Re: Celtics Post-Game Thread (Collection of past threads)

[gyso]

It seems to me that when the shot clock is turned off, so is Doc's brain.

I get your point....but if you want to be technical, Doc is considered one of the BEST coaches in the NBA of diagramming last second plays. He has shown time and time again that he makes great calls in tight situations.

mrkleen,

I would agree with you if you had said, "Doc is considered one of the BEST coaches in the NBA of diagramming plays coming out of time-outs."

Just saying "Get the ball to Pierce" isn't a great call in a tight situation anymore. IMO. It may become a good call if Pierce ever is allowed to get his legs strong again. He is worn down a bit and it shows.

Hey, I'll be keeping track of these situations and I will be able to make a better informed conclusion later on.

gyso

[Sam]

I'm opening up the post-game thread for your posting pleasure. I'll join it later on. My "shoot-from-the-hip" impression: Rotten Celtics defense throughout the first half and some of the second—especially against the pick-and-roll (which is a huge problem for them on defense). Solid comeback play by Ray, Eddie and Glen (especially in tandem with Sheed.

Happy posting.

Sam

[cowens/oldschool]

I know hes trying,but KG looks like a shell of his former great intense take no prisnors self....he did sky for two defensive rebounds in last two minutes,but still can't convert alley opps,anybody see any other glimmers with KG?

[Sam]

Probably the biggest glimmers for KG is that he still has it from the perimeter and he retains his great playing ability.

But the defensive end is a problem I don't believe for an instant that it's a permanent problem, but it is inconvenient right now. He's used to having such quick reactions that someone can be halfway past him and he can still recover and stifle the guy. That's not now possible, so his powers of anticipation are sorely tested; and sudden shifts by opponents really bother him.

I don't know whether you see Comcast; but, after the game, KG was upset with himself for missing a couple of defensive assignments against Humphries. But I suspect what he was more bothered by was his inability to make the instant adjustment as has been his custom.

How much of the difficulty lies in his cast versus his physicality is open to debate. I happen to think the two are related. His physicality has been somewhat impaired, and the cast is intended to improve that situation. I believe it will. But it will take time, and the cast will somewhat mask the progress he makes in the interim. If and when the cast is removed or modified, that will be the time to start looking closely as whether he's making real progress. In the meantime, we can post our concerns with every passing game, but that won't speed up the process.

Sam

[Sam]

This was one of the least inspired games of the year, as the Celtics played down to the Nets’ level (and even a bit below) during the first
half (the Nets actually led 55-51 at the midway point). The Nets shot an astronomical 63% for the half, as virtually all of the
Celtics played matador defense. It seems as those the Celtics have to apply themselves with intensity when playing against a pick-and-roll offense; and they certainly didn’t do that in tonight’s early going.

In the third quarter, the Green’s defense stiffened, but their offense developed rigor mortis, and they trailed 73-72 heading into the fourth. Then a quintet of Sheed, Davis, a combination of Walker and Ray (playing forward), Eddie and Rondo started showing the way at both ends. On the game-on thread, I had noted after a few minutes of play that this could be one of those games in which the bench would have to take a major hand. And that's what happened—especially defensively—as they shut down the Nets for much of the fourth before the starters came in to wrap it up with about three minutes to play. The Nets went 5-20 (25%) in the fourth.

Sheed scored only seven points all night, but he anchored the defense quite well and, perhaps most important, shot only two of his seven attempts from outside. He attracted a lot of attention in the low post.

Glen Davis was very effective in 21 minutes, scoring 13 with only three rebounds (two offensive) but playing excellent defense, taking
charges, refusing to back down even to Brook Lopez.

Bill Walker may have made only one really good play during his nine minutes—freeing himself under the basket and making the two freebies that resulted. He had two turnovers and one rebound. But what he did was to be a placeholder that enabled Doc to keep Ray’s minutes down to 33 (which Doc said later was very difficult because he knew Ray was
ready to be a catalyst).

And, when Ray was finally inserted in the fourth, he proved to be exactly that. He was rock solid all night
long, scoring 26 points on 9-17 shooting which included 3-7 from three-point land and some fine finishes as a wing on the break.

Rondo was Rondo: 17 points, 11 assists, three rounds, and only two turnovers. He does sometimes seem bedeviled by Devin Harris, who scored 17 (many of them in the first half). But he seems to be firmly ensconced as the Celtics floor leader (although Paul Pierce may continue to make that interesting upon his return).

And finally, there was Eddie House. Eddie went a little wild in the fourth quarter, winding up with only 10 points (and being screwed out of a three-pointer on a 24-second call as well as missing a fast-break layup after his own clutch steal in the fourth). But, considering that he started out 0-5 and ended up 4-10, Eddie just picked up the pace as the game wore on.

KG (in 26 minutes) and Perk were okay, although rather ordinary by their own standards. Perk did snag six rebounds, and KG grabbed seven (all defensive), which may be somewhat of a good sign as rebounding seems to be his personally designated key to improvement. He does look awkward (due partly, I believe, to his cumbersome cast), on defense. Although he’d deny it, I don’t think he’s looking forward to having to participate in the all-star game.

Aside from the lackluster defensive start by the Celtics, the most problematic aspect of this game for me involved the few seconds down
the stretch in which (1) Rondo was harassed into an eight-second midcourt violation, (2) the Celts were whistled for a 24-second infraction, and (3) Eddie committed an offensive foul. That rapid succession of miscues should just plain
not happen to an experienced team at that juncture in a game they had all but put away.

Perhaps, after having throttled the Nets in the previous game, they could be forgiven for taking this one too much for granted. And they did come through in the fourth quarter as three of their struggling players (Ray, Glen and Eddie) led the way. But they’d better not come out so sluggishly against the Magic on Sunday.

Sam

[steve3344]

Sam,

The Magic will be an angry bunch Sunday after blowing that 21 point lead at home against the Wiz.

They should have known: Nobody beats the Wiz! At least not on Friday, Feb. 5th...

[Sam]

There was some good news in this game. Most important, it was the first time this season the entire team had been activated. I was
going to use the word “together,” but that certainly wouldn’t have described the third quarter, when the Celts went eight minutes without a point and saw a 51-40 halftime lead degenerate into a 14-point deficit. That was essentially the game, as the
ultimate news was just awful!

The Celts were very active in the first quarter, as the starters (led by Rondo) seemed ready to handle Orlando easily with some great
teamwork on the offensive end. But the Magic were missing a lot of open shots, which they finally started hitting against a Boston defense that never seemed particularly sticky except in short spurts. At the end of one, it was only 24-23 Boston. But, aside from
Rondo’s normally stellar play (17-8-9 with no turnovers for the game), the good news in this one was provided mainly by the bench.

Glen Davis (9 and 7 today) was really fierce under the offensive board and continues to hit his jumper. And old friend Marquis Daniels (8 points and 3 boards in 12 minutes) was briefly terrific operating out of the post. Frankly, Sheed, Eddie and Tony didn’t do much out there, but those two guys were sufficient to propel the Celts to most of the 11-point lead the Starters managed to safeguard until halftime.

Things were looking pretty good at the half. Although Perk was doing nothing offensively, he had collected zero fouls while Dwight Howard had played something like 8 minutes in the half due to accumulating two fouls very early and another in the second quarter.
But then the roof fell in on the Celts starters, who looked just terrible in the third. Their defense was completely shredded by the Magic’s inside-out game; and somehow Perk managed to become a foul machine although Orlando’s scoring damage was
being done mainly from three point land. Time and again, Nelson, Carter, Lewis and Pietrus took turns shelling the Celts. And, on their offensive end, the Celts starters retreated into their iso shell and accomplished virtually nothing.

The bench helped the Celtics to regroup somewhat going into the fourth, but the damage was done. The starters (minus Perk) managed to claw to within five, but Lewis hit a short dagger with about a minute left, and that was it.

Paul Pierce did manage to score 13 points in 30 minutes, but I think the Magic should demand a recount because I recall virtually none of them. They certainly weren’t “impact points.” I don't see what good it did to bring Paul back, and I wish he'd have sat out right through the all-star game. I would have preferred to see Tony in there slashing on one end and wreaking havoc on the other.

Sheed, Ray and Paul combined for 2-13 shooting from beyond the arc. The Celtics absolutely have to learn that, when the going gets tough, they must respond by going to the hoop and moving the ball to create good shots rather than playing “bomb and iso” ball. It may be significant that I looked when the Celts had their lead during the first quarter, and they hadn’t tried a single three. I guess it was too good to last, especially since so many of their attempts were hurried and even occasionally off-balance.

KG and Ray scored 13 and 14 respectively but needed 26 shots to sink 9 field goals between them. KG did collect 9 rebounds, which I found very encouraging because I know he’s focusing on that area. He also scored on a short alley-oop pass from Rondo.

Thanks to Glen and Quis and KG’s rebounds, I got a few glimmers out of this one. The Celtics actually outdid the Magic in three usually-important categories (6 more offensive rebounds, 4 fewer turnovers and 7 more assists). But the lasting impression was of a stinker that even drew a few third-quarter boos from the Boston crowd.

One more game to get through before what I expect will be a major regrouping and refocusing.

Sam

[steve3344]

One win in eight tries against the Hawks and Magic.

Ouch.

[steve3344]

Who woulda thunk our best three point shooter today would be...... Rondo!

2 for 2.

In the end, a VERY discouraging loss. And the worst quarter of play I think I've ever seen a Celtic team play. Not many times you'll be outscored by 25 in less than 12 minutes of play. Uninspired play at that...

[Sam]

That quarter was hard to believe. Actually Rondo looked pretty comfortable taking those threes. I was going to mention their three-point shooting percentage without his contributions, but I couldn't bring myself to do it.

Sam

[bobheckler]

I think it has become very clear that this is Rondo's team now. The offense plays better when the ball is in his hands. The other team has to hit their jumpers, which Orlando did in the second half, to score. Their point guards aren't penetrating often when Rondo's out there ("White Chocolate", Jason Williams, had fun with Eddie House though).

This is a good news/bad news thing. Having an all-star point guard who is only 24 years old and already knows what it takes to win a championship is a good thing. Having three future HOFers that are playing so poorly that they're not the drivers behind the team anymore isn't.

I agree with Sam's assessment of Davis and Daniels. I thought TA did well too. The 3 Amigos look like pale shadows of their former selves and Sheed owes the Celtics money because he sure as hell isn't earning his pay. And he thought the Celtics would post the best record in NBA history this past offseason? What a sad joke. Time to stop working your mouth, Sheed, and start working everything else. Nobody's afraid of you anymore.

Here's a cut-and-paste from Jeff Clark of Celticsblog. Sounds to me like Sam's prediction of movement after the all-star game is dead-on:

Though team president Danny Ainge has publicly ridiculed the Allen trade reports, several NBA executives told CBSSports.com that the Celtics have been actively trying to parlay Allen's $19.7 million expiring contract into an asset that could keep them in the mix during the upcoming playoffs and also help them for the next several seasons. The most recent inquiry, sources say, involved Sacramento sharpshooter Kevin Martin, who'd be a good fit with Boston's remaining core. Kings officials might be talked out of their reluctance to deal Martin if they could pry a prolific big man out of a third team brought into the discussions or in a separate transaction before the deadline.

The bottom line is that Ainge, who saved his job by pulling off the perfect storm of trades that yielded Allen and Garnett three years ago, has made it clear in private conversations that he's "not going back to the abyss," according to one person familiar with the discussions.

"Danny has said, 'I can't go back to square one where we were prior to the Garnett deal,'" the person said. "At the All-Star break, they’re going to look in the mirror and say, 'Cleveland got better, we can't beat Orlando, and we can't even beat the Hawks. We’re not going to win it this year.'"

bob

[dboss]

With the loss yesterday to the Magic, it is clear that there are a combination of things that are terribly wrong with this team.

Let's begin with the coaching. As I said before doc burnt his starters out last year and this year that trend continues.

Ray Allen played 40 minutes yesterday and while he started off strong when we need a basket in the 3rd QTR he had nothing to deliver.

Doc Rivers says all of the right things in his post game press conference but his song is getting tired. Has Doc lost this team or is his reverance to the team peaking order prevented him from pulling a guy out and sitting his ass on the bench when he consistently misses defensive assignments or fails to make the much needed extra pass.

KG is playing better offensively but defensively he has NOT come close to being the defensive stopper and help defender that is required under Tom "T" schemes.

Paul Pierce had no business playing in the game. And why on earth would he go to the Allstar game given the injuires he has had?

I like the play of TA, Uno uno, Daniels and the only true allstar on this team, Rajon Rondo.

This is not about chemistry as much as it is about a team that still relies on 3 aging stars whose light is a mere glimmer. This is a team with tremendous depth that is hampered by a coach that has not a glue on how to use that depth. This is a team that makes excuses after every loss because they still think they can win if only they do this better or if they do that better.

At this point I am not sure that is even a possibility.

As a group the window has closed for the big three so it is time to break it up. This year Ray Allen and next year bye bye PP.

This team is not going to get much better because they no longer have the energy to compete. And since Doc is not going to let those energy guys on the bench play a meaningful role, the embarassment will become greater as the season moves on.

A few more losses and this team will turn on itself. Rondo said it best " this team does not have the same spirit"

how bout dem saints?

dboss

[cowens/oldschool]

dboss

Sad but somewhat accurate accessment of this team,3 Amigos have aged at warp speed after a good start to season,they all have little in the tank and injuries are direct result of age,if games were 30 minutes,we'd still be an elite team,but the game doesn't cater to anyone.If you think Pierce looks off now,what happens in another 35 games or so if he has to go at a raging Lebron out to get everything come playoff time?Shaq for his 25 minutes or so actually looks alot better than KG.

What glimmers are there that KG and Pierce will get it together by playoff time?could go either way,if I'm C's management I keep Pierce out another 5 games minimum.All of Big 3 are not 35-38 minute players anymore,keep playing them like that you'll have mixed results and nothing left for playoffs.
Doc has not figured out best rotations and if any of Big 3 don't have it on a given night and are in a funk,got to sit em to preserve em and give us a chance.
cow

[bigpygme]

love this forum - and this particular thread has a lot of insgihtful shares by people who really know the game and the team.

the team does not present a pretty picture at this juncture. have to work hard to see the glimmers in such an awful game and unnecessary loss. Celtic pride appears missing, and talk of a trade is starting to echo in the halls. although i love Ray, he seemingly can't play the defense asked of him against those wing players (usually i hear "athletic") and still have much left on the offensive end. maybe he should be asked to do something different than do that cover and be offensive firepower too. (coaching decisions?) and whatever PP is doing just mystifies me.

here's a Chris Gasper excerpt from yesterday's Globe, for those who might have missed it (as i almost did).

The 96-89 loss to the Orlando Magic was enough to shake the faith of any Celtics fan in the ability of the Big Three to deliver this team back to the promised land. The Celtics out-rebounded Orlando (40-38), had more points in the paint (42-28) and committed fewer turnovers (11 to the Magic's 15) and still lost a game they led by 11 at halftime to drop to 1-3 against the Magic this year.

A fed up Rivers lit into his team, and the players held a team meeting led by the Big Three.

What precipitated both occurrences was possibly the most disappointing quarter of basketball the Celtics have played all season…

That should be enough for Celtics president of basketball operations Danny Ainge to recognize that he needs to seriously consider rebooting his team and breaking up Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce and Ray Allen. Translation: Cash in Ray Allen and his $19.7 million-plus expiring contract.

Allen would be The One to go because ownership loves Pierce, and Garnett and his troublesome knee are signed through the 2011-12 season.

a team meeting led by the Big Three sounds like a good thing. i hope something came of it.
the perception that PP is untouchable is perhaps unfortunate, but probably true. but he should still be subject to bench time when that's what his play or his health calls for.
which brings me back to Coach Rivers. i don't think this team is uncoachable, as another thread asks - not at all - but i sure don't like the coaching i see going on. why aren't some starters (e.g., Ray) getting rested more? and why not give the younger guys more time anyway? and where's player accountability in general? good play should earn you floor t ime, not a seat at the end of the bench. i don't know what a few days off over the All-Star Break is supposed to do ...

so welcome back, Quis - bet this isn't what you were expecting ! it sure isn't what I was expecting.

Michael

[Sam]

Michael,

I guess Pierce was held out of practice yesterday. I personally hope that continues and he misses the New Orleans game. And apparently Kobe may not play in the all-star game.

I sincerely hope that Paul Pierce will see how much sense it makes for him to skip the all-star game and the ridiculous long-shooting ego-booster. Let him apply for exemption from the league, be examined, and place the league in a position to face the wrath of many if they force him to play and he is further injured. I wish KG could do the same, but his position is weaker because he's been playing for a while.

As you know, my position is that the post-all star period will begin the "real" Celtics season. I'd like all the Celtics to be as refreshed as possible and ready to refocus and launch themselves on a new initiative.

Sam

[bigpygme]

Thanks for your thoughts, Sam ... always glad when you weigh in.

i know you've been pointing post-All-Star for a while now. i just don't know why the post-All-Star period will be substantively different from what we've been seeing recently - that Orlando 3rd Q was a nightmare - but i will continue to hope, and support and root.

i don't get Doc ...

still i look to find A Reason To Believe, as the song goes ...

[Sam]

Michael,

For some time, I believe the Celtics have been dragging around a millstone that has increased in size and weight as the season has worn on. From the thud of the Glen Davis escapade through the disappearance of Quis and the comings and goings and comings and goings and comings of KG—and given the periodic uncertainties involving guys like Sheed, Pierce, Perk, Tony and Rondo, the millstone just became heavier and the task more arduous. It's the cause of the dysfunction I feel was the inevitable result of lack of continuity (which is ironically the only consistency they've had all season long).

I believe that, throughout this ordeal, the one constant beacon in the eyes of the team has been some generalized feeling that they would finally be united around all-star time. And, in terms of bodies (though not nearly yet in terms of remedial continuity), that situation is now taking shape. I've had the feeling they've been lurching unsteadily and painstakingly toward that beacon; and they're finally there.

So I feel the all-star break will represent a tangible firebreak in the conflagration in which they've been immersed. A chance to step back momentarily; to shed the detritus created by the millstone; to refocus; and to start again with a clean slate. Whether or not the makeup of the roster will be altered is yet to be seen; but, if so, it's an ideal time to start anew the process of capitalizing on newfound continuity and starting to gain synergy as a team.

I'm about to start a thread related to that experience because I personally find it a very exciting prospect. Frankly (and with no disrespect intended toward any person) I've overdosed on the current, repetitive negativity and blame-assessment, as I feel it accomplishes nothing. I prefer to be more absorbed with what happens from now on.

And I, for one, will continue to be realistic about the progress of this team while offering it my strongest possible support.

GO CELTICS!

Sam

[Sam]

Here's the post-game thread for the Hornets game. I'll chime in later (when I cool down).

My quick read. Doc can talk all he wants about defense, but at some point you can't depend on shutting the other team out. Their hands were in the Hornets' faces on some circus shots. You also have to score. And I've seldom seen such a messed up starting Celtics unit in the era of the Three Amigos. The spacing was horrendous. Even when the game was close in the first quarter, Rondo threw a pass into the corner where Ray would normally be spacing the floor. No Celtic was within 15 feet of it. Collison killed them, and this was a game (before a long time off) in which Rondo should have come close to going the distance.

This ought to be a lively thread (or alternatively maybe everyone will boycott it).

Sam

[jeb]

I damn sure know how yall (sdcelt) felt after Orlando. Wow am I toxed out. Hard to believe the lack of effort. They just laid down and quit. They are not listening to Doc I fear. KG simply put should not be playing. He cant run. At all. Clearly limping and tonight he hurt the team. It aint his fault but it's time for him to play 20 minutes off the pine and be a sort of very expensive coach on the floor. Either that or bench him for the rest of the season and do what needs to be done to his knee in terms of rehab. so that he can come back unhindered at some point in the future.

He looks like he did when he tried to come back late last year. There is no sign of improvement. I mean the guy is limping. It cant be ignored any more.

It's over guys. That's what I am feeling at this moment. There is still a ton of time to right the ship but the ship appears to be the titantic. If a team has good team speed or one or two players with good team speed we have no answers. None. They just jet right around us and shoot layup after layup.

It's time I fear to start thinking about building a team around the younger guys that can compete in the future. PP and Kg need to have their roles limited. The nba has passed them by.

I had hoped that with teamwork and smarts we could begin to build and learn to adapt to our new clear physical limitations. But there is no sign of that happening. If we are up twelve it means nothing. Zero. And the teams around the nba know it. Just keep playing and they will wilt.

I hope to god I am wrong and this is all just me being toxed out by a bad run. I really do. But it is really starting to feel like it's time to face the facts...forget the past and start planning for the future.

[cowens/oldschool]

Sam were done,the nucleus of the team is all broken down and has aged at warp speed.I hate to say this,did you see KG tonight? it was as bad as watching Ali on his last legs getting pounded by bodyshots.Hes a broken thouroughbred,Allen Iverson has more in the tank than KG right now.....I feel like I just watched an episode of the Twilight Zone,this team just turned so dramatically overnight it seems.

[Sam]

Yes, Cow, I know KG has an injury. And I know Paul Pierce has an injury.

When I believe the Celtics have had an adequate opportunity to come together as a team this season, I'll try to assess their chances for a title. That should be some time in April.

Sam

[jeb]

Hellz sam

talk us down. were all on the ledge. nyc...gyso. Come in with something were not seeing. All you fellers give us some reason.

I feel the dynamic of the team must shift. The go to guys just aint go to anymore.

[112288]

Pierce seems to have had his mind on Dallas and not the 4th Q . he had 7 turnovers that period. Some All Star ain't he!

112288

[jeb]

11

It stung me hard cause he was moving so well in the first half. I am dazed and confused right now.

[steve3344]

Pierce seems to have had his mind on Dallas and not the 4th Q . he had 7 turnovers that period. Some All Star ain't he!

112288

112288,

Pierce didn't have 7 turnovers in the third quarter. He had 2. Here are his turnovers per quarter: 2-1-2-3, for a total of 8. But he was awful after the first quarter last night. After scoring 9 points on 3 of 5 shooting in the first 12 minutes, he shot 1 for 6 the rest of the way, ending up 4 for 11. His point totals per quarter: 9-4-0-2. And he didn't hit his first basket in the second half until there were only 21 seconds left and we had already lost.

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