ARE THE CELTICS BETTER WITHOUT RONDO & ALLEN?

Two wins against a top basketball team and without the services of Rondo & Allen. What gives here. Could we be in fact a better team without them? We know that Bradley gives you superior defense over Rondo and Moore also provides great defense, and better offense.
Pietrus gives you both better defense and some good offense over Ray Allen.

What do you think forum members?


112288

Does make one wonder a little. Certainly Doc should not be afraid to play Bradley, Moore and Pietrus.

Rondo is still the straw that stirs the drink. A big however is that at 40 MPG and with the compressed schedule even his young legs need rest.

Let the pups play their minutes, win or loose. IN the long run the dividends will be reaped.

beat

Would love to play poker with some of you guys. You are either sitting back, putting up your ante then folding - hand after hand. Or you are ALL IN. No slow playing. No trying to get to the flop on the cheap. Either everything is great, or burn it to the ground.

During this period, instead of finding "alternatives" to the starters - Doc has found new pieces to plug in as necessary. Knowing that if Moore gets a few more minutes, he gets into the game and his offense flows - is good to know. Having Pietrus as an alternative to Ray playing big minutes against very athletic 2's is great.

But in what alternate universe is Avery Bradley a better defender then the guy that leads the NBA in steals every season? Or Pietrus better than the all time 3 point champion?

112288 wrote:Two wins against a top basketball team and without the services of Rondo & Allen. What gives here. Could we be in fact a better team without them?

No.

Mrkleen,

Personaly I do think Bradley is a better on the ball defender than Rondo. However the only chance we've had to see him has been these last few games, with time and experience will he only get better. But it will be hard to get experience when Rondo come back and plays 40 MPG. Hopefully that can be reduced some and Bradley gets his minutes and moments.

As for stealing the ball equating to great defense that can certainly be debated. If you gamble too much and don't get it you put the rest of your team in a tough spot. Rondo appears to get the bulk of his steals more in an off the ball role comming up on a blindside double team not an out right strip of the dribbler.

As for Moore the sample on display last night was very interesting. Nice to see 16 minutes for him. Now can he do that somewhat consistantly? And will he get the chance?

RR and RA will of course start when they are able, however these 2 youngsters and Pietrus need to be used by Doc, I hope as part of the regular rotation.

Another game tonight, PP played quite a few minutes last eve will be curious as to how he and the team plays this eve. Coming back from an emotional win ??? Who knows, hopefully there will be no hole to climb out of this time either!

beat

Beat

You dont think Rondo is an elite defender in the NBA? All defensive team 2 years running speaks for itself imo.

No.

The last two games kind of prove that the Celtics are better than our record shows. In the long run (in this short season), Doc will be able to find player combinations with our current roster that can better target the opponent's weaknesses.

Likewise, the last two games may be an indication that Orlando is not as good as their record. Stan Van's offense will win some games, but as history has proven, it will not win the grand prize. Two main options, pound it down low to Howard or pass it out for jumpers doesn't show much imagination. I am really surprised that Stan Van is still in the league.

It kind of reminds me of the offense the Denver Broncos (NFL) have. It is based on Tim Tebow's "strengths" and is really something that is best played at the college level. Good luck with that next year!!

One last thing. When Big Baby jump shot hero ball is the last best option, I'll take that every game. His promise of paybacks came up short, like his jump shots!!

Mrkleen

Where did I say he (Rondo) wasn't a good defender? From the little I've seen of Bradley IMHO I think he is a better on the ball defender than Rondo is. Rondo picks his spots, Bradley seems to do it virtually every possession, certinly the ones where they take the ball out of our basket. Again I am only talking about ON THE BALL defense. Does that mean he's a better overall defensive player? of course not. Bradley needs to learn and the best way to do that is with time. And hopefully he gets introduced to Mr. Jump Shot on the other end of the floor.

We have options now I just hope Doc is confident to use them.

beat

The Celtics are NOT a better team without Rondo and Allen. I mean, c'mon...

Does Rondo gamble more than Bradley? Yes. Is Rondo a better weakside and off-the-ball defender than Bradley? Yes. Is Bradley's offensive contributions, both scoring and passing, anywhere near as good as Rondo's? Do I really need to answer that?

Can Moore shoot? Yes. Is he anywhere near as reliable and clutch as the best pure shooter in the league? Do I really need to answer that?

I'm very, very happy for Bradley and Moore. Bradley had a breakout week and Moore had, I hope, a breakout game last night, but better than Rondo and Allen?

Steamer's like Russell, Bradley is like KC Jones and Moore is like Sam Jones. I think it would do us good if we all step outside and take a big gulp of fresh air here. There's a big difference between being less afraid to put those kids in a game and comparing them to current and future HOFers, perennial all-stars and NBA legends...

bob

.

Well said Bob. On point as always.

Beat,

You make a valid point about Bradley being a very good on-ball defender, but the one caveat I'll add is that he's shown he can do that against Jameer Nelson. In this four-game stretch without Rondo, Bradley did a nice, but not stellar, job on Steve Nash, barely slowed John Wall down (27 points, 10 rebounds, seven assists), and then had two hugely impactful games against Orlando. But two great games turning Jameer Nelson into a pile of goo doesn't mean Bradley is the second coming of K.C. Jones.

Bradley's defense can have an effect on most point guards, but Nelson is tailor-made as the guy that Bradley's defense can be most effective against -- small but not quick, not a great ballhandler, not a good enough shooter to make Bradley pay with jumpers off a screen. (Point guard is Orlando's biggest weakness, and Nelson's career has been on a downward arc since the year they went to the finals.) Let's see if Bradley can create as much havoc against other point guards, especially elite ones. Even the matchup against Darren Collison tonight is interesting because, unlike Nelson, he has the speed and quickness to match Bradley.

Bradley clearly puts a lot of effort into being a constantly harassing on-ball defender while Rondo tends to pick his spots, sort of lull the opponent to sleep and then make a cat-like move to poke at the ball. Rondo is also expert at playing the passing lanes, which is where a lot steals are made. Bradley's all-out, all-the-time defensive effort is admirable, but Rondo's style is a more economical use of energy, and my guess is that Bradley will learn over time to conserve his energy and use his wits more, because that's what usually happens with experience.

As I said in the Avery thread, one thing I'd like to see is both Bradley and Rondo together for stretches during the game. I don't think they want to overdo the two-smurf lineup like Golden State, but they could be quite a defensive duo in the backcourt and learn to play off each other so that they could be even greater defensively than the sum of their considerable parts. Steals leading to transition baskets, two speedsters on the fast break instead of one, taking pressure off the old and/or big guys -- that could be a game-changing plus.

When considering 112288's question for this thread, my mind goes in the direction of how to leverage these performances against Orlando by adding what these guys do and the confidence they've built into the rotation, not replacing the guys who are out with injuries at the moment. These performances have been a gift to a team that sorely needed them, and I have confidence that Doc knows how to use it to the utmost benefit of the team.

Outside

Big credit to 112288.

One of the things that keeps this board vital is having someone who knows how to pick a good topic that generates debate. It certainly helps when the point of discussion is a timely topic and has an element of controversy.

112288 is also the moderator that faithfully creates the postgame thread.

I say he should get a big thank you from all of us for these efforts.

Thanks 112288!

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My own take on the subject is that though we are better off with Rondo and Allen, Bradley, Pietrus and Moore have used the opportunity to show that our backcourt depth is indeed the team's strength.

Pietrus is the oldest of the bunch and about to turn 30, the other two fulfill the wishes of those of us crying "play the kids" in a big way. Any or all of these three could give us depth or maybe eventual starters in the long run, or provide us bargaining chips along the way. They've picked a good time to come up big, now let's hope they can maintain the pace if they continue to get minutes.

Outside

I did say the sample on Bradley is small. Wall and Nash, the effort was there, but just like any player he needs time to learn. As for the rest of what you said it is basically what I said but said a whole lot better.

Bradley is 21, lots of learning to do.

Ditto the smurf backcourt for short stints. Would be like JABA for the Yankees a few years back with all the bugs swarming around his sweaty head.

Probably the TITLE of this tread should be adjusted. Rather than better without them we can be pretty good without them.

beat

Thanks NY Celt,

Oh by the way the check is in the mail!

112288

112288 wrote:Thanks NY Celt,

Oh by the way the check is in the mail!

112288

The pre-agreed 10% to my agent and 10% rebate to your account?

beat wrote:Ditto the smurf backcourt for short stints. Would be like JABA for the Yankees a few years back with all the bugs swarming around his sweaty head.

That's a great image. Thanks for the smile.

For me, one of the benefits of the last 3 games, has been to illustrate that a teams success need not be tied to the number of assist put on the board by its point guard. Pierce's last 3 games remind me of the type of performances that Scotty Pippen would put on as he acted as a versatile shot maker, playmaker and rebounder for those great Bulls team of the 90's.
Swish

maybe we can look at things a bit diffrently.. maybe instead of having no Ray and No Rondo, and thinking maybe we'll be better off than them, we could do something a wee bit diffrent..

we've got between today and april 26th 49 more games to play. That folks is a lot. Four of our starters are well over 30. Doc has for years "talked" about keeping the guys minutes down. Long minutes on tired bodies helps to lead to injuries.

KG's injury in 09 likely preveneted us from repeating as champs.
Perkins injury in 10 allowed the lakers to win #16
Rondo's injury on 11 sure didnt help us VS the Heat, nevermind shaq and J'ON and everyone else who was less than 100%

lets say that Moore and Bradley have shown us what they can/could do regulerly if given the chance. Is Bradley a better player than Rondo? No. Hell.. No. Is Moore better than Ray Allen? One should be b**ch slapped for even raising the question.

If we've seen what the two can do, lets not rush to make a deal to send Rondo and Ray Allen off for Dwight Howard.. (ummm... well, no, lets keep on tract) Lets look at things a bit diffrently. Doc has said all along he likes what we have, Ainge has said the same thing.

maybe Bradley and Moore have shown us the degree of depth we do have.

Maybe now Doc wont feel we HAVE to have Rondo out on the floor 40 minutes a game (actauly avereging 36 and change) What if we can now afford to play Rondo 30-35 minutes a night? Prehaps sometime seven less? Maybe Bradley & some Dooling can actauly allow Rondo to keep fresh for the remainder of the season.. you know a certian Rose is putting in 37 minutes a game. Come playoffs wouldnt it be great if Rondo was the MUCH fresher of the two, and less likely to have been carring any nagging season injuries?

Ray Allen is playing just over 32 minutes a game.. after what we've seen from Moore/ Daneils/Peitrus - maybe we could find a bit more time to rest Ray and let these guys get more minutes- even Sasha perhaps? In games like our first VS Orlando wouldnt it be wonderfull if Ray could enjoy the 4th from the bench? Imagine how nice it would be to have Ray's legs nice and fresh come playoff time.

Wilcox and Bass, especialy Bass have shown us that though we lack size, we do have a degree of depth at the 4/5 positions.. perhaps enuff that if Steisma could give us a bit of what he started to in the first few games that, heck we could give J'On time off to let his frequent cases of injury fully heal, and use him sparingly threw the remainder of the season when he is well, just enough to keep the rust off.

Id really, really like to see J'ON be able to give us 25-30 minutes when it matters most, in the playoffs.

Giving our older guys rest now, allowing them to be in the best possible shape for the playoffs is our only shot at #18 this season. if KG, Paul, JON Ray and Rondo average 35+ a game, #18 will not happen, not this season.

Last night KG called the game "a bar fight" If this era is to end with #18, we could conceivably have 28 more of those this summer. We've got to win 16 of those to win the title, I like our odds playing fresh veterns then more instead of more now.

NYCelt wrote:Big credit to 112288.

One of the things that keeps this board vital is having someone who knows how to pick a good topic that generates debate. It certainly helps when the point of discussion is a timely topic and has an element of controversy.

112288 is also the moderator that faithfully creates the postgame thread.

I say he should get a big thank you from all of us for these efforts.

Thanks 112288!

------------------------------------------------------------------

My own take on the subject is that though we are better off with Rondo and Allen, Bradley, Pietrus and Moore have used the opportunity to show that our backcourt depth is indeed the team's strength.

Pietrus is the oldest of the bunch and about to turn 30, the other two fulfill the wishes of those of us crying "play the kids" in a big way. Any or all of these three could give us depth or maybe eventual starters in the long run, or provide us bargaining chips along the way. They've picked a good time to come up big, now let's hope they can maintain the pace if they continue to get minutes.

I agree wholeheartedly. Thanks 112288!!!

bob

.

Thanks Bob!

112288

BobH,

In case you referring to my mentions of Sam and K.C., you should know I'm not dumb enough to make premature comparisons of two neophytes with two of my most admired players ever! It's just that I could see the roles of E'Twaun and Avery potentially becoming similar to the roles into which Sam and K.C. were thrust when they first entered the rotation. High-energy disruption just at the time when the opponent's starters are tiring or, even better, against benches that could very well lose their poise under the onslaught of these two Energizer Bunnies. A few easy baskets to keep the starters from having to shoulder the huge majority of the scoring load.

I sort of look at Avery as pretty much a one-trick pony, focusing primarily on driving opponents crazy. In E'Twaun's case, I'm seeing a much more complete, polished, savvy player in the making as a combo guard. (Before the stats from last night's game were added to the record, I checked and found that E'Twaun ranked third on the team—just slightly behind Paul Pierce—in terms of assists per 36 minutes.) He seems like the kind of player who has the rare ability to think a move or two ahead of the action; and, even at his young age, he doesn't make a lot of mistakes. I do think he's a rhythm shooter just like Ray, and he can get rid of the ball pretty quickly. I realized, at the end of last night's game, I was still waiting for one of his threes to hit the rim.

I'm getting a kick out of the talk about whether the Celtics might be better off without Rondo—a potential team leader for years to come. Ray could be a different matter, not just in terms of age, but in terms of style.

Ray typically has to spend a lot of energy making all those curls, and they just haven't been effective lately. I don't believe it's anything he's doing wrong but, rather, the lack of good solid picks to slow down his defenders. And I think that, regardless of how well-conditioned he is, it may be starting to affect his defense. In no way do I feel the Celtics would be better off without Ray; but, if E'Twaun can build on his recent emergence, I could see him eating somewhat into Ray's minutes. And, of course, none of us know whether or not Ray might be a lame duck in the organization.

I believe that Avery may always need someone like Pierce or maybe E'Twaun to orchestrate the offense when he's on the floor. So I won't be at all surprised if Avery's minutes fluctuate with a whole lot of variables, including who else is available. But I'll be disappointed if Moore doesn't get increasing minutes, if for no other reason that Ray may not be around much longer.

I don't know why people are talking about Pietrus as a backup for Ray. I think Pietrus is primarily a natural backup for Pierce, although I realize injuries can do strange things to rotations.

Anyway, it's been a fun week so far. And it's heartening to think that perhaps the Celtics aren't so far behind as some people might think in coming to grips with what looks like the general speeding up of the NBA.

Sam

NO

Hey really really great thread....just realized we have alot of depth even without Jeff Green and didn't Red invent matching imperfect parts in an effective way to take advantage of their strengths? well kudos to Doc for getting this much out of this young backcourt that is growing before our eyes.

and if the team is better, its not because of the young guns starting in the backcourt, its because of the wily starting SF who has taken over more point forward duties, bringing the ball up court himself alot and carrying the team on his back also as a decoy creating a double team as he sets up others.

What Moore and Bradley do against the opposition are just incredible.

They throw off the offensive timing and they drain away valuable seconds off of the clock to where their opponent now has 12 - 15 seconds left to operate. That is the real key.

The opposition is now looking over their shoulder to see if one of these guys are sneaking up from behind. You got to love it!

112288

Thank's 112288 for the topic.

It seems to me that many posters have not read it accurately- it does not pose the question of whether Bradley and Moore are better players than Ray and Rondo - it asks if the Celtics are better without Ray and Rondo i.e. do they play better as a team?

Well, they have just won 4 games in a row including two back to back. Of course there are many other variables involved. However what has been most noticeable is that the team "chemistry", of which Sam writes so often, has been phenomenal. If that changes for the worse with Rondo and Ray's return what other conclusion can be made?

I'm reserving judgment until I've seem a few more games. The ideal situation would be if Rondo and Ray meld in with the new guys and we go on to the finals. However has anyone noticed that Paul Pierce has been a different player since Rondo went down? I haven't seen him smiling and laughing so much as in the last few games. Perhaps he's not yet willing to accept that the Celtics are Rondo's team, perhaps he sees the Celtics as still being his team.