Re: 2015 Playoff Thread

by **tjmakz** Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:31 am

I did not reply to Sam's post from the weekend because I wanted to let it die.
I won't change my opinion and neither will Sam, which is perfectly fine.

The basketball from the 50's and 60's is incredible different than today's game. Were they better players back then? No way. Of course, Chamberlain and Russell are all time greats in any generation. I doubt many players back then would make an NBA roster now in a league with 30 teams.

by **tjmakz** Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:33 am

The occasional cheap shot, clothes line or punch to an opposing player did not make them tougher than today's players who play by a different set of rules.

by **Sloopjohnb** Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:24 pm

"The basketball from the 50's and 60's is incredible different than today's game. "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkD4GRGdCZI

Link to game one of the 1954 finals between Minnenapolis Lakers and Syracuse Nationals. The lane had been widened from six to twelve feet and it was the last year before the 24 second clock.

The game reminds me more of the movie "Hoosiers" than the present NBA. And when I found out that the Lakers had a guard named Meyer "Whitey" Skoog and he was from Brainard Minnesota, I thought I was watching "Fargo" meets "Hoosiers."

Watching the video, I don't think anyone can say that George Mikan was a better player than, say, Zeller.

by **Sam** Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:11 pm

Cow, thanks for the compliments about being a "knowledgeable expert who will outwork/outwrite everyone." Your deflection last time was, "It's your board." Anything to keep from recognizing the possibility that I might just actually be right in my assertions.

"Outworking and outwriting," even if those characterizations were accurate, mean nothing if there are no basic truths from which to work. My concern about some pretty compelling points being ignored (at least twice in some cases) had nothing to do with beating a dead horse. They stemmed from posts that were made in response to my posts but which ignored some of the most important parts of my posts. I can only assume those important parts were considered unanswerable. There's certainly no regulation against that evasive device; but I'd hate to think that I ever—even once—failed to tackle, head-on, any key element of a post directed to me.

Anyway, I feel I've discharged my responsibility for doing my level best to prevent the revision of basketball history. I've countered every opposing sentiment; have tried to make the experience informative by sharing some perspectives on the past that I don't think had been widely considered; have accommodated the continually fluctuating definitions (from poster to poster) of what we've even talking about; have been honest in my use of statistics and objective in citing the countless impressions that have been forged through years of experience and a photographic memory; and have tried to be respectful and civil under occasionally trying circumstances.

This is it for me in this discussion. But I guarantee that, as long as I'm around here, I'll take major issue with revisionist basketball history.

Go Celtics!

Sam

by **cowens/oldschool** Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:44 pm

sam wrote:Cow, thanks for the compliments about being a "knowledgeable expert who will outwork/outwrite everyone." Your deflection last time was, "It's your board." Anything to keep from recognizing the possibility that I might just actually be right in my assertions.

"Outworking and outwriting," even if those characterizations were accurate, mean nothing if there are no basic truths from which to work. My concern about some pretty compelling points being ignored (at least twice in some cases) had nothing to do with beating a dead horse. They stemmed from posts that were made in response to my posts but which ignored some of the most important parts of my posts. I can only assume those important parts were considered unanswerable. There's certainly no regulation against that evasive device; but I'd hate to think that I ever—even once—failed to tackle, head-on, any key element of a post directed to me.

Anyway, I feel I've discharged my responsibility for doing my level best to prevent the revision of basketball history. I've countered every opposing sentiment; have tried to make the experience informative by sharing some perspectives on the past that I don't think had been widely considered; have accommodated the continually fluctuating definitions (from poster to poster) of what we've even talking about; have been honest in my use of statistics and objective in citing the countless impressions that have been forged through years of experience and a photographic memory; and have tried to be respectful and civil under occasionally trying circumstances.

This is it for me in this discussion. But I guarantee that, as long as I'm around here, I'll take major issue with revisionist basketball history.

Go Celtics!

Sam

and I still think the greatest team of all time was the 86 Celtics and thats not gonna change and your team is the 63 Celtics and your not gonna change....alrighty then.

by **steve3344** Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:30 am

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/6/3/8705951/lebron-james-warriors-vs-cavaliers-nba-finals-2015

by **cowens/oldschool** Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:10 am

So Steve whats your take/prediction on the Finals?

by **steve3344** Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:23 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:So Steve whats your take/prediction on the Finals?

GS in 5

by **worcester** Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:41 am

It's like comparing Sophia Loren with Kate Upton. Different eras.

by **bobheckler** Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:44 pm

Klay Thompson and Maurice Speights are both cleared to play in Game 1.

That will last only until Dellavadova dives for Klay Thompson's legs...

bob

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by **bobheckler** Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:20 pm

Steph Curry's pre-game ball-handling warm-up drill:

bob

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by **bobc33** Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:25 pm

Hope Evan Turner is watching how low Steph dribbles.

by **cowens/oldschool** Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:47 pm

Cavs had lead whole game, then got cold late, game in OT!!! great game

by **cowens/oldschool** Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:48 pm

Cavs missed last 12 shots in a row!! and have yet to score in OT

by **bobc33** Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:50 am

Kyrie Irving hurt in OT and looks serious. Cavs won't win the series unless he can play close to his normal game. Even if he does I think GS in 6.

by **Sam** Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:07 am

Happened onto the overtime when searching for the late news, which was delayed. Great to see the Cavs miss 12 consecutive shots at the end. G.S. may be a great offensive team, but they won the overtime strictly on great defense. Lebron and mates couldn't get anything at all going.

Sam

by **sinus007** Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:59 am

Hi,
I think it just came to the game of attrition. Lebron is not a young pup any more, can't play 40+ minutes with high efficiency. KI is hurt, so he can produce only so much. The other 6 players are just scrubs who can produce in spurts only.
On the other side were 10 players, relatively healthy, who just outran the opposition.
IMHO, coach Steve outplayed coach Dave using that weakness.

AK

by **bobc33** Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:16 am

I wonder how Mark Jackson feels calling this series? It must be awkward.

by **bobheckler** Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:33 am

For those who do not know, I live in the San Francisco bay area. I try to root for the local teams (Warriors, Giants, Sharks, even the A's and Raiders) as long as they are not playing MY team.

I have to admit, I was a little edgy when the Dubs (as in "the Dubyas") went down by 15 points early on and dropped back to a double digit deficit more than once after that. Edgy, but not alarmed. We've seen that happen many times over the season. Just as we saw that no lead was safe with the Celtics, especially in that awful first half of the season, no deficit was an insurmountable obstacle for the Dubs. We couldn't throw the ball in the bay in the first quarter and I wasn't TOO worried because there are just so many shooters on this team to miss for the whole game. We just had to keep it within shouting distance. I was getting frustrated at the reliance on the 3 pt shot though. Not enough cutting to the front of the rim (I say that about us too).

Mark Jackson is an idiot. "Hands down, man down!". WTF does that mean? If there is one funny part of that team it's that Jackson tries to be cool (like during the Houston series when he kept referring to Harden with his step-back jumper as "step daddy". Oooh, look at me! I know what "Mac Daddy" means and can play off that! Aren't I cool?) and instead comes across as a middle-aged man trying to be hip past his shelf life and Jeff Van Gundy will say something comical as he tries to keep up. The difference is that JVG knows he's just goofing around and plays the role, Jackson thinks he's a cross between Denzel Washington and Richard Pryor.

1. Iggy is glue. He's not the guy who will lead you to the promised land, but he is still doing all the little things he did in Philly. Smart, hard-working and doesn't make a lot of unforced, boneheaded mistakes. You can beat him, but he doesn't beat himself and he made some BIG plays at key junctures last night. Not enough credit goes to Steve Kerr for asking Iggy to come off the bench and not enough credit goes to Iggy for accepting this new role and embracing it (same thing can be said about Brad and IT. We'll see if that flies next season when IT has a whole training camp under his belt. Will he still be happy coming off the bench?). I thought LeBron got away with murder last night, bouncing Iggy around like that and not getting any offensive foul calls? The Warriors have a couple of glue guys: Iggy, Green and Barnes. We have Crowder and that's about it (Smart could turn into one with more experience. So could Jerebko, if he's here next year). Jeff Van Gundy (that would be the intelligent one of the NBC color commentators) pointed out how people say "so-and-so could be LeBron if only they could be more consistent, but if they were more consistent then they'd be him, because consistency is the hallmark of greatness!". If JVG wasn't thinking about Jeff Green I don't know who then. Back to the original point, glue guys give you consistency, the more the merrier and the Dubs have more.

2. LeBron played 46 minutes and, I thought, I saw him getting tired towards the end. He had a week off and big minutes are already starting to wear him down. With or without Irving, if LeBron can't play 38 minutes a game at his normal high energy and power levels they are in trouble. Hit some big shots though. He also took 40% of all of Cleveland's fgas. His legs, though, his legs were starting to go on him a bit towards the end I thought. He's only 30 but he has been in the league, playing heavy minutes against some very big and strong men, since he was 18. The old adage about cars is true here too: it's not the years that count, it's the mileage. LeBron has a lot of miles on his body already.

3. Mozgov showed good instincts cutting to the hoop for jams but that's about it. He did muscle Bogut around pretty well. So did Tristan Thompson for that matter. There's another player who I think is looking a little fatigued, Andrew Bogut. If you'll notice, Festus Ezeli finished the game and played the OT, not Bogut. I didn't hear anything about an injury to Bogut, so...A couple of big blocks by Bogut early and then he turned into a rag doll to get thrown around.

4. Initial reports show no damage to Irving's MCL or ACL, he's going to have a full MRI on the knee today. That's good, big picture, but if it's even a strained ligament it spells doom for the Cavs. I'm not convinced the Cavs can beat the Dubs with Irving, they definitely can't without him. Then again, Kevin Love went down in game 4 against us and Tristan Thompson has gotten his minutes and has turned into a board monster of epic proportions, so who knows who may step up? Irving's are some big sneakers to fill though. Those two blocks on Steph Curry were outstanding. A little lackadaisical by Curry but great effort by Irving. The second one, the one that didn't put us up at the end of regulation, almost cost us.

5. I thought Shumpert did about as good a job defending Curry as you can and Curry still scored 26 on 10-20. He was 2-6 from 3. When Curry only takes 6 3ptrs and hits only 2 and you still lose, you missed a golden opportunity that doesn't come around often.

6. I was screaming all game for Klay Thompson to drive on JR and everybody else Blatt put on him and stop with all the 3s (which is what I yell about us all the time too). He's a very complete player. He plays good defense and when he gets hot can throw them in just as easily as Curry. Minny insisted Thompson as part of the deal to get Kevin Love and that killed it. GSW is real happy they did too.

7. Maurice Speights, also known as "Mo Buckets", provided offensive punch, but is a middlin' defender at best. If a bench player can trade buckets with the other team until the starters are rested and ready to come back in then he has done his job and that's what Mo Buckets did. Talk about stepping in shit, though. He was on Cleveland two years ago and came to GSW last year. Would he rather be in the bay area, playing with Steph Curry and this team or living in Cleveland and playing with The King and his Little Prince? It's no-brainer for me, but I'm biased.

8. Out of a total of 265 player minutes in OT, Cleveland's starters played 204 of them, 77%. GSW's starters played 188, 71%. The 46 minutes by LeBron, in particular, will become a factor if this goes 6 or 7. If Irving misses even one game then LeBron's minutes will not go down but the likelihood of this going 6 or 7 does.

9. Cleveland has no back up center. How else do you explain that, in an OT game, Mozgov played 33 minutes and Perk never took off his warmups. I wonder if we could pry Festus Ezeli away from GSW? He's very raw offensively but he is a very good defender.

1 down, 3 to go. If Irving is out for anything more than 1 game or is not near 100% when he does play then these next 3 will come sooner rather than later.

Baghdad-by-the-Bay was rockin' last night. I've already got a BBQ party followed by the game set up for Sunday.

bob

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by **cowens/oldschool** Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:03 pm

Lebron was definitely tired at the end, hes only human, with no Love, and now with Irving possibly out, and with all the defenders Dubs can throw at him, gonna be tough for him. Why do you call them Dubs bob?

by **sinus007** Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:14 pm

Bobh,
Thanks for the good summary.
Speaking about Mark Jackson, agree 100%. BTW, I've got a glimpse of Hubie Brown at or close to the announcers' table. Why, oh why he wasn't part of the crew!!!
Why Warriors are called Dubyas?

AK

by **cowens/oldschool** Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:56 pm

sinus Hubie Brown does the ESPN Radio, I've listened to him in the car on my way home at night, hes excellent....Mark Jackson is terrible.

by **Outside** Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:58 pm

First, a couple of notes.

• It's "Dubs," which is short for "double u" (W), which is short for "Warriors." Like George W. Bush was "Dubya," except shortened one bit more.

• I think Hubie Brown is doing the radio broadcast.

Now [deep breath], I'll make an attempt to write something coherent.

I'm here on this board as an NBA fan, but I am a born and bred Warriors fan. For many years, it's been easy for me to be a relatively objective NBA observer and admire good teams and players around the league because the Warriors haven't been contenders in literally decades.

But this postseason, I've been a basket case. The dog is finally getting used to my fist pumps and clapping outbursts, but my son did not recognize the crazy man he shared the family room with last night. My wife went to another room after the first quarter.

So although I am hardly viewing these playoffs, and particularly these finals, with a calm, analytical eye, I did have a moment of relative sanity after last night's game.

I desperately want the Warriors to win this series, of course because I'm a fan, but also because I framed this as Basketball Good versus Basketball Evil. I am doubly behind this Warriors team because of their aggressive, smart, cohesive team defense, their desire to play uptempo and fast break, and their individual offensive skills showcased by excellent ball and player movement. They play inspiring team basketball.

The Cavs, on the other hand, have come to represent Basketball Evil. LeBron's a great player, but I cannot tell you how much I despise the isolation basketball he prefers, clearing out half the court so that he can turn the game into a one-on-one contest. I despise how much he dominates the ball individually and how he just bulls over defenders. They are the antithesis of team basketball.

Game 1 pretty much played out that way, particularly the iso-heavy, LeBron-dominated offense by the Cavs. However, once I'd calmed down after the game, I came to the realization that there are some caveats to the black-and-white, Good-versus-Evil matchup that I'd worked up in my head.

I hate the iso-LeBron offense, but realistically, what else can they do? They certainly can't play ball-movement, player-movement basketball anywhere as well as the Warriors, and they'd get blown out if they tried. LeBron are Kyrie are very good players, Mozgov is surprisingly serviceable offensively (at least in a limited way), but the rest of their rotation is full of one-trick ponies.

The Cavs defense is really, really good. The loss of Kevin Love hurts them offensively in a big way, but there is no doubt that they are significantly better defensively. These guys are tough. Kyrie is far better than the paper defender he was portrayed as. Even J.R. is playing pretty well at that end. I'd say that LeBron is actually one of their worst defenders -- as an on-ball defender, he isn't nearly as agile as he once was, and as an off-ball defender, he makes some poor decisions. But I appreciate good defense, and the Cavs play very good defense.

Game 1 was there for the Cavs to steal, and they missed their chance. It's a shame Kyrie got hurt, because I'd like to see the Warriors beat the Cavs without that asterisk (which I believe they would have, even if they'd lost game 1). I still hate isolation basketball, especially taken to this clownish extreme, and I would be devastated on so many levels if it was rewarded with a title, but I at least recognize that the Cavs have no other chance, and I have to give them respect for the way they play defensively.

Now all I want is for the Warriors to crush their souls.

by **Sam** Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:05 pm

Nice to hear from you, Outside. I've been wondering when you might be bursting to post; and this one was definitely worth waiting for. Of course, anyone who can't stand isolation basketball is okay with me from the outset. And I thoroughly enjoyed the way you graciously pointed out that iso was the Cavs' only option while backhandedly noting how limited they are.

Agreed about Irving. I've ALWAYS wanted the Celtics to beat the other team at their best, if only to avoid all the yahoos who will later point to every hangnail of the opponent as the reason the Celtics won.

Anyway, I know a lot of us are rooting for Golden State, and my love of the area means I may have more than the normal number of reasons. Did you know that the G.G Bridge just celebrated its 78th birthday on May 28? The reason I know is because so did I. They call it Karma.

Good luck to the Warriors.

Sam

by **RosalieTCeltics** Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:23 pm

The NBA has a nerve. They started the game with Johnny Most's voice, telling fans they were getting ready to do Basketball Battle, and they refuse to put him in the HOF~ I thought I would jump thru the screen!!! This is a real issue for me, Chick Hearn is already in there years ago. See if they repeat it the next game.

Go Warrior!!!!!

Rosalie

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