Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

[steve3344]

“Our defense was horrible in the third quarter,” Rivers said.

This was a quote after the N.O. game tonight. But I think Doc said the same exact thing after the Orlando game Sunday. In these last two games, the Celts have been outscored in the third quarter by a preposterous total of 65-23!

Way to come out of the locker room at haftime guys.

[cowens/oldschool]

Steve
As bad as this was,we still could have stolen this,but where was Quis last 5 minutes of fourth?He was our best player tonight,I would have went with Perk,Sheed,Pierce,Quis and Rondo.At 60-50 in 3rd Doc called a timeout that I thought was perfect as we hadn't scored in a few possesions,then we come out of the timeout and what the hell happened? cow

[swedeinestonia]

I did not watch the game but if KG is limping and not just being somewhat restricted by the brace he needs to rest, all-star and then some.

In general I think Doc needs to figure out a resting rotation for the Big 3. Maybe completely sit them out against "lesser" teams. Should give them a chance to rest up and heal up and also give some playing time to other people (which would be beneficial in the playoffs too).

By now they have to start taking some chances, we aint gonna catch up with the top teams anyway so being as healthy as possible by playoffs and having bench players that can play big minutes will be essential.

If they manage to do that anything can happen in my eyes, I am not saying they are likely to win but I also would not count it out. Something has to happen though cause the current plan is not working in the W column, it is not working in the health column and it is not working in the "team" column.

[MDCelticsFan]

People keep talking rest for KG. You can't legally turn back the odometer on a car anymore than KG can turn back the hands of time on his knees,same for Ray & Pierce. Buy them out, throw in the towel for this season, and let's get younger via the draft and get cap room for free agency. Anyone got Sweetney's number? Fire Ainge, maybe he can get a coaching job at BYU. Fire Doc, maybe he can land a PR job in the D-League!-MD.

[swedeinestonia]

I dont think KGs problem is so much that he is old as that he is playing hurt.

He looked pretty good for a while after the comeback but I think he just played too much, too fast and is probably partially re-injured or at least tired.

I am not giving up on these guys though, they had a really good stretch of games and it was not just luck. What they need is some confidence (god knows where they will find that) and some healthier/less tired legs (dont play the vets for big minutes every game).

Some teams do fine to ok with throwing more unknown players into the mix but it takes more coaching. Seems like Doc is just somewhat scared of making the "wrong" call. So he ends up making the... wrong call.

He just needs to get more active and confident in his coaching. Maybe the bench sucks too bad (although I think we are pretty deep), but he needs to do something different. I kind of liked what he did in early 4th Q against Orlando where he played the bench for an extended period. They did not do GREAT but they were trying and hustling. That also put pressure on the starters to bring it when it was their time.

The players need to feel pride as a team and accountability to each other. Right now they are very flat and discouraged. I think the problems are more psychological than anything else (and somewhat better managing of minutes).

Look at Phoenix early in the season, they were taking names and numbers. I do not think they got older all in a sudden, they just dont have the swagger as much anymore.

Just my 2 euro cents.

[112288]

Most of these guys were on the Championship Team. If they don't feel Celtic pride by now I do not know when if ever they will. There is got to be a division in the club house and it is spilling over onto the court. It's Ainge's job to fix it now since Doc obviously cannot!

112288

[Jerry Tarkanian]

Only saw the first half....lucky me....but DID also see my Rebs defeated as well.

Rebs also have a starter out and not in synch. Continuity and synergy lacking, parallels the C's.

Difference is in the NBA an option is to make roster changes, and with 7 expiring contracts that will have no value post 2/18/10 it would behoove DA and Doc to make moves to remain competitive this year and in the future before that date. Talk of a title run being dissipated by such moves this season is a far smaller risk than maintaining the status quo and then enduring a years long rebuilding process.

Tark

[Sam]

Jeb,

As far as "talking anyone down," I've had my say. I've tried to say it in different ways each time so it won't become a boring mantra. I feel I've discharged that responsibility. My comments are all available to reread.

My job right now is to make it possible for others to have their say in a public forum. They're free to take what I've said and said and said and said and said and said and said and said and said and said and said and said with a grain of salt. They're free to take whatever stance they wish with respect to this team. They're free to weigh the value of sharpening their creative writing skills in mocking this team versus exercising a sense of logic and reality in assessing the situation.

The imprint of my sentiments is everywhere in this forum, from the game-on threads to the post-game threads to the glimmers thread...and well beyond. The bottom line is that I expect the all-star break to represent both a symbolic and pragmatic "firebreak" that will enable everyone involved to take stock, make whatever moves seem appropriate (from rest to trades), refocus, and finally begin the process of coming together as a team. The bottom line is that I intend to enjoy the games, watch for both the problems and the glimmers, and eventually evaluate the long-term chances of the team not when it's playing at its worst but when it's playing at its best (which I hope will be in April). Perhaps, unlike some people, I've learned over the years that it is possible (when one is a passionate Celtics fan) to watch paint dry and grass grow. If that's what it takes, I'll do it.

In the meantime, I'll keep respecting and enabling people's rights to commit their perspectives to writing, perhaps to be available for future reference later in the season.

As for the game, I thought Marquis Daniels displayed (in only his second game back) the kind of glue he can be out there. Until desperation time, Sheed played a fine post game and acquitted himself quite well on the defensive end. I believe Doc held Rondo out to make a statement about Rajon's performance, at the expense of turning Collison loose, thereby demonstrating Doc's intent to wield a stronger hand where it has a chance to exert discipline. (Unfortunately, despite his nickname, he cannot make a difference on the medical front.) Tony spends a lot of time around the basket on offense, which is a plus for rebounding purposes but totally aborted any decent spacing last night.

These, and my earlier comments, will constitute my "official" post-game remarks for today. Enjoy the all-star break, everyone.

Sam

[KellyGreen17]

Who are these imposters and what happend to the real Celtics?

I don't think Pierce and KG should have played last night. They are clearly both hurting, and at this point in their careers they can't play hurt and still be productive. Is it written into their contracts that they have to be on the floor in the 4th? The bench was playing really well for us, building a lead in the first half and then cutting the deficit to 1 in the 4th. I don't blame this loss entirely on Doc, but he needs to start recognizing which guys have it going, rather than letting the auto-pilot take over and robotically subbing the starters back in once he see's the 5:00 mark in the 4th.

[jeb]

Sam

Okeydoke...it's def good to talk about it a way to stay somewhat sane.

It's only rock and roll

[cowens/oldschool]

kelly

Agreed how could Doc not have Quis on the floor at crunch time?The way Sheed was playing and the way KG was gimping,I mean playing,how do you not go with him,Sheed has best post game of our bigs,we needed him on the floor.Its okay to steal games too,all the good teams do it when they're off.....Doc burnt out Ray,made him ineffective.As bad as we played that one was still there for the taking.

[KellyGreen17]

Cow, it was definitely a winnable game if the C's played their cards right. I know that Quis has been out for a while, but he didn't even look winded to me. I see no reason that Doc should have put Pierce back into that game. Even Scal was playing better than him. Seems to me Ray was sorely missed. I know he hasn't been playing up to some people's expectations (mine included), but the C's look like a bunch of headless chickens without him. How many times did the C's carelessly chuck the ball out of bounds thinking that Ray was spotted up in the corner?

On the bright side, it was nice to see the bench players on the same page. It's too bad they didn't get the chance to get a much needed W for the team. They deserve it after all the games they've struggled.

[bigpygme]

swede said:
"I think Doc needs to figure out a resting rotation for the Big 3... Should give them a chance to rest and heal up and also give some playing time to other people (which would be beneficial in the playoffs too).
... being as healthy as possible by playoffs and having bench players that can play big minutes will be essential...
Seems like Doc is just somewhat scared of making the "wrong" call. So he ends up making the... wrong call...
Maybe the bench sucks too bad (although I think we are pretty deep), but he needs to do something different."

i agree with so much of what you said, thx for your post. this bench doesn't suck. going into the season our depth was supposed to be one of our greatest assets. in the Hornets game, they were the ones pulling our collective @sses out of the fire. Quis and Sheed in particular contributed well. the game before, Glen did really well, and i have to admit TA is coming along, though i've not been a booster of his.

but Doc's decision making on rotations on the floor mystifies me. cohesion and chemistry develop from playing together. instead Doc is mostly doing various odd mixes of starters and 2nd unit players - ocassionally using up to four of the 2nd unit plus a starter out there. very rare that players 6-10 are out there together. and the guys further down the bench get no playing time. zero. meanwhile PP and KG DO need some rest. again, the problem is Doc.

where's the trust - of Doc in his players, and consequently with the players in each other? it's not there. what about Ubuntu? it's not there. where's Celtic pride? aside from Rondo diving for loose balls (from knock-aways he creates), it's not there either.
seems to me that the philosophical core of the team is MIA in all these ways. who's in charge of leading this group into believing they can do it, believing in themselves and each other, bringing the defensive mandate, bringing the swagger back?

i think all of these issues start and end with Doc.

from the Globe today: "Indeed, the Celtics were not sure where to start with their postgame analysis. The simplest analysis was that poor defending led to a lack of transition offense, following a familiar pattern. The Celtics have topped 100 points only once in the last 13 games... 'They came out and played hard and we didn’t get back on defense early on [in the third quarter],’ said Celtics coach Doc Rivers. 'We just have to be better.'" Nooooooo - what we just have to do is rotate our players better, see who's playing well and play them.

last note: Ray didn't play. have we seen the last of Ray in a Celtics uniform?

my two cents ... regards, all

Michael

[Sam]

Kelly,

Astute observation about the corner pass-to-no one that Rondo threw. That stands out to me as last night's most prominent symbol of the dysfunction. There was a later instance, too—I think it was an inside-out pass from Sheed, apparently intended for Tony on the left side. It went several feet behind Tony.

I'm beginning to get the impression that, although we all love Tony's energy, slashing ability, offensive rebounding, and defense, the discipline of an offense suffers when he's in there. That, in turn, leads to more free-lancing on the part of everyone. No defense in the world can overcome the complete inability of an offense to score virtually every time down the floor. All the opponent's offense has to do is persevere and perhaps get a bit lucky or hit a couple of threes, and the game's suddenly out of reach.

I'm not blaming the malaise on Tony. I just think his attributes are better-suited to the bench, which seems to thrive on energy and adrenalin, whereas the starters need rhythm and precision (and spacing) in order to play to their potential.

Sam

[Jerry Tarkanian]

As one who has always looked upon the Celtic franchise as a model for an uptempo game base on defensive intensity, I wonder in a similar situation what Red might do.

I believe that he would mix things up to provide a change agent into the mix.

Any thoughts on what the impact of inserting Daniels into the starting unit and creating a powerful sixth man presence in PP would bring to the team ?

Just a thought I had during the first half I did see..................had I witnessed the second half I might share the pessimism prevalent today. I believe Pierce would initially object but with the Celt's tradition of having a starter quality piece in that slot predict ultimately he would acquiesce to the role.

Daniels impressed me last evening and seem to recall him being far more effective in Dallas as a starter than reserve.

Tark

[KellyGreen17]

Absolutely right Sam. Tony has done a lot of things right this year, but he has no clue how to play with the starters. He plays not to mess up when he should be playing to his strengths, which are his aggressiveness driving to the hoop and his pestering defense. If we lose a starter during the playoffs I hope Doc starts Quis instead of Tony. I think he's more adaptable than Tony.

Michael, I don't think it's fair to state that the C's problems is Doc. I do agree that he could have done a lot of things better, especially last night, but the players have to execute too and they've looked incapable lately.

[Sam]

Doc has been operating from a position of weakness (especially compared with expectations for this team) throughout the season. It's not just a matter of missing key members of the team. It's not knowing how much to be able to depend on the heretofore reliable attributes of some of the key players when they ARE in the lineup. And I'm sure we know only a portion of the disarray (perhaps psychological or attitudinal as well as physical) that has beset this team.

Sam

[bigpygme]

Ubuntu, anyone? i still think the philosophy at the core of the team's approach to the game is on Doc; secondly, the player rotations are obviously his call. both seem to me to be badly flawed. i know it's on the players to execute, but when they can't or don't, what happens next is on Doc.

i'm not in the locker room, so i'm missing that, and doubtless important things are going on there. i can only see what's happening on the floor. and on the floor it definitely hasn't been pretty, or cohesive, or ... drop your own list of problems here ...

thx for your comments, though.

Michael

[bobheckler]

Thanks to the rotation of the earth it's 3 hours earlier out here on the left coast. I was able to go to the gym and take my frustration out on some poor,dumb dumbells.

Our defensive rotation wasn't very good. The Collison penetration in the 4th quarter while 2 Celtics took one step and waved at him was a perfect example. If you're going to stop a player, you have to get in front him. All of you, not just your hand. The 3-balls NO were throwing in, though, were going in no matter what. We defended them fairly well, they were just unconscious. Our interior and penetration defenses, though, were not good. NO's interior defense was good last night.

Paul Pierce is playing selfish ball. I know he's injured, but that's all the more reason why he should let his teammates set him up instead of trying to do it all himself. How many turnovers did he have because he wouldn't give up the ball?

KG looks old. I mean really old. Maybe it's his injury and he'll recover, maybe this is it. He has no hops (there was that spin move on the baseline where he couldn't get the ball over the rim before he was blocked). The NO players were taunting him last night; telling him he's done and West could take him anytime. He doesn't scare anybody anymore. What's really sad is, I don't see him looking like he's taking it personally.

A lot has been made about chemistry, or rather the lack of it. The best players on the floor last night were Quis, Sheed, Davis and Scal. Players who are new to the team and/or have been out for an extended period with injuries and/or get very limited floor time. The worst players on the floor were the starters, primarily the 4 that have been starting together for 3 years now. A unit that developed good enough chemistry, in one year, to win a championship. Tony Allen, who started in Ray Allen's place, has been with the Celtics and has played (and started) with Rondo, Pierce and Perk since before Mssrs. Garnett and Allen arrived. This is not to say we don't have a chemistry problem, we absolutely positively do, but I'm starting to think it's NOT one due to LACK of familiarity. The Lakers, whose bench stinks, were able to beat a healthy San Antonio Spurs team without Kobe and were able to beat Jerry Sloan's Jazz convincingly without Kobe AND Bynum. Somehow, they were able to get over the loss of key players and FOCUSED on what it takes to win. They made the chemistry happen.

We were 2-11 in free throws in the 2nd half last night (thanks Steve). If you put Shaq or Ben Wallace on the line 11 times you'd get better results than that. That's not due to age or injury or lack of familiarity with the current lineup. That's mental.

Remember the "deer in the headlights" look the Lakers had in their eyes after we smoked them in game 4 in '08? That was when they realized they had NO chance of winning it all and we were supremely confident and became even more aggressive. They were intimidated and we were, well, not. Look in the eyes of our Celtics now. What look is that?

bob

[Sam]

Bob,

Chemistry involves vastly more than simple familiarity with one another. Some players complement one another better than others do.

Example: You mention that the Hornets had good interior defense. Of course they did. The Celtics made it easy for them by having no floor-spacer in the starting unit. Paul Pierce is not a floor-spacer because of his free-lancing propensities. Tony Allen is most comfortable being around the basket (driving, lurking for offensive rebounds, whatever). He's the opposite of a floor-spacer; he's a floor compressor.

The starters rely on rhythm and precision. Tony's more of an energy guy. The chemistry's not there between Tony and the other starters. Although his energy showed up the other starters by comparison, he wasn't where he was supposed to be on some glaringly awful possessions. He doesn't make any of the other starters better.

Tony has better chemistry with the bench, which feeds more off energy and the adrenalin produced by steals, breakaways, etc.; and Tony's slashing complements the outside shooting (if they're making shots) of Eddie and even Sheed. On the starting unit, his slashing is redundant with what Pierce is TRYING (painfully) to do. It's just a bad starting mix.

Sam

[swedeinestonia]

Situations like this always make me wonder how much the egos of some players prevent them from coming in as the 6th player or the such.

Imagine an intense second unit with KG locking down the defense where Tony and Rondo get to run and feed of an aggressive defense. Maybe play Pierce with them too.

I think a starting unit with Perkins/Sheed/Daniels/Ray/Rondo would do just fine against pretty much all teams and a second unit of KG/Davis/Pierce/House/Tony would probably tear apart most benches.

Maybe we need to realize that the team is not a display of a overwhelming starting 5 but instead a team that will wear the opposition down with quality players all over the court at all times.

[KellyGreen17]

Swede I think your last post is right on. I like your lineups, and I love the idea of spreading the HOFers out rather than playing them all at once.

When healthy, I still think we have the talent to win it all. It just needs to be used in the right way.

[cowens/oldschool]

Bob,

Chemistry involves vastly more than simple familiarity with one another. Some players complement one another better than others do.

Example: You mention that the Hornets had good interior defense. Of course they did. The Celtics made it easy for them by having no floor-spacer in the starting unit. Paul Pierce is not a floor-spacer because of his free-lancing propensities. Tony Allen is most comfortable being around the basket (driving, lurking for offensive rebounds, whatever). He's the opposite of a floor-spacer; he's a floor compressor.

The starters rely on rhythm and precision. Tony's more of an energy guy. The chemistry's not there between Tony and the other starters. Although his energy showed up the other starters by comparison, he wasn't where he was supposed to be on some glaringly awful possessions. He doesn't make any of the other starters better.

Tony has better chemistry with the bench, which feeds more off energy and the adrenalin produced by steals, breakaways, etc.; and Tony's slashing complements the outside shooting (if they're making shots) of Eddie and even Sheed. On the starting unit, his slashing is redundant with what Pierce is TRYING (painfully) to do. It's just a bad starting mix.

Sam

Sam very good points,Tony would be more effective if this was the Pierce and KG of 08,if something broke down,they could create on their own and for others,KG as repeated by many and witnessed by all is a shell of his former self.If hes playing this ineffectively the rest of the way,he should retire as hes morphed into Walter McCarty.Of the two players I think Pierce has a better chance of getting his game back.Larry Bird came off the bench in 82 for a stretch after an injury,I would have KG come off the bench for a stretch right now.Were in a funk,alot of problems,limiting KG from the pounding might be a good idea,I'd start Sheed with Perk.

[KellyGreen17]

If KG isn't going to start I think it would be better for Davis to start, not Sheed. I just think Davis plays better team defense, and he played really well starting for KG last year. Sheed is no spring chicken so he really shouldn't be playing extended minutes.

[Sam]

If KG were to be held out, I'd start Scal. I'd rather keep the bench as a united group rather than monkeying around with the continuity even more. That's where they have invited problems all season long; and it's time to develop the bench into a dependable, cohesive source of instant energy.

Scal's a chemistry and defensive guy (although not a scorer); and the starters have had difficulty in both of those areas. It worked well before when he subbed for KG. And, most important, Scal's more of an emergency part—not a permanent element of either the starting or bench units—so inserting him doesn't disrupt anything else.

Sam

[Sponsored content]