Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

[RosalieTCeltics]

How long do you think the Celtics will put up with Rondo's foolishness before they seek a trade? I know the veteran's are getting older, but they are still the basis of this team. This is really disturbing to even think about.

[Sam]

I think a lot of people are recognizing only part of the puzzle here. Yes, there can be little doubt that Rondo can be stubborn, which is often a function of a self-assurance. Very often, you can't have oself-assurance without some stubbornness.

But Rondo's personality and psyche have been inserted into a very complex and difficult situation. GC, ini actuality, the Three Amigos ARE a work in progress. Unfortunately,
at this point in their careers, the "progress" tends to be more
negative than positive—not necessarily swift, but inexorable. And, just as many of us resisted glasses much
longer than we should have, they're not prone to releasing control
easily.

Rondo is the designated catalyst of the future. Just as (for example) Chris Paul has been annointed on his team. But Chris Paul has been given a clear path to taking the reins of leadership. On Chris' team, there are no legendary icons struggling to retain their time-honored leadership as he seeks to strengthen his. For better or worse, Chris has been presented with a fairly clean slate on which to make his mark.

Every day on this board, questions are raised about the sustained
skills and contributions of various iconic members of this team—including new
members. If these issues are apparent to board members, they confront Rondo as well. I can't think of any comparable past or present barriers involving a young "heir apparent" point guard.

Lately, I've been griping because the Celtics (often Rondo) walk the
ball up the court too often. Now that I'm writing this, I wonder if
he's buying time to take stock of the resources offered by the veterans in this particular game, as contrasted with other games. They often seem to fluctuate nightly.

It must be like stepping on hot coals to try to exert a gradually increasing sense of control without being perceived as stepping on the feet of one legendary icon or another. I read, on one hand, about Rondo's inability to attain consistent leadership qualities. And I read, on the other hand, about Rondo's "power struggles." There's no manual for this, guys. It's a trial-and-error process—a delicate balance—under the best of circumstances. And I guarantee this is not the best of circumstances ini which a young PG is being charged to take control of a team gradually.

I get a kick out of all the people who complain because Rondo passes up so many shots in penetration. He has had a lot of those shots blocked, and people complained then too. But, most important, he freely admits he's a "pass first" PG. That's his "default." That's what I want my PG to do; when in doubt, pass the ball.

And he seems to be the type who has to plan to shoot or he won't shoot. He doesn't make up his mind mid-stream, and I'm thankful for that because I see too many guys (including Ray sometimes) caught up in the air with nowhere to go.

So he's not perfect. But, in the absence of perfection, I'm happy he errs in the directions of his current ball distribution tendencies.

Yes, he has deficiencies, and I've talked as much as anyone about his free throw shooting. But I believe he's finally addressing that situation more constructively (I've mentioned how in other posts); and I believe the team is trying to limit his free throws while he's developing a new stroke.

I don't care a lot about the mid-range jumper because I believe, if the rest of his game hits a consistent flow, the jumper will become adequate in the rhythm of that flow.

I'm not expecting miracles overnight, particularly (as explained in detail above) because I feel he's facing major challenges. Two years ago, he was PG within a flow created primarily by the Three Amigos. Now he's being giving greater responsibility for CREATING the flow; and, on this team, that's definitely an acquired "taste."

Sam

[swedeinestonia]

Wow I agree with so much in that post Sam.

I like how you think a lot in the way of the philosophy of the sport rather than the science of the sport. There are so many mental and non-numerical aspects of any sport that get so overlooked.

[QuietReader]

Rosalie,

First time to talk to you. I am a Japanese woman who loves the Celtics.
I rarely post but love to read the posts in this forum.

I am all for your preivious two posts, especially for their premeter deffense.
When I first saw 2007-2008 Celtics, what amazed me the most was their relentless deffensive effort. There used to be almost no uncontested threes the opponent could make. Even when it seemed to be a step too late, they at least tried to contest the shooter. They used to be an excellent premeter deffense team. I was so accustomed to claim my Japanese friends (most of whom are the Lakers' fans) that was one of the huge defferences between the Laker deffense and the Celtics'. Well, not any more...

The Celtics players (not all of them, though) these days often stay under the lim just giving a clear sight of the basket to a wing man. What has possiblly changed their deffensive attidude? Is it because of too much swiching? Is it because of the aging legs? Or their lack of offense affects the deffense?
Those are some of the questions I have been asking to myself for weeks now. I wish someone would give me an answer...

Saying that, I did feel I saw a sign that they are getting back where they should be during last night's game. I hope they got their feet in the door.

As for Rondo, to me he is just like Rondo of last year. Sometimes very active, other times very hesitant and shows his irritation clearly. As much as I like him, he needs to learn it is not his salary but his consistent on court effort that makes him a leader. Well, I understand it can be discouraging that his team mates keep missing shots even when it appears to be a perfect assist of his. Threes are not falling and KG does not jump as high as he used to do. Still...he needs not to let those get into him.
.... After all it is his job as a floor leader..... I trust he will..

I wish to thank all the pasters here in this forum. Sam's posts always help me to see a different aspect of things. So do the others.

If I sounded awkward, please excuse me I am not very good at writing English.
I have been all for the Celtics! ....for only 15 years....

[Sam]

Thanks Swede. A lot of that discipline comes from having attended years of Celtics practices and having developed some realization for the host of influences that we never know about. I may not be correct about the exact factors, but I can guarantee there's a lot going on with Rondo and his situation that we know nothing about.

And I think similar forces could be operating in the cases of guys who are new to the team this season. Sheed and Daniels are joining a group that was a patchwork operation much of last year, and one of the key ingredients of that group has not yet played this season. Getting integrated into an optimal flow is far from a slam dunk.

Something tells me that whatever factors may be slowing the cohesiveness of this team is could be the kinds of things that don't get corrected overnight. So people who are expecting the Celtics to be a dominant force immediately may have to table their expectations, enjoy the season, watch for the gradual and often-subtle changes, and hope for the cream to rise to the top closer to the playoffs.

And we should also keep in mind that each additional disruption (including other possible acquisitions or the integration of Glen and/or Tony or whatever) will be likely to set back the cohesion process even more. Expecting Doc to wave a magic wand and order these guys to march in lock step like toy soldiers is unrealistic. Talent and experience are only the beginning, and these guys are all human beings just like everyone else except me. LOL.

Sam

[swedeinestonia]

Very good question, how will they phase in Baby again?

Something I would like see them try in general is a more uptempo/intense game. They got the depth where they could try and push the intensity (not necessarily run and gun like Phoenix).

High level defensive effort and a grinding offense. This will tire out the opponents too and few teams have the depth to hang with both the starters and bench of the Celtics.

Maybe it wears too much on KG/PP/RA to play less minutes of full out ball though?

[beat]

Swede

I think we all want a bit faster tempo.

There really is no reason we can't advance the ball into the frontcourt in 4+- seconds after a miss or a make by the other team.

One thing we rarely seem to do now is release someone on the opponents shot, and with the opposition shooting outside so much releasing someone would serve additional issues for the shooter. Instead of thinking all about the shot he now knows that if he misses and the C's rebound (another issue in of itself) a layup might be waiting at the other end make or miss.

Think the term used to be called cherry picking. An occasional release by Rondo might give him some reason to show off that speed and if not a pure break he could hold up and then guage a weekness in the matchups as there most assuridly will be a mismatch or two under these conditions.

But being that Rondo is one of our better rebounders he hangs around the defensive boards and virtually never releases.

In past eras the ball was either taken out of the net or rebounded and many times thrown to the front court with one pass putting extreme pressure on the defense from the get go.

Anyway just some thoughts.

beat

[gacracker]

I think a lot of people are recognizing only part of the puzzle here. Yes, there can be little doubt that Rondo can be stubborn, which is often a function of a self-assurance. Very often, you can't have oself-assurance without some stubbornness.

But Rondo's personality and psyche have been inserted into a very complex and difficult situation. GC, ini actuality, the Three Amigos ARE a work in progress. Unfortunately,
at this point in their careers, the "progress" tends to be more
negative than positive—not necessarily swift, but inexorable. And, just as many of us resisted glasses much
longer than we should have, they're not prone to releasing control
easily.

Rondo is the designated catalyst of the future. Just as (for example) Chris Paul has been annointed on his team. But Chris Paul has been given a clear path to taking the reins of leadership. On Chris' team, there are no legendary icons struggling to retain their time-honored leadership as he seeks to strengthen his. For better or worse, Chris has been presented with a fairly clean slate on which to make his mark.

Sam

Sam: Granted.. a very complicated situation as an heir apparent evolves... and the Big Three will not give up easily... nor should they. They are most impressed by what happens between the lines and one has to earn their respect by performing on the court. That is precisely how they won respect. No one dropped it in their laps nor will anyone drop it in Rondo's lap. He, like they, will have to earn it.

And one earns it by performing at a very high level and going at 110%, not by pouting or regressing. No playing the victim. No shortcuts.

Chris Paul is the total package. No one can hold him back. No one. The Big Three could not hold him back if he were wearing green.

He is good enough to be secure in his abilities and leadership. He exudes confidence. Rondo is a whole 'nother matter. He exudes stubbornness which only draws attention to the holes in his game.

GC

[Sam]

Swede,

I don't expect a lot of full-out ball. With this team, that should occur only very opportunistically. One of my favorite times is when the momentum has shifted in the Celtics' favor and they drive a dagger with a board or steal, a fast break, and an easy two. And, energy-wise, it's a pretty good gamble because what's invariably going to happen after that sequence? The opposition's going to call a timeout and give any deenergized Celtics a little respite.

But, for the most part, I'm lobbying for just keeping the opposition uncomfortable. Even if all five players walked backwards into the forecourt, I'd have them shooting very early in the shot clock before the other team's defense is set.

Always keeping the other team back on its heels does NOT necessarily require a lot of running. And Russell's "invisible man" rule should always be kept in mind. The THREAT of an action can often be as effective as the action itself. If the enemy knows you have the CAPABILITY of running off a made basket or quickly getting into your halfcourt set or shooting early in the shot clock (whether or not you actually DO any of these things on a given possession), they may "cheat" downcourt rather than crashing their offensive boards.

So, if energy is flagging, maybe you trot quickly into the forecourt only once every two or three possessions. As long as the enemy doesn't know which possessions will be involved, they're back on their heels the great majority of the time.

Sam

[swedeinestonia]

You are right.

Also in sports that I am a little more familiar with such as hockey and soccer they always say "the puck/ball" is faster than any player, aka pass it

With good ball movement you can keep the opponents move exponentially much more than you have to yourself (a whole defense have to rotate when the ball moves from side to side).

[gacracker]

Rosalie,

If I sounded awkward, please excuse me I am not very good at writing English.
I have been all for the Celtics! ....for only 15 years....

Quiet Reader:

Your written English is simply great. Keep posting!

How did you get interested in the Celtics?

How big a sport is basketball in Japan?

GC

[bigpygme]

Regarding Rondo's development ... leaving aside Sams's suggestion that he is growing into a key catalytic figure on the team as others (notably KG) face essentially eroding skills, let's consider for a moment Rondo's developmental PACE. is he on track, or do his jump shooting and free throw woes mean he is destined to second-tier status for his professional life?

Gary Wahburn recently pointed out in the Globe that "There has been a history of great point guards who have struggled with their perimeter shot. Jason Kidd shot below 42 percent from the field in his first four seasons.
Steve Nash shot just 36 percent in his third NBA season. Hall of Famer Magic Johnson made just 23 of 135 3-pointers (17 percent) in his first five seasons. Rondo shoots above 50 percent because most of his shots are layups ..." So it is frankly a relief to me to see that Rondo is not off pace with his development when compared with some PG's i think highly of. i had no odea they had such a rough start themselves !

to continue - "“That’s how I play,’’ he said earlier this week. “It’s hard for me to get the mind-set to shoot the ball when I am open; instead I always try to pass first. When I shoot the ball I have to think shot. I can’t think sometimes pass.’’ Rondo is cocky because he has to be" Washburn said.

A player who has to "think shot" is not a shooter - they just hoist it up there. (See House, Eddie, etc.) So Rondo's not a shooter - he's a pass-first PG (as Sam and others have said.) But with his athleticism and stubborn (fiercely determined and unyielding) streak, who can doubt that he has the potential to grow into a competent shooter, though not a gifted one ?

Michael in Denver

[jeb]

GC

I have not been pleased with Rondo's body language either. But you seem way way down on him? Why? He was the best player on the court in many of the 6 early wins. Is it inconsistence that's bugging you. Do you feel the Celts should have let his contract hang to keep him motivated. Warm up that big brain of yours and give me a "state of Rondo" address if you please.

[Sam]

CG,

As somewhat of a "word merchant," I was interested in your choice of words when you said "The Big Three could not hold (Chris Paul) back if he were wearing green." Does that imply they'd TRY to hold him back? Does it suggest that, if he couldn't be "held back," it WOULD or WOULD NOT be a good thing for the immediate fortunes of the team?

Because we should not forget that the Celtics are not a team just looking for improvement down the road. With their payroll and the team they've assembled, they want a championship NOW. To me, that means that any pressures that might ordinarily weigh on Rondo in this situation could be compounded by the urgency to win now.

Sam

[gacracker]

Jeb and Sam:

Its the sulking/pouting that I believe that I am noticing that really bothers me.

My take: he sits on the bench stone-faced and detached, indifferent to the game, withdrawn. The game stagnates due to his indifference both on and off the court. He re-enters the game at some point and asserts himself, the game pivots, the C's win, Rondo demonstrates in a passive aggressive way that he is the key to the C's success. Without him, the C's don't win. He is indispensible... in effect, he is the man. It's his team.

Juvenile approach but that is my sense at this point. Lacking the real confidence of a well rounded game, he is passive aggressive rather than active aggressive in asserting himself. He withholds and frustrates the BeJesus out of everyone to make his point.

Regarding the Big Three, it is human nature to resist change. Money and ego are on the line. They will not turn over controls easily to a changing of the guard. They will resist but ultimately yield in the face of sustained excellence on the parts of those who will ultimately replace them or a complete breakdown and a blow up of the team. Rondo does not represent sustained excellence using the tact that he is taking presently. Chris Paul would be more likely to break thru the hold the Big Three have on the reigns of the team... to everyones benefit... including theirs.

GC

[jeb]

GC

I have wondered if he may not be messing with KG a little bit with those alley oops. Like there is the ball old man can you go up and get it.

If he is as fragile as you say inre passive aggressive we are screwed.

You are I think 100% right that he will have to show big 3 he is ready to be the man on the court every night. I think the older guys will do what is best for the team but not on potential. It's got to show up in the box score.

[RosalieTCeltics]

What more could this kid ask for than to have three possible Hall of Famers on his team? You would think he would want to suck up all the knowledge he could from these guys as he moves along in his career. It has become more and more obvious that he wants to do things 'HIS' way, turn it on and off whenever he wants and he seems to be making up plays as he goes along.

I hate to knock this kid, he has a bundle of talent, but I do think it is time for him to grow up. If he messing with KG, he will live to regret it. Paul Pierce has tried many times in his post game talks about building up Rondo's ego and image. This kid is a tough cookie, I guess making $55 million dollars helps you say and do what you want. The thing is, that contract does not guarantee that he will be a life long Celtic. Only management can determine that and if he keeps it up, he just may be passing to someone alot different than the big three. Maybe there was more to what Chris Paul had to say than we were willing to accept.

[gacracker]

I had not considered the alley oops... but yes.... Rondo can make KG look incredibly good or incredibly bad. And KG and Rondo both know it.

KG once said that jelling and chemistry involve complete trust on issues so small that, unless you play the game, you don't understand. I am beginning to understand.

Rosalie... what was the Chris Paul quote that you are referring to?

GC

[jeb]

RosalieT

Yeah if he winds up passing to Chris Kaman he may wish he had played his hand different.

GC writes a pretty disturbing scenario. I wish we had a backup pg to push him a little bit. Marbury sure seemed to get his attention last year.

[spikeD]

After the game, Byron Scott said, "I think there comes a point in time in a game or even after a game when somebody says something to you, and the only thing I heard Chris say at the end of the game when we were walking off was that, 'He's going to respect me as a man'. So I don't know what Rondo said, but obviously Chris took exception to it."

It's so cool that Rondo is messing with Chris Paul's head. It reminds me of K.C., Russell and Bird. Those guys loved pissing off their opponents, 'psyching' them, as Russell wrote for SI.

It seems that Rondo is trying to assert himself as the quarterback of the team in a way that makes sense to him. To me he's like a fine wine that improves with age.

As far as what Rondo does when he has the ball, the old Celtics used to urge John Havlicek to shoot, so one game he took 40 shots. It became some kind of joke in the locker room. Let's hope they're joking in today's locker room over Chris Paul.

[RosalieTCeltics]

That's great, but Havlicek could shoot and make his shots, not the same with Rondo.

[RosalieTCeltics]

Paul insinuated that if he had PP, Allen and Garnett on his team his game would be alot different. It's good to be cocky when you are surrounded by so much talent, but....what happens when that all goes away?

[gacracker]

I too felt that Marbury got Rondo's full attention last year considering how ineffectual Marbury was and how little Steph had in his tank when he arrived. If the C's really falter this year and Rondo continues with his petulance, he will be playing in a dif color uniform chop chop. I hope it doesn't happen but unless Rondo rounds out his game, he simply lacks the tools to lead by example which is the Celtic way.

I love Chris Paul's game BTW. How could I not? I see in his eyes a cold blooded assassin.

Rondo has that potential IMHO but it take a whole lot of discipline on issues big and small for him to get there.

The Big Three have helped make Rondo a very wealthy man. If Rondo had played for the Clips, he would not be a 55 mil man at this point... and not nearly so cocky.

GC

[spikeD]

Call me a homer (doooh) but I'd take Rondo with his inconsistencies over Mr. Wonderful, Chris Paul, any day. The reason is heart. CP's a wimp! What has he done? Nothing. Where's his team? What wins games, offense or defense?

If they did exchange teams, how many points per game does CP get? Can CP provide the defense the way Rondo does? In Game 6 against LA, how many steals did Rondo have? 16? Rondo's problem asserting his leadership this year is that he isn't CP and everybody wants him to be.

[Sam]

First of all, I think the pouty stuff is overrated. Remember when
message boards were routinely using the description "Pouty Paul
Pierce?" Well, Pierce had occasion to be frustrated then, and I
believe Rondo is going through a form of PG assimilation frustration that may be unprecedented in the history of the league (as I've touched upon before).

Second, people can read whatever they wish into body language. In my work, I've made a study of body language for courses I've presented in scoping people out nonverbally in the course of interviewing them. People like Julius Fast have done some fascinating writing on body language. Most of what we see with Rondo isn't sulking; it's stoicism. He's very much like Robert Parish in that respect.

It is possible that Rondo is being petulant and is trying to show up KG on the alley-opp stuff. Possible, but not likely. Unless one is heavily into conspiracy theory, that wouldn't square with Rondo's desire to get so physically close to KG on the bench. It doesn't make sense; and usually, if it doesn't make sense, it's unlikely to be true. But it's always a possibility. Doc (along with Danny) has not been reluctant to be firm with Rondo BEFORE he was locked into a long-term contract. Doc has much more opportunity than we do (and far more knowhow) to determine whether Rondo's trying to make KG look bad. Believe me, if anything like that were going on, it would stop.

Hey, in no way am I claiming Rondo's above some petulance. He's a young human being in what I feel is a very frustrating situation. But I think his approach is better for the evolution of this team than a Chris Paul's would be. Chris needs the ball, and so does Pierce. Rondo's happy to distribute the ball to others. To have someone like Paul come in and try to take over this team less gradually than Rondo's doing would be a huge gamble at best and could represent disaster at worst.

There's a lot of understandable unrest and finger-pointing because many people assume that numbers of good veteran players imply a mandate to click and dominate immediately. But the veteran nature of this team means there are a lot of players on it who are "old dogs" on a team that must learn some "new tricks" in putting it all together. It's going to take a while; and the PG's role is only one piece of the puzzle; but he's getting an inordinate amount of the attention in this case.

Because he's a stoic? I don't think so.

By the way, I hope it's understood that none of this discussion is intended to be personal. I find it fascinating...and undoubtedly a learning experience for all of us. Similar discussions are occurring elsewhere, and they embody nowhere near the level of sophistication and solid reasoning that this one does.

I almost posted that we need a party just to collect and thrash it out in person over some adult beverages. However, I don't believe these old ears could handle the decibel levels that could become involved. In the absense of such a gettogether, I want to express my gratitude for the ongoing good will pervading the debate.

Sam

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