Robert Upshaw = Major Fireworks

Sam, there's a 100% chance we can upgrade the center position in the long term in this draft.

And there's an 80% chance the oncourt center of our dreams will be available at #16.
The only question is whether he'll be here in 4-5 years. He might even be gone in a year or two.
That guy is Robert Upshaw, kicked off two college teams and a graduate of drug rehab.

There are two other trade-up possibilities, but they are both light in the pants and get pushed around, which requires us to acquire yet another center of the Perkins mold for those situations against 270+lb centers. But it would take a lot to trade up for them, and we'd still need another center when we already have Zeller and KO who fit the bill of quality overall centers with more room to get better.
So it would take a lot of assets to move up and get one of them, and it would take another asset to draft or trade for a big body.

So ideally we would want and get a full bodied center, and ideally we'd want to draft him right at our current draft position, #16.

Amazingly, it has an 80% chance of happening. It's just that there's a 20-40% chance we part ways in the next few years. I'm okay with that.

If Robert Upshaw just failed drug tests for marijuana in college, or even if it was something worse, like coke, it's not a big deal really.

Something like 80% of NBA players smoke weed, and many/most drink alcohol.

I met a girl who went to Kansas with Paul Pierce and she said he was always high. Always.
Was Pierce selfish to smoke weed like a typical college kid or typical NBA player? I suppose so. Whatever.
Pierce was also a more than recreational drinker right up until Ray and KG arrived, and even afterward. That's why he got stabbed 11 times in a nightclub.

Carmelo Anthony may very well be a high functioning alcoholic. So was Allen Iverson throughout his prime.

Ty Lawson, subject of our trade desires, is a very regular drinker and I think has a couple DWI's. His coach last year canceled shootarounds on game days because too many of his players were hung over and couldn't retain any info from the shootarounds when game time came around, and they were sleepy at game time too.

Barkley and Bird were both big drinkers from what I understand. I heard the story, and perhaps you can correct me, that when Bird signed his rookie contract the first thing he bought was a pickup truck with a cooler in the middle to hold a six pack.

Long story short, the things that can get you kicked off a team in college are things some, or most NBA players do every day.

Upshaw also showed a me-first attitude at his first college, and that me-first attitude reared it's ugly head at his last college stop when he started hearing about how he was a top 10 draft pick.

The NBA is full of selfish players, although few of them have been forced to learn the hard lessons that Upshaw went through. I'll take a guy with selfish tendencies and self-awareness over selfish with no self-awareness.

Realistically we won't have a chance at Towns, Okafor, Turner, etc but this kid with baggage can physically do just what this team needs, in life there are always risks. I think he'll be worth the risk as hes the best shot blocker in the draft right now and I'm sick of puking watching us get dismantled inside with Z and KO....we were a pathetic team with no rim protection that shouldn't have gotten near the playoffs AND that was proven in the playoffs.

rambone wrote:If Robert Upshaw just failed drug tests for marijuana in college, or even if it was something worse, like coke, it's not a big deal really.

Something like 80% of NBA players smoke weed, and many/most drink alcohol.

I met a girl who went to Kansas with Paul Pierce and she said he was always high. Always.
Was Pierce selfish to smoke weed like a typical college kid or typical NBA player? I suppose so. Whatever.
Pierce was also a more than recreational drinker right up until Ray and KG arrived, and even afterward. That's why he got stabbed 11 times in a nightclub.

Carmelo Anthony may very well be a high functioning alcoholic. So was Allen Iverson throughout his prime.

Ty Lawson, subject of our trade desires, is a very regular drinker and I think has a couple DWI's. His coach last year canceled shootarounds on game days because too many of his players were hung over and couldn't retain any info from the shootarounds when game time came around, and they were sleepy at game time too.

Barkley and Bird were both big drinkers from what I understand. I heard the story, and perhaps you can correct me, that when Bird signed his rookie contract the first thing he bought was a pickup truck with a cooler in the middle to hold a six pack.

Long story short, the things that can get you kicked off a team in college are things some, or most NBA players do every day.

Upshaw also showed a me-first attitude at his first college, and that me-first attitude reared it's ugly head at his last college stop when he started hearing about how he was a top 10 draft pick.

The NBA is full of selfish players, although few of them have been forced to learn the hard lessons that Upshaw went through. I'll take a guy with selfish tendencies and self-awareness over selfish with no self-awareness.

and in my younger years I used to be in the nightclub business and used to see a ton of professional athletes out till 3-4 in the morning, it was no big deal.....

It's even possible that Upshaw has a better career than Okafor and WCS, and that Upshaw ends up a better center than Turner. I'm very high on Turner, but mostly at power forward. He has toothpick legs like WCS, and I think he's better suited to PF like LaMarcus Aldridge or Anthony Davis. Excellent player, but not a full time center.

If I was in the NBA, I'd definitely have a couple beers after games, and I'd probably smoke after games too. In fact, smoking can keep you from going out to the clubs, help you get to sleep since you're wired from a night game, and you'd probably drink less because you weren't out in a club.

Two beers, a joint, some TV, and asleep by 1 am.

I remember attending a Celtics/Nets game in New Jersey in 2006. It was a Sunday afternoon, and the only player on either team who was even trying was Al Jefferson. Everybody else was out late enjoying the NYC nightlife, it would seem.

That's probably a hidden key to the Knicks and Nets historical mediocrity.

This is the second time within a week when I've agreed with Cowens.  Either (1) one of us has had a frontal lobotomy or a bottle in front of me or (1) we were both really in tune all the time and were just too stubborn to admit it.  Upshaw sounds like a reasonable risk-reward situation to me.

I think there's such a thing as constructive selfishness.  Self-esteem that's rooted in having a healthy sense of self-respect, a keen sense of self-awareness, and motivation that is forged from deep within the self is different from profligate, gratuitous, ego-centric, self-serving behavior.  With the right kinds of self-awarness, desire, and external guidance, the grasping kind of selfishness can often be converted to the more constructive form.  I believe Brad is the perfect type of coach to help guide Upshaw through this task—especially when it involves a comparatively younger player.

Sam

Yup, could be the perfect Brad the Builder This Old House fixer upper.

And unlike James Young, Upshaw comes with both the mentality and the tools to get on Brad's good side.

He's not only a better and more natural shot blocker than WCStein, but he's a better rebounder for some of the same reasons: instincts. Not to mention being 16 lbs heavier and 5 months younger.

Rambone, You've convinced me. I told myself not to get excited about this draft, not to covet any player not yet, or not likely to be a Celtic. But like Cowens and Sam, that dynamic duo, I want a full-fledged CENTER. Upshaw fits the bill and we may have the right coach to coax him along past the pitfalls. Just hope his stock doesn't rise too quickly outside of Boston. Hawk

Ask Milwaukee how Sanders worked out.

I wouldn't count on Upshaw being our starting center but to each his own.

seems like a lot of excitement because the guy is tall. we all knew that.
Like I said worth the gamble at 28 or 33 but not for me at 16.

Towns, Okafor, Cauley-Stien and Turner I would pick over him every time.

I guess this is why God invented crap shoots and risk/reward scenarios.  You takes your risks and your chances.  If a young Bill Russell were in the draft today, would we all be agonizing over some skinny one-dimensional guy who was undersized for the position? It takes some vision, folks, and that's the dimension that most separates the professional decision-makers from the amateur ones (in which I include myself).

Sam

Upshaw is a lot more than just tall. He's been off the top 10 radar since he got kicked off Washington, so he just hasn't been getting any buzz.

remember he was kicked out of TWO schools...not one.

so you're an AD at a college, you have a player that's the top player on your BB team. but you STILL kick him off the team and out of school mid-season.

and that happens TWICE.

people make mistakes and can learn. but twice?

that's a SERIOUS problem and will be an over riding one for most NBA Decision makers, IMO.

of course they will talk with those schools coaches and AD's to determine exactly WHY they wanted him AWAY form their teams. But I think the answers they get will make teams pass early on Upshaw.

It is the low cost, high upside that Danny looks for.   He is huge and it costs us nothing verses Cousins - draft choices, players and assuming a large salary and headaches.

Do you think an ex Celtic who loves the Green just happened to think about calling Upshaw and wanting to have a chat?   That was a recon mission setup by Danny.

112288

kdp59 wrote:remember he was kicked out of TWO schools...not one.

so you're an AD at a college, you have a player that's the top player on your BB team. but you STILL kick him off the team and out of school mid-season.

and that happens TWICE.

people make mistakes and can learn. but twice?

that's a SERIOUS problem and will be an over riding one for most NBA Decision makers, IMO.

of course they will talk with those schools coaches and AD's to determine exactly WHY they wanted him AWAY form their teams. But I think the answers they get will make teams pass early on Upshaw.

kdp,

I agree.  I think teams will pass early on Upshaw because of the red flags.  Having said that, though, that might make him great at #28 or, if Danny has to trade up, to #23-24 to get him.  

Here's a list of the weaknesses provided by draftexpress.com on DeAndre Jordan in 2008.

- Extremely limited with back to basket
- Footwork/post-moves
- Defensive awareness
- Gets backed down in the post
- Shot blocking skills
- Doesn't always play hard
- Fundamentals
- High bust potential?
- Maturity
- Mental/physical toughness?
- Not ready to contribute immediately
- Not productive enough
- Poor passer
- Ability to finish through contact
- Strength
- Free throw shooting


These were his identified weaknesses pre-draft.  Either draftexpress is completely nuts or there was some truth to all this and if that's the case no wonder he dropped to the 2nd round.

A lot of these weakness of Jordan mirror those of Upshaw, especially maturity and mental toughness.

Kids grow up, eventually, it just takes patience.  This kid has gotten slapped a few times.  Maybe he has learned his lesson.

Danny might have to trade up to get him, I could definitely see the Lakers taking him at #27.


bob


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It would be interesting to be privy to those discussions with the college coaches.  But the NBA is a different culture from college.  In college, a star athlete is so often treated like a god that it's an easy leap to believing he's virtual deity.  Everything comes easily, including being a basketball star—just building on the lifestyle and values developed in high school.  It's also easy to fall in with the wrong crowd because it's the most enabling of all the "crowds" from which to select.

It's a whole different game in the pros.  A far greater portion of the player's world consists of 14 other guys who are depending on you to keep your act together and to refrain from screwing up.  And there's a guy called a coach who's paid millions to keep you in like unlike any dorm monitor.  It's a lot more difficult to rise to stardom in a league where almost everyone has been among the cream of the crop wherever he played in college.  You have to work your butt off.  If you don't, the coach can cut you off from the playing time that is your life's blood and, if you REALLY mess up, people in the front office who are a whole lot smarter than you can cut off your source of wealth as well.

Sure, there are some players who, with the help of crafty agents, can find ways to play the p.r. "game" and learn how to walk a fine line between continually testing the "system" and going over that line.  Maybe Cousins is one such guy.  But fortunately they're in the distinct minority, and they're very seldom part of the Celtics' culture, and there's always that peer pressure traveling around with them like a shell on a turtle.  Moreover, at least in Boston, the wise guy is exposed a minimum of 81 times 

As everyone knows, one of my favorite expressions is, "Then is not now."  And there's been no element of my life experience in which that thought been more applicable than in following the Boston Celtics.  That's precisely why the board's occasionally exposed to yet another "See me in......."

Go Celtics!

Sam

Shaw is going well before #28 so the Celtics will have to move up at least 8 spots to insure getting him.........that of course depends on if the Celtics move up from #16 and get Stein in the top 10.

I think it would be easier and less costly then to move from #16 to #10.

Again, a low cost gamble for high upside.

112288

112288 wrote:Shaw is going well before #28 so the Celtics will have to move up at least 8 spots to insure getting him.........that of course depends on if the Celtics move up from #16 and get Stein in the top 10.

I think it would be easier and less costly then to move from #16 to #10.

Again, a low cost gamble for high upside.

112288

112288,


Another possibility is to trade our #16 for a #20 (or thereabouts) plus another draft pick for Upshaw. That way, we don't use #16 on Upshaw, we use a lower pick and get another asset too.

I agree, going from 16 to 10 will be expensive. Maybe worth it, but not cheap.


bob


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Good idea Bob..............one thing for sure we do have a lot of flexibility!


112288

It's not essential to move up to get a player who goes before your own draft pick.  You can trade for him after the draft is completed.  Phoenix drafted Rondo #21 in 2006, and then the Celtics traded a 2007 draft pick for Rajon.

Sam

sam wrote:It's not essential to move up to get a player who goes before your own draft pick.  You can trade for him after the draft is completed.  Phoenix drafted Rondo #21 in 2006, and a couple of months later, the Celtics traded a 2007 draft pick for Rajon.

Sam

sam,

The Phoenix-Boston trade that got us Rondo was a draft day trade.  You are correct about one of the assets given up by the Celtics for Rondo was a future year draft pick.  That could happen this year too.  We could trade someone's 21st pick for a future draft pick.


http://www.nba.com/celtics/news/draft-central/press062806-draft-rondo.html


bob


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I just realized that one great thing about having all the picks and assets we do is it greatly reduces the sense of desperation. Other teams with minimal assets get nervous and take big risks, thinking it's the only chance they have to possibly get our of mediocrity or worse.

Some other team is going to trade all their present and next year's pick(s) just to roll the dice on one prospect, and hope for the best.

If we take a risk on Upshaw, or a risk on trading up for WCS or Myles Turner, at least it won't empty the cupboard, and the security of having so many picks will help Danny avoid making a bad deal.

I'd have no problem taking Upshaw at 16 instead of trying to get too cute, but I'd also be fine with drafting Bobby Portis or Christian Wood there as well.

And as far as trading up, I rank Myles Turner higher as a prospect overall, because he has a great jumper and will be a very good post scorer as well.

The best deal would probably happen by waiting to see if either drops into the 8-10 range, on the day of the draft, rather than showing desperation before and trying to trade up to 5 or 6.

But honestly, I think I'd only make a big trade up for Myles Turner. I don't think Bobby Portis is that much of a drop in overall quality from either, it's just that he's not a big-time shot blocker.

Portis moves his feet very well in space on defense. Maybe not exactly as quick as WCS but really really well for a 6'11" guy. And I have a strong hunch Portis is going to shoot the lights out from the NBA 3 point line in workouts, similar to how Kelly Olynyk did.

All the signs are there. FT% in the 70s, knockdown jump shooter in college, very high 3 pt%, just very low volume/sample size. So I'm confident that with the few months he's had to get ready for team workouts, he's at least been working on his corner 3, and we're going to see lots of media reports after his workouts of him putting on a shooting exhibition from the corner, and maybe from all around the perimeter.

A versatile, high IQ, extremely hard working 6'11" big man with an NBA body, very quick feet in space, and a corner 3pt shot is quite arguably more valuable than WCS, who can't stretch the floor and doesn't rebound very well. And Portis already weighs more but is a year younger.

Right, Bob, but I believe the Suns drafted Rondo before the trade was completed.  I don't know whether there was a pre-draft "arrangement" between the Celts and Suns, whereby the Suns agreed to draft Rondo for the Celtics; but the Celts didn't trade up before the draft to acquire the #21 pick.  That's my point.

Sam

Maybe I missed it but I haven't seen anywhere what it is Upshaw actually did to get kicked off those teams. Was he smoking weed and not going to class, or a bad attitude, or are we talking about a serious drug habit or criminal behavior?