Lex Nihil Novi - Russell vs Chamberlain, Game 81

Sam

Other than your below comment I won't take the time to comment on your other remarks since over the next few weeks our feeling on this subject will be quite clear.
   As to your below comment.

" By all means, take your best shot at presenting "the other side."  Verbally tear down all the banners and denigrate Red and all the players.  I'll be extremely interested in your approach, and I'm already champing at the bit to comment.  All I suggest, partly in deference to the rest of the board and partly because it's right in my wheelhouse, is that you consider avoiding tired, boring and inappropriately used stats—especially in comparing eras."

  Lets get one thing straight Sam. Those Celtic teams, and players in particular, of the 50's and 60's are by far my favorite Celtics. Denigrate Red and all the players just because I happen to believe that later generations are better players and teams? I guess I'm Just not as fanatically inclined, as you are,  towards those Cousy- Russell years and as a result I can take views that others may very well disagree with.
   And I will be using stats. Loads of stats. Right down the middle of the plate for you to swing at.

 swish

No doubt West was a great player as was the Big O and Hondo, however as the game evolved over time, the players evolved and developed more skills, ofcourse better athleticism, look at just the ball handling of Kobe or Lebron, they have ball handling skills that were non existent in the 60's. The moves they use now, the step back, cross over, the hang time, etc....players of today have so many more moves, more speed as they copied their idols and it kept evolving, its not just athleticism even though that level is clearly there.

West's career FG% was 47.4 which would be excellent for a guard today. Unlike many players from the 60's to early 70's, he regularly took shots from what would have been three point range so his FG% from within 23 feet was almost certainly higher.

There are some players that would be in the elite regardless of the era. West and Kobe are certainly among them.

Frazier and Robertson had one aspect of their games that is no longer seen much today: namely a midrange power game. I can't seem to remember either of them taking shots from much beyond 18 feet. Instead they would penetrate into the heart of the defense and get close-in shots.

Sloopjohnb wrote:West's career FG% was 47.4 which would be excellent for a guard  today.  Unlike many players from the 60's to early 70's, he regularly took shots from what would have been three point range so his FG% from within 23 feet was almost certainly higher.

There are some players that would be in the elite regardless of the era.  West and Kobe are certainly among them.

Frazier and Robertson had one aspect of their games that is no longer seen much today: namely a midrange power game.  I can't seem to remember either of them taking shots from much beyond 18 feet.  Instead they would penetrate into the heart of the defense and get close-in shots.

ever hear of Paul Pierce?

Cow

Thinking he is referring to the era before the three point shot basically just no need for people back then to routinely fire from way out, still only 2 points.

beat

"...players of today have so many more moves, more speed as they copied their idols and it kept evolving..."

One advantage today's players have which was unavailable to those from earlier eras was the innovations of the greats from earlier eras. How many 12 year olds spent countless hours trying to copy West or Robertson or Hondo or Russell and in the process created their own variations?

"ever hear of Paul Pierce?"

Yes, I think the name rings a bell.

Bob Ryan once compared Pierces game to Chet Walker's.  I think that there was a great deal of validity in the comparison.  Both were about the same size. Niether had blazing speed but both had excellent footwork and were deadly one-on-one guys.

One difference though was that Pierce has a three point shot befitting a modern scorer.   We don't know if Walker could have developed three point range but we do know that there was little incentive to do so

My point about Frazier and Robertson was how many guards or wing players today whose teams depend on their scoring take almost all their shots from within 18 feet?

Sloopjohnb wrote:"ever hear of Paul Pierce?"

Yes, I think the name rings a bell.

Bob Ryan once compared Pierces game to Chet Walker's.  I think that there was a great deal of validity in the comparison.  Both were about the same size. Niether had blazing speed but both had excellent footwork and were deadly one-on-one guys.

One difference though was that Pierce has a three point shot befitting a modern scorer.   We don't know if Walker could have developed three point range but we do know that there was little incentive to do so

My point about Frazier and Robertson was how many guards or wing players today whose teams depend on their scoring take almost all their shots from within 18 feet?

right good point, like bob said the rules definitely influenced the evolution of the game, on Chet Walker, he was a fierce in the paint player, Pierce despite his limited athleticism, still had the footwork and ball handling to torch foes from the perimeter. And despite his limited athleticism, like Bird he could score on anyone.

cowens/oldschool wrote:No doubt West was a great player as was the Big O and Hondo, however as the game evolved over time, the players evolved and developed more skills, ofcourse better athleticism, look at just the ball handling of Kobe or Lebron, they have ball handling skills that were non existent in the 60's. The moves they use now, the step back, cross over, the hang time, etc....players of today have so many more moves, more speed as they copied their idols and it kept evolving, its not just athleticism even though that level is clearly there.

Cowens,

I don't want to get involved in the same old era comparison debate, but I'll make a couple of observations about this West vs. Kobe comparison. I think you're selling West short.

Don't underestimate West's athleticism. He was very quick and a tremendous leaper. He had tremendous elevation on his jump shot. Kobe is taller than West by a couple of inches, but I personally don't give Kobe an edge in leaping ability. Most of the clips we see of West are from his later years, when the years had taken a toll on his legs, and we don't have flashy clips of him dunking because players generally laid it in unspectacularly in those days. Here's a short video of his pull-up jump shot:



That ability to stop on a dime combined with the body control to be in balance on the shot and the quick release rivals Steph Curry and demonstrates tremendous athleticism.

As far as the moves you refer to ("the step back, cross over, the hang time, etc....players of today have so many more moves, more speed as they copied their idols and it kept evolving"), I agree that players of each era copy those that came before them and add to it, but a HUGE factor is how the game is reffed. In West's days, you had to keep your hand on top of the ball when dribbling, and carrying or palming the ball would be called on practically every player on every dribble today. Many of the moves you think of in the modern game are only possible because the players can carry the ball.

As far as stats go, here are a few:

• Despite the tighter rims and lower FG percentages in those higher-pace days, West's career FG percentage is 47.4, compared to Kobe's 45.1.

• West is the only player from a losing team ever awarded the finals MVP, for the 1969 "balloon game" finals. Despite very worthy players on the Celtics -- Havlicek averaged 28.3 points, 11.0 rebounds, and 4.4 assists; Russell averaged 9.1 points, 21.1 rebounds, and 5.1 assists and was of course tremendous in non-stat ways -- West won it by averaging 37.9 points, 4.7 rebounds, and 7.4 assists.

• West averaged 30 points or more seven out of 13 years in the playoffs, and he averaged 40.6 points in the 1965 playoffs (they lost to the Celtics in the finals). Kobe averaged 30 points or more five out of 15 years in the playoffs, with a high of 32.8 in 2007. The only player to ever average more than West's 40.6 for a playoffs was Michael Jordan (43.7), but that was for only three games when Chicago got swept by Boston in 1986.

• Career playoff averages -- West 29.1 points, 5.6 rebounds, 6.3 assists, 46.9 FG%. Kobe 25.6 points, 4.8 rebounds, 4.3 assists, 44.8 FG%.

• West's point totals would be even better if they had the three-point shot. He made plenty from distance.

On the defensive side of the ball, Kobe was obviously very good, but no less an authority than Red Auerbach said about West, "What people don't realize is that Jerry was one of the greatest defensive guards ever."

I can't go by the "ring count" standard because West played during the same time as the greatest dynasty that team sports has ever seen, and Kobe didn't. The Russell Celtics beat the Lakers in the finals six times during West's career, which is of course dominant, but that is misleading because many of those series were razor-thin close. I can't fault West for falling just short of beating the best team ever, and the Celtics themselves didn't fault him either.

Kobe is a tremendous player and competitor, no doubt about it. The purpose of this post isn't to denigrate Kobe. What I want to do is hopefully shine a light on what a great player West was.

No less an authority than Bill Russell has said that West was a BETTER defensive player than an offensive player.

Kobe is one of the all time greats but if I had to choose I'd take West not because he had better skills but because he would make a better teammate than Kobe.

West's former teammates speak of him with reverence. The same cannot be said about Kobe. That Laker team with Shaq won three straight titles and had a few more in it but it all fell apart in a gigantic pissing match of egos.

West would have found a way to keep the team on the straight and narrow.

Swish,

Of course you won't answer my most recent post because it makes a lot of legitimate points that completely blow your premise about me out of the water.

Plenty of stats?  I can't wait.  Seriously, I'm literally peeing my Depends in anticipation! 

I'm pine-tarring the bat and impatiently awaiting the first spitball.

Sam

Outside wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:No doubt West was a great player as was the Big O and Hondo, however as the game evolved over time, the players evolved and developed more skills, ofcourse better athleticism, look at just the ball handling of Kobe or Lebron, they have ball handling skills that were non existent in the 60's. The moves they use now, the step back, cross over, the hang time, etc....players of today have so many more moves, more speed as they copied their idols and it kept evolving, its not just athleticism even though that level is clearly there.

Cowens,

I don't want to get involved in the same old era comparison debate, but I'll make a couple of observations about this West vs. Kobe comparison. I think you're selling West short.

Don't underestimate West's athleticism. He was very quick and a tremendous leaper. He had tremendous elevation on his jump shot. Kobe is taller than West by a couple of inches, but I personally don't give Kobe an edge in leaping ability. Most of the clips we see of West are from his later years, when the years had taken a toll on his legs, and we don't have flashy clips of him dunking because players generally laid it in unspectacularly in those days. Here's a short video of his pull-up jump shot:



That ability to stop on a dime combined with the body control to be in balance on the shot and the quick release rivals Steph Curry and demonstrates tremendous athleticism.

As far as the moves you refer to ("the step back, cross over, the hang time, etc....players of today have so many more moves, more speed as they copied their idols and it kept evolving"), I agree that players of each era copy those that came before them and add to it, but a HUGE factor is how the game is reffed. In West's days, you had to keep your hand on top of the ball when dribbling, and carrying or palming the ball would be called on practically every player on every dribble today. Many of the moves you think of in the modern game are only possible because the players can carry the ball.

As far as stats go, here are a few:

• Despite the tighter rims and lower FG percentages in those higher-pace days, West's career FG percentage is 47.4, compared to Kobe's 45.1.

• West is the only player from a losing team ever awarded the finals MVP, for the 1969 "balloon game" finals. Despite very worthy players on the Celtics -- Havlicek averaged 28.3 points, 11.0 rebounds, and 4.4 assists; Russell averaged 9.1 points, 21.1 rebounds, and 5.1 assists and was of course tremendous in non-stat ways -- West won it by averaging 37.9 points, 4.7 rebounds, and 7.4 assists.

• West averaged 30 points or more seven out of 13 years in the playoffs, and he averaged 40.6 points in the 1965 playoffs (they lost to the Celtics in the finals). Kobe averaged 30 points or more five out of 15 years in the playoffs, with a high of 32.8 in 2007. The only player to ever average more than West's 40.6 for a playoffs was Michael Jordan (43.7), but that was for only three games when Chicago got swept by Boston in 1986.

• Career playoff averages -- West 29.1 points, 5.6 rebounds, 6.3 assists, 46.9 FG%. Kobe 25.6 points, 4.8 rebounds, 4.3 assists, 44.8 FG%.

• West's point totals would be even better if they had the three-point shot. He made plenty from distance.

On the defensive side of the ball, Kobe was obviously very good, but no less an authority than Red Auerbach said about West, "What people don't realize is that Jerry was one of the greatest defensive guards ever."

I can't go by the "ring count" standard because West played during the same time as the greatest dynasty that team sports has ever seen, and Kobe didn't. The Russell Celtics beat the Lakers in the finals six times during West's career, which is of course dominant, but that is misleading because many of those series were razor-thin close. I can't fault West for falling just short of beating the best team ever, and the Celtics themselves didn't fault him either.

Kobe is a tremendous player and competitor, no doubt about it. The purpose of this post isn't to denigrate Kobe. What I want to do is hopefully shine a light on what a great player West was.

Outside nice read...went and looked up West and learned a lot more about the High school and college day....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_West

Plus I saw this which supports what you say. (this is when West first came to the NBA)

However, West soon impressed his colleagues with his defensive hustle, with his vertical jump—he could reach up 16 inches above the rim when he went up—and with his work ethic, spending countless extra hours working on his game.[


beat

West was one of the best defenders at his position.  Kobe, not so much.

A case could be made that there was only one thing that prevented Jerry and mates from having a tremendous championship run.  That thing stood 6' 9", jumped high, and blocked a lot.  The Lakers, despite the routine heroics of Jerry, could never put the right combination (including an antidote to Russ) together during Russ' reign.

I've always felt that Kobe's style of play wasn't as dependably successful as a lot of people think. How many times have I posted that the best way to beat the Kobe Lakers was for him to go off for 25-30 points in the first half.  When he began to tire down the stretch, his teammates (who had basically been watching him operate) weren't in the flow of things and had difficulty developing a rhythm.

That was not true of Jerry.  He involved other players, was the consummate team player, and took over his team up only in response to team need—not because it was a habit.

Kobe belongs in the Pantheon of players who were/are team players as long as they were the face of the franchise.  In that group, I'd include Wilt, Barry, Jordan, C. Anthony, and Lebron—just to name a few.  Jerry belongs in the group that would literally sacrifice anything for the sake of the team.  In that group, I'd include every Celtic of all-time.  Right, Swish?

Sam

sam wrote:A case could be made that there was only one thing that prevented Jerry and mates from having a tremendous championship run.  That thing stood 9' 9", jumped high, and blocked a lot.

I know Russell was legendary, but I didn't realize he was nine feet tall. That would be a formidable obstacle for anyone to overcome.

Outside wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:No doubt West was a great player as was the Big O and Hondo, however as the game evolved over time, the players evolved and developed more skills, ofcourse better athleticism, look at just the ball handling of Kobe or Lebron, they have ball handling skills that were non existent in the 60's. The moves they use now, the step back, cross over, the hang time, etc....players of today have so many more moves, more speed as they copied their idols and it kept evolving, its not just athleticism even though that level is clearly there.

Cowens,

I don't want to get involved in the same old era comparison debate, but I'll make a couple of observations about this West vs. Kobe comparison. I think you're selling West short.

Don't underestimate West's athleticism. He was very quick and a tremendous leaper. He had tremendous elevation on his jump shot. Kobe is taller than West by a couple of inches, but I personally don't give Kobe an edge in leaping ability. Most of the clips we see of West are from his later years, when the years had taken a toll on his legs, and we don't have flashy clips of him dunking because players generally laid it in unspectacularly in those days. Here's a short video of his pull-up jump shot:



That ability to stop on a dime combined with the body control to be in balance on the shot and the quick release rivals Steph Curry and demonstrates tremendous athleticism.

As far as the moves you refer to ("the step back, cross over, the hang time, etc....players of today have so many more moves, more speed as they copied their idols and it kept evolving"), I agree that players of each era copy those that came before them and add to it, but a HUGE factor is how the game is reffed. In West's days, you had to keep your hand on top of the ball when dribbling, and carrying or palming the ball would be called on practically every player on every dribble today. Many of the moves you think of in the modern game are only possible because the players can carry the ball.

As far as stats go, here are a few:

• Despite the tighter rims and lower FG percentages in those higher-pace days, West's career FG percentage is 47.4, compared to Kobe's 45.1.

• West is the only player from a losing team ever awarded the finals MVP, for the 1969 "balloon game" finals. Despite very worthy players on the Celtics -- Havlicek averaged 28.3 points, 11.0 rebounds, and 4.4 assists; Russell averaged 9.1 points, 21.1 rebounds, and 5.1 assists and was of course tremendous in non-stat ways -- West won it by averaging 37.9 points, 4.7 rebounds, and 7.4 assists.

• West averaged 30 points or more seven out of 13 years in the playoffs, and he averaged 40.6 points in the 1965 playoffs (they lost to the Celtics in the finals). Kobe averaged 30 points or more five out of 15 years in the playoffs, with a high of 32.8 in 2007. The only player to ever average more than West's 40.6 for a playoffs was Michael Jordan (43.7), but that was for only three games when Chicago got swept by Boston in 1986.

• Career playoff averages -- West 29.1 points, 5.6 rebounds, 6.3 assists, 46.9 FG%. Kobe 25.6 points, 4.8 rebounds, 4.3 assists, 44.8 FG%.

• West's point totals would be even better if they had the three-point shot. He made plenty from distance.

On the defensive side of the ball, Kobe was obviously very good, but no less an authority than Red Auerbach said about West, "What people don't realize is that Jerry was one of the greatest defensive guards ever."

I can't go by the "ring count" standard because West played during the same time as the greatest dynasty that team sports has ever seen, and Kobe didn't. The Russell Celtics beat the Lakers in the finals six times during West's career, which is of course dominant, but that is misleading because many of those series were razor-thin close. I can't fault West for falling just short of beating the best team ever, and the Celtics themselves didn't fault him either.

Kobe is a tremendous player and competitor, no doubt about it. The purpose of this post isn't to denigrate Kobe. What I want to do is hopefully shine a light on what a great player West was.

I have great respect for West, rooting for the Celtics of the seventies, our biggest rival were the Reed-Clyde Knicks, whenever they played the Lakers I always rooted for the Lakers because I liked all that Jerry West represented. My point was more about defense, that the best of the 60's are just not as strong or explosive as the best of today and those moves I mentioned are staples of players of today and back then no one had come up with those moves, they just were not done at that time. I know West was a great defender in his time, I just don't think he could stop Kobe, as despite his ego and selfishness, Kobe who I think I mentioned I hated, was as unstoppable as Bird or Jordan on very many nights, he could put up 40 on anybody....and because he is the best of this modern era has moves the oldtimers couldn't dream of. If Walt Frazier could give West so many problems, what would Kobe do to him? West was the greatest of his era, but he never faced anything like a Kobe, a bloodthirsty ego maniac with voltage and elite skills comparable to MJ.

"I just don't think (West) could stop Kobe"

I don't either but then how many players now could stop Kobe.

West himself has an interesting perspective on offense and defense in crunch time:

From an interview with the Logo posted by Bob:

Q: You were nicknamed “Mr. Clutch.”

A: Never really thought about it a lot. It’s flattering that people would talk about that. I hear people talk about clutch players today, and a lot of ’em I don’t think are as good as advertised.



Q: What was it about those moments that you liked?

A: I thought it was easy to score. … And the reason I did is because teams didn’t want to foul you if the game was close. … I hear these announcers, what do they call it? … “Lock-down defenders” … I don’t know who’s a lock-down defender in the league. I know there’s a lot of good ones, but I haven’t seen someone to stop someone that’s a good offensive player.

No one player shuts down any really good player completely anyway. Never has happened never will.

Of course West would have trouble with Kobe....he 40 years older.

beat

Good one, Beat.  But don't forget that Kobe has had some injury-plagued periods.  It would be pretty close.  LOL.  

Sam

When a really great player gets on a roll even the best defender has to hold on and just hope the guy starts to miss.

I've heard Cousy say that Satch Sanders played great defense on Elgin Baylor when he set a playoff record by scoring 60 points.

Bird said the same thing about DJ when Jordan broke Baylor's record.

I remember Jordan dropping 49 points on the Celtics as they barely squeeked by the eighth seed Bulls in game one. But I wasn't worried. Nah. I said no way Jordan gets 49 the next game.

I was right. He got 63.

Bob,

Good point.  In era-to-era cases where the same stats or awards are not available for both periods (and sometimes where they are,as in the case of assists), comparisons unavoidably  become more a matter of observation.

Sam.

Lets add James Harden on that list of modern players that have come up with ankle breaking moves that were non existent in the 60's, hes really taken his game to another level.