Re: 2015 Playoff Thread

by **worcester** Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:08 am

Amazing that Johnny Most is not in the HOF.

Re the Finals, as much as I like GS, I would prefer that they'd played the Cadavers at full strength. With Irving and Love gone folks will be making excuses for Cleveland for years.

by **dbrown4** Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:01 am

That's tragic about Kyrie. Worcester, I'm with you about full strength. But what happened to us in Game 6 vs. LAL in 2010 with Perkins happens to every team. Injuries are part of the game.

If there ever was an MJ moment where LeBron has to step up to the plate, this scenario has it written all over it. It would behoove GSW to check out and consume all the SAS v. MIA and early CLE playoff runs and how those teams played LeBron when it was a one man show and even when he had some support but still lost. LeBron is much further down the track than then, but the result is the same. One man does not win championships. Teams do. LeBron is probably the only person that can pull this off. It should be an interesting watch, though.

LeBron is going to be dogged for the ages. He's potentially entering the outskirts of the Wilt Chamberlain neighborhood if CLE comes up short here. Not bad company but not where most greats want to wind up. That will be 2-4 record in the Finals. And time and age is going to start going against him from here on out.

But if anyone can make it happen, he can. Never underestimate the heart of a champion.

db

by **dbrown4** Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:41 pm

BTW, in watching the playoffs, how did Danny fan on Mozgov and Spreight? Spreight is like a KG whose death jump shot is two feet closer to the basket yet he never misses. Mosgov would have just about shut all of us up here who want a center with just about everything.

db

by **Outside** Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:10 pm

dbrown4 wrote: One man does not win championships. Teams do. LeBron is probably the only person that can pull this off.

In my view, LeBron's greatest strength is his greatest weakness. He is the most supremely unstoppable individual force in basketball today, yet that has led him to believe that the path to victory is to rely on his individual greatness, not the power of "team." He views the other players as supplements to his individual greatness instead of seeing them together as part of cohesive whole.

From everything I can tell, he honestly believes his individual prowess is the the path to a title. Certain elite players -- Russell, Bird, Magic, Walton, Duncan -- are just wired from the start to believe in team basketball, while other elite players -- Wilt and Michael Jordan come to mind -- had to learn how to integrate their individual greatness into the service of the team.

Last year's finals showed me that LeBron hasn't learned that lesson. For someone who is so supremely talented and has won so many games by relying on his belief in his singular individual ability, it has to be a difficult lesson to learn, especially with the media and his inner circle reinforcing the storyline of his individual greatness, the entire Cleveland franchise bending their operation to satisfy his personal wants and whims, and all of Cleveland and northeast Ohio viewing him as a savior.

The Cavs do everything they can to satisfy him and his entire entourage, they let him overrule the coach about what offense the team would run, and the let him leave for a sabbatical during the middle of the season. How exactly is a guy who answers to no one supposed to learn to subvert his ego and his abilities to the greater good of team basketball? How would he react to Popovich berating him for a missed assignment, treating him like everyone else like he does with Duncan?

It's not that Blatt doesn't have it in him to be the guy in control (warning -- language):

But in Cleveland, this is how the player-coach relationship works.

LeBron played team ball for a while in Miami. Riley was a smart and strong GM who built a team around his abilities, not just put a bunch of players around him. Spoelstra doesn't get enough credit for implementing both an offense and defense that emphasized LeBron's team-enhancing abilities. But when Wade became a shell of himself last year and they faced a well-oiled, diversely talented team machine in last year's finals, LeBron fell back to individual beast mode because it's what he truly believes in.

Instead of learning from the beatdown to team play by last year's Spurs, I suppose LeBron rationalized that loss somehow and doubled down on his belief in his individual prowess. He ran from Riley's exhortation that this is hard and that they should stick together, was apparently offended by it, and went back home, to Cleveland, and to his belief in his ability to win with his individual greatness.

We'll see if he ever learns the lesson of "team" that Wilt and Jordan did. For now, his greatest strength remains his greatest weakness.

dbrown4 wrote:BTW, in watching the playoffs, how did Danny fan on Mozgov and Spreight? Spreight is like a KG whose death jump shot is two feet closer to the basket yet he never misses. Mosgov would have just about shut all of us up here who want a center with just about everything.

I agree about Mozgov. The most anyone knew about him was getting "Mozgoved" by Blake Griffin. He was nowhere near this impactful in New York or Denver, but David Blatt knew what he could be from coaching Mozgov on the Russian national team. He's bigger than I thought, reasonably agile for such a big guy, a pretty good rebounder and rim protector, can catch lobs and dunk over people, and is a good free throw shooter. I'm impressed.

Speights, on the other hand -- if I'd been drinking coffee, I might have sprayed it all over the screen reading a comparison to KG. Yeah, I get that they're both big guys with a good 20-footer, but Speights is not exactly a great defender, and it just feels so wrong to bring up any sort of comparison to someone whose very essence as a player was defined by being one of the greatest defenders in the game.

Speights is a nice sub who can step in and make shots, and his confident ability to make those shots on the biggest stage helped turn around game 1 when most of the young Warriors were initially overcome by the finals stage. I'd like to leave it at that.

by **Outside** Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:45 pm

One other thing -- I've grown increasingly surly that the entire storyline and vast majority of media coverage after game 1 has been about the Cavs. Yeah, I get that Kyrie's injury is a big story, but I'm tired of listening to people talk about how the Cavs (or LeBron) lost it instead of how the Warriors won it.

For the first quarter, the Warriors definitely felt the pressure of being in the finals for the first time, but they settled in after that. After their abysmal start, they won the second quarter by seven, won the third quarter by three, were even in the fourth, and won overtime by eight. They won the game. If they weren't up to the task, they would have folded in the fourth quarter, but they didn't. They stuck with their strategy, stayed the course, and came away with a win despite not shooting well or playing great overall.

This is their win. Besides the Kyrie story, I'm tired of everything else in the aftermath of the Warriors' win being about the Cavs and LeBron. I hope the Warriors show the rest of the series why this is about them and how they play, just like last year's finals was about the Spurs and how they played.

And yeah, I get the irony of saying this after writing another post three times as long about LeBron. But I hope that will be the last extended discussion I have about him in the finals and that the Warriors rise to show why they should be the topic of conversation.

by **dbrown4** Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:31 pm

I'm with you, Outside. And I was only focusing on the offensive end for Spreights and KG comparison. Defense another story.

Unfortunately, this whole year has been about LeBron and CLE. The press will slowly come around if GSW win tonight by a secure margin and realize they are reluctantly on the wrong horse. It took them forever to come around in the SAS v. MIA series. Lebron is like sex. He sells.

db

by **worcester** Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:49 pm

Again, too bad Love and Irving are hurt. GW's winning the title will be diminished as a result. The Warriors would have won anyway, but now LeBron has an excuse.

by **dbrown4** Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:59 pm

I don't know. I expect a herculean effort out of LeBron and CLE tonight. So much so, I expect them to win. Not by much, but to win.

db

by **worcester** Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:58 pm

The Cadavers one hope is that JR Smith lights it up. 27 points from him, 40 from Lebron. 16 from the Russian and they stand a chance. Otherwise no chance.

by **cowens/oldschool** Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:45 pm

worcester wrote:The Cadavers one hope is that JR Smith lights it up. 27 points from him, 40 from Lebron. 16 from the Russian and they stand a chance. Otherwise no chance.

good call worse, they need this to win, but don't agree that with Love and Irving GS would still win cause they're the better team.

by **worcester** Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:12 pm

GS would certainly have their hands full with LeBron, Kyrie AND Love. We'll never know. At least not until next year.

by **cowens/oldschool** Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:39 pm

WOW!!! Lebron just hit a dagger 3 putting Cavs up 11 with less than 2 minutes left!! hes got 34 points and a triple-double.

by **cowens/oldschool** Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:40 pm

sorry 3 minutes left, my bad.....

by **cowens/oldschool** Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:53 pm

tie game on Curry drive, 7.2 seconds left

by **cowens/oldschool** Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:55 pm

OT!!!

by **Sloopjohnb** Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:28 pm

Enshrine Dellavadova!!! Enshrine Dellavadova!!! Enshrine Dellvadova!!!

But seriously, the dude's one tough hombre.

JR Smith is a knucklhead.

by **cowens/oldschool** Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:28 pm

Kudos to Lebron, my joints hurt just from watching how exhausting this game was, ugly game....state of the NBA.

any of Birds teams woulda killed these teams

by **bobc33** Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:56 pm

Big win for LeBron and the Cavs tonight. The lackluster performance by Steph Curry had me wondering if he is the type of player (cool as he looks) that doesn't thrive on the biggest of stages. Worth watching closely....

by **Outside** Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:46 am

dbrown4 wrote:I don't know. I expect a herculean effort out of LeBron and CLE tonight. So much so, I expect them to win. Not by much, but to win.

db,

You pretty much nailed it.

The Warriors did a good job of coming back in the fourth and force the OT, then coming back in OT and getting a lead, but they didn't get the rebound they needed.

Their offense was just atrocious tonight. Besides Curry's awful shooting, they had long stretches where they abandoned the ball and player movement that has made them so successful.

They had to lose to Memphis to find their game again, and I'm optimistic that they can do the same against the Cavs. The series is 1-1 after two games, same as last year. We'll see if the Warriors are worthy of the crown.

by **steve3344** Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:45 am

Here's a record I never thought Stephen Curry would own: Most missed three-pointers (13) in an NBA playoff game.

He actually had more turnovers (6) than made baskets tonight (5).

Wow.

Cleveland shoots 32.2% and wins the game. Cavs defense is greatly improved with Kevin Love out. They made Curry's life miserable and while he can say he never got in rhythm in the game, there was a defender sticking close to him virtually all game. Even Dellavadova put in a superb effort defending him. It was brick city for both teams tonight. Ugliest stat is the combined 17 of 62 on threes.

I do think this might be Cleveland's only win in the series though. I expect GS will now amp things up like they did when Memphis temporarily showed they would be a challenge.

by **cowens/oldschool** Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:56 am

Also JR Smith and Shumpert shot terribly and Thompson, who I love, gave them nothing offensively and Lebron missed so many shots/opportunities to close the game, he went 2-12 FG in 4th and overtime....and they still won.

Some boneheaded end game strategy going on, Cavs had 11 point lead with 3 minutes left, then GS started hacking Thompson, forcing him to the line, so Cavs took him out. This is exactly when Warriors made their comeback as they attacked the rim and crashed the offensive boards hard, cutting lead to nothing, doing it without the 3. Why didn't Cavs go to Mozgov right at this time? This sequence showed me as many mighty 3 point shooting mites you might have, you STILL need the big man.

by **Sam** Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:58 am

I didn't watch the game. But I'm wondering how much of Curry's poor showing owed to the Cleveland defense. I know Steve made reference to this. For example, I notice Shumpert played more than 30 minutes despite minimal offensive input. How much of the time was he guarding Curry? There's no player's offense that can't be defended under the right circumstances. And it would make sense for Cleveland to realize they're not going to have a shot in this series based mainly on their offense; so they'd naturally go all-out on defense. They were also pretty well rested for this game.

Sam

by **cowens/oldschool** Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:07 am

Sam you should watch the games, its the Finals, its the where the state of the game is, the latest trends and strategy. Curry had a John Starks type of game, the guy that got in his face defensively the most was Dellavadova, Shumpert was mostly on Thompson.

by **cowens/oldschool** Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:11 am

....seeing clips of Della shutting down Steph on First Take right now, Della really can defend, not a great athlete, but tough as nails with great anticipation.

by **Sam** Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:23 am

Cow,

Thanks, but not interested in watching unless the Celtics are involved. The Celtics are the state of the game in terms of what matters to me. If the state of the game, latest trends and strategy were exemplified by the way the two teams apparently played last night, I'm good with looking in other strategic directions. For example, I don't believe watching last night would have exactly won my affection for the trend toward emphasis on the three-point game. If a game's going to be close, I prefer it to be close because both teams rose to the occasion rather than struggling equally.

Credit the Cavs for winning, and hope G.S. prevails in the long run. That's about it as far as I'm concerned. I have a lot going on in my llfe, including enjoying evenings with my wife without having to look at a schedule to see if I'm "free." I definitely keep up with what's going on in the NBA, as my continuing posting will attest; and, if there's a key play in the finals, I'll watch it on video.

But I'm happy if others are enjoying these games, and I can empathize with what Outside and his family are going through. I'll never forget the feeling of the boulder in the stomach at crunch time.

Sam

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