Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

+41
spike
NYCelt
sdceltfan
Improbulus
ExistentialParquet
bobheckler
fiorelladad
MDCelticsFan
sinus007
mrkleen09
spikeD
QuietReader
swedeinestonia
pete
bigpygme
gacracker
Pumpsie Green
Outside
steve3344
babyskyhook
BloodRunsGreen
bobc33
dbrown4
dboss
worcester
gyso
Matty
David14
KellyGreen17
RosalieTCeltics
LACELTFAN
MDCelticFan
jeb
carpecarpium
cowens/oldschool
House for 3
beat
international
Hoopdeedoo
Schlep2010
Sam
45 posters

Page 23 of 40 Previous  1 ... 13 ... 22, 23, 24 ... 31 ... 40  Next

Go down

Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads) - Page 23 Empty Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

Post by bigpygme Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:20 pm

i too would be interested in Shelden's apparent slide out of Doc's favor, as i would in lots of Doc's decisions about managing playing time. Williams didn't play at all in the Mav's game, did he ?
Perk looked like he could've used a break, and the team looked (to me) as though someone besides Scal might be a good choice at times ...

Michael in Denver
bigpygme
bigpygme

Posts : 1202
Join date : 2009-10-18

Back to top Go down

Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads) - Page 23 Empty Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

Post by cowens/oldschool Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:19 pm

Sam
Last nite we got destroyed and outscored in the paint in the 3rd quarter,I have to think Sheldon could have done a better defensive job than Scal when Perk or Sheed was out.I don't see any ability in Giddens to create on his own or for others,at least Walker has shown inside finishing ability and can do it in traffic......maybe they're saving Walker,they just want him to get through the season healthy,in one piece.
cow

cowens/oldschool

Posts : 27578
Join date : 2009-10-18

Back to top Go down

Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads) - Page 23 Empty Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

Post by sdceltfan Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:58 pm

Sam, I believe there are more deep-seated problems than injuries, as you know. I felt the Celtics were pacing themselves early in the season. Ainge gave a compassioned statement that yes, they were pacing themselves. Rivers said they were not a 48 minute team. EVERY game is a carbon copy the 2nd half. Whatever lead they have gotten the 1st half is pretty much eaten up by the end of the 3rd quarter.

In the 4th quarter player and ball movement come to a STANDSTILL. Celtics lose or, if fortunate, hang on (the Nets being the only exception I can think of recently). McHale stated the same thing: the Celtics lose momentum when they walk the ball up and don't run their plays with any resemblence of crispness or ball movement.

Rivers has got to put players on the floor the 4th quarter who are able and/or willing to run the plays and move the ball. I never thought I would question the heart or will of this team, but I am not seeing it during most 4th quarters. How does this team expect to win games against quality opponents without putting in serious effort? Yes, Sam, these players never knew the meaning of quit in the past, but the last few weeks they have given us a good imitation of it.

I wish to God I didn't feel this way, but then I never thought I would see game after game of unprofessional 4th quarters from this team, even without KG. Didn't see it last year when KG was hurt. We are supposed to have a stronger bench this season.

I brought this up the first month of the season and again in December. A quality, professional basketball team does not continually play below its capabilities without some adjustments. This team has problems, and more than a few of them are between the ears.

sdceltfan

Posts : 192
Join date : 2009-10-16
Age : 76

Back to top Go down

Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads) - Page 23 Empty Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

Post by Sam Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:34 am

SD,

It seems to me that, for the most part, the Celtics' energy levels at the beginning of games have been pretty substantial. But their lack of extensive weapons and insufficient chemistry soon allows good teams to identify and exploit Celtics vulnerabilities.

Do you really think Sheed expected to be playing 30 minutes a game in the role of a key difference-maker, rather than a supporting 15-20 minutes a game driving nails in coffins? The reason Scal plays the minutes he does is that, while not a stat-filler, he is a chemistry guy, and this team is just crying out for all the chemistry it can muster. The poorer the execution, the less effective Rondo is.

There are all sorts of examples of how the dynamic of this team is dramatically different from what was intended at this juncture. And the fact that so many of the players are miscast in roles other than those for which they're best suited can be an exhausting proposition (physically and mentally).

The way I see it, and will continue to see it, is that the first half of this season was supposed to be devoted to the coming together of a rather vast array of resources...but that has never happened to anything approaching the desired degree. So, instead of highly developed synergy, the Celtics have been left with sputtering execution and a dearth of elite resources. And they're a team that, more than most, requires a high degree of execution to persevere and win against good teams.

Once in a while (Orlando?), the Celts happen upon matchups and/or a game plan that can sustain a winning performance throughout the entire game against a good team. But, more often than not, they don't have enough weapons to combat the adjustments solid opponents make by halftime. And, as the Celtics' weapons become less effective and the opponent's momentum grows, their adrenalin and energy often flag.

But the sapped energy, as I've tried to emphasize before, is not the cause of the problems. It's the EFFECT of the problems. And, when the team has had an opportunity to reallocate ALL its resources and regain its rhythm, let's see how magically the energy "problem" disappears.

Sam
Sam
Sam
Admin

Posts : 22663
Join date : 2009-10-10

https://samcelt.forumotion.net

Back to top Go down

Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads) - Page 23 Empty Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

Post by sdceltfan Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:24 am

Sam, I always respect your knowledge and insights of Celtics and NBA basketball. However, I see unprofessional basketball in terms of lack of aggressive basketball, failure to take advantage of match-up advantages, poor foul shooting, giving fouls when unnecessary, lack of weakside help defensively, and lack of player/ ball movement late in 3rd quarters and 4th quarters. The Celtics are simply not playing professional, smart basketball. I also have to ask if they have tuned Rivers out.

You have to admit you are disappointed with Celtic effort, even with injury situation. This team has not shown the professionalism necessary to compete well at games' end. This team needs a real good dose of Bill Russel, Cousy, Havlicek, Heinsohn, and Bird Celtic pride.

I have recommended getting younger, and the sooner the better. I have been met with sarcasm for considering breaking up this Celtic team. You can't have it both ways. Either we are getting old with lack of energy and/or injuries or we aren't and have a weak bench that can't play competively when pressed into service. There have to be reasons why our energy level is so low late in games. This is a veteran starting 5 and bench that can't keep up. KG and Daniels are not going to make things all better, and Rivers and Ainge know it.

Sam, I hope you are right and I am offbase. But I just don't see the pride or confidence in their play.

sdceltfan

Posts : 192
Join date : 2009-10-16
Age : 76

Back to top Go down

Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads) - Page 23 Empty Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

Post by sinus007 Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:36 am

Hi,
With all due respect, I agree with SD. I hope that PG's presence will jolt the team.

AK
sinus007
sinus007

Posts : 2644
Join date : 2009-10-22

Back to top Go down

Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads) - Page 23 Empty Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

Post by mrkleen09 Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:14 am

You don’t break up a team mid season that is riddled with injuries yet still holding onto the 3rd best record in the league. That is just ridiculous.

If you want to discuss the shortcomings of the team and adjustments that can be made to the current plays, substitution patterns and the like, that is one thing. If you want to discuss what we need going forward and need to address in the off season, that is also valid. But to think that they are somehow going to retool mid-season is just misguided.

To quote Coach Norman Dale:

“I would hope you would support who we are, and not who we are not…this is your team.”

As far as I am concerned, the Celtics are just fine, and no amount of sky is falling talk is going to change that.
mrkleen09
mrkleen09

Posts : 3873
Join date : 2009-10-16
Age : 55

Back to top Go down

Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads) - Page 23 Empty Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

Post by cowens/oldschool Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:37 pm

sd

I agree with Sam,the lack of energy is related to KG our leader and best BIG being out,he just makes eveyone better with his passing,spacing,defense,etc.....to blowup this team now without giving the team a chance to gell together is ludicrous.I'm glad they're making every effort to make sure KG is right and strong for playoffs,not playing him with minor aches that can turn to serious injuries is a good thing.And we still got the 3rd best record,tweak the lineup maybe,adding a piece I can see,but to go a whole different direction over a bad week or two stretch with our main parts out is assinine.How did Lakers fare recently when Gasol was out?Our goal is to be as strong and healthy as possible come playoff time.

cow

cowens/oldschool

Posts : 27578
Join date : 2009-10-18

Back to top Go down

Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads) - Page 23 Empty Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

Post by beat Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:14 pm

Cow

I tend to agree with you and Sam.
KG is the leader PERIOD. Yeah we have other good players and they have played "hard" most of the time but..........and its a big one KG is not on the floor nor on the bench dressed in his uni.

What would other elite teams be like if their best player was gone?

LA, Cleveland would be lucky to be .500 IMHO.

I know it's apples to oranges but watching some games around here. With some good high schools. One has a pretty good player perhaps a D-2 kid. He twisted his ankle and missed a couple games. Guess what? They lost. Kid comes back and like magic they win again. Oversimplifying perhaps.

I remember playing fast pitch softball. Our best player was our pitcher. When he could not pitch we were just average. When he pitched it was usually lights out and we won.

Last year we played quite well without him and should probably do better than we have this season. Cut the tail off the dog, he can still bite.....cut the head off, and he dies.

In some ways we have lost our head.

Just my opinion.
When (if) we could every be healthy for a period of time, the pieces will fall into place.

beat
beat
beat

Posts : 7032
Join date : 2009-10-13
Age : 71

Back to top Go down

Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads) - Page 23 Empty Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

Post by MDCelticsFan Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:35 pm

To: SDCeltics: I agree wholeheartedly. I'd like to see us get real young in the off season. See if Ainge can do what Red did when he got Parrish and McHale in '81 for JBC. I'd like to see him get the C's in a position to get Greg Monroe from Georgetown, and John Wall from Kentucky. What a YOUNG 1-2 punch that would be !-MD.

MDCelticsFan

Posts : 1314
Join date : 2009-11-03
Age : 72

Back to top Go down

Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads) - Page 23 Empty Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

Post by mrkleen09 Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:50 pm

Assuming you could even get the #1 pick (which we cant) - why in the world do the Celtics need John Wall?
mrkleen09
mrkleen09

Posts : 3873
Join date : 2009-10-16
Age : 55

Back to top Go down

Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads) - Page 23 Empty Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

Post by beat Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:01 pm

I do not want to go what we went through in the late 70's!

We do not need to panic!!

Tweek, yes where and when we can.

But no way we are going to get a high lottery pick next year IMO.

beat
beat
beat

Posts : 7032
Join date : 2009-10-13
Age : 71

Back to top Go down

Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads) - Page 23 Empty Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

Post by Sam Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:05 pm

Sorry, SD. I understand exactly what you're saying. I'm just not buying.



Everything you mention (lack of aggressive basketball, failure to capitalize on match-up advantages, poor foul shooting, giving fouls when unnecessary, lack of weakside help defensively, and lack of player/ ball movement late in 3rd quarters and 4th quarters) can be a function of debilitation exacerbated by extended discontinuity.

Responding to halftime adjustments by opponents requires being able to apply a variety of executional strategies smoothly. The starting unit of Rondo, Ray, Pierce, WALLACE and Perk has played 110.2 minutes together, so they're reasonably familiar with one another. This fact, plus the "surprise" factor of Doc's game plan for any given game, plus fresh legs, gives them the ability to perform pretty well in most first halves.

In third periods, foul problems are likely to come into play (often involving Sheed). Only two Celtics five-man combinations NOT involving
Sheed or KG or Daniels have played together as many as 20 minutes all season long:

Rondo-Ray-Pierce-Scal-Perk (23.8 minutes)
Rondo-Ray-Pierce-Davis-Perk (28.8 minutes)

Combinations that haven't played a lot together don't operate as smoothly and have a very limited repertoire. Davis has played in only 11 games, still has a bad, taped thumb, and has had VERY few practices with the team. Scal represents a dropoff in offensive output and, for much of the year, has been well down on the depth chart, which affects his practice time as well as game time.

This season, the short-handed Celtics have simply not been able to develop as many counterattacking weapons as they expected to have because their vaunted versatility has been curtailed. So, in the second half, they tend to become more REactive (trying to stem the opponent's tide and not to lose), whereas they had been more PROactive in the first half. That seldom works
against good teams, who pounce like lions on tentative play, turnovers born of lack of chemistry, and gambling "hero shots."

Moreover, as I must have stated a dozen times, opponents make halftime adjustments designed to neutralize and surprise elements in Doc's game plan. Those adjustments become increasingly difficult for the Celts to adapt to as the combinations they must throw out there represent less and less experience together. In the past month, the starting lineup has never been the same for more than three consecutive games.

By the fourth quarter, against a good team, the Celtics have typically been hanging on and are in full reactive mode. Their all-too-limited weapons are pretty well exhausted. The gambling instinct becomes more pronounced, and the apparent inevitability of a recurring
pattern leads to natural human frustration and loss of adrenalin.

And there is also the fatigue factor that occurs in any game (whether or not it's a back-to-back). There's EXTREMELY little chemistry
on the bench (and it would be worse with Giddens or Walker in there). So Doc's limited in the rest he can give the starters because, by
inserting bench players who are not highly in synch, he's exposing yet another soft underbelly to the enemy. So the starters play more
minutes than they should because Doc apparently prefers exhausted remnants of chemistry over fresher disarray.

Perhaps you think you have spotted a conscious decision by Celtics players to have energy in the first half but not in the second half. I
see any apparent loss of energy as a function of poorer chemistry in the second half, unavailability of sufficient responses to opponents'
adjustments, fatigue from a shortened rotation, and a natural frustration of proud players to what must seem like a "here we go
again" syndrome every time the momentum shifts in the second half.

That's why I say that you're confusing the effect with the cause. Do you really feel these guys are deliberately quitting out there and are selectively doing it mainly in the second half? These guys are not automatons. They're subject to human
psychological vulnerabilities, including the recent inevitability of having good teams turn the tide on them in the second half.

Cause and effect, my friend. Cause and effect. It's important to recognize the difference. And, in doing so, perhaps to keep in mind
that, when Notre Dame won one for the Gipper, it was just one game—not the long haul of a regular NBA season. Rah rah rah stretches just so far among men who necessarily take a long-term view toward winning a championship.

You were around in 1969. Did you write letters to the newspapers calling the Celts quitters every time they lost another one on their
way to a fourth-place division finish? Heck, that team didn't have a third of the injuries this one has had. More important, the core of the 1969 team had YEARS of chemistry together, unlike the current team. Let's see. How did that season eventually work out? Think about it.

Sam


Last edited by Sam on Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
Sam
Sam
Admin

Posts : 22663
Join date : 2009-10-10

https://samcelt.forumotion.net

Back to top Go down

Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads) - Page 23 Empty Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

Post by NYCelt Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:38 pm

"You have to admit you are disappointed with Celtic effort, even with injury situation. This team has not shown the professionalism necessary to compete well at games' end. This team needs a real good dose of Bill Russel, Cousy, Havlicek, Heinsohn, and Bird Celtic pride." - sdceltfan

"You don’t break up a team mid season that is riddled with injuries yet still holding onto the 3rd best record in the league. That is just ridiculous.

'To quote Coach Norman Dale:

“I would hope you would support who we are, and not who we are not…this is your team.”'
- mrkleen09

Two opposite opinions, yet I'm becoming more convinced both are correct to a degree.

Although I can't get the time right now, I would love to post something expanding on that thought but I think it boils down to this; Even with injuries to key players, we presently hold the third best record in the league. This is also true despite a pattern of second-half collapses whatever their cause. The expectations of this team were even higher, even with the injuries, and those expectations may be justified.

The silver lining is that if we are playing somewhat below our capabilities (and I think regardless of injuries we are), we have one fantastic team.

The issue and risk is that some of our players may either not be capable of playing to expectation, or due to injury age or attitude, never again will.

My personal opinion? Although I certainly wouldn't start making wholescale changes, I suspect that there is a very valid undercurrent in sd's opinion...and I'm a glass is half full kind of guy. I think Pierce's post-game comments the other night were a version of "Bird Lite", calling out his teammates in a subtle way without calling them sissies.

Yes, just another day in the life of a fan.

Back to work...

Regards
NYCelt
NYCelt

Posts : 10753
Join date : 2009-10-12

Back to top Go down

Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads) - Page 23 Empty Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

Post by spike Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:23 pm

From here it looks as if sdceltfan is pulling youalluns' legs, playing devil's advocate and doing a fairly decent job. He went overboard with hyperbole a few too many times but did it with style, so it wasn't too bad.

But saying this team quit? Please, name the game. They're unprofessional, lacking Celtic Pride? That's called going over the top. Remember the win over Orlando on Christmas Day? It was a gut check game, more than any other since the first game against Cleveland. It wasn't that long ago, you may have watched it, sd. Still, you get style points, for sure, just for mentioning Celtic Pride.

Last year, they lost on XMas Day and some people couldn't stop crying about it. This year, they won this stirring victory and it's forgotten. Not here.

What's really interesting about this stumbling stretch is how the emerging leaders on the team, Perk and Rondo, react to losing. They look ugly at the end of these losses, the Ugly Two, - they look as though the other team didn't just beat them, but raped and killed their mothers. Their fathers, too. Father-rapers, sitting there on the group W bench.

You can see though, they're learning what they have to do not to lose. Rondo's thinking, next time I'll make Baldhead work harder in the first period, and Perk's thinking, as Arlo said to the recruiting sergeant, "I wanna keel." No, really, thats what he's thinking. You can see it on his face. It's the Mark of the Beast.

In other words, when KG, Paul and Ray are retired, and Perk and Rondo are the grizzled veterans, they're going to look back at last season's playoffs, and this season's rough stretch, and say, 'That's when we took the biggest strides in our development, that's when we learned to work our way through adversity and walk the walk.'

There's simply nothing wrong with this team's mental toughness. After health, that's what matters most.

Regarding all that crap sdceltfan was slinging, the following paragraphs are from Bill Russell's philosophical autobiography, Second Wind. I'd like to hear the devil's advocate argue with them.

BILL RUSSELL: "[P]hysical abilities are relatively equal at the top of professional sports. On the Celtics, we believed that the principal difference between good teams and great ones was mental toughness: how well a good team could keep its collective wits under pressure. That's something no coach can give you. In each split second a basketball game changes as fast as ten rapidly moving objects can create new angles and positions on the floor. Your game plan may be wiped out by what happens in the first minute of play. The coach can't be out there; the player has to see what's going on. More, he has to predict where a pattern of action will lead, and then act to change that pattern to the advantage of his team. Teams that can do this under the greatest pressure will win most of the time."

"The team's stability was also sound strategy on Red's part. He believed that you don't tamper with a championship team; as much as possible, you keep the combination intact as long as you can. This may seem obvious - the only way to proceed - but many franchises have broken up championship teams in violation of Red's rule. The Golden State Warriors, for instance, traded a key player in the off-season within weeks after winning the 1975 NBA championship, and the team soon lost whatever had held it together."


Last edited by tyroneshoelaces on Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

spike

Posts : 125
Join date : 2009-10-17

Back to top Go down

Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads) - Page 23 Empty Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

Post by sdceltfan Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:03 pm

I love the Celtic loyalty and compassion that this board reflects. This is why I signed up for this board - to get some educated, compassioned reponses that further one's understanding of the Celtic situation.

However, nowhere have I suggested the Celtics break up this team this year. I just want players on the floor that play with Celtic aggressiveness and pride. Maybe the air out here in South Dakota is cleaner than Boston, but I see clearly that hasn't always been the case this season. Did Paul Pierce come out questioning effort this week? I hadn't heard that, but it is about time someone in the organization other than Ainge did.

Have I said there is no way the Celtics can overcome this? No. I suggested with the current attitude and effort of play, the Celtics have no chance. Yes, I have been damn disappointed with the way they have responded to KG and Daniels injuries.

Go Celtics!!

sdceltfan

Posts : 192
Join date : 2009-10-16
Age : 76

Back to top Go down

Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads) - Page 23 Empty Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

Post by NYCelt Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:32 am

sd,

I get the vibe that you're feeling nobody is getting what you're saying.

I think you're making some reasonable statements and trying to take a realistic look at the slump the team is in. I didn't take you as saying break up the team and in that regard most ideas are at least worthy of debate.

For the record, I agree with you and think that you're a loyal and knowledgeable fan.

By the way, the air in South Dakota is cleaner than almost anywhere here in the east.

Regards


Last edited by NYCelt on Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:12 am; edited 2 times in total
NYCelt
NYCelt

Posts : 10753
Join date : 2009-10-12

Back to top Go down

Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads) - Page 23 Empty Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

Post by Sam Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:40 am

Hey, we're all frustrated, and we've all got our theories about the problem areas. But we all want what's best for the Celtics. The worst thing we could do would be to let it get to the point where it pulls us apart.

I've enjoyed the debate with SDCeltFan because, even when we disagree, there's never an instant of doubt about his passion for this team. SD, you're a good friend. I just wish it could be more than a cyber friendship.

I'm hoping KG can come back on Friday (IF he's ready), not so much because I think he's going to ride in on a white horse and correct all the problems but because his return will hopefully signal a return to more of a sense of normalcy and game-by-game improvement.

From SD's point of view, maybe KG will be disgusted with the team's lack of effort and will kick butts out there and push the energy level in the right direction. From my point of view, maybe KG's return will mean a return of Sheed to the bench, more bench cohesiveness, better defensive chemistry through his role as an anchor, and better offensive chemistry through the additional options (for the entire team) that KG facilitates.

Go Celtics!

Sam
Sam
Sam
Admin

Posts : 22663
Join date : 2009-10-10

https://samcelt.forumotion.net

Back to top Go down

Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads) - Page 23 Empty Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

Post by jeb Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:47 am

sdcelt

It is well and good that we can see the same situation different ways and discuss it. Glad to have you here.

Jeb
jeb
jeb

Posts : 6165
Join date : 2009-10-17
Age : 59

Back to top Go down

Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads) - Page 23 Empty Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

Post by sdceltfan Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:12 am

Guys, I repect and enjoy your responses. The comraderie this holiday season and throughout the Celtics' season mean a lot to me. I thank Sam for making this board available to us.

I must admit I grow weary of being the devil's advocate on this topic. I really want to be more optimistic about this team. I feel the players need to call a team meeting, and really hash things out. Rivers has been against such meetings, but the athletic teams I have played with always seemed to come away revitalized after such meetings. I get the feeling that team love and confidence have eroded and need to be re-addressed, as well as player commitments.

I also feel the coaching staff must question why mismatches are not being taken advantage of or why players do not seem to be responding. I have also gotten the feeling that the players may be tuning Rivers out for some reason. That is just conjecture on my part.

Regardless, although I have been deeply disappointed, I remain a Celtic fan for the duration.

Go Celtics!!

sdceltfan

Posts : 192
Join date : 2009-10-16
Age : 76

Back to top Go down

Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads) - Page 23 Empty Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

Post by jeb Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:15 am

Sd

Hopin this is the darkest hour and the light will slowly start leakin in.
jeb
jeb

Posts : 6165
Join date : 2009-10-17
Age : 59

Back to top Go down

Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads) - Page 23 Empty Post-game Thread: Celts 86 @ Pistons 92, 1/20/10

Post by Sam Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:24 am

After tonight’s first half, the Celtics led by 8 points. They then went out and held the Pistons to 44 in the second half and won handily. Right? Wrong! The Celts scored only 30 in the last two quarters, as once again the momentum shifted all too readily to the opponent in the second half.

I could go into a lot of statistical analysis. The Celtics were outrebounded 45-35 (13-5 on the offensive boards) and were uncharacteristically “out-assisted,” 19-17. You’ll hear (correctly) that their bench players were outscored 43-12. That’s a bit misleading, because the Detroit bench played 40 minutes more than the Boston bench. But one of the big differences in this game was bench player Charley Villanueva, who joined Rip Hamilton to destroy the Celtics in the fourth quarter. Stuckey (27 points, 11 rebounds and 6 assists) just blew Rondo away in the second
half after Rondo submitted a catalytic first half on the way to 21, 6 and 7.

Rondo just disappeared in the second half, as did Pierce—17 points in the first quarter and 4 thereafter as the Pistons double- and triple-teamed him and dared the Celtics to hit outside shots (which, for the most part they didn’t).

But statistics did not win this game. I feel the essence of the win can be summarized in two words: zone defense.
As of late, opposing teams seem to have made major adjustments at halftime, and the revolving cast of characters has prevented the Celtics from developing a wide range of answers. Tonight, it was the Pistons’ switch to a zone defense that just plain stoned the Celtics in the second half. The Celtics looked dazed.

At one point in the third quarter, Doc called a timeout and obviously tried to alert the Cs on how to defeat the zone. So, during the same timeout, Detroit switched back to the man-to-man defense to cause two consecutive turnovers. From then on, the Pistons went primarily with the zone but occasionally switched back often enough to keep the Celts off-balance. It was masterfully done; it totally reversed the momentum of the game; and the Celtics played into Detroit’s hands by not answering the strategy but settling for long clankers.

You’ll probably hear more about lack of energy on the part of the Celtics, despite the fact that the Celts led 21-8 in fast break points and 12-9 in steals (admittedly mostly in the first half). After the game, Doc talked some more
about the fallacy of thinking they can coast when they get a lead. In my opinion, they were just plain
out-strategized and out-executed big time in that second half, when their defense was not all that bad as it did hold Detroit to 44 points to set up a very winnable scenario if they could have mounted a half-decent offensive performance.

Doc did throw a bone to the proponents of the kiddie korps, giving 2:48 to Bill Walker during the first half. He did get a rebound plus an assist; and the combination with which he played had a +1 rating.

One more thing. Doc played 13 different combinations of players in this game. Only the five starters appeared as a
combination more than once. I assume the combinations he selected were a response to matchups. But it has to be difficult for players to form much chemistry when playing with a bunch of mix-and-match combos.

Those combinations with the best +/- ratings were:

+5 Tony-House-Pierce-Davis-Sheed (played only in the first half)
+4 Rondo-Tony-Pierce-Davis-Sheed (played only in the second half)
+1 Tony-House-Walker-Scal-Davis (played only in the first half)

Those combinations with the poorest +/- ratings were:

-3 House-Ray-Pierce-Scal-Perk (played only in the second half)
-3 Rondo-House-Tony-Davis-Sheed (played only in the second half)
-2 Rondo-Ray-Tony-Sheed-Perk (played only in the first half)

Rondo played in 9 different combinations.
Tony played in 8 different combinations.
Sheed played in 7 different combinations.
Eddie played in 7 different combinations.
Pierce played in 6 different combinations
Perk played in 6 different combinations.
Ray played in 4 different combinations.
Scal played in 4 different combinations.
Walker played in 1 combination.

Do you start to see why I am so concerned about the matter of developing chemistry?

Let’s see what happens on Friday. when KG hopefully will be recovered enough to return. I’m not expecting him to fill the stat sheet, but I’m looking forward to a little smoother team execution given his presence and the return of some other players to their more normal roles.

Sam
Sam
Sam
Admin

Posts : 22663
Join date : 2009-10-10

https://samcelt.forumotion.net

Back to top Go down

Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads) - Page 23 Empty Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

Post by MDCelticsFan Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:27 am

Jeb: There is light. However the light is that from the train coming at us from the other end of the tunnel. You know we can't out run that train either. When it smacks us, we won't even be able to talk smack!-MD

MDCelticsFan

Posts : 1314
Join date : 2009-11-03
Age : 72

Back to top Go down

Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads) - Page 23 Empty Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

Post by sinus007 Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:10 pm

Sam,
I'm afraid there's much deeper problem with the team than a number of different combinations and opponents switching types of defense. This TQN (Third Quarter Nap) syndrome would be funny if they're winning by double digits. Unfortunately, it's not so. I don't know what's the real reason for such awful performance. I suspect there're several reasons. Hope they will get out and deal with them in the next week or 2, so their aftereffect doesn't last into playoffs.

AK
sinus007
sinus007

Posts : 2644
Join date : 2009-10-22

Back to top Go down

Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads) - Page 23 Empty Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

Post by Sam Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:45 pm

Sinus,

There is almost certainly a combination of problems. Things are seldom simple in pro basketball. However, I've been cautioning people to distinguish between causes and effects in this case. I simply don't buy the theory that the Celtics set some sort of group alarm clock after two minutes of every third quarter and collectively decide to go to sleep. The regularity and widespread nature of the malady make absolutely no sense.

So I believe that what may LOOK like a group sleep to some people is really caused by other factors—most notably (as Tommy Heinsohn and Donny Marshall independently pointed out last night) major chemistry issues. They start looking confused when other teams throw adjustments at them in the third; and, by the fourth, the momentum has clearly shifted. Perhaps there's some fatigue involved too, but it may be psychological fatigue (also mentioned by Tommy) as much as physical fatigue. The predictability and seeming inevitability of extended lack of chemistry can be a big contributor to psychological fatigue, which (in turn) can be confused with taking some sort of group snooze.

One of the strengths of this team was supposed to be its veteran depth. But a possible downside of the depth is that it represents a whole lot of players who need to familiarize themselves with one another on a team that clearly is not just a carbon copy of previous Celtics teams. The season-long revolving door of key injuries, in addition to depriving the team of the specific skills of the affected players, has greatly retarded the chemistry-building process.

I didn't get the exact stat, but the announcers last night were taking about the 11 games (I think it's 11) since KG most recently went down. I believe they said there had been six different lineups during that period. I haven't checked that out; but, whatever the figures are, this team has obviously lacked continuity all season long; and I guess a lot of people simply don't realize how devastating that pattern can be with respect to practices and what havoc it wreaks with the consistent performance of a team and with the long-term chemistry-building process.

Instead of building chemistry, they've been in the throes of disintegrating chemistry. And the impact comes mostly after the other team has made its halftime adjustments (like the zone defense of the Pistons last night) and the Celtics lack the chemistry to switch gears and combat the adjustments.

I'd like to hope things could be corrected in the next week or two; and, at least with KG's return, we'll have a unit that's had an opportunity to develop good chemistry over much of three seasons. But I had initially anticipated that it would take at least half a season for this deep team to get clicking, with everyone finding his ideal role and learning how to fit into the team schemes. Unfortunately, much of that work will now have to be accomplished in the second half of the season; and that prospect, of course, assumes that all the pupils will be present and able in the "classroom."

And, if there is additional player acquisition, that will be more chemistry-building that will have to be accomplished. If a guy like Nate were added (while, presumably other players were simultaneously subtracted), he wouldn't just be dropped into the lineup and perform at his best while all his teammates automatically interacted optimally with him. Synergy doesn't happen overnight, and I believe that's what a lot of fans fail to take adequately into account.

Notwithstanding KG's return or Daniels' return or the recoveries of the walking wounded or the possible advent of new blood, it's going to be a two-month grind (with continued good health) to get this team performing anywhere near peak potential. This is the kind of team that doesn't overpower or "out-athleticize." It needs precision chemistry among both starters and bench to excel.

Sam
Sam
Sam
Admin

Posts : 22663
Join date : 2009-10-10

https://samcelt.forumotion.net

Back to top Go down

Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads) - Page 23 Empty Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 23 of 40 Previous  1 ... 13 ... 22, 23, 24 ... 31 ... 40  Next

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum