Re: Post Season Moves and Observations

by **tjmakz** Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:15 am

sam wrote:Could he be the player responsible for the report Rosalie heard about the Celtics trying to trade their two first and JJJ for the #2 pick?

Is it possible that, at #2, there will be no center who would be good enough to draft? Pending trades and ability to sign free agents, the Celtics' quality depth at SF would seem to dwarf their quality depth at center.

Sam

Supposedly, if Charlotte trades the #2 pick it will be for an established player.
The last thing Charlotte needs is a young/unproven guy in JJJ and two more draft picks.
It is interesting that James Harden's name has been floated around this week as a possible player traded for the #2 pick.

I think Harrison Barnes has the tools to be a much better pro then college player.
He could be a younger and more talented version of Andre Iguodala.
Golden State would LOVE for him to drop to #7.
GS would probably give up their #35 pick just to move up a couple of spots to draft Barnes.

by **cowens/oldschool** Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:13 am

sam wrote:Cow,

Actually, I'm not at all certain that, if Pierce were no longer to be here, his replacement would come from a trade. It could potentially be Jeff Green or one of the many scoring wings available in the draft or BOTH Green and a draftee. If Pierce were traded, it wouldn't necessarily have to be for a wing.

I never said I'd look to a scorer to make others better or to be a clutch stud or a shot creating terror. Those are your assumptions, not mine.

I'd look for a wing who can help make a fast break hum by finishing well and being a really good perimeter shooter. I have faith that, as long a a given player has those two attributes and can fit neatly into a more up-tempo system, simply being part of the system is very likely to make him much better and more well-rounded than in college. I wouldn't necessarily expect him to be a great clutch shooter right out of the box, but I'd hope that the system would eventually position him (as well as others in the rotation) to become dangerous at crunch time.

I think the Auerbach system halped make Sam Jones a much more well-rounded and dangerous player. I think the Heinsohn system made Jo Jo White a much more well-rounded and dangerous player. I think the K.C. Jones system made Dennis Johnson a much more well-rounded and dangerous player. I see no reason why the Doc Rivers system couldn't take a really good scorer and round him into a a much more well-rounded and dangerous player.

You're more of a player guy. I'm more of a system guy. There's certainly nothing wrong with either perspective. They just happen to be different.

Sam

look at the trend in the league, every team in the last 10 years or so that has won it all has had a dynamic scoring SF or wing, except Dallas which had a lights out shooting/scoring machine PF, so if you think you can win with just a running SF without other dynamic attributes, I'd say your wrong.....but what do I know? could Jeff Green be that player, I don't know? a younger Shawn Marion clone would be nice.

by **cowens/oldschool** Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:17 am

bobheckler wrote:
sam wrote:Bob,

Thanks for that information. If you had the #2 pick for the Celtics, would you rather get Barnes or Drummond? I like the sound of Drummond's being between Ibaka and Jordan.

Sam

sam,

Keeping with my philosophy that quality bigs and pgs are rare as hen's teeth and wings are a dime-a-dozen, I'd take Drummond in a hummingbird's heartbeat. This kid is as big now as Bynum and he's only going on 19. Who knows? Maybe his coming from UConn may even tug at Ray's heartstrings and make him consider staying to mentor the kid. Throw on top of that how desperate we are for a legit center and that we have a shooter in Moore now and a pretty good shooter at SF with Green (I'm assuming he's coming back) taking Drummond seems like a no-brainer and damned if "no-brains" doesn't describe me to a T.

Then again, if you look at the more transcendent players in the last 20 years, who were they? Michael Jordan, SG; Tim Duncan, C/PF (The Big Fundamental); Shaq, C (forcing GMs to adjust to handle his battering ram style); Kobe Bryant, SG (the closer); Steve Nash, PG (who brought back the cache and value of a true pass-first point guard/floor general); LBJ, SF (point forward); Kevin Garnett, C/PF (revolutionizing the center position by being a 7-footer able to defend 3 positions while also being able to shoot from range). 4 bigs/pgs, 3 wings. So, maybe I'm not giving wings enough credit for the impact they can have on the game. From what I've read about Barnes he is a tremendous athlete that can shoot out to NBA 3pt range now and can explode off the floor with a 39" no-step vertical leap. That's pretty damn spectacular.

LBJ was the #1 pick of the 2003 draft. Do you remember who was #2? Probably not, because it was 7'0", 270# C Darko Milicic. #3 was Carmelo, #4 was Bosh, #5 was Wade, #6 was Kaman, #7 was Kirk Hinrich, #8 was TJ Ford, #9 Mike Sweetney, #10 Jarvis Hayes, #11 Mickael Pietrus, #12 Nick Collison, #13 Marcus Banks (whom we traded up for). A rich draft, but throws the whole "go big" out the window (and when I say "big" I'm looking at you, Sweetney. Partially because I can't see around you). That was a "go for the best athlete available" draft.

bob

.

bob did you ever see Barnes play?

by **bobheckler** Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:17 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:
bobheckler wrote:
sam wrote:Bob,

Thanks for that information. If you had the #2 pick for the Celtics, would you rather get Barnes or Drummond? I like the sound of Drummond's being between Ibaka and Jordan.

Sam

sam,

Keeping with my philosophy that quality bigs and pgs are rare as hen's teeth and wings are a dime-a-dozen, I'd take Drummond in a hummingbird's heartbeat. This kid is as big now as Bynum and he's only going on 19. Who knows? Maybe his coming from UConn may even tug at Ray's heartstrings and make him consider staying to mentor the kid. Throw on top of that how desperate we are for a legit center and that we have a shooter in Moore now and a pretty good shooter at SF with Green (I'm assuming he's coming back) taking Drummond seems like a no-brainer and damned if "no-brains" doesn't describe me to a T.

Then again, if you look at the more transcendent players in the last 20 years, who were they? Michael Jordan, SG; Tim Duncan, C/PF (The Big Fundamental); Shaq, C (forcing GMs to adjust to handle his battering ram style); Kobe Bryant, SG (the closer); Steve Nash, PG (who brought back the cache and value of a true pass-first point guard/floor general); LBJ, SF (point forward); Kevin Garnett, C/PF (revolutionizing the center position by being a 7-footer able to defend 3 positions while also being able to shoot from range). 4 bigs/pgs, 3 wings. So, maybe I'm not giving wings enough credit for the impact they can have on the game. From what I've read about Barnes he is a tremendous athlete that can shoot out to NBA 3pt range now and can explode off the floor with a 39" no-step vertical leap. That's pretty damn spectacular.

LBJ was the #1 pick of the 2003 draft. Do you remember who was #2? Probably not, because it was 7'0", 270# C Darko Milicic. #3 was Carmelo, #4 was Bosh, #5 was Wade, #6 was Kaman, #7 was Kirk Hinrich, #8 was TJ Ford, #9 Mike Sweetney, #10 Jarvis Hayes, #11 Mickael Pietrus, #12 Nick Collison, #13 Marcus Banks (whom we traded up for). A rich draft, but throws the whole "go big" out the window (and when I say "big" I'm looking at you, Sweetney. Partially because I can't see around you). That was a "go for the best athlete available" draft.

bob

.

bob did you ever see Barnes play?

cow,

I must confess I have not. Part of that is because I don't own a TV. If I want to watch a game I either go to it (I was at Pac Bell Park on Wednesday for Matt Cain's perfect game!) or I go out to a bar that has enough TVs they can allow me to commandeer one. Furthermore, I've never been into college sports (although I was good friends of the SUNYA basketball team when I was matriculated there, lo these many many years ago, but that was personal). To me, college is where you go to learn how to do something and the pros (or post-college jobs/career) is where you go to actually apply that education and see how good you really are. At the risk of having college sports fans on this board having a collective conniption fit, I look at college sports like AAA baseball or the CFL. Some might make the jump to the majors, but the overwhelming majority of them just aren't good enough and never will be, so I don't invest my time in following them. If and/or when they make the grade in the majors, then I pay attention.

That is why I keep referring to draftexpress's reviews of players (like the 39" vertical leap of Barnes) and avidly read the comments made by the posters here. For example, when Beat said that he has been to Syracuse games and is down on Melo, that steered me away from him. I trust Beat's judgment and I have nothing else to replace or supplement them, including my own personal observations.

Bob

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by **Sam** Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:28 pm

Cow, please don't take me so literally. Obviously, if someone has athletiicism, he's rather unlikely to stand like a statue on defense or refuse to participate in a half-court offense. He will have competed in fast company in college ball, for Pete's sake, so he'll have other skills. But most players have dominant skills. Sam Jones won 10 rings, and his dominant skill was shooting, so that was his primary role. For the Celtics of the future, I'd like a SF's primary role to be to get out on the wing in an up-tempo game.

Sam

by **bobheckler** Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:37 pm

More from Mark Murphy of the Herald:

Mickael Pietrus, who had damaged cartilage removed from his right knee during arthroscopic surgery on Wednesday, has remained in Boston for the early part of his recovery.

He has also had what agent Bill McCandless describes as “early discussions” about a return for next season, though there’s a long way to go before the Celtics make any decisions on the future makeup of their roster.

Above all, the team appears to be waiting on Kevin Garnett about his thoughts on a return. C’s management is said not to be in a rush in that respect.

“I think Mickael feels that it would be great to come back,” said McCandless. “So we’ll see. We have a new (collective bargaining agreement) to deal with, and in time we’ll get back in touch with them.”

If nothing else, Pietrus proved to management that he can play in pain.

“He was hurt more than we really knew,” said McCandless. “More than he let on. Based on my conversation with the doctor, he was playing on 1.8 legs.”

Dooling wants back in

The Celtics will have a decision to make on Keyon Dooling, the 32-year-old veteran guard who filled in capably as a third guard once Bradley went out for good prior to the conference finals against Miami.

“Of course I’d like to (come back),” he said. “I love it here.”

But it’s anyone’s guess what this roster will look like next fall.

“I’m not sure, that’s above my pay grade,” said Dooling. ...

My Notes: I must confess I'm a bit concerned about the comment about how Celtics management is not in a rush to ascertain KG's decision. Obviously we don't want to pressure him, especially after such a tough loss, but his return or not makes a big (double entendre intended) difference in how we draft.

bob

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by **bobheckler** Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:49 pm

Sonny Weems is returning to the NBA and the Celtics, supposedly, have interest.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/weemsso01.html

http://www.nbapostup.com/sonny-weems-scouting-report-2011

I seem to remember him playing for Denver and Toronto and being underwhelmed. His stats and the scouting report support that opinion. I hope we're not this desperate.

bob

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by **Outside** Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:15 pm

bobheckler wrote:I must confess I'm a bit concerned about the comment about how Celtics management is not in a rush to ascertain KG's decision. Obviously we don't want to pressure him, especially after such a tough loss, but his return or not makes a big (double entendre intended) difference in how we draft.

With absolutely no supporting information whatsoever to back up my opinion, my take is that Celtic management wouldn't rush KG because rushing him will only make him more likely to retire. This will be a difficult decision for him, with retirement as the most likely option, followed by returning to Boston, and signing for another team a distant third. If they push him for an answer, he's likely to say, "You want a !@#$%^& answer? I'm !@#$%^& retiring. There's your !@#$%^& answer."

The Celtics would like him back. Being patient with him is the best avenue to that goal.

Outside

by **bobheckler** Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:45 pm

Outside wrote:
bobheckler wrote:I must confess I'm a bit concerned about the comment about how Celtics management is not in a rush to ascertain KG's decision. Obviously we don't want to pressure him, especially after such a tough loss, but his return or not makes a big (double entendre intended) difference in how we draft.
With absolutely no supporting information whatsoever to back up my opinion, my take is that Celtic management wouldn't rush KG because rushing him will only make him more likely to retire. This will be a difficult decision for him, with retirement as the most likely option, followed by returning to Boston, and signing for another team a distant third. If they push him for an answer, he's likely to say, "You want a !@#$%^& answer? I'm !@#$%^& retiring. There's your !@#$%^& answer."

The Celtics would like him back. Being patient with him is the best avenue to that goal.

Outside

outside,

You're probably right, as !@#$%^& usual.

bob

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by **swish** Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:05 pm

Many suggestions as to moves that could- should be made and yet no one has suggested what direction the team should take. Is it all in for another shot at the title or blow it up and start the rebuilding process? Two vastly different directions which call for major differences in potential solutions. I wonder which way Danny is leaning ? Im in favor of blowing it up. And how does the board feel?

Swish

by **beat** Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:17 pm

Bob

RE Fab Melo: I really don't how he will do. He could be a steal in a later pick. Someone might take him early so a non issue for us.

He did improve a lot from his frosh year. But his frosh year was basically nothing so anything would have been an improvement. He dropped some weight and did get quicker,

Another plus he is big and can move. Long arms.

IMHO He'll make a team somewhere but he's at least a year or two out from getting any meaningful time if ever.

Shortcomings outweigh the positive, from my view.

Not the toughest rebounder for a guy his size, gets in foul trouble. Has played so much zone at SU not sure how he'd be matching up against NBA players, think it could/would get ugly. No range or outside game and really not a lot of inside either. But again he was at best the 4 or 5th option at SU.

On a positive note he does dress well when he is not in the game! So should have little issue with the NBA dress code.

(Melo is on the far right in the white sweater.)

Post Season Moves and Observations - Page 4 Dsc_5010

Post Season Moves and Observations - Page 4 Dsc_5010

And his long arms help out other ways too. Very Happy

Post Season Moves and Observations - Page 4 Dsc_4913

beat

by **Sam** Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:11 pm

Swish, my take is that Danny is doing his diligence (scoping out the free agent market, evaluating draft possibilities, sending out trade feelers, etc.) and will let KG's decision go a long way to determining the answer to your question. I do wish KG would make his decision prior to the draft, because his decision could determine how they go in the draft.

On the other hand, it wouldn't shock me at all if Danny already knows what KG's decision is and is just keeping it quiet so as not to tip his hand prematurely concerning the draft.

Sam

by **dboss** Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:09 pm

I agree.. A decision before the draft would be nice.

If kg retires do we go center our pf?

Fab remains a question mark which is consistent with where he is projected to be drafted.

Dboss

by **dboss** Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:13 pm

Has anyone seem the draft express video on Harrison Barnes.

I swear he really reminds me of Paul Pierce...with more hops.

Trade up young man..trade up.

Dboss

by **swish** Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:32 pm

Sam
If he's waiting on Garnetts decission it would probably mean that he's entertaining the idea of going for it all again. But perhaps he has no intent to sign Garnett and instead is planning on a total make over of the roster with the intent of getting a high draft pick next year( see 2006-07). Salary cap wise the Celts have an option to buy out Pierce's contract next June(2013) for 4 or 5 million. A carefull use of team spending with a priority on 1 year contracts would place the Celts in a great position for the 2013 free agency sweepstakes. In any event, time will tell.
swish

by **bobheckler** Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:11 pm

dboss wrote:Has anyone seem the draft express video on Harrison Barnes.

I swear he really reminds me of Paul Pierce...with more hops.

Trade up young man..trade up.

Dboss

dboss,

Yeah, some of that was really impressive.

Interestingly, he has a 39" vertical leap but he doesn't seem to use it on offense to finish at the rim, but rather more on defense to get up on a shooter. Questionable ballhandling and courtvision. But wow, can he shoot and defend.

Did you see the draftexpress video on Royce White, who may be available for us? 6'8", 270#? The first half of the video makes him look like the second coming of Charles Barkley, the second half is scary. No jumpshot, inconsistent defense. but Holy Cow put him in the open court with the ball and he's Barkley. Great halfcourt passer too.

I love those videos. Unfortunately there isn't one for Andrew Nicholson, who is also supposedly on our radar.

Another player whose name I keep seeing popping as a possibility for us is Quincy Miller. 6'10", 220#, SF. 7'4" wingspan. Best case/worst case, according to Draftexpress, is a poor man's Kevin Durant/Austin Daye. With the 22nd pick I'd be thrilled if he fell anywhere in between those two.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Quincy-Miller-5764/

I'm not crazy about this kid. He's tall, VERY TALL for a SF, but his shot release point is eye level. So, he's wasting his height.

I'm hoping that the guy who makes these videos, Mike Schmidt, has watched A LOT of these kids' game films and isn't just pulling out things that jump out at him but aren't necessarily typical.

bob

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by **worcester** Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:20 pm

Regarding KG: "You want a !@#$%^& answer? I'm !@#$%^& retiring. There's your !@#$%^& answer."

I had thought Pietrus was our only bilingual player, but I forgot about KG.

by **dboss** Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:29 pm

Royce ia intriguing.

At 270 he has experienced issues with his weight. I seem to also recall an apparent anxiety disorder. But as you pointed out he can play.

Also checked out Quincy. A definite possibility for Boston.

There are some many variables.

But my gut tells me da is about ready to rebuild completely. I expect him to trade the picks and or players to move up and snag that young stud.

We need another young studs. Once we have that piece the rest will be much easier.

Dboss

by **worcester** Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:34 pm

Doc's input will weigh heavily on Danny's decision, as will the responses from KG and Ray. Again, thinking long term, I really like Jabari Parker, a Mormon like Danny and our next President.

by **Sam** Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:13 pm

NEWS FLASH!

Danny Ainge has just announced that he has signed a deal with John Grisham to write a suspense thriller entitled "The Summer of 2012 and How Danny Boy Fooled them All." Set in a dingy Causeway Street office, this will be a rags to riches, bad health to good wealth saga in which Dapper Dan (as he calls himself) not only paves the way for unending good fortune for his organization but, in the process, exposes and assassinates the perpetrators of one of the greatest conspiracy machines of all time, headed by Spud Head Stern, Esq.

The book will sell for $18 next year, $19 the year after, $20 the year after, etc., until it reaches the price of $50, when all 29 competing organizations are expected to concede and fold. Tentative plans include a promotion in which a lifetime supply of Hoyo de Monterrey cigars will go to the millionth buyer of the book.

Stay tuned for further details.

Sam

by **gyso** Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:10 am

worcester wrote:Doc's input will weigh heavily on Danny's decision, as will the responses from KG and Ray. Again, thinking long term, I really like Jabari Parker, a Mormon like Danny and our next President.

worcester,

I think you forgot a comma after the last "Danny". That said, what makes you think Jabari Parker could be our next President? Yes, he already has his own Wikipedia page, but he doesn't meet the age criteria!!

lol!

gyso

by **cowens/oldschool** Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:01 pm

dboss wrote:Has anyone seem the draft express video on Harrison Barnes.

I swear he really reminds me of Paul Pierce...with more hops.

Trade up young man..trade up.

Dboss

did anyone see him play in the NCAA's? alot he can't do

by **dboss** Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:58 am

Looks like Jeff Green's agent, David Falk, is trying to pump up the price for his client.

Gyso...we have Bird rights?

Are we looking at something in the $8-$10 million range?

Dboss

by **RosalieTCeltics** Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:11 am

Would they still give him that amount of money after coming back from surgery and a year off? I know his contract was for close to $9 million before his heart problems, but......

by **dboss** Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:08 pm

Rosie...two things to consider.

Agent knows Celtics are over a barrel because we gave up Perk and need to show a return on that much discussed transaction

And the free agent market is void of top of the line talent, thus inflating the boarding war.

Dboss

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