Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

by **sinus007** Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:14 pm

Sam,
Thank you very much.
I hate to be pessimistic, so sometimes I cheat and call it realistic. Very Happy

I'm not buying into chemistry/combinations explanation because there's almost no problems in the first half. Also, being a superior team (I believe Celtics is better than Pistons) they should've held initiative and been proactive, not reactive. Also, if Doc is trying to test and jel different combinations why to not do it in the 1st half?
Oh well..., maybe I'm just a frustrated fan because I can't find proper places for the pieces of the puzzle.

AK

by **dboss** Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:56 pm

This is becoming quite agonizing.

I do think however the chemistry issue does not account for the lack of fundamentals like rebounding and not turning the ball over or the inability to play with some energy in the 2nd half. this team is fading badly down the stretch. Offensively, that cannot seem to score and defensively they are not getting stops.

I think this chemistry thing is somewhat overblown since 4/5 of the starters (no KG) are in the game down the stretch and they are the ones who are not getting it down the stretch.

Sam I think the probelm with this team may be deeper than we want to imagine. I think that it is quite possible that this year's edition despite all the so-called depth may have already passed a point where they can win. In other words the window may already have closed.

I hope that is not the case. I hope that the missing link (KG) will come to the rescue. I hope that the swagger will return because right now this team looks like a team that does not believe that they can win without KG. He has become their crutch and while they pay lip service to making no excuses they certaibnly are playing like there are excuses.

Paul Pierce, Ray Allen and Rasheed Wallace look like a bunch of old men out there. While Wallace was not here last year, both paul and ray look very much like they looked in the playoffs last year against the Magic. They got nothing left. Their legs are gone halfway through the season.

Once KG comes back we will see how well the team plays. But we should keep in mind that KG is never going to be as good as he was two years ago.

One thing we know for sure is that the celtics are lookibng like a very average team without KG. Can they be a championship contender with him?

Should the Celtics make a big time move right now? A blockbuster trade to bring in a young stud?

dboss

by **Sam** Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:30 pm

Sinus,

That's why I try to explain that a basically talented team like the Celtics can devise a good game plan and can practice the game plan long enough to look good during the first half. I also try to explain that it's the halftime adjustments that they don't have sufficient chemistry to combat.

There could be no more perfect example than the Pistons' halftime decision to go with a zone defense last night. In the third quarter, the Celtics looked confused and had no answer.

Perhaps it's more than just chemistry (which is an overused word.) Perhaps it's lack of adaptability. Perhaps Doc has had to "dumb down" their repertoire to a few schemes that can easily be understood regardless of which of myriad combinations he throws out there.

It's obvious that other teams are adjusting at halftime, and the Celtics are failing to respond. Heinsohn specifically mentioned last night that, in the second half, the Celtics tried to keep using the same pick-and-roll offense against the zone that they had employed against a man-to-man defense. I think their repertoire is limited (thereby limiting their responses to adjustments), and I believe a lack of well-developed chemistry is the reason they're adhering to the limiting "keep it simple stupid" principle.

In a couple of previous games, teams made halftime adjustments that involved doubling Perk. (Seems unbelievable, but it was true.) That tactic also meant there were two defensive players down low to stuff Celtics penetrators. Those teams were willing to take a chance on the Celtics outside shooting, and they did a pretty good job of "jumping out" too. So what they effectively did was to attack the point of greatest ballhandling vulnerability and—lo and behold—the Celtics (including Perk) literally and figuratively "turned over" the ball game to the opponents.

With respect to chemistry, I think that, at the time when KG most recently went down, Sheed was finally settling in to a nice role with the bench. On offense, he was shuttling inside and outside—but more inside than outside. In times of adversity, it was often going low and not simply settling for bombs. And his teammates were starting to play off that tactic and seemed to be feeling a little more comfortable in their emerging roles. Moreover, Sheed's comfort level had spread to the defensive end, where he had become a real factor.

Then Sheed instantly became a starter, and the process of feeling out his appropriate role had to begin again. He had to adapt to the other four, and the other four had to adapt to him. Finally, he hit for 29 against the Raptors, perhaps offering an indication of his growing comfort level with the starters.

Then Sheed got injured and suddenly exited the starting lineup, and Scal took his place. Another adaptation began. But not for long. Back came Sheed. There has been no such thing as continuity on this team. And, by the way, guess what happened to the tenuous bench chemistry when Sheed became a starter.

This is exactly the kind of ongoing temporary situation in which a team can be a one-trick or two-trick pony long enough to look good in the first half while the opponent figures out how to adjust; and then, all the tricks are exhausted and there's no response to the adjustment.

People are saying that the third quarter used to belong to the Celtics, and it did. And one reason was that Doc was the great adjustER. He had the continuity of horses with good chemistry to be able to choose from a wide selection of halftime adjustments. Now Doc has become the halftime adjustEE. And he's competing with resources that are not sufficiently solidified to keep pace in the adjustment game.

My halftime adjustment theory at least offers an explanation as to why the two halves of games should so consistently be so different. You could give me a million dollars, and I would never accept an explanation that the Celtics are somehow taking group sleeping or "de-energizing" pills exactly one hour into every game.

What am I saying? Of course, I'll accept that explanation. Please send the million to SlipSamCelt; P.O. Box 758; Wellfleet, MA 02667. They'll forward it to me in my Paris apartment.

Sam

by **jeb** Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:21 pm

well that's not very up lifting

by **spike** Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:50 pm

Ray Allen sure didn't look like an old man at the end of the Detroit game. He looked as though he finally decided, after playing a complementary role all season, that he was going into the phone booth, change clothes and emerge as SuperRay. Unfortunately, Sheed then got open a couple of times and missed jumpers. If that had been KG instead of Sheed, with all the extra time playing alongside Ray, maybe, probably, almost definitely, KG would have recognized Ray was on a rampage and looked for Ray instead of his own shot. That's called chemistry. It's most indispensable in close games and none of these losses have been blowouts. Not many of the wins, either, even when KG was playing.

by **steve3344** Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:02 pm

jeb65 wrote:well that's not very up lifting

jeb - Maybe this will pick your spirits up. Although I'm never one to revel in an enemy's misfortune, we are desperately trying to finish ahead of the Cavs and hopefully finish with the best record in the East, which would be quite an accomplishment considering all our injuries. Well, it was just announced that the Cavs have lost guard Mo Williams for 4 to 6 weeks. Maybe now it will be a bit easier to finish ahead of them:

Cavs’ Mo Williams out 1 month with shoulder injury

By TOM WITHERS, AP Sports Writer 19 minutes ago

CLEVELAND (AP)—Cavaliers starting point guard Mo Williams(notes) will miss at least one month with a sprained left shoulder, a major blow to the Eastern Conference’s top team.

Williams injured his shoulder in Tuesday night’s win over Toronto when he reached for a steal in the third quarter. He was taken to the locker room for an examination and treatment before returning to the floor and making a key 3-pointer in the fourth quarter.

The Cavs said Thursday before their game against the Los Angeles Lakers that an MRI taken at the Cleveland Clinic revealed the sprain and that Williams is projected to be out for the “next four to six weeks.”

On Tuesday, the Cavs initially said Williams had sustained a strain, but changed the diagnosis to a sprain, which indicates there is a tear in the shoulder. It is not yet known if surgery is an option for Williams, the club’s second-leading scorer behind LeBron James(notes).

Williams, who was an All-Star last season—his first with Cleveland— scored a team-high 28 points in the Cavaliers’ Christmas Day win over the Lakers.

Cleveland coach Mike Brown said Delonte West(notes), who is more of a shooting guard, will start in place of Williams and that Daniel Gibson(notes) will return to the rotation after having his minutes reduced in recent weeks. West will be making his first start this season.

“It’s tough,” Brown said. “But I like the guys in this locker room and I’m confident other guys will step up. It’s part of the business. You hope he gets better soon, but you have to keep going forward.”

Losing Williams will hurt the Cavs in a variety of ways. Other than James, he is the club’s best offensive playmaker and is one of the NBA’s best three-throw (90 percent) and 3-point shooters (43 percent).

Cleveland (32-11) entered Thursday’s game against the Lakers with a 3 1/2 -game lead over Boston for the East’s best record.

by **swedeinestonia** Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:11 pm

Lucky break for the Lakers.

I am very curious to see how the Lakers perform against a good team like Cleveland on the road. Unfortunate that they will not be at full strength.

by **bigpygme** Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:42 pm

i sure hope the players aren't tuning Doc out. that'd be one of the worst signs, a sign of impending implosion. then you'd REALLY need a team meeting (which ain't a bad idea anyway.)

jeb, i think, has been asking about where's the fire in the belly. last year, the team's play through significant injuries didn't drop to nearly the current level of malaise. there was every reason then, as much as this year, to have chemistry and cohesion problems, but it didn't happen, not like this.
why this year? why now? what's different this year? just as one question, why isn't the addition of Sheed shoring up the starting front line so that the D stays competetive -- or similarly, why doesn't Sheed's presence help to keep the offense flowing and help avoid these droughts we've hit in 2nd halves?
not picking on Sheed as the source of these problems, they are more complex than that, i'm just saying we didn't see this level of deterioration last year when there was about as much reason to warrant it as we have now ...

no answers, just questions ...

Michael in Denver

by **spike** Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:37 pm

Before the injuries this season, the starting five was negotiating a whole new offensive regime. In previous seasons, the team relied way too much on isolating Paul when they got in trouble. Even bringing the ball up the court, it seemed you'd see Paul and Ray do it as often as Rajon.

For whatever reasons (team meeting, common sense) that was changing this year and, as Sam pointed out, Rondo was finally looking to become a co-catalyst with Paul. At the same time, Perk was showing some moves down low and was working his way into the offense. Just before KG went down, the whole process of negotiating new roles seemed to be coming to fruition. Then, POW, right in the kisser, everything got discombobulated all over again.

So, the plain and simple answer is that this starting five has never played together before and they don't have a bench because of the injury to Quis and the need for the bench leader to start. And now they have to renegotiate the whole share-the-ball mentality again. I'm not worried because of a period of adversity. Every team has to go through it. There are many talented players on these teams, it's amazing how much talent there is in the league right now. The Celtics are finding out that they can't just show up and win without KG. The fact they have the attitude that they can and should win every game is not a bad attitude.

So what if we lose a few games in January. We can still become a juggernaut by spring. The wheels are coming off the world, not the Celtics.

by **NYCelt** Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:25 pm

tyroneshoelaces wrote: The wheels are coming off the world, not the Celtics.

Spike,

Now there's an interesting perspective!

I'm strangely inclined to agree.

Regards

by **jeb** Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:58 pm

fellas

Last year I was PROUD of the team. I thought they fought like rabid badgers after KG went down.They CARRIED THEMSELVES LIKE CHAMPIONS. They flat went out with their boots on. I dont see that this year. However, there are new parts. The team has been decimated by injuries and there has been no continuity ...when everyone was healthy we were TOUGH.

If I see all out effort I can accept any loss. But I don't see that kind of grit this year and it is starting to worry me.

by **sdceltfan** Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:09 pm

A good indication if the Celtics are on their way back is if the number of assists in the 2nd halves of games increases. It is a reflectiion of ball and player movement.

Low 2nd half assist total is a reflection of more of the same: poor ball and player movement and poor shot selection.

Go Celtics!!

by **Sam** Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:08 am

Spike,

You're right on target. This year's team was designed to operate under a somewhat different concept—more influence of the playmaking dynamic, strength in versatility (a little more "Poseyish" in the latter respect), and less of the previous reliance on heroes. They've been seriously set back in the ability to develop cohesiveness on all three fronts. The good news is that there's still time to do so.

On the assumption that KG comes back and can go at least 75% at the beginning, I'll be happy to see the chemistry of the starters dusted off and hopefully augmented with some additional plays. During the first few weeks, I'll be looking for consistency in their patterns of play more than blowing out other teams.

It will be difficult to tell a lot about bench chemistry until Daniels comes back and the trading deadline has passed. But I'm hoping for increasing signs of synergy between Sheed and Glen Davis. And I hope Doc will finally have had an opportunity to complete his experimentation with combinations so we can start to see more consistency in the rotation patterns.

Then, when the roster is (hopefully) at full strength, I'm looking at the all-star to mid-March period as a time to amp up the intensity and regain some consistent rhythm. (That word "consistent" comes up a lot!) That would leave the final season of the month to get repetitions, to focus on setting the tone for games, and to tweak as appropriate.

That would be my formula for going into the playoffs at or close to full throttle, with a variety of cohesive combinations for different matchups and the confidence and swagger in full swing.

It's very unlikely to be a smooth road because there are many needs and plenty of potential pitfalls (not the least is the "I" word). Those who feel this team should immediately revert to championship form will be in for a severe test of patience, but fortunately all Celtics fans have that in abundance. (Right!)

As usual, it should be interesting.

Sam

by **MDCelticsFan** Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:33 am

TO Steve 3344: Losing Mo Williams won't even be a speed bump to the Cavs. Lebron shut down the Lakers in crunch time last night. Cavs 2 wins, Lakers zilch! NO ONE EVER call Lebron King Nothing again!-MD.

by **dboss** Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:08 am

ty-rone

maybe we were not watching the same game. Ray did score a couple of hoops in the 4th but overall he did not play well. There was a series of possession where he made like 3 straight unforced turnovers and he shot from the outside looked the way it has been looking all season. I think he had around 5 turnovers.

But do not get me wrong i am not picking on Ray or PP I am just making an observation that both of them look spent already where they do not seem to have the energy or the legs to finish games off strong and it does remind me of the Orlando series last year.

I know that chemistry definitely has an impact on they way they are playing but there just seems to be some other underlying issue that I cannot put my finger on.

The Best way that I can describe it would be 'a lack of energy' Where is the energy? Doc seems to be having a problem motivating them and they do not seem capable right now of self correction.

I'm hoping that KG can bring the fire back to this group.

dboss

by **bigpygme** Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:34 am

MDCelticsFan wrote:TO Steve 3344: Losing Mo Williams won't even be a speed bump to the Cavs. Lebron shut down the Lakers in crunch time last night. Cavs 2 wins, Lakers zilch! NO ONE EVER call Lebron King Nothing again!-MD.

he really is superb, but again, it's hero time versus TEAM ... once we ARE a team again, i'd rather watch us, even though recently it';s been painful <swoooon> ...

by **KellyGreen17** Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:35 am

Dboss, in regards to Ray and PP looking spent in the second half, I agree. I find myself yelling at the TV like a crazy person when Doc stays with the starting five for the ENTIRE third quarter. I see no reason why he can't bring some bench players in for the last 2-3 minutes in the third instead of 5-6 minutes of the crucial fourth quarter. From my observations, that seems to be the time when the momentum swings to our opponent.

by **dboss** Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:48 am

Kelly

I think doc is still searching for the right formula but as you have pointed out the main guys need to be fresh for the 4th qtr.

The bench is not really playing a lot of minutes and i think the problem is that they need someone to run the offense. When Rajon goes out of the game the lack of a pure BU point guard really hurts the team. Daniels is still a few weeks away I believe. If DA plans to get Tyrone lue activated why wait? Get him in their now so that he can develop some chemistry with the team.

I also think it has been a mistake to start Rasheed in the place of KG. I probably would prefer to to Davis in there with Perk because they played so well together last year and perhaps the chemistry would be better.

If the Celtics want to get back to their winning ways then they need to go back to what has worked in the past. Defense defense defense..I think the most disturbing pattern has been rebounding.

dboss

by **spike** Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:05 pm

dboss

Paul looked listless and clueless in the Detroit game and Sheed just plain sucked, but Ray chased the masked man all over the court all night long. With just a couple of minutes left, he made one basket, then followed up with a lightning drive along the baseline that made me sit up and get some hope. You know as well as I do that winning games in the last second is kind of a Celtic tradition. On the road, against a team that circles you on the calendar, you stay close and steal it at the end.

I keep remembering the Ray Allen of last year and his whole career who singlehandedly could take over games long enough to build a comfortable lead. I've been waiting to see that Ray all season long and you know he wanted to stick it up Rip's anal cavity. Then, just when the offense should have looked for him, the ball found its way to Sheed instead. Oh well, it's water under the bridge.

Your suggestion that Doc should have started BIG Baby instead of Sheed sounds brilliant to me and something to remember if the unthinkable happens (again).

s

by **dboss** Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:30 pm

As a fan I'm just grabbling to find out what's happening.

Here's hoping that the team will get heathy and get back to their winning ways.

by the way I'm going to be at the Celtics/ hawks game next friday. I expect the celtics to get a win in thisd the 4th meeting of the season.

dboss

by **steve3344** Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:56 pm

MDCelticsFan wrote:TO Steve 3344: Losing Mo Williams won't even be a speed bump to the Cavs. Lebron shut down the Lakers in crunch time last night. Cavs 2 wins, Lakers zilch! NO ONE EVER call Lebron King Nothing again!-MD.

MD - Losing Mo Williams, an all-star point guard, for up to six weeks is a much bigger loss than you're giving it credit for. The reason L.A. lost last night was Pau Gasol choking in crunch time and a coaching decision by Phil. I watched the game. Gasol bricked two free throws with 24 seconds to go that would have tied the game, had a couple weak in-close attempts stuffed back in his face by the more physical Cav front line, and then couldn't get a defensive rebound off a Lebron free-throw miss in the final seconds, allowing it to go to Varejao, sealing the deal for Cleveland. Also, Phil Jackson kept Kobe on the bench for all but five minutes of the fourth quarter because of a second game of a back-to-back in New York tonight. Yes, Lebeon was great in last night's game but for you to tell people "NO ONE EVER call Lebron King Nothing again!" is all pom-pom waving for your man-crush. Tell me exactly, what has Lebron won so far in his NBA career?? What is he the king of??

by **swedeinestonia** Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:59 pm

We would be way worse off losing Rondo than they are missing Mo.

Lebron plays PG half of the game anyway.

by **steve3344** Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:11 pm

swedeinestonia wrote:We would be way worse off losing Rondo than they are missing Mo.

Lebron plays PG half of the game anyway.

Absolutely, us losing Rondo would be way worse for Boston than losing Mo for the Cavs. We have no back-up pg that has ever played significant minutes at that position even when Daniels is healthy. But don't underestimate what a blow that is to Cleveland.

by **bigpygme** Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:25 pm

steve3344 wrote:
swedeinestonia wrote:We would be way worse off losing Rondo than they are missing Mo.

Lebron plays PG half of the game anyway.

Absolutely, us losing Rondo would be way worse for Boston than losing Mo for the Cavs. We have no back-up pg that has ever played significant minutes at that position even when Daniels is healthy. But don't underestimate what a blow that is to Cleveland.

agreed on both counts, steve ...

by **jeb** Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:40 pm

mdcelt

LeBron is a hero baller. Those shots fall when it mattered last night but in the playoffs ...deep. Nope.

Everyone on his team stopped playing on o for the last three minutes and watched. He won the game for them Good for him. The hype surrounding this guy as good as he is does not in any way match his accomplishments. I hate the way he plays. 3 years ago I though he was trending bird/magic and celebrated his beautiful floor game and unselfishness. But he is trending waaaayyyy more Kobe than Magic.

Losing Mo williams and Delonte is a major, devastating blow to them and it will play out in their record.

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