Time for a Poll: Does Rondo Stay or Go?

112288

not saying Red never said that about Russell but he did say it about Bird

source
http://www.onlinebasketballbetting.net/tag/walking/
gotta scroll down near the bottom to see the quote

here is another peice with the same quote (last one listed) below


http://www.4sportboston.com/2010/03/if-only-larry-bird-was-walking-through-that-door/

Some Larry Legend quotes for thought:
The Larry Bird: A Basketball Legend is a must have for any Celtics fan. It is filled not only with great highlights, but some memorable quotes. Here are just a few:

“Larry would make a bounce pass behind the back on the break and you
would say to yourself where is that ball going.” – M.L. Carr

“He’d do things out there that would just leave you shaking your head and smiling.” – Chris Ford

“He’s so intelligent, he’s got eyes all around his head.” – Johnny Most

“Bird, strips it, tips it, yeah.” – Mike Gorman

“Larry always said ‘I want it,’ besides everyone in the building knew who
it was going to anyway.” – Robert Parish

“And I have been very blessed, having coached some of the greatest that have ever played the game. But if I had to start a team today, the greatest player and the one guy I would take would be Larry Bird.” – Red Auerbach

beat

112288

Again this was said at Bird's retirement. I'm sure with the emotions of the evening and the moment he said what he said about Bird.

BUT remove him from that place and time and, I tend to agree that IF he were in a schoolyard and coaching a pickup game and had the choice between Russ and Bird for the first pick......... he picks Russ.

beat

Actually, Red said he'd pick Russell and then would trade for Bird. It's not clear whether he meant he'd trade Russell for Bird or would trade other players for Bird so he'd have both Russ and Bird on his team. Knowing Red, I assume he meant the latter because there's no way on God's green earth that Red would ever have given the most remote appearance of slighting the player most responsible for solidifying Red's legacy with eight straight championships and 11 in 13 seasons.

Here's the link:

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/boston/halloffame/jersey?id=6857227

To BobH: I would probably care as much as anybody on or off this board whether Rondo stayed or went. But my "caring" would be devoted to focusing on what the ramifications would be for the team (including other trades that might transpire) if he remained versus the ramifications if he should leave (including what the Celtics would get in return). Not having any clue about those ramifications, I would feel inadequate to cast an opinion and am content to watch Danny do his job. However, that's no reason why others should refrain from having the fun of conjecture, which is why I started the thread.

Sam

This is Red being Red.

A RED'ISM AT ITS BEST.

Who ever is the apple of Red's eye at the moment. Therefore we are all correct in what we stated!

112288

Sam

I will watch larry's retirement party when I get the chance.

I am virtually 100% certain that is the quote he said near the end of his talk that evening during the cerimonies

beat

Beat,

There's every possibility that Red offered more than one opinion on the subject. As usual, I would be extremely careful in examining the precise words he uttered. And his various opinions might even have seemed to conflict with one another because Red could be very diplomatic if he wished—especially given the emotional content of a retirement evening.

Sam

Sam

I agree completely. Red was what he was.

I do think as I mentioned above, what he said was said at Bird's retirement. And given the atmosphere and emotion of the evening it was what it was.

beat

Splitting hairs is what it is. Ones choice probably comes down to their favorite player during their younger years. Youth leaves that kind of impression.
Swish

Swish,

Actually, it's not "splitting hairs" as much as searching for, and discussing, evidence. Where does "one's choice" come into the picture in this conversation? What is it that's being chosen, as distinct from debating the factual details of a statement made by someone who's not on this board and is not even alive?

Memories from youth have precisely zero to do with a discussion of comments that were made during one's middle or later years.

Attempting to sidetrack the conversation into something it isn't (for example, an implied comparison of two players) would come closer to an addled perspective on a thread such as this.

To return to the subject of this thread, it's interesting to observe that the sentiment is consistently running about 3 to 1 in favor of Rondo's staying.

Because some people have suggested that they'd like to change their votes, I've enabled that option.

Sam

Cousy just offered his opinion on the Rondo trade rumors. I think The Cooz would vote "stay".

“I’m out of the loop, but boy, unless he’s a serial killer on the side I wouldn’t let this kid go,” Cousy said by phone. “I don’t know where you’d find a better point guard.”

The 83-year-old Hall of Famer conceded that Rondo, a three-time All-Star, is a poor perimeter shooter who struggles from the foul line, but said, “He overcomes that because he’s such a strong penetrator and a good finisher. He sees the floor well, he’s a force on both backboards, and he’s an excellent defender for that position. I think he touches all the bases.”

Cousy doesn’t view the playmaker as Boston’s most pressing concern, not with the advanced age of the team’s Big Three -- Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce and Ray Allen -- threatening to keep the Celtics from legitimate title contention.

“They’re in the middle,” Cousy said, “and the worst place to finish in this league is in the middle. ... I don’t see how trading Rondo would help. Good young point guards are very hard to find.”

bob

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"I've eaten a lot of pizza, but the best pizza I've ever eaten was from Regina's in the North End." - Red Auerbach

He didn't ever say that, but imagine the ad campaign Regina's could build on that one.

I didn't respond to the poll. My initial response was "Please shoot me if I have to listen to more trade rumors," which wasn't one of the options, but I'm curious if anyone's opinion changed as a result of Rondo's great game against the Knicks.

Bob Ryan's take is that the Knick game shows what Rondo can do and needs to do more consistently, but that regardless the Celtics can't trade him.

Jackie MacMullen pointed out that, of Rondo's 17 triple-doubles, 13 have been on nationally televised games. Interesting observation.

And to quell some errant initial reporting, Rondo isn't the first player since Oscar and Wilt to have a 15-15-15 game. I did a search with the basketball-reference.com player game finder, which only searches back to the 1985-86 season, and found seven such games -- three by Jason Kidd, two by Magic Johnson, and one by Larry Bird. None of them were specifically 17-18-20, but then his doesn't specifically match others on the list, such as Larry's 30-point, 17-rebound, 17-assist game. But that shouldn't diminish the fact that Rondo is the only guy in the league today who can post numbers like that.

Outside

Outside

this was what 112288 pointed out


According to Elias Sports Bureau, Rondo is only the third player in NBA history with at least 15 points, 20 assists and 15 rebounds in a game (Wilt Chamberlain and Oscar Robertson are the others).


Obviously getting 20 assists is the tough one of the three.

beat

Beat,

When I mentioned the "errant initial reports," I was referring to what I heard on (I think) ESPN or ABC's broadcast, not 112288's post. I should've been more specific. Thanks for pointing that out.

And I'll point out what a nice job I did distracting attention from my main point, which was to ask if anyone's opinion changed based on Rondo's performance in the Knick game.

Outside

I guess what it boils down to for Danny, does he need a super star in another position equal to Rondo's talent. If yes and he wants to build the new team from the strength of another position, Danny may well trade Rondo.

It's Danny's call.

112288

Outside,

To get to your original question, my opinion hasn't changed due to the Knicks game; I think he stays.

I have waffled, and wildly so, on my belief that he could be dealt based on my own perceived validity of some of the reports. The more I read however, the more I'm convinced that the vast majority of the sources claiming to have knowledge are just bull.

Any player is tradeable, some are just less likely to be dealt. The more you look at what it takes to build a team and the fact that Rondo delivers a highly developed skill set that offsets his few weaknesses, the more he looks like a long-term Celtic. When you come down to it, except for chucking a ball at a ref, he's done nothing to warrant his departure. As far as target practice on a zebra goes; who hasn't wanted to do that?

I think as Boston fans we can safely turn our attention elsewhere; like how's Jeff Green doing or will the weather be nice for the St. Patrick's day parade.

Regards

The St. Patrick's Day parade? I attended many in my youth, but darn if I can't remember a thing about any of them......

bobc33 wrote:The St. Patrick's Day parade? I attended many in my youth, but darn if I can't remember a thing about any of them......

I'm sure friends will tell you that you had a good time.

I voted "Rondo goes" because he seems to play better when trade rumors abound. I can only hope he reads about them.

Sportswriters of the world, keep those trade rumors flying!

NYCelt wrote:Outside,

To get to your original question, my opinion hasn't changed due to the Knicks game; I think he stays.

I have waffled, and wildly so, on my belief that he could be dealt based on my own perceived validity of some of the reports. The more I read however, the more I'm convinced that the vast majority of the sources claiming to have knowledge are just bull.

Any player is tradeable, some are just less likely to be dealt. The more you look at what it takes to build a team and the fact that Rondo delivers a highly developed skill set that offsets his few weaknesses, the more he looks like a long-term Celtic. When you come down to it, except for chucking a ball at a ref, he's done nothing to warrant his departure. As far as target practice on a zebra goes; who hasn't wanted to do that?

I think as Boston fans we can safely turn our attention elsewhere; like how's Jeff Green doing or will the weather be nice for the St. Patrick's day parade.

Regards

How did waffles get such a bad rep?


bob

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Here's an article from the Globe, Chad Finn, headlined "Don't let Rondo become another team's DJ".

Remember, Johnny Most said "Bird stole the ball, but DJ went to the basket".

As if Rajon Rondo's 18-17-20 tour de force Sunday wasn't enough evidence for you that for all of his flaws, trading the enigmatic but breathtakingly inventive point guard would be a transaction liable to haunt, you're probably too busy mentally trading him for a more flawed player that you're far less familiar with anyway.

So let me take another approach, one I think should strike you at your soul as a Celtics fan:

Why would you want to risk Rondo becoming someone else's DJ?

I know, it may seem borderline blasphemous to compare Rondo, not yet six full seasons into his NBA career, to Dennis Johnson, a Hall of Famer who has a case that the Big 3 on those eternally revered '80s Celtics teams really was a fantastic four. Larry Bird famously called him the greatest teammate he ever had. At DJ's posthumous and long overdue induction in Springfield, Magic Johnson remembered him as "one of the smartest players ever to play.'' His No. 3 hangs from the Garden rafters, an acknowledgement of his role in winning championships in 1984 and '86, of all the big shots ...




. . . and heady plays . . .




... DJ made along the way. If Bird didn't have the ball in his hands at the end of the game, you wanted it in DJ's.

That's something we're obviously not quite ready to say about Rondo at the moment. And I'm not suggesting Rondo is DJ's peer as a Celtic, though I think it's someday possible provided this storm passes and Danny Ainge finds a way to reload the roster without losing a couple of seasons -- and Rondo's interest -- in pursuit of lottery ping-pong balls. I don't dish comparisons to DJ lightly; he is probably my favorite non-Larry Celtic of all time, depending upon which flashbacks I've seen on NBA TV recently. He's in the starting five for sure.

But it must be remembered that DJ was not a Celtic lifer. He built his career and his reputation -- for better and worse -- in Seattle and Phoenix before coming to Boston in what would be a heist of Lowe/Varitek-for-Slocumb proportions, arriving for Rick Robey in June 1983. There's a reason Johnson, the 1978-79 Finals MVP for the Sonics, a six-time first-team All-Defensive choice and four-time All-Star before he ever took the court for the Celtics, was available.

He was an incorrigible pain in the neck. And that's the watered-down DJ fanboy version.

In writing about David Halberstam's classic "The Breaks of the Game'' a few weeks back, I made reference to one of his references about Johnson's petulance and his negative effect on chemistry with the Sonics, eventually leading to him being dealt to the Suns, where he played two productive but tumultuous years before coming to Boston. Here's another DJ anecdote from that book:

During the previous year's playoff series against Phoenix, with Dennis Johnson going into a childish funk during a crucial game, [veteran forward Paul] Silas had sat next to him on the bench and lectured him in harsh terms about how much was at stake and how much he was costing his teammates. Johnson had gone back in the game, played better, and hit the last-second shot which allowed Seattle to win. After the game, a reporter had approached Silas. "Good game to win, Paul,'' he had said. "Yeah,'' Silas agreed, "too bad an [expletive] had to win it for us.''

Sound like anyone you know? Isn't it easy to imagine Paul Pierce ... or KG ... or Ray Allen ... playing the role of Paul Silas? Pierce reportedly gave him an encouraging pep talk just last week.

Still skeptical? Here's Bob Ryan's lede on his column the day after DJ was finally elected to the Hall of Fame:

He wasn't always beloved. Headstrong from the start, he continually tested the patience of Seattle coach Lenny Wilkens to the point where the Sonics were happy to trade him to Phoenix one year removed from being a Finals MVP and a mere weeks after being named to the All-NBA second team. And despite protestations to the contrary, the Suns never would have traded him to Boston three years later had there not been some issues during his time in Phoenix.

Bob noted in the piece that DJ would occasionally take the night off during, say, the random January game in Sacramento. It was part of the package. But the big performances in big games became habit, and DJ earned the cachet to get away with it:

What the Celtics learned for themselves was the meaning of that stellar 1979 Finals performance. DJ liked the big stage, and he had an inner mechanism that enabled him to perform at his absolute best when it most mattered. "I know DJ is really up for the game when he takes it to the basket," Bird would say.

Did you notice yesterday that Rondo again rose to the challenge on national television against a hyped opponent, in this case Jeremy Lin? Like DJ, he sometimes gets bored with the NBA routine, and Bird's he's-into-it-when-he-takes-it-to-the-basket measuring stick probably applies to Rondo as well. When he's challenged and engaged, you wouldn't want him on any other team but the one for which you cheer.

I recognize that DJ and Rondo aren't precise comparisons. They are two of the most diversely and unusually skilled players in league history. There is not a spot-on comp for either of them, though it's impossible not to recognize that they do have much in common, particularly when you're talking about the spry DJ of his youth, who was every bit the ridiculous athlete Rondo is.

DJ was the defender Rondo is purported to be (he blocked an astounding 14 shots in the '79 Finals. Find me another 6-foot-4-inch guard with that in his repertoire). Rondo is a superior playmaker and plays with more duende. DJ shot better the bigger the moment, while the foul-line-phobic Rondo still shrinks from time to time in the fourth quarter. Both could fill out a box score. Both had tremendous defensive skills, though DJ's were more refined and consistent. Both annoyed the hell out of their teammates at times. Both were regarded as temperamental, eccentric, intelligent, instinctive and unorthodox. Both played a major role in winning a championship at a young age (DJ at 24, Rondo at 21).

I truly do not believe Ainge will deal Rondo unless he gets what he perceives as equal value in return. That does not mean Stephen Curry, Pau Gasol, or Kevin Martin.

Ainge can live with Rondo, not as a centerpiece, but as an essential piece. Remember, the Celtics boss knows a thing or two about playing with complex teammates, having been DJ's backcourt partner for nearly six full seasons.

It seemed like it should have been longer, didn't it?

Here's hoping Rondo is here long beyond this, his sixth year.

We don't want to know what Suns fans felt like watching Dennis Johnson became the epitome of a Celtic, wondering why he couldn't stay with our team longer and how anyone ever thought trading him for Rick Robey was a bright idea.

bob

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Bob

nice read thanks for posting it.

sometimes the best trades/moves are the ones you never make.

I really can't see him in anything but green....... ever

beat

Bob,

I recall being apprehensive of DJ's demeanor when he came to the Celtics. For a long time, I waited for demonstrations of his storied petulance and moodiness. As far as I'm concerned, if they ever occurred, they were kept in house. When he was a Celtic, he seemed to me to be almost the perfect teammate. It's very possible that DJ's teammates deserved more credit than they received publicly for keeping him in check. All I know is that it seemed very improbable that a player who maintained such a high level of excellence at the defensive end could be as egocentric as DJ was sometimes made out to be. Of course, the names Artest and Rodman do come to mind.

Sam

sam wrote:Bob,

I recall being apprehensive of DJ's demeanor when he came to the Celtics. For a long time, I waited for demonstrations of his storied petulance and moodiness. As far as I'm concerned, if they ever occurred, they were kept in house. When he was a Celtic, he seemed to me to be almost the perfect teammate. It's very possible that DJ's teammates deserved more credit than they received publicly for keeping him in check. All I know is that it seemed very improbable that a player who maintained such a high level of excellence at the defensive end could be as egocentric as DJ was sometimes made out to be. Of course, the names Artest and Rodman do come to mind.

Sam

sam,

Churchill said "The price of greatness is responsibility".

Obviously, Winnie didn't know many of today's athletes...

bob

.

Here's a little bit of trivia:

Josh Smith, of Atlanta, was Rondo's High School teammate.

bob

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