POST GAME NEW YORK - PRESEASON

Rapid Reaction: Celtics 106, Knicks 86

By Chris Forsberg | ESPNBoston.com

HARTFORD, Conn. -- Rapid reaction after Boston Celtics defeated the New York Knicks 106-86 in exhibition play on Wednesday night at the XL Center:

• Nitty Gritty: Jared Sullinger scored a team-high 23 points on 9-of-12 shooting while making all three 3-pointers he attempted over 23 minutes. Sullinger's frontcourt mate Kelly Olynyk and reserve guard Marcus Thornton added 12 points apiece, while the starting backcourt of Avery Bradley and Marcus Smart each had 11 points. One game after shooting 35 percent from the floor (albeit in a lopsided win over the Philadelphia 76ers), the Celtics shot 48.8 percent and attacked New York's lackluster defense both inside (38 points in the paint) and out (11 of 22 beyond the 3-point arc). Tim Hardaway Jr. scored 18 points to pace the Knicks, who shot 40.6 percent overall and 20.8 percent beyond the arc.

• Loose balls: Dwight Powell, the rookie forward acquired last month from Cleveland, got extended run in the second half and played the swingman spot with two other bigs on the floor. Powell is raw, but brings quality energy and disruptive length. ... Joel Anthony made his preseason debut after missing time early in camp with a groin injury. ... The end of Boston's roster got some late-game run with Boston comfortably out front. The Celtics' late-game lineup featured camp invites Tim Frazier, Rodney McGruder, and Christian Watford alongside Powell and Erik Murphy. ... A group of UConn fans behind Boston's bench heckled the Celtics -- particularly James Young and Brad Stevens given their notable tournament defeats at the hand of the Huskies -- while chanting their school's name and mascot. ... A video review with 37 seconds to go and Boston up 20 prompted Marcus Thornton to exclaim, "C'mon, we got a flight to catch!"

• What it means: Boston moves to 2-0 on the preseason. The Celtics will fly to Toronto late tonight and practice there on Thursday before jousting with the Raptors on Friday. It's back to the Nutmeg State for Boston on Saturday for a rematch with these Knicks at Mohegan Sun.

112288

KO is really rounding into shape and I am impressed with his off season work. He is more coordinated and his foot work is really getting there. On defense he is cutting down the angles and is aggressive.

Thought this kid Powell showed me some good court presence. Positioned himself well for some rebounds, had a couple of pokes that lead to Knick turnovers.  At 6'10" 240lbs he has a nice athletic frame.  Hey did you catch the attempted hook shot by him a la Tommy Heinsohn.

Give Smart 20 NBA games and this kid is going to be an animal on defense and on offense.

112288

The Celtics look like a very dangerous team. As I was watching the game, it was apparent to me that the relentless run game was just what this team needed. Perhaps if they see the success in the new found pace, they could become motivated to turn it into a habit. I understand that it's early in preseason, but this kind of formula has great potential.

As I've mentioned before, rotating the players is key. Believe it or not, this is a deep team. Stevens could easily play the entire roster, instead of the typical 7-8 man game plan.



KJ

Enjoyed watching AB and Smart defend, both can guard either guard position with Smart being better on the 2 because of his size. AB got beat a few times, but still had very disruptive moments. Smart can already defend, he hit 3 3's tonight. Evan Turner didn't have a great game, but showed me some great change of pace in between moves, he can run the floor and get where he needs to go in the halfcourt. He looks really able to flourish in Stevens system, what a shame Indy couldn't figure out how to use him. He and Sully have the Ohio State connection and look like they love playing well together.

Thought I actually saw a few versions of the weave. Sully looked like a beast, he could be a 20-10 guy, his post game looks as good as ever, improved even as he gets where he wants then is too strong to handle. Love the pace of the game and the spacing, we can really run and we're so deep at every position, 1-4,except center....this is only year 2 of our rebuild, with all this depth, I really feel we'll be a playoff team.

Nice to see the Knicks struggle.  Nice to see Derek Fisher lose his first game.  After the crap he pulled with the Mavericks a few years back, I lost all respect for the guy.

Nice to see the Celtics playing with passion and having fun.

It will be a long season, but so far they seem to be a nice, likeable bunch of guys and that will make it as palatable as possible.

Just like in the Philly game, the Celtics took the game over in the 3rd Qtr. I like what they are trying to do.

Run, run run

Dboss

If Powell continues to play like last night, how do you not keep him on the roster?

if you do, someone with a guaranteed deal has to go ( Fav ?).

Turner looks like a guy who wants the ball in his hands and can create his shot anytime he wants on the floor. The Celtics need that when/if the clock winds down.

Thornton played a little d in the passing lanes and even passed the ball once or twice last night.

Will Thornton ever smile???

I mean come on man lighten up!


112288

Rather than repeat all of the above.....
I'll look at the other side of this fence.

The Knicks are in a whole world of trouble and I will love to see just how the self proclaimed "greatest coach" does as a GM. I was just soooo tired listening to the Knick announcers talk about the "vaunted" triangle offense every time down the floor. You would think that the Celtics should not even be on the floor simply because of that...then the great basketball mind Spike Lee will present a special explaining the "triangle" to the Knick fans....that should be a ratings bonanza.

By the end of the third quarter when reality was sinking in. Clyde Frazier was commenting on Derek Fisher's cloths and how nice he looked. Pitiful.

As for the "triangle" Jackson/Fisher doesn't have Kobe or Michael running it.

As for the C's...

Can Rondo make this group run even better? No JG either last evening.

beat

This is the kind of energetic bball I've been waiting to see for years. I agree with kj that playing as many guys as possible is key, and greatly to our advantage. No reason not to go all out, when you're not expected to last 36 minutes. And nothing keeps you motivated more than playing; it's hard to have ubuntu, when u butt is nailed to the bench. Also impressed with Pressey's improvement and hope we keep Powell. Hawk

hawksnestbeach wrote:This is the kind of energetic bball I've been waiting to see for years. I agree with kj that playing as many guys as possible is key, and greatly to our advantage. No reason not to go all out, when you're not expected to last 36 minutes. And nothing keeps you motivated more than playing; it's hard to have ubuntu, when u butt is nailed to the bench. Also impressed with Pressey's improvement and hope we keep Powell. Hawk

Agree and to add

240 total minutes to spread out.

I'm not going to try to dole out each players minutes but I will say this......
I see no reason anyone on this team should be playing beyond 30 MPG. Injuries withstanding. Plus by playing more players fewer minutes you have less chance for an injury perhaps, players will remain fresher and also perhaps be more inclined to be ready as they know they will be getting some regular time. And then when the injuries do occur as they always do, the replacement is more than ready to play a bit more.

I know we thought we were deep in the past when in truth once we got to the 8th or 9th player the drop off was severe, this team sure appears different. I know Sam and others have used the term continuation, well to me what better way is there for continuation than being able to play at a constant pace for 48 minutes on the second games of back to back on the road deep into the season. Different combinations will lead to more contributions. Center still may remain our weakest link.......but it's not like it's that bad and how many teams have a truly dominate one anyway?

On to Toronto and lets see what we got there.

beat

beat wrote:Rather than repeat all of the above.....
I'll look at the other side of this fence.

The Knicks are in a whole world of trouble and I will love to see just how the self proclaimed "greatest coach" does as a GM. I was just soooo tired listening to the Knick announcers talk about the "vaunted" triangle offense every time down the floor. You would think that the Celtics should not even be on the floor simply because of that...then the great basketball mind Spike Lee will present a special explaining the "triangle" to the Knick fans....that should be a ratings bonanza.

By the end of the third quarter when reality was sinking in. Clyde Frazier was commenting on Derek Fisher's cloths and how nice he looked. Pitiful.

As for the "triangle" Jackson/Fisher doesn't have Kobe or Michael running it.

As for the C's...

Can Rondo make this group run even better? No JG either last evening.

beat

Beat

I have never got the impression that the Knicks are collectively a group with a high basketball IQ. The key to running the triangle will be how melo plays. How long will it be before he gets frustrated and just wants the ball in his hands?

However the biggest problem with the Knicks is on the defensive side of the ball.

They have talent but they have a longer road to travel to implement the zen master's plan

dboss

I'm looking forward to the melodrama that always occurs in NY between owner James Dolan and those in the organization who can lay claim to knowing something about basketball.

There was a story that Dolan has sworn off meddling with the team and will instead concentrate on his career as a Kareokee grade blues singer with his band that has bought their way on to various stages with Dolan money.

We'll see if a leopard can change its spots.

Dboss

Michael Jordan is not walking thru that door
Scottie Pippin is not walking thru that door
Kobe is not walking thru that door
Shaq is not walking thur that door
Gasol is not walking thru that door.

Marcus mentioned in his first year at Syracuse in about the second week that he had already been in classrooms for longer than Melo ever was.

Even then Melo was a me baller but thanks to some luck and some great role playing by some other pretty good college players they won the whole thing....but that was now 11 long years ago and will be 12 come next March. Knicks are an older team and will break down. Amarie is a shell of his former self I'll be surprised if he contributes at all come February. Fisher will be looking over his shoulder ALA Mike Brown if not this year then next.

They might not have hit the "berg" yet but it's right in their path. Zen"master" or no zen master. And to add there ain't enough lifeboats.

beat

Hi,
So far, the 1st and the 2nd games remind me a very muddy water with only a few objects that can be identified, e.g. Steady Eddy aka Bass, Bull in china shop aka Sully. The very positive aspect of this water is it's moving and very fast. Which brings me to my main concern or rather biggest question mark: will RR go with the flow? Or will he try to change it with his stubbornness, talent and status? The 2 or 3 times they showed him on the bench he looked kind of subdued - usually he's much more vocal.
As for NYK, I was wondering if 'Melo's got mania grandiosity - thinks that he's greater than Lebron and Dwade and can get away with murder?
Also, that game showed a possibility that Coach Fish can follow steps of other New York coach - Kidd.

I can't wait to see JG - how Brad shuffles him and ET. And still very unimpressed by Zeller.
Next is Toronto - much better team than the first 2.

AK

I spent the day at Alcatraz (just visiting) and missed the first 9-10 minutes of the game and then had to miss the 2nd half, so I can't comment directly on the game other than my little window into it and the comments made on the Game On thread and the boxscore.

Zeller isn't looking good.  He had 2 rebounds last night in 15 minutes.  Joel had the same in 8 (and a steal).  I'm not saying Joel should replace Zeller, I'm just pointing out that this is the 2nd game Zeller has underachieved. He leaves his feet on defense and that almost guarantees a whistle. He bailed Melo out once and there was no need. Melo had nowhere to go except straight up into him.

In two games I have yet to see us walk the ball up once.

There was a 3-on-2 fast break in the 2nd quarter with Turner having the ball in the center and he didn't even look at his running mates.  I like what he's bringing us but he does not appear to be comfortable without the ball.

Smart is all over the place.  He has a nose for the ball.  Good instincts.  You can't teach instincts.

Crash with another horrible box score.  Melo too.  Connection?  Hell yeah.  Go Crash!

Thornton with 3 steals and 5-10 shooting.  Judging from the Game On thread he seems to be endearing himself to members of the board.

15 TOs for us vs 28 for them.  Ok, that's two games in a row where turnovers killed the opposition.  Can you imagine if that keeps up during the regular season, when regulars are playing the heavy minutes?  Hell, only generating 20 TOs would be a slump and that would still win us a bunch of games.

Only 80fgas for us, not so great, but 48.8% fg% with 14 fast break points.

22 assists on 39fgm for 56% with Smaht leading the way with 6.


I've felt for years that teams that win in pre-season are often losers during the regular season.  That's because the teams that win in pre-season are teams playing their regular players more and the losers are veteran teams who are playing bubble players to see who gets cut.  While I don't think we're going to suddenly become the San Antonio Spurs I do think that, maybe, this year I'm wrong.  I'm thinking that because we're burning a new system in and it seems to be taking root.  Our players are young (another reason why we're not the Spurs) but the core (Sully, Kelly, Pressey, Rondo) are all high IQ players as are other players (Bass, Green, Wallace).  Not including Turner, who sounds like he lives in the video room, and Bradley and Smart that's still 8+ players who will pick up good habits and systems faster and that's all we need to start the season.  We're looking like we're starting to develop a bit of an identity, based upon the 5+ quarters I've seen so far.  We don't walk.  We have better player movement.  We have better ball movement, although some of the passes are lazy because they're passing to a place and not always eyeballing the place first to see where the defender is.  After a ridiculously poor 1st quarter in the first game, we're hitting our shots (Thornton deserves credit for firing that up).  No shot blocking still makes for weak interior defense but our perimeter defense looks pretty good.  Our rotations could be better (mostly Zeller) but they're good enough to offset our poor baseline defense.  



bob



.

This roster is really very deep except at the 5 spot.  

I'm seeing improved defense from kelly and I like the help defense.  

This is probably not going to be a team that plays 8-9 guys each game.  I think they can go 10 deep and if they continue to run teams off the court, the rotation could run to the end of the bench.

Two preseason wins does not a season make, however it serves as a template for the team to fully embrace uptempo basketball and continuous player and ball movement.


I saw KO take the ball off after a NY score and he immediately passed it down the court.  This is old school basketball where you can and should still run after a made basket by the opposition.

Speaking of KO, his 3 point shot really looks good.  Sully made 3 last night so it is hard to argue with that but we shall see if Sully can be a consistent long range shooter.

What is it about NY teams that makes them think they are all that?  

dboss

Some nice (very) early signs.

Smart looking as good as advertised.  If last night wasn't a fleeting thing, Pressey looking like he's much improved over last season. Hopefully he can maintain what we saw last night, we could be 3 deep at the 1 if so.  Kelly looking like he could be the 5 he ought to be.  Who knows?  Maybe the center depth chart goes Kelly, Zeller and Anthony.

Turner and Thornton looking like good addtions and Snoop Dogg adding depth and toughness at SF after his knee surgery.  Sully getting it done on the boards.

Makes you wonder what happens when Green, Young and Rondo get into the mix and Zeller gets it in gear.

Hopefully this continues.  It could end up being an entertaining group.

NYCelt wrote:Some nice (very) early signs.

Smart looking as good as advertised.  If last night wasn't a fleeting thing, Pressey looking like he's much improved over last season.  Hopefully he can maintain what we saw last night, we could be 3 deep at the 1 if so.  Kelly looking like he could be the 5 he ought to be.  Who knows?  Maybe the center depth chart goes Kelly, Zeller and Anthony.

Turner and Thornton looking like good addtions and Snoop Dogg adding depth and toughness at SF after his knee surgery.  Sully getting it done on the boards.

Makes you wonder what happens when Green, Young and Rondo get into the mix and Zeller gets it in gear.

Hopefully this continues.  It could end up being an entertaining group.

NYCelt,

The depth chart might be Kelly, Zeller, Anthony (maybe even Kelly, Anthony, Zeller) because Zeller isn't getting the job done and not just because Kelly's starting to look more comfortable at 5.

I was watching the Celtics in a bar last year and the guy next to me turned to me and asked "Who's Predator?". He was referring to Crash. He looks like The Predator from that movie series. Makes sense, Crash plays defense like a predator.



bob



.

Bob

Zeller actually did a few things in the second half offensively. Not much but a few. Made a 10-12 footer in the lane and seemed a bit more comfortable, albeit he needs to show a LOT more. Anthony won't move in front of him on the depth chart  barring a total collapse by Zeller. Here is the Yahoo play by play late 3rd quarter.

1:50 Boston
Tyler Zeller makes a 9-foot hook shot in the lane. Assist: Brandon Bass
1:38 Boston
Personal foul on Dwight Powell
1:29 Boston
Shooting foul on Dwight Powell. Tim Hardaway Jr. to shoot 2 free throws
1:29 New York
Tim Hardaway Jr. hits the first free throw
1:29 New York
Tim Hardaway Jr. hits the second free throw
1:14 Boston
Dwight Powell misses a layup
1:12 Boston
Tyler Zeller offensive rebound
1:12 Boston
Tip in by Tyler Zeller



Only 2 games in with a new team. We'll know more soon enough. But certainly not as good as I was expecting.......yet.

beat

I am not sure if I watched a different game last night, but Zeller looked much better against the Knicks. He is rounding into the system slowly for sure....but he is miles better than Joel Anthony. Hell, is Zeller cant pull his weight - I think you see Powell getting minutes before Anthony does.

Anthony doesn't even look at the basket when he is out there, he is fine as a stop gap - but Zeller has a lot more upside. I think the Coach will give him a chance to prove himself a lot over the pre season.

I agree that it's much too early to pass judgment on Zeller.  He looks to me as though he's always a half step behind.  That could be a function of his not being used to the kind of uptempo ball being played by the Celtics.

However, I don't see an excuse for his not running the floor as his reputation would lead one to expect.

KJ, I used the word "persistent" in another thread to describe the Celtics' offense.  Your word "relentless" is much more appropriate.

And their defense wasn't much behind.

Sam

All the good stuff has been covered.  Just a few observations:

• The Celtics constantly got the ball in positions to succeed.  This indicates a good "feel" for where teammates like the ball. Rather unusual this early in the "getting acquainted" process.

• While the focus of analysis is rightfully on the offense, what really put the game out of reach for the Knicks was the prevent defense utilized by the Celtics.  Yes, the offensive pace tired the Knicks, but the energy the Knicks expended trying to prevent the close guarding and hedging of the Celtics sealed the deal.

• This game was an excellent example of how pushing the ball can lead to an infections confidence level.  Smart was probably the best example, bombing away from outside with complete assurance (even a fallaway shot in one case).  It was obvious that he was "feeling it," and the more easy baskets that are created by pushing the ball, the better all the players will "feel it" even on lower percentage shots.

• If Zeller had been a half second quicker on his moves, he could have had a nice little performance for himself.  As it was, he certainly showed improvement over the first game.  But it would be a major stretch to consider a tandem of Zeller and either Olynyk, Sully or Bass to be as effective as the duo of Sully and Kelly.
.
• Kelly continues to amaze me with his consistent improvement.  Last night, he showed much better anticipation in sliding over to help thwart Knicks' layups.

• The word "help" is important, because active help defense appears the only way the Celtics will be able to defend down low.  They used a flex defense that collapsed when the Knicks went to the hoop.  Ironically, that's the same defense that stymied the Celtics' offense  so frequently last season.

• Based on this game, there's not a lot to differentiate the abilities of Turner and Smart as far as the Celtics' passing game goes.  Turner probably has a more extendive repertoire and better timing in general; but Smart can be very effective on the pick and roll, displaying very good anticipation.

• Other than the big men, Turner strikes me as the most reliable offensive option on the team.  He seems to have more offensive versatility than anyone else on the team. I want him on the floor down the stretch in tight games, as he's a constant threat; and I don't see him as a major liability on defense.  Put it this way; he has the potential create more points than he gives up.

• Speaking of defense, I'm becoming impressed with Thornton's anticipation and alertness on the defensive end.  And, at the slightest hint of an offensive thrust by the Celtics, he's in the offensive end in a flash.

• I hope Young's injury won't keep him out very very long.  He needs as much opportunity as possible to create an early profile in terms of his strengths and weaknesses.

• Crash continues to amaze me on defense.  He absolutely frustrated Carmelo on more than one occasion last night.  I thought Crash's persistence threw off Anthony for much of the game.

• Did anyone notice that the Spurs, with the starters averaging 30 minutes, lost by a point to a Berlin, Germany, team?

Sam

Couple of additions

In the post game show, Chris Mannix - who I dont see as a big basketball mind, called out for his first point of contention - KO and the fact that Andrea Barnagini (sp) beat him a few times on the offensive end. Totally discarding all the other good things Kelly did, and in turn proving he is yet another second rate analyst.

I heard some of the usual Jeff Green Haters brigade talking about Turner and Green not being able to co-exsist, and Turner looking better etc.....I do not see it at all. I think they would work well together and they each do something the other cannot. Green is an up quick, driver who gets in trouble when the game slows down and he has to create out of a set offense.

Turner is the opposite, who is a good shot maker - but is clearly not athletic enough to lead the break. I see them being very good on the court together - with Green taking a first run up the court, if nothing is there, the ball is kicked back out and Turner goes to work on his man - 1 on 1. I see no conflict whatsoever.

Sam I too am very surprised at all the good things Turner can do. On Sullys first basket, Turner was at the top of the key dribbling with his left hand freezing his defender who didn't know if he was gonna shot or slash, he flicked a beautiful pass with his left hand, threading the needle for an easy Sully finish with Sullys left hand, great spin move by Sully and great pass/play by Evan....this is the type of play that Jeff Green doesn't have in his game.

Going forward I see Turner cutting into Jeffs minutes, especially on his off nights.