Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

by **gacracker** Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:35 pm

Well this drama should play itself out in the coming weeks and months ahead. .. hopefully to a happy conclusion. These are very interesting times indeed.

TBC!!!

GC

by **bigpygme** Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:37 pm

jeb said "I have wondered if he may not be messing with KG a little bit with those alley oops. Like there is the ball old man can you go up and get it." Respectfully, I don't see it that way. One , i don't think anyone could get away with that level of (essentially) malevolence.
Also, I have an impression that if there's anyone RR really does look up to and want approval from, it's KG first (and maybe Doc second). i think Rondo wouldn't do anything to jeopardize that synergy.

Sam said "Most of what we see with Rondo isn't sulking; it's stoicism. He's very much like Robert Parish in that respect." I like that perspective a lot - it explains RR's behavior better (and more constructively) than anything i've come up with.

TBC indeed, GC !! <smile>

Regards, all
Michael in Denver

by **jeb** Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:58 pm

Sam

Were all Celtic freaks. I think Rajon proved himself in 08 on the biggest stage there is in a deciding game. If you are going to talk smack you better be able to back it up. I think Rondo will personally.

by **jeb** Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:01 pm

Bygpyg

I think the young man is into KG too. I guess I am a bit worried inre the dynamic between the young and older players. Seems like something is jamming up our chemistry.

Best

Jeb

by **gacracker** Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:31 am

No chemistry problem tonight! First good game in a while.

GC

by **RosalieTCeltics** Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:36 am

All our yapping, and they looked really great in the second half. Now we will begin to see if they can keep it up. This is going to be a really tough road trip for them. The only good thing is that everyone is struggling now and then.
Here they are 12-4, tied for the Atlantic Division lead, and we are talking about them as if they were 4-12. Even KG looked good tonight. He seems to have that spark back. Hopefully this will continue

by **LACELTFAN** Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:42 am

RosalieTCeltics wrote:All our yapping, and they looked really great in the second half. Now we will begin to see if they can keep it up. This is going to be a really tough road trip for them. The only good thing is that everyone is struggling now and then.
Here they are 12-4, tied for the Atlantic Division lead, and we are talking about them as if they were 4-12. Even KG looked good tonight. He seems to have that spark back. Hopefully this will continue

I was just thinking that Rosalie....What a weird year, They are tied with the best record in the east and just a half game off the best overall and we seem troubled...not without reason, but it's weird.

by **cowens/oldschool** Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:37 am

Don't know if Sam will get something here by the time I post,but very good game and a game which I think the team can build on.

Perk looked great,best offensive game of his career,he had a breakthrough,he always looks like a bully that throws his weight around,he actually looked smooth posting and its not like Chris Bosh is a slouch.

Sheed was on,looking like what we invested in and Ray was Ray running to open spaces,hitting the 3 and not just settling for jumpers,because they were all on,Pierce could take the last 7 minutes off,nice to see.

Pierce had the play of the season so far,a monster dunk on Bosh that I didn't expect,Pierce calmly routinely gives the team whatever it needs,a rebound,a steal,some great passes.He actually reminded me of Bird and Hondo in that he did so well in so many areas.

Rondo was attacking from beginning and the way Toronto was shooting,we needed his blazing talents to keep us in the game in first half.Defense kept on plugging away,played hard,Raptors just on fire in first half.Finally defense took full effect in 3rd and Raptors broke.

One of the things I liked best about this game was how fast paced it was on both sides,great ball movement and uptempo by us.Marquis Daniels had a great game and might have found his place in the offense by moving towards the basket without the ball,Rondo found him repeatedly and hope we see more of this.His defense and the ball movement when he was in at end was so good,Captain could take a rest last 6-7 minutes of game.

Overall a well played game and KG didn't dominate,but had stretches he looked more like his old self too.I'll gladly take tonights performence,Raptors shoot the lights out that first half,they played great,but we were better,Friday night win,good game.

by **Sam** Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:30 am

Cow, I'm kind of glad I hadn't posted before you did. You pretty much said it all quite eloquently, and I'm happy to have your post stand as the official post-game analysis. It gives me an opportunity ot expand on certain points rather than to try to do the blanket job that you did.

All season long, I've been talking about how it will take time for a team stacked with veterans (at least one of whom has question marks about his physical capabilities) to seek out their respective roles so as to optimize team performance. Well it's easier to emulate something you've had a glimpse of than to be searching around in the dark. And that may well have happened last night.

As Cow so ably points out, key roles came clearly into focus:

• KG: Timely sharpshooter, like flypaper (for those who may remember that) on defense, and more than holding his own against Bosh

• Pierce: Twin Turbine number one—alternately giving teammates opportunities to ease into their most productive roles and then turning it on when a catalyst was needed; the dunk in Bosh's face deserves special mention, as does the one defensive play on which Paul blasted through a screen and was rewarded by drawing a moving pick foul

• Ray: Established later perimeter opportunities by continuing his willingness to go inside early

• Perk: Mr. opportunism personified on offense and an able twin tower (with KG) to keep the Raptors' big men reasonably in check on defense (especially Bargnani from three-point land); becoming VERY good at jumping out to the perimeter and recovering...and also in making effective offensive moves down low

• Rondo: Twin Turbine #2, pushing the ball most of the time and representing a threat to do so even when he wasn't...offering great balance between his own shooting and enabling games so that the point of attack never became predictable; and offering hope for his free throw shooting by continuing with his new out-in-front stroke that more and more resembles Ray's

• Sheed: Another example of great balance—enough three-point success to loosen up the Raptors' defense but even stronger offensive play down low...and exceptional low post defense

• Daniels: Versatile defensive option against players both smaller and bigger than he...and a virtual dervish on offense with a slashing and wheeling-and-dealing inside/low post game that also helped set up
perimeter opportunities

Others chipped in with useful stints (notably 10 good minutes from Williams), but these seven guys represented the essence of versatility and efficiency last night. The win was convincing and a welcome relief
from recent nail-biters, and it came against a potent offensive team and so represented a stern test. But, what pleased me more than anything was the role-identification and CHEMISTRY that was better than I've seen all season long.

And Doc deserves some praise for keeping effective units on the floor, and making the Raptors match up with Celtics rather than vice versa, and sticking to his guns by getting some rest for Pierce.

I've mentioned the term "balance" several times, and that's a pervasive concept that deserves special mention:

• The scoring was balanced, with six guys in double figures.

• The offense was OVERbalanced toward points in the paint (which I'll take any time), but that set up some balancing nice perimeter daggers.

• For the most part, the floor was well-balanced and spaced. The pace was never allowed to bog down for too long.

• The defense was far too porous in the first quarter but, thereafter, demonstrated excellent balance in guarding against both penetration and outside shooting. And there were good signs of the swarming that characterized the Celtics defense during the championship season (creating 15 Celtics steals and 25 Raptors turnovers).

This game easily qualifies as a major building block, and it's a nice springboard from which to venture on a difficult road trip.

GO CELTICS!

Sam

by **dboss** Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:54 am

Cow

excellent post game summary.

Sam

thanks for breaking it down

It is quite possible that this game could be used as a template for future games. It had all the positive elements that this team is capable of. Dominance in the paint, a faster pace, timely defensive pressure, ball movement, energy, inside outside offense and an outstanding distribution of the offense with 6 players in double figures.

The Celtics are back on track!

dboss

by **Sam** Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:08 pm

Dboss,

Here's hoping.

Wouldn't it be interesting to know the behind-the-scenes stories-behind-the-stories that were involved in making it happen? I mean, if one could just have been a fly on Bosh's groin...........

Sam

by **dboss** Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:41 pm

Sam

ouch! Poor Bosh..talk about being in the wrong place at the wrong time.. 'No where to run no where to hide'

Interesting pregame interview with Bosh revealed that he feels under appreciated. After last night I can see why. Talk about taking one for the team.

On a more serious note Bosh is a stud. Toronto was not able to get him to re-up and now he will become an unrestricted free agent in July. I cannot imagine that they would simply let him walk. Given Toronto's prospects for making the playoffs, a mid year blockbuster trade must be made to save faith. Bosh has been playing out of position for years. He is a PF that has been forced to play in the post. It will take some serious assets to acquire him but Toronto is in a weakened position because he wants to leave.

If he goes to a contender it would definitely be a difference maker. If you were the Celtics GM would you make a run at him? If so what would you be willing to give up?

dboss

by **Sam** Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:43 pm

Dboss,

I think Bosh's offense and rebounding are good enough to anchor a
championship contender. I'm less convinced defensively. I guess a lot
of that decision would be based on what transpires during the next
month or two—specifically how strong the Celtics' frontcourt looks for
the future.

On one hand, the frontcourt is vulnerable. The three REALLY big guys
all have some potential downsides (KG's knee, Sheed's age, Perk's
shoulder). But none of them is likely to be attractive to Toronto,
which would almost certainly want a reasonably facsimile of a big stud
in return because they have nothing else down low.

Perhaps the Raptors would consider a trade involving Rondo, Perk, and Davis (who can be traded after something like December 9), and some others to make up the salary difference. Although why they'd want to glut their roster with more numbers than they'd ever keep, I don't know. Would it be worth trading away three key cogs in the Celtics' current and future plans?

Frankly, I think this Celtics team is constituted much better for contending this year than for providing desirable trading chips.

Moreover, I assume such a trade would have to be made by All-star
time. The Celtics have been having enough difficulty developing
chemistry as it is; and chemistry seems to be a crucial factor for this
team. Given what they'd have to give up plus the arrival of Bosh, they
could be in the position of having to reinvent the chemistry once
again, with this year's playoffs on the horizon.

Making a trade simply to obtain an outstanding player has never really appealed to me unless there's evidence that he'll fit in and make the team better than the combination of those he replaced. Right now, I'm not seeing it.

Maybe someone who's more of a "capologist" than I am could figure out a viable scenario; but he'd better be ready to satisfy my "chemistry" criteria in the tradeoffs.

Sam

by **jeb** Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:55 pm

Most of the shots Bosh made were tough ones. Highly contested. The Raptors look good on paper but they are not good. Barely mediocre. Too many flashy scoring euros. Not enough muscle and grit. Bosh looks unhappy ala C Paul.

by **cowens/oldschool** Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:39 pm

Bosh has a game similar to a young KG without the great defense,he has to play with Bargani a Raef clone,he needs a Perk to anchor the defense,go against the biggst guy on the block and make life easier for him.No way would I trade Perk,Rondo and Davis for one Bosh.....stupid move.The way Perk is playing and improving,he will be at some level of all NBA Defense this year and a possible all star next year.Rondo is a future all star as well.Further the combo of KG and Sheed at PF while old,for the next 3 years as a combo is still better than one player Bosh who also can miss games during the season with nagging injuries.My feeling is KG will improve as season goes on,with KG and Sheed who needs Bosh?just the physical presence of the menacing Perk complements both KG and Sheed better and to give up Rondo and Baby?No way

by **cowens/oldschool** Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:51 pm

If Bosh dosen't resiqn I see him and Lebron going to the Nets to hang with Jay Z.Those two with young Brook Lopez and Devin Harris will be the next greatest turnaround in NBA history.Lebron and Bosh are frustrated with management and know this is their best chance to win.Nets will get rid of a few more spare parts and further lower cap,then Jay Z will lay down the law to pay luxury tax.

by **RosalieTCeltics** Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:17 pm

There is no way I would trade the farm for Bosh. He is a terrific offensive player, terrific rebounder, but does not play defense with the ferocity of KG, old or young. I have said since the beginning of the year that I was impressed with the way Perk came into camp. He looks great, is playing great, and will improve even more as the year goes on. He just is the enforcer that the Celtics need. It is a shame that that look on his face gets him a tech every time you turn around. There is no doubt the word is out on the Celtics. The ref's have no patience with them at all, and alot of times the calls are uncalled for because they are not calling the game the same way at both ends of the floor. The Celtics lead the league in tech's right now. Perk had better watch it, before we know it he will be suspended for having too many.

If NJ ever gets both of those players, it will be one hell of a team to watch. I like that Lopez alot, he plays hard every night.

What has become of Jose Calderone? All he did last night was complain constantly, not only to the ref's but to his teammates. At one point the camera was on him as he was yelling at two of the younger players. He also is only shooting 76% or so from the line, he led the league at one point last year I believe.

by **jeb** Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:31 pm

Rosaliet

I saw that. Bosh looks miserable too. Losing wil make you mean. As spotty as we have played were 12-4. Right at the very top. Couple a good bounces could be 14-2. Only the Hawks just flat beat us and we could have won that one. What do you see on the upcoming road 4?

by **RosalieTCeltics** Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:57 pm

I see a tough game in Miami, a tougher one in Charlotte, I am not really afraid of the Spurs (though I should be) and everyone is not happy playing Oklahoma.

I think they will win three out of four. Here's hoping that they really have turned the corner and that KG will shut alot of people up. I am really sick of everyone selling him down the river. I think he has alot more basketball left in his body and heart. The Celtic fan's who have followed him so diligently will be rewarded, it may take a while, but we will be happy when
he puts it all together.

Maybe this is wishful thinking on my part, but in order to win, they are going to have to play better than last night and they know it. I thought that Sheed and Daniels were wonderful last night, showing us what Danny Ainge knew they could do. Here's hoping it continues.

by **Sam** Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:24 pm

Rosalie,

A lot of people seem to think that KG is only able to play at about 80-85%. My hunch is that he's CHOOSING to play at 80% so as not to aggravate anything and give the area an opportunity to benefit from the exercise rather than to suffer from it.

If there's any truth to the hunch, then we might have seen 85% last night; 90% could occur early in the new year; and we'll see after that. And, if that's what he's been doing, he deserves TREMENDOUS credit for not giving in to his unusually spirited emotions by cutting loose.

It may be the optimist in me, but I see Kevin's situation as one of many that will lead to a much improved team by playoff time and a very worthy contender for the title.

The fact that flashes can now occur means the potential is undeniably there; and taking the gradual approach to going full-throttle will very possibly lead to an energized synergy toward the end of the regular season.

That's an exciting prospect. And those who become easily discouraged by bumps in the road in the interim may have been out of school long enough to have forgotten what a roller coaster ride the learning process can be.

Sam

by **cowens/oldschool** Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:04 pm

Sam

Very good call,I don't see the manic KG of 08 that dominated on defense erasing and chasing down everyone and anyone with the ball,yet but its coming theres some flashes,the shot is still there.I feel he actually looks better than Duncan,I'm more confident we'll see a better KG later down the road than seeing the Duncan of old.And Pierce really has shown me that hes a student of the game and has done a great job in the off season further adding elements and conditioning to his game,hes driving and attacking the defense perfectly finding the seams.

cow

by **RosalieTCeltics** Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:24 pm

Total agreement here, I thought he looked awesome offensively tonight. Has only missed one shot in two games. So, all that worrying? Are we out of the woods yet? They still have to get it together defensively. Charlotte is going to be a tough game for them, they always play them tough. I hope they win though, so they will have the momentum going into San Antonio.

You are right, though, Pierce has improved his game tremendously in areas where he was usually weak. He looks great, is in great condition, and no matter what they say about anyone, he is the head of this team, period.

by **Sam** Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:37 am

It finally seems as though the Celtics starters are getting into sync on the offensive end. And I believe the key can be summed up in two words: "balance" and "attack." They've won four in a row; and all five starters have scored in double figures in every one of those games. They're looking for one another out there. This was one night when Pierce was very good but didn't have to be a superman because all of them chipped in.

Doc was particularly complementary of Rondo in this game. Great pace, leadership, and great decisions on offense. Getting over the picks on defense, which was key to shutting down Beasley late in the game. Doc also said, "Kevin's getting back (to normal)...you can see it." And he was justifiably effusive about Perk, who had an authoritative double double.

In terms of our advanced statistics, there was only one category in which the Celtics performed significantly better (in comparison to the opposition) than they have on the season as a whole: the contribution of points in the paint. In two other categories, the C’s had marginally better figures than they usually do (defensive rebounding and offensive sharing of the scoring); but it is clearly attack offense that is driving the Celtics at this point. At the end of the game, the Celts mixed opportunistic outside shooting with going to the hoop, while Wade and company typically settled for perimeter shots; and that made the difference.

KG is obviously looking more like his old self on offense; and that may be the key to the increasing numbers of points in the paint. In addition to those he personally gets from rolls and alley-oops, the threat of his shooting from the elbow and beyond opens up driving lanes for teammates. He’s still not there in his horizontal defensive movement; but he’s doing a better job of contributing to occasional “swarms” during which this team looks defensively invincible.

On the minus side, this is a continuation of a stretch in which, in contrast to the first 10 games of the season, the starters look far more in sync than the bench does—at both ends of the court. The bench did help to build a little lead in the first half but pretty much fell apart in the third quarter. Once again, all five starters had positive +/- ratings,
and every bench player had a minus rating. I hate to say it, because I’m not at all a devotee of the three-pointer; but the best chemistry the bench has shown this season was when they were raining successful threes to loosen up opposition defenses. I’m not advocating that this is the tack they should take. I’m happy with five to seven three-pointers a game. But otherwise, the second team is still searching for a signature identity out there.

If the malaise of the bench continues, I’m sure we’ll hear a lot more about the need for a backup PG; and perhaps it could help; but I believe the real answer depends heavily on Sheed to identify his most productive role at both ends. He needs to stay down low on defense and limit his reliance on horizontal movement; because guys like Beasley will just zip by him from the outside. And, on offense, I believe Sheed’s best contribution involves shuttling inside and outside; but I don’t believe the rest of the team yet has a sense of how to capitalize on that versatility. Consequently, when he’s inside, he’s not getting the passes in his favorite spots; and, when he’s outside, he’s having to shoot just a little more quickly than is desirable. Somehow, too many of his three-point attempts seem to involve him saying, “Hey, I think I’ll take a three” rather than coming from the flow of the game like so many of Ray’s and Eddie’s do.

The two stat categories in which the Celtics lagged most noticeably
behind the Heat were offensive rebounding and defensive alertness. At
times, the Heat just rolled in unmolested for offensive boards. And,
after the first half, Doc roundly chastised his team for their
lethargic defensive play and being outhustled by the Heat for the ball.

There will always be opportunities for improvement. But the most recent trend seems far more promising than what we were seeing as recently as four or five games ago. Let’s hope it continues; and the two words to keep in mind are “balance” and “attack.”

Sam

by **cowens/oldschool** Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:42 am

Sam

Just got done reading the game on thread,had to miss game tonite,great to read the game on and your analysis above,WOW were starting to click love how we totally shut them down last 3 minutes of game,winning time!!!.KG looks like he had a breakthrough similar to Perk in the last game.If we can get back the KG of 08 and the newer and still menacing Perk at his new level thats gonna be a great building block thats gonna spell doom for the rest of the league.If KG's offense is a little ahead of his defense-I'll take it!!!

Seems like everyones defining their roles and soon we can just attack on instinct as a team,not having to worry too much of what role to execute.Talked to our buddy Steve3344 a little earlier he told me Ray is at only 30% from 3,so as he climbs back to his norm that spells further doom as when he gets his specialty going with the rest of the teams parts ussually leads to blowouts.Love the way team is going to Perk offensively more and more and the Beast is delivering.Hes gonna be 2nd team all NBA defense at worst this year and an all star next season.Saw some clips of some hellacious drives by whoelse Rondo?glad to have a freakish athlete on our side at that position as the new trend in league is these whippet points all coming in,game is changing.Bottomline Rondo and Perk making great strides this year,their strengths keep getting better,really great to see.....and KGs getting it back!!!

cow

by **Sam** Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:23 am

Cow,

As I've recently posted in the advanced stats thread, superior shooting percentages have been the most consistent influence on Celtics victories this season. In the past two games, KG has been a great example of just that factor.

As things seem to be improving in general, I'm increasingly concerned about the bench...which looked great earlier in the season but has lately been suffering a letdown. I guess we're not meant to be happy with everything at the same time.

Did you get my message about the pills?

Sam

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