plug and play. I hope he proves me wrong but I don’t think he’s there yet.

College and high school players earn minutes. Professional players earn paychecks. They get minutes based on what the organization needs. All of the signs are that someone will replace Schroder before next season regardless. No, PG is not plug and play. PG at the pro level requires experience. Pritchard won't get that playing behind Schroder and Smart. And he's not necessarily a lesser player than Schroder. He shoots better, and he can also penetrate and dish. And lately he looks like a better defender. Also, he doesn't turn the ball over. Keeping Schroder in the starting line up is not going to make that much difference in the season and it doesn't do anything to help next season but delay PP's development. If Pritchard isn't "there" yet, in what way is Schroder there when we know he won't be there next season?

Pros earn minutes as well as paychecks. You just don't get a spot because you’re being paid. There are more college players in basketball and football that get minutes because their relatives or parents are big boosters. I saw that first hand when my nephew played college football. He was clearly better than the running back that got most of the minutes. head coach even told him without telling him that “I have to play him”. The kids dad graduated from that school and brought money in from other sources to support the school. THATS why that kid played!

Ktron wrote:

Pros earn minutes as well as paychecks. You just don't get a spot because you’re being paid. There are more college players in basketball and football that get minutes because their relatives or parents are big boosters. I saw that first hand when my nephew played college football. He was clearly better than the running back that got most of the minutes. head coach even told him without telling him that “I have to play him”. The kids dad graduated from that school and brought money in from other sources to support the school. THATS why that kid played!

When I was in high school I made the tennis team through a little play in tournament. Then the tennis coach came to me and said he was cutting me and another kid to put a couple of bigs from the basketball team on. The bball coach wanted them to work on their hand-eye coordination and reflexes. It was then that I realized that scholastic sports was not about the students.

But you're missing my point. Professional sports teams have to look farther down the road than one season. So they don't always play their best players. And sometimes they don't play their best players together because of chemistry or because they want more talent off the bench. Sometimes they just sit better players because they're tanking. Players are expected to work hard and continue to improve. But that doesn't necessarily get them minutes. Schroder will not be here next year. So his play will not carry forward for the team. More importantly his meshing with the other players will not carry forward. It's a team, not a collection of talent. Starting Schroder might win us another game or two. Or it might not. But at the end of the season we will be exactly where we were at the beginning.

cowens/oldschool,

The operative words in your post were/are "if that team can get and stay healthy and add chemistry..."

I heard this same/similar phrase ad infinitum last year.  Ad nauseum even.  If and when it ever does happen this year, the max you will see it will be 3 games, 5 max.  So enjoy it when it does happen but I can't hear the words after a few of those games realizing the Christmas train set doesn't work anymore and that "they need time (half a season, 50 games, 3-4 seasons) to finally work together, get the kinks out and to get things right chemistry-wise."  That ship has sailed.  Here's why.

BKN still beat a hapless Lakers team with only one of their Big 3 playing fresh out of COVID protocol or whatever.  Laker Show still had 2/3rds.  But when the Lakers lose one of their guys and they implode.  5-in-a-row.  I'm about to back up the Lakers to a first round exit if they even make it...same as us so far.  Yeah, let's go with that.

I think the worst position a Celtic fan can be in is the one we are in right now.  At least if we were the worst team in the league, we'd be looking at the lottery picks and who is coming on board to save us.  And if we were smoking everyone like the 2008 team, we wouldn't care!  But mediocrity is the absolute pits for the Celtics.  Most other franchises live in mediocrity and have come to accept it as a way of life.  Not the Celtics nor the Lakers.      

db

atcross wrote:

Ktron wrote:

Pros earn minutes as well as paychecks. You just don't get a spot because you’re being paid. There are more college players in basketball and football that get minutes because their relatives or parents are big boosters. I saw that first hand when my nephew played college football. He was clearly better than the running back that got most of the minutes. head coach even told him without telling him that “I have to play him”. The kids dad graduated from that school and brought money in from other sources to support the school. THATS why that kid played!

When I was in high school I made the tennis team through a little play in tournament. Then the tennis coach came to me and said he was cutting me and another kid to put a couple of bigs from the basketball team on. The bball coach wanted them to work on their hand-eye coordination and reflexes. It was then that I realized that scholastic sports was not about the students.

But you're missing my point. Professional sports teams have to look farther down the road than one season. So they don't always play their best players. And sometimes they don't play their best players together because of chemistry or because they want more talent off the bench. Sometimes they just sit better players because they're tanking. Players are expected to work hard and continue to improve. But that doesn't necessarily get them minutes. Schroder will not be here next year. So his play will not carry forward for the team. More importantly his meshing with the other players will not carry forward. It's a team, not a collection of talent. Starting Schroder might win us another game or two. Or it might not. But at the end of the season we will be exactly where we were at the beginning.

Depends on the team. All pro teams are not looking down the road with the future in their vision. How far were we looking when we got KG and Ray? That team was built to win now. Other teams work under the same premise-win now.
Then there are the others. The teams that you’re referring to that look further down the road by building on what they have and trying to improve with the goal of being a contender for consecutive years to come. Is that the MO of the 2021-22 C’s? Looks that way.
If so its still not a license to play someone who is not ready to move into that position. Sometimes by doing this you set him/her up as well as the team for failure.
I’m willing to play PP instead of Schroder because Dennis in all likelihood is a goner. If PP gets the minutes and can’t hang then we’ll find out. It appears we agree on that point but this “tryout” has to have a short shelf life. Get it done or get out.
GS has turned it around pretty quickly. They tried some of the same tactics and when those players inserted didn’t cut it, they were gone the next year. (Kelly Obre etc.) and there are others they stuck with because they saw something in that player that told them, he can do it but WE have to make him better (Wiggens). They made him and the team better by finding the right players that compliment Wigs and their 2 other stars and Draymond. Looks like it worked- so far.
So, yeah lets give PP the ball right now and give him till the end of the season to show and prove. Do some things that tell us, yeah he’s the man. It’s just a matter of time.
Yes, I am suspect of him leading a championship team but thats just my opinion. Opinions are not facts. We’ll see.