'This Kid's For Real'

As much as Rondo can see things developing on offense, Smart has that same ability on defense. He reads the defense extremly well and plays the best position defense of anyone on this team. It is time to get him more minutes.

dboss

dboss wrote:As much as Rondo can see things developing on offense, Smart has that same ability on defense.  He reads the  defense extremly well and plays the best position defense of anyone on this team.  It is time to get him more minutes.

dboss

Heck, I'd start him over Bradley, let him soften up the starter and Bradley can continue the pressure later. I'd be surprised if Smart is even close to being in good game shape either after coming off that ankle sprain, if his outing was "playing" his way into shape.....imagine what it will be like when he is in shape.

Regardless as you say he does need his minutes.

beat

On defense, where Smart's concerned, it was mainly a case of when," not "if." It was his gutsy offensive play.  Anyone can want the ball, but relatively few can back up that desire with success once they get the ball.  But it was his shooting that stood out for me offensively, and (despite his 5 assists in that game—Turner had 8 , the jury's in deep deliberation about his floor general skills as far as I'm concerned.  Keeping an open mind, though, because this team keeps surprising me in positive ways.

Sam

'This Kid's For Real'

Yes.  He is.

Since about this time last year I've thought, here's a starting quality NBA 2-guard, just about wherever he lands.  Right now that's where he belongs, starting at 2-guard, and I think I can safely say that's he where will end up reasonably soon.  Unless Rondo leaves.  In that case Smart is clearly our point-guard. Should that happen, Smart will enter the conversation as to where he fits among the top 10 or so point guards in the league within a year.  Should he stay at two, we'll be having the top 10 conversation about that spot soon enough as well.

With some combination of two or more from among Rondo, Smart, Bradley and perhaps Thornton, our back-court looks good going forward.  Now the focus can be applied to the three forward positions, and what we need to do there.  Which forwards stay, who goes, who we can draft or somehow acquire.  If we're fortunate, in a couple of seasons it may just be a matter of managing that routine year-to-year change in bench depth, and we'll be on our way back to being a competitive team.

This is a nice start to build from, but be patient, especially with Smart.  Young players often hit speed bumps, and there's still a lot of work to do.

NYCelt,

I assume you deliberately excluded Turner from a possible backcourt combination of the future.  Do you mind sharing your reasons?

Thanks,

Sam

sam wrote:NYCelt,

I assume you deliberately excluded Turner from a possible backcourt combination of the future.  Do you mind sharing your reasons?

Thanks,

Sam

Sam,

Sure, happy to do so.

I'm still not sure where Turner fits, and although a 2 and 3 are basically interchangeable, I think of him as more of a 3 and as more of a front-court player/small forward.  By that definition I exclude him from the backcourt; at least in this system and alignment Stevens has been using.  Although I like Turner, I'm still waiting to see if he can be consistent enough over time to be part of the long-term conversation.  From my observation, he's about fifth in line in terms of overall ability when considering the four guards I mentioned.  It's not that Stevens hasn't tried him there enough, I just think he's about the fifth best fit we have at guard when looking at the total offense/defense picture.  Right now I like him at 3, pushing Green to keep it going and helping to provide a balanced attack on offense from that spot with his minutes.

Regards

NYCelt wrote:'This Kid's For Real'

Yes.  He is.

Since about this time last year I've thought, here's a starting quality NBA 2-guard, just about wherever he lands.  Right now that's where he belongs, starting at 2-guard, and I think I can safely say that's he where will end up reasonably soon.  Unless Rondo leaves.  In that case Smart is clearly our point-guard. Should that happen, Smart will enter the conversation as to where he fits among the top 10 or so point guards in the league within a year.  Should he stay at two, we'll be having the top 10 conversation about that spot soon enough as well.

With some combination of two or more from among Rondo, Smart, Bradley and perhaps Thornton, our back-court looks good going forward.  Now the focus can be applied to the three forward positions, and what we need to do there.  Which forwards stay, who goes, who we can draft or somehow acquire.  If we're fortunate, in a couple of seasons it may just be a matter of managing that routine year-to-year change in bench depth, and we'll be on our way back to being a competitive team.

This is a nice start to build from, but be patient, especially with Smart.  Young players often hit speed bumps, and there's still a lot of work to do.

NYCelt

I am so thrilled with Smart's defense I failed to even mention his ability to score the basketball.

I do not think he is a PG or a SG.  I think he is a combo guard and as such is an excellent fit in the motion offense that Stevens is trying to incorporate.  There are still some things I am waiting to see because it does impact what this roster looks like down the road.

Avery Bradley has been mentioned by Sam as a possible candidate to be traded but I would be  reluctant to pull the trigger too soon.  Barring an injury to Rondo or Bradley, this will be the first year where they play together over an extended period of time.   The sample size for this paring is still relatively small.  Smart appears ready to step  at either position although his ability to run the pick and role with Zeller, in particular, needs to be explored.  

I do not see Turner as a shooting guard either.  I think he is a slasher and as long as he does not try to make mindless decisions on the court he can be very effective at several positions.  I think that makes him very valuable.  He may not be that deep shooter that is required at the 2 or 3 because he has an in between game.  Thornton will probably be gone after the year is completed unless him and his expiring contract is moved during the year.  We have James Young waiting in the wings and he could prove to be a relaible long distance sniper although his handle needs a lot of work to excel in the mid-range game.

I think Boston has quality depth in the backcourt.

dboss

I guess I think a little more of Turner than others do.  There's no question in my mind that he's a combo guard with the ability to fill in when necessary at SF.  With Jeff Green averaging more than 34 mpg and other possible candidates to back him up over time, I don't see many minutes for Turner at that position on a regular basis.  I think the notion of one player "pushing" another is vastly, vastly overrated, especially after a rotation is pretty well set.  Right now, Jeff Green is pushing himself, and I think his focus is much more on collaborating with Evan than competing with him.

I don't think of Turner so much as a candidate to be a classic "1," as I don't believe his knowledge and instincts for being the orchestra conductor go very far.  However, he's one of the most active Celtics in the half court game.  This fact, combined with his arsenal of shots, suggest to me that he could be an ideal "1" in Brad's motion offense.

As far as his playmaking abilities, he sees the floor well and is a pretty good and opportunistic passer.  Assists are only a part of playmaking; but it is noteworthy that (although he's at only half of Rondo's level), Evan is very close to Pressey and way ahead of Smart in assists per minute.  (Don't even bother to remind me that Smart's full potential at the "1" position can't be accurately evaluated for quite some time, if ever.  I'm just focusing on what I've already seen, not what I might or might not see in the future.)

Personally, I'd be happy with a four-man rotation of Rondo, Smart, Turner, Thornton and Young at the guard positions or even (for a short period of time) Turner, Smart, Thornton, Young and Pressey IF it meant the Celtics could somehow get the right intimidating center by including Rondo in a trade.  I believe it would easier and quicker to work out any kinks in either of those scenarios than to work out the major void at the defensive center position.

Sam

Sam, your reasons for not including Bradley in this guard rotation?

sam wrote:I guess I think a little more of Turner than others do.  There's no question in my mind that he's a combo guard with the ability to fill in when necessary at SF.  With Jeff Green averaging more than 34 mpg and other possible candidates to back him up over time, I don't see many minutes for Turner at that position on a regular basis.  I think the notion of one player "pushing" another is vastly, vastly overrated, especially after a rotation is pretty well set.  Right now, Jeff Green is pushing himself, and I think his focus is much more on collaborating with Evan than competing with him.

I don't think of Turner so much as a candidate to be a classic "5," as I don't believe his knowledge and instincts for being the orchestra conductor go very far.  However, he's one of the most active Celtics in the half court game.  This fact, combined with his arsenal of shots, suggest to me that he could be an ideal "5" in Brad's motion offense.

As far as his playmaking abilities, he sees the floor well and is a pretty good and opportunistic passer.  Assists are only a part of playmaking; but it is noteworthy that (although he's at only half of Rondo's level), Evan is very close to Pressey and way ahead of Smart in assists per minute.  (Don't even bother to remind me that Smart's full potential at the "5" position can't be accurately evaluated for quite some time, if ever.  I'm just focusing on what I've already seen, not what I might or might not see in the future.)

Personally, I'd be happy with a four-man rotation of Rondo, Smart, Turner, Thornton and Young at the guard positions or even (for a short period of time) Turner, Smart, Thornton, Young and Pressey IF it meant the Celtics could somehow get the right intimidating center by including Rondo in a trade.  I believe it would easier and quicker to work out any kinks in either of those scenarios than to work out the major void at the defensive center position.

Sam

I didn't see AB in your analysis, is this assuming we trade AB for another piece???

It's tough contributing when you can't watch the games.


Back when I was able do so it seemed to me that Evan Turner played best as a ball-in-hand half court point guard.  His activity level and involvement dropped way down when the ball was not in his hands and I didn't see him running fast breaks either.  Has that changed?  Maybe this is just a quibble over definitions,  but I see a "slasher" as someone who moves without the ball, especially from high to low, in the half court.  Doing that on a fast break doesn't make you a "slasher", it makes you a "wing" or a "trailer" or one of those terms that suggests speed.  Turner does seem to have a sneaky good, not fast but effective, crossover dribble which allows him to change direction quickly and penetrate with the ball in the half court and set up his teammates.  The reason for making this point is that if he needs the ball to be effective, then how effective would he be in a motion offense where the players and the ball all move?  It would be great if he was a slasher (by my definition), but I didn't see that in the preseason or first few regular games I was able to watch.

Also, in the classic terminology, point guards are "1" and centers are "5" with the numbers increasing as the players play bigger positions.  Rondo is a classic "1".

I'm enjoying these discussions.  I don't know of any way of watching the games on a 'Droid so even if the infrastructure in my next country, Thailand, offers the bandwidth to be able to watch them (the state of the Internet in Myanmar is US circa mid-1980s) I still won't be able to watch them so I'm getting "my fix" from you all.




bob




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Bob, thanks for pointing out that a point guard is a "1."
I thought maybe Sam was trying to solve our center problem by moving him to the "5." After all, he is a helluva rebounder.

Yes, typically a 1 is the point-guard.

In a 3-out 2-in motion offense, the 5 is typically left-side low post.

In the Princeton, which we often run with Kelly, the 5 sets up low and flashes high post.  It seems more often I've seen it run with the 5 on the right side, but I've noticed us running a variation with Kelly on the left.

In a 5-out, it's immaterial in a way, since the 5 usually crosses from one corner to the opposite elbow.  Perhaps that was where Sam was coming from.  I've seen Turner set up in the corner on that one.

Worcester and Shamrock,

I didn't include Avery because, when I said I'd be happy with the rotations I listed that meant I wouldn't scream if he were trade bait.  I probably should have explained that; sorry for any confusion.

Bobh, Worcester and NYCelt,

That's the second time I've gotten the numerical designations for the positions reversed.  Thanks for catching it.  Maybe I can find a way to build it into spell check because, when I get on a posting roll, I'm less likely to worry about obvious errors in details and more likely to assume people will listen to what I mean.  If I weren't so obstinate in refusing to use the term "point guard," I wouldn't have to seek synonyms that don't exactly roll off my tongue.  But such is life.

Bob, Turner's a pretty good penetrator, whether or not he qualifies as a "slasher" by various definitions.  I haven't seen him running fast breaks either, and I have to assume it's not a strength.  Ideally, if Rondo were no longer with the club, they'd get a replacement floor general who, among other things could run a decent fast break even if he didn't record triple doubles or even average double digits in assists.  Pressey might possibly qualify; but there's something that keeps me from viewing him as anything except a stopgap sub at best.  It will be interesting to focus on Turner's transition play in the "1" (not'5") position over the next bunch of games as well as joming in on his defense at various positions.

Sam

Sam,

I cross things up more often speaking than writing, especially when I get going on something rapid-fire.  I totally get your "listen to what I mean" comment.  I do it all the time with football, especially this past season.  I've actually told the team 'just listen to what I mean, not what I say.'  Kids or my assistants would correct me with a bigger smile each time.  By the end of the season, one of my assistants would simply yell out "what coach meant is..."

When I tell Nancy to 'just listen to what I mean,' however, I just get an "uh-huh," and the usual look of disbelief.

Regards

NYCelt wrote:Sam,

I cross things up more often speaking than writing, especially when I get going on something rapid-fire.  I totally get your "listen to what I mean" comment.  I do it all the time with football, especially this past season.  I've actually told the team 'just listen to what I mean, not what I say.'  Kids or my assistants would correct me with a bigger smile each time.  By the end of the season, one of my assistants would simply yell out "what coach meant is..."

When I tell Nancy to 'just listen to what I mean,' however, I just get an "uh-huh," and the usual look of disbelief.

Regards

NYCelt,

Btw, I gotta give you some props here. You were extolling Smart's virtues from Day 1. You were high on him during the pre-draft threads and hopeful Danny would take him.

Good eye.


bob



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