WHAT IF THE CELTICS DON’T MAKE A MOVE? - INTERESTING TAKE

The Celtics need someone a whole lot smarter than Ainge to fix the current situation. The circumstances surrounding the Celtics would challange Red, rest his soul. When I made my previous comment, I wasn't suggesting the C's tank. There will be enough losses letting nature take its course. It's hard getting free agents in their prime to play in Boston. Draft picks, high ones give the Celts a chance to build around Rondo. Garnett, Pierce, & Allen should be allowed to ride off into the sunset and the team's management should be able to make use of the expiring contracts. The year Boston was supposed to get Duncan, and wound up with Pierce I think was '98. Who is to say that this year, if we get some type of lottery pick that maybe fate will smile on the C's with Anthony Davis, and a high second round pick of Henry Sims. Young legs and athleticism give the Celts a chance to win until team cohesiveness & rhythm develops. I'd ratgher take 2 years of downtime than wait like we all did from 1993-2007, and 1986-2008 for another title.

MD!

Matty wrote,

" . . . after a nice preformance from Johnson, Doc said this: "“I guess giving him more time is good. I don’t know why we would think that is good. He’s a good player, but you don’t want to force anybody into minutes. I don’t ever believe that’s good for a guy. The minutes he earns are what he should play all of the time, not the minutes that are there.”"

If that quote is an accurate description of how Doc feels about playing young guys, I have one question: what the hell is he thinking? "I guess giving him more time is good. I don't know why we would think that is good. . . "

Huh? He doesn't know why. That sounds hollow and self-deceitful. If Johnson is playing well, why wouldn't it be good for him to be out there? He's getting experience and confidence. He's helping the team.

What Doc did to Stiemsma destroyed the guy's confidence. This is a young man who fought his way onto the team after a few years in the minors and, when he got playing time, he excelled. For a few days, he was the toast of the town. Then, O'Neil came back and Stiemsma sat.

Apparently, in Doc's mind, Stiemsma didn't earn any minutes by his stellar play in those few games. It isn't even fair to the team that Stiemsma sat. He was giving the team energy and toughness that it lacked.

After the way Stiemsma played, sitting him was completely unjustified unless the coach has an agenda that includes a phobia against playing unproven players. If so, it would make a limited amount of sense - if Stiemsma wasn't producing and had obvious deficiencies.

But if an unproven player is producing and has earned playing time, then he should play the minutes he's earned. If he sits, like Stiemsma did, even though he played well, and was bringing enthusiasm and a solid inside presence, then there is something seriously wrong with the coach's approach.

". . . The minutes he earns are what he should play all of the time, not the minutes that are there.” This last part of the quote shows how spectacularly muddleheaded Doc's approach has become.

It makes me wonder what Doc would have done with Jeremy Lin, if the kid had signed with the Celtics. Most likely, Lin never would have played a minute. If he did, and put in such sensational performances, then went to Miami and got outclassed like he just did, Doc would've sat him next to Stiemsma for the rest of the season, saying, 'I don't know what good it would do to play him.'

MD

Things are so much more complicated than when Red was around. To blame Ainge is sort of an easy out IMHO. If not for Ainge manuevering to aquire KG and RA we would not have gotten a championship in 08 and lets not overlook that we quite easily could have had 3 if not for a KG injury or a Perk blown out knee. I think we all knew in 08 the window for this bunch would be somewhat brief and now it sure appears to be closed.

And again the injuries, can you realy believe Ainge is to fault for those?
They happen. If we were healthy would this be an issue?

SO who out there is smarter?? Do any prospective GM's have medical degrees or crystal balls?

Personally I have no problem with cutting DA some slack.

Given the limitations the league imposes with trades, things Red never had to deal with.

And as I said in another thread the draft with the exception of very few players is a total crap shoot.

beat

Doc's strange, duplicitous and obfuscating comments about playing time for Johnson gave me a sudden hunger for unarmed truth. Where better to go than Buddha and Samuel Clemens?

"There are three things that cannot remain hidden: the sun, the moon and the truth."
Buddha

"It's no wonder that truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense. "
Mark Twain

You add a healthy and fully functioning Jeff Green to this team, and they have 5 or 6 more wins at this point...and they are in 4th or 5th position in the East....get to avoid Miami and Chicago in the first round and probably make it to the Eastern Conference finals.

Just a few things fall in and out of place and the whole picture looks different.

I really expected a more calm, measured, mature response from this board....this isnt a place filled with teenagers - this is a board full of long time fans who know the score by now. Very surprised and disappointed to see people turning on Doc and DA.

Ainge was gifted KG by his friend McHale. As far as his playing days he was carried by four hall of famers: Bird, Parrish, McHale, & DJ. Gerald Henderson could have done what Ainge did as a player & more in that set up.

MD!

Rick

I love Mark Twain!

Visited his house 2X in Hartford Ct. Have a book on his quotes.

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Rich

At a sad time in his life, Clemens jumped on a steamship and traveled around the world. Can you imagine accompanying him on his voyages? Or even just encountering him in Greece or Egypt. Dang!

For the record, I'll take Doc and Danny over anyone out there with the exception of the Hick from French Lick.

mrkleen09 wrote:You add a healthy and fully functioning Jeff Green to this team, and they have 5 or 6 more wins at this point...and they are in 4th or 5th position in the East....get to avoid Miami and Chicago in the first round and probably make it to the Eastern Conference finals.

Just a few things fall in and out of place and the whole picture looks different.

I really expected a more calm, measured, mature response from this board....this isnt a place filled with teenagers - this is a board full of long time fans who know the score by now. Very surprised and disappointed to see people turning on Doc and DA.

Kleen,

I agree with you in defending Danny Ainge.

1) They were close to winning 3 championships.
2) Ainge has tried aggressively to make Boston better in trades with Rondo. (Chris Paul).
3) It's not his fault that Indiana was able to offer David West $1m more per year then Boston was able to.
4) Due to salary cap issues Boston could not replace Jeff Green.
5) Boston does have older players but they have had an unusual number of injuries even from younger players over the last 2 years.

I think Boston should make every effort to trade Ray Allen and Garnett (which will be harder).
Ray to Indiana for (2) 2nd round picks is reasonable.
Why would Boston do this? It would save them about $12m this season.
Since the luxury tax is determined on the season ending salaries, they could save $10m in luxury tax and about $2m in salary.
Boston can resign Ray after the season is over.

I don't think keeping Ray and or KG will make Boston a serious threat to Miami or Chicago this season.

From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Draft_Lottery

Process

The lottery is normally held during either the third or fourth week of May. The 2011 draft lottery was held on May 17. The Cleveland Cavaliers, Minnesota Timberwolves, and Utah Jazz won the first through third picks, respectively. The Cavaliers had two separate lottery picks in that draft; the pick that was drawn first was acquired in a trade with the Los Angeles Clippers.

To determine the winner, fourteen ping pong balls numbered 1–14 are placed in a standard lottery machine and four balls are randomly selected from the lot. Just as in most traditional lotteries, the order in which the numbers are drawn is not important. That is, 1-2-3-4 is considered to be the same as 4-3-2-1. So although there is a total of 24 (4!) orders in which the balls numbered 1-2-3-4 can be picked, they are all treated as the same outcome. In doing this, the permutation of 4 balls from 14 becomes the combination of 4 balls from 14. That is, the total of 24,024 (14! / 10!, or 14x13x12x11) possible permutations is reduced by a factor of 24, to 1,001 combinations (or 14! / (10! x 4!)). Of these, 1 outcome is disregarded and 1,000 outcomes are distributed among the 14 non-playoff NBA teams. The combination 11-12-13-14 (in any order that those numbers are drawn) is not assigned and it is ignored if drawn; this has never occurred in practice.

In the event a lottery pick is traded to another team, the record of the original team (whose pick it was before the trade) still determines eligibility for the lottery, and assignment of chances.

As of 2008, with 30 NBA teams, 16 qualify for the playoffs and the remaining 14 teams are entered in the draft lottery. These 14 teams are ranked in reverse order of their regular season record and are assigned the following number of chances

1. 250 combinations, 25.0% chance of receiving the #1 pick
   
2. 199 combinations, 19.9% chance
   
3. 156 combinations, 15.6% chance
   
4. 119 combinations, 11.9% chance
   
5. 88 combinations, 8.8% chance
   
6. 63 combinations, 6.3% chance
   
7. 43 combinations, 4.3% chance
   
8. 28 combinations, 2.8% chance
   
9. 17 combinations, 1.7% chance
   
10. 11 combinations, 1.1% chance
    
11. 8 combinations, 0.8% chance
    
12. 7 combinations, 0.7% chance
    
13. 6 combinations, 0.6% chance
    
14. 5 combinations, 0.5% chance
    

TJ,

Not quite as simple as you suggested. Perhaps that was one of the old methods, but now, it takes a BS in math to figure it out. (LOL)

One thing to remember is that the lottery chooses only the first three positions in the upcoming draft. Once those three are chosen, the rest of the non-playoff teams pick in the order of their last year's record.

If the Celtics fall into the lottery and end up being the 11-14th team, the odds of winning any of the top three picks are less that 1.2%, not very encouraging, not at all.

So, which door do we choose;

Door #1: A 1% chance of winning one of the top 3 picks in the next lottery. Lose the lottery and pick in the low teens.

Door #2: Get healthy, get into the playoffs with the current roster and give it a whirl. A chance at a title and pick in the high teens.

I chose Door #2, Anything is possible!!!

It is now clear that the Celtics have almost no chance of winning the 2012 NBA title, unless the basketball world spins off its axis entirely. The Celtics are more likely to win a playoff game or two than an entire series.

Really? Elrod doesn't remember history.

MDCelticsFan wrote:Ainge was gifted KG by his friend McHale. As far as his playing days he was carried by four hall of famers: Bird, Parrish, McHale, & DJ. Gerald Henderson could have done what Ainge did as a player & more in that set up.

MD!

MD

what the heck does Bird McHale and Parish have to do with DA a GM.

As far as gifted we gave up quite a bit to Minn to get KG. He wasn't free.

A gift inferes that nothing was done in return.
Al Jefferson, Ryan Gomes, Sebastian Telfair, Gerald Green, Theo Ratliff, cash considerations, Boston's 2009 first-round draft pick (top 3 protected) and the 2009 first-round pick Minnesota had traded to Boston in the Ricky Davis-Wally Szczerbiak trade of 2006. The 7-for-1 deal constitutes the largest number of players traded for a single player in league history.


So that was a gift? What are you smoking.

Bottom line is none of us are happy with the situation. But so much of this (injuries) is beyond anyones control.

beat

MDCelticsFan wrote:Ainge was gifted KG by his friend McHale. As far as his playing days he was carried by four hall of famers: Bird, Parrish, McHale, & DJ. Gerald Henderson could have done what Ainge did as a player & more in that set up.

MD!

MD,

I don't see the point in bringing up the discussion that Ainge was carried by 4 HOFer's.
Nobody ever viewed Ainge as a great player.
He did good in the role that he was asked to do.
Not everybody can be a hall of famer.

gyso,

Thanks for the clarification.
I am pretty sure that is how they used to handle the lottery.
They must have changed the process at some point.

Thanks.

As I remember, Danny tried to get KG from McHale BEFORE the Ray Allen deal, KG turned the deal down, and the deal died McHale notwithstanding. Then Danny gave up West (whom we got back years later and more seasoned), Wally (no loss there; glad to be rid of him and his salary) and the #5 draft pick (who turned out to be Jeff Green, whom we got years later and more seasoned) for Ray Allen. After that deal, KG approved the trade which, as has been pointed out by Beat, was not free. We gave up a lot of players for him and, as I once-again try to remember, was boo-hooed by a lot of people (perhaps even some on this board?) because Danny "traded away our future" with Jefferson and Gomes.

Who wouldn't make those two trades again? Who wouldn't trade, what netted out to, Wally-for-Ray Allen? Which insider "bailed out" Danny on the Ray Allen deal? Who wouldn't trade Al Jefferson (who, despite his promise and potential, has NEVER made an all-star team, in either conference), Ryan Gomes (a very nice complementary player, but hardly a key player), Sebastian Telfair (a classic underachiever and, more significantly, toxic locker room presence) and Gerald Green ("runs like a deer, jumps like a deer and thinks like a deer", currently pogo-ing his career away in Russia) for Kevin Garnett?

Didn't Danny, knowing that KG wanted another all-star before he'd approve the trade, go out and get another all-star?

In the final analysis, after the dust settles and the hysteria subsided, the Boston Celtics, under the management of Danny Ainge:

1. Won a championship after a extremely painful and long drought
2. Come close in at least 2 out of the other 4 years. Injuries, as much as anything, undermining the others.
3. Gave up Wally, Jefferson, Gomes, Telfair, Perk, Eddie House, JR Giddens and Bill Walker (plus a few spare parts like Gerald Green) for KG and Ray Allen. Two perennial all-stars and championship starters for 2 middling starters (would Gomes really start on any team except a bad one?) and a bunch of benchers (or bygones like Giddens and Green). I do not consider West and Green in these trades since we ended up with them anyway. I am not considering Krstic, since he's gone due to the lockout and not because of Danny, but if he comes back then he goes on the + side of the ledger too.

If you could do this all over, would anybody NOT do #3? I realize the Perk trade still rankles some people, but the Green medical issue and Krstic's departure due to the lockout are not something Danny can be held responsible for anymore than he or Doc can be held responsible for Perk blowing out his knee in game 6. None of those were predictable and, therefore, manageable.

Let's also keep in mind that Doc's playbook is NOT simple. It is a very complex playbook, built off of Pat Riley's playbook (whom Doc played for in NY). Just about every new player struggles with it. It is remarkable, and a testament to the basketball IQs of KG and Ray Allen, they were able to assimilate in their first year with Doc. Yet another reason why they are going into the HOF, since basketball at this level is much more mental than at the college level. It should not be surprising, therefore, that newbies like JJJ, Moore and Steamer struggle (and, therefore, sit a lot and watch). It should not be surprising that a one-and-doner, like Bradley was at Texas, should have sat a lot last year and watched (or get sent to Maine so he could get the floor time he needed). And didn't Danny do a good job of drafting Bradley, even though he really didn't have much college game film to base his opinion on?

Danny makes mistakes, as does Doc. He also has pulled off some coups. Remember Leon Powe? He was a second round draft pick by Denver, that Danny got for a song. Do you like Brandon Bass? We got him in a trade with Orlando for Mr. Trick-or-Treat Big Baby, who was a #35 pick by the Seattle Supersonics. Rondo was a late first round pick by Phoenix that Danny got for a song. Who "gifted" those steals to Danny? Ask any player who has ever played for Doc, except for Davis, and they sing his praises from the rooftops and right now I don't think Davis' opinion is very highly valued.

We're all frustrated because we're not playing and winning the way we want/hope to. I got it. I express my frustrations too, on the Post-Game threads, all the time but a circular firing squad for things nobody at the GM and coaching levels have control over, like injuries and lockouts and rookies not playing with the consistency of veterans, is not fair.

bob


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Hi,
I don't know what will happen with the team but vaulters are here already.


AK

Ron Borges knows about as much about basketball, as a bull know about milk.

Give me a break...guy is nothing but a loud mouth, fire stoker.

mrkleen09 wrote:Ron Borges knows about as much about basketball, as a bull know about milk.

Give me a break...guy is nothing but a loud mouth, fire stoker.

I agree. Most of his arguments sounded like the troll-work on BDN. Haters gotta hate.

The ignorant are afraid to betray surprise or admiration...they think it ill manners.
- Notebook, 1883 - Mark Twain

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“Without Freedom of thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of speech” - Ben Franklin.

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112288:

All I want is for the Celtics to get R E S P E C T.--Aretha Franklin-1967!

MD!

If the celtics plan to bring the big three back next year they should stand pat. If not they should leverage their value now before it is too late.

dboss

We do not need respect from anyone. We have not received any in the past so why start now!

While other teams seek to make the playoffs, the Celtics seek Championships.

Yes I root hard for the Celtics game in and game out, ask my wife when they lose, but you need a degree of sobriety to understand that the Celtics have less the a 10% chance of going to the finals no less winning it all. I do not like those odds. Las Vegas odds (Wynn) have them at 25/1.

We are weak at center, we are weak at offense and defensive rebounding, we have the lowest scoring average since 1953. Are you going to win a Championship with those statistics? I do not think so.

For a win of the finals, all the planets have to line up, call it a "Perfect Storm" would have to happen. Has it happen in the past, Yes! 1969 Mets! 1969 NY Jets!

Do I wish it would happen with the Celtics this year......Yes, but I can live with some weaking of the roster to strengthen our roster for next year and yet still make the playoffs and have some fun watching the birth of a new team. That is why Danny Ainge traded Perkins. To sit idle is to wither on the vine. Danny will never make that mistake again!


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Okay, class. Sit up straight, fold your hands on your desks, and repeat after me....

Recent Celtics performances are not indications of what this team will be at playoff time. Stop snickering, Johnny in the back row. Once more, all together now. Recent Celtics performances are not indications of what this team will be at playoff time.

This was a recorded message, first issued two years ago and dusted off again last season.

Okay, Johnny, get out and stand in the corridor outside the door until I come for you. And no peeing in the water bubbler.

Prof. Sam

Sam:

Peeing in the water bubbler-too funny! You must have watched Robert Wuhl as Nubaum Turk in The Hollywood Knights. Only he peed in the punch bowl at the High School prom!

MD!

MDCelticsFan wrote:Sam:

Peeing in the water bubbler-too funny! You must have watched Robert Wuhl as Nubaum Turk in The Hollywood Knights. Only he peed in the punch bowl at the High School prom!

MD!

MD,

I loved that movie!

So many sophomoric, scatalogical jokes. It was enough to keep me in stitches for hours.

"Yeah, I thought that punch had a bit of a wang to it..."

Volare (Pfft!), Whoa oh. Encantate (Pfft!), whoa oh oh oh!

bob

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