Speaking Of No Adjustments!

Outside wrote:I think I stepped on a hornets' nest here. First off, I hope I haven't offended anyone, because that certainly wasn't my intent, but I'm concerned that I have based on how strongly people have objected to what I tried to say. It's your forum, and I'm just a visitor here, so I'm mindful of not stepping on anybody's toes. I'm sorry if that was the case.

I think I shot myself in the foot by getting off track, but I my original question was to politely, respectfully reconcile these two positions:

-- The best chance the Celtics have to win is to give the ball to Pierce in isolation.

-- The oft-expressed position that Celtic basketball is team basketball, other teams play "hero ball," and team ball will win out over hero ball.

Again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I sincerely just wanted to get people's opinions. I hope that my mistake was the way I originally posed the question and the fact that I confused the issue by straying off on tangents. I thought that it was okay to ask the question. In any event, I'll do my best to be more careful in the future.

Outside….this is just as much your board as anyone else (other than Sam), so express your opinions all you want.

I don’t like isolation ball as a means for running the offense any more than you do, and I agree that the Celtics have a history of playing team ball. BUT, I think in trying to isolate those two statements, you are pulling them out of the greater context and that is misleading.

Let me rephrase them in the context of what I have been saying.

-- The best chance the Celtics have to win (at the end of a close game) is to give the ball to Pierce in isolation.

-- The oft-expressed position that Celtic basketball is team basketball (which it still is for the first 45 or 46 minutes of any given game), other (bad) teams play "hero ball," and team ball will win out over hero ball.

Clearly, no one is advocating for running isolation for Pierce or anyone for the majority of the game. But at the end of close games for the last 30+ years in the NBA (maybe longer), teams give the ball to their best player to make a play.

Outside,

We all have pretty thick skins as long as we respect the basic intent of posters with whom we might happen to disagree on a specific issue. And your basic intent has been proven, over a fairly long time, to be quite objective.

Mrkleen and Outside,

I think there's an important distinction between (1) an occasional PLAY that isolates a given player and hopefully puts him in the possible best position to succeed and (2) an offensive system based primarily on isolation. I can go back to the triple pick set for Sam Jones' game-winner in game 4 of the 1969 finals to illustrate how the Celtics have run SELECTIVE iso plays. And sometimes, when everything else has bogged down, they're done so for a sustained period (often involving Pierce)—but always as the exception and not the rule.

However, I think a steady diet of isolation basketball is boring and a rather sad deviation from the basic intent of the most interactive team sport of all-time. Someone could sit me down with a gag in my mouth (I could name many people who would love that) and talk me blue in the face with absolutely no shot at convincing me that, at the end of quarters, it's strategically preferable to pound the ball into the floor and finally heave an all-too-predictable prayer than to run a motion play to create several less obvious options rather than one predictable move.

Sam

Sounds like we are all on the same page and since the Celtics only run isolation at the end of quarters and the end of close games, this should really be a non issue.

Kleen outside etc

Man this is a great place to talk hoops though ya know it? You got to suit up and show up everyday and if you get sloppy or engage n stinkin thinkin whammo!

Outside no offense taken at all I love your thoughtful post and Kleen is one of our letter high fastball guys (he and Cow) that help keeps us all from crowding the plate.

What a great board!

mrkleen, I disagree with your analysis totally. Posters such as Sam and I feel player and ball movement involving the entire team opens many more offensive possibilities, and puts more pressure on opponent's defenses.

We can agree to disagree, but dont think for a minute that it is a "non issue".

Outside, Sd Celt Beat, Sam

Another thing. You all make me think. Your post are so well thought out and presented that it makes me constantly reconsider my position. I still disagree with yall but I am sure seeing your side. WHat a great thing. Politics and religion KILL people because they are unwilling to do this. Seriously it is a really grand thing to disagree and be able to so closely examine the other guys point of view. I think every problem in this country could be fixed pretty quick if our representatives were able to do this. Pretty damn quick.

Jeb and all

A couple of thoughts

During a baseball season I read somewhere sometime that you really only played 1/3 of a season.

You were going to win 1/3 (54 games) pretty much without the manager doing anything but submitting a lineup.

You were also destined to lose 1/3 of the games no matter what the manager did.

It was those other 54 games that moves and such would make or break you as a manager /coach.

The Celtics were never really going to win 72 games period and I think we all knew that.

So in comparison (and I don't want to use the same 1/3 each) there are a certain number of games we will lose no matter what moves Doc makes. There will also be a certain number of games we win simply by walking on the court. But there seems to be more than a fair share of games that we should win (at least so far) where we just do not come to play (note first quarter blues).

I just get the impression that nothing will be easy for a while and might never get easy either.

beat

Beat

I think we may be in for a long couple a months. But I got to object pretty strong to things never getting any easier. I don't think things are that dire. I think most of our d hinges on KG. I think he will get stronger but I also think Quis, Sheed and Shelden will get much better as time passes Quis in paticular will be a stop the bleeding guy. I also think the whole team will learn to play with the new KG more and more as time passes and will begin to cover for him. They got used to KG covering THEM.

It seems clear to me that there are some locker room things slowing us down but I got to think Doc and the vets will work that stuff out.

I'd like to see Doc a little more animated. Spike's post about Russ's first game and the way Red fought for him got me thinking about this. We HAVE gotten some real bad calls. Maybe DOC should get thrown out of a game to make a point. What do you guys think? Is this crazy talk?

Jeb

I am usually by nature a very optimistic person. That said this project appears to be one that will take time perhaps a whole season of battles as many young teams that have been doormats for years are feeling their oats now.

on another thought.........

What I would like to see are at least 5 easy baskets per game more than we give up. By this I mean total breakaways where it's a layup or a dunk. And basically uncontested.

10 easy points more than we give up.

See what we get tonight vs what philly gets.

beat

While I'm not a fan of ISO ball in general, I don't really mind the ball in Paul's hands with under 24 seconds in the game and the Celtics needing a score. I think that he is the best (maybe only) option if we need a ball handler that can score at will and is good in the clutch.

Tommy is always talking about how good Doc is at calling plays out of time outs. Tommy has been around for a few years and seen a few close games so I think his opinion holds a lot of weight. I know he's a homer, but he wouldn't just say something like that just for the heck of it. Sometimes the play doesn't work out. There is, after all, another team trying their best to stop the play. It's not going to be 100% effective everytime. Yes, the play usually starts with the ball in Paul's hands, and often he ends up taking the shot, but how many times last year did Paul dish to Ray for the game winner? We've already seen it this year with KG as well.

It's extremely risky to try to pass the ball 3-4 times when there is limited time on the clock and we are in need of a score. The opposition knows that it is the most important possession of the game and are going to be aggressive and get in passing lanes. I know this girl would be more upset losing a game on a stolen pass rather than a missed jumper! Wouldn't you?

Kelly and all

I go back to 69 and the C's down a point to the Lakers in Game 4 of the finals, we had stars, Russ, Hondo, Sam, Nellie, Satch ect

So did we Iso with any one with Sam and Hondo perhaps the best at creating their own shot.

Well with 7 seconds there were two passes with no dribbles and a 15 foot jumper. Bryant to Hondo to Sam comming off a triple pick for the winner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR7ceotp-Uk&feature=related

No iso, all players had a role and did it.

Would I be upset at a stolen pass of course. But it also depends on the play itself was it a "stupid" pass or a great defensive play. If you are covered and throw up a POS vs making a pass to an open teamate as part of a designed play. I'll go with the play and take my chances rather than a hail mary heave.

beat

Something to watch

TEAM no iso.............. We not me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1U_joRPqWts&feature=related

Sam's shotin game 4 is at about the 5:50-6:00 min mark of this.

beat

Beat I can't watch the videos as the internet is restricted here at work, but I'm sure they are beautfiul. I don't think I made my point clearly in the previous post. I would certainly prefer that the Celtics run a play. I don't WANT Paul to dribble a hole in the floor and then throw up a desperation shot. I just think that if Doc's play calls for iso, than it has to be Paul who handles it, even if the other team "knows" that he's going to have the ball. While I still stick to the fact that it's risky to make multiple passes when you only have one possession, I think the current C's could do it. If Doc put Sheed, KG, Paul, Ray and Eddie out there, you've got 2 excellent passers, two excellent shooters, and PP who can pretty much do anything he wants.

Kelly

Watch um later! And have fun at the game!

As for passing.....

I have yet to see any player outrun a pass, yet but have seen several run as fast as other players.

Anyway makes for a nice debate.

beat

sdceltfan wrote:mrkleen, I disagree with your analysis totally. Posters such as Sam and I feel player and ball movement involving the entire team opens many more offensive possibilities, and puts more pressure on opponent's defenses.

We can agree to disagree, but dont think for a minute that it is a "non issue".

Here is a question SD.

Name me ONE TEAM in the modern NBA that doesnt isolate their best player at the end of a tight game?

Better yet, name me one team in the last 30 years that didnt run isolation plays for their best player at the end of a close game?

You can disagree with it, but the FACT remains that this is the way basketball is played in tight games down the stretch. Sorry.

beat wrote:Kelly and all

I go back to 69 and the C's down a point to the Lakers in Game 4 of the finals, we had stars, Russ, Hondo, Sam, Nellie, Satch ect

So did we Iso with any one with Sam and Hondo perhaps the best at creating their own shot.

Well with 7 seconds there were two passes with no dribbles and a 15 foot jumper. Bryant to Hondo to Sam comming off a triple pick for the winner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR7ceotp-Uk&feature=related

No iso, all players had a role and did it.

Would I be upset at a stolen pass of course. But it also depends on the play itself was it a "stupid" pass or a great defensive play. If you are covered and throw up a POS vs making a pass to an open teamate as part of a designed play. I'll go with the play and take my chances rather than a hail mary heave.

beat

Beat - do you think that you had to go back to 1969 to find an example means anything?

mrkleen

It worked too!

If given time I'm sure I could think of and find others, that one just comes to mind real easy, if you know what i mean.

I guess in answer to your question basketball was a lot more fun to watch back then too! At least for me.

Nothing beats a well run play by players who care to practice it.
Watch teams during time outs, do any players really listen.

To me an ISO is lazy mans coaching 101 basketball and not the way it's meant to be played.

I don't think many coaches are nearly prepared as they should be and I include Doc in that statement too, guess it's a sign of the times.

beat

Triple pick 69................probably the last one ever run.

mrkleen, of course a lot depends on time remaining in game. We have both pretty much run this topic into the ground. I respect your thoughts and replies. I want to thank you and other posters for your thoughts. That is what this great board is all about.

As was posted earlier, this is a great board that I am proud to be a part of. Discussions that are passionate toward Celtic basketball and respectful of other posters is what this all about.

Thanks again, Sam for making this available.

Go Celtics!

If the game was iso all night long, I would agree with you guys - but it isnt.

I also agree you see it more now then ever....especially with teams like the Lakers and Cavs.

But in the end, this is not a new part of the game. Larry Bird did it. Magic and Jordan did it. I bet Tommy, Sam Jones, Elgin Baylor and Jerry West did it too. So to dislike it is fine. But to blame Doc for doing something that has been a part of basketball since the beginning doesnt make sense to me...sorry.

Best to you both as well....never anything personal, just good debating of points.

mrkleen

no problem whatsoever

But as to Bird, he did not stand out their and pound the ball for 5-6 seconds then gun up some crazy shot. At least not from what I remember. Even with Hondo there was always movement by others too. Just think getting players to run plays (special ones that they have practiced for last posssessions with regard to time of course) might be a novel idea that might work.

beat

I would like nothing better than run a play for Perk at game's end. Can you imagine the thrill and pride he would receive from a game winner? He works so hard - he deserves one.

Go Celtics!

Sdcelt

Was good to see Rondo hit such an important jumper.

Mrkleen,

The "old-time" stars had plays called to set them up and maximize their scoring potential (triple picks, pick-and-rolls, whatever). But I don't call that iso basketball, which I think is more a function of individual initiative than planned plays.

I'm not conscious of EVER seeing one of the "oldsters" deliberately hold or pound the ball while obviously plotting an individual move. They never held the ball and then heaved at the end of a quarter. Things just didn't work that way. It was a game of motion and interaction; and even the great ones could have been benched in a hurry if they had consistently bucked that pattern. Whereas today's stars have a tendency to try to dominate via calculated athleticism, yesterday's stars were VASTLY more likely to succeed via the elements of surprise, guile and teamwork.

As a spectator, the biggest difference for me is that I never fell asleep watching a game in the old days. Maybe it's a function of my age now. Who knows? LOL.

Sam

Fair enough...I am nearly 40, so I never watched the games when the Celtics were a dynasty.

But i absolutely remember Larry Bird holding the ball for a last shot in close games....same with Jordan, Dr J, Magic, George Gervin, Bernard King on down the line.

I am over this topic - but still dont think it happens more than 2 or 3 minutes a night, so it isnt a big deal to me.

mrkleen

bird took many last shots and many were winners that there is no debate. I think he probably made more game winners than anyone ever. That said, I'd like you to show me just one time where he got the ball with 10+ seconds left in a game winning situation (or tying) and held it or dribbled it nearly stationary for most of it, then with 2-3 (or so) seconds left made a move for his shot. I really don't recall it at all.

And if i'm wrong ........shoot me!!!


I don't remember Dr J or Gervin doing it either but they may have. I believe it started a bit with Magic but was really brough to the forefront by Jordan and on from there it went, certainly exsists on nearly every team today.

I'm 56 and do not ever recall hero ball during the 70's. And only rarely do I recall it in the 80's.

I remember going to virtually all the Buffalo Braves games in the mid 70's and Jack Ramsey had a couple of plays that created a good look for McAdoo first option or Randy Smith second option for last play situations that needed a good open shot.

And maybe its just the way we view it but I never remember any star of the past (early 80's and back) doing anything that remotely looks like what we see now. There was movement, there was motion, there were picks. Players played.

I just don't think last second plays are practiced much if at all by any team today.

Anyway good spirited debate, the way it should be!!

Hope your thanksgiving was great. Mine was "interesting" to say the least!! At least we didn't get 17 inches of snow like last year!

beat