Our best lineup could be without a point guard

Just a crazy rambone idea, and not applicable for the first couple months of the season:

Avery defends PGs
JBrown defends SGs
Crowder defends SFs
Olynyk defends PFs
Horford defends Cs

Horford and Olynyk are both elite passers and ball handlers for their size.

Jaylen Brown is a severely underrated ball handler in transition and in half-court when the paint isn't clogged up by bigs who can't stretch the floor. He's got more potential than anybody on our roster not named Rozier, and Brown might have more potential than Rozier.

With the above lineup, Jaylen would be our defacto point guard, but everybody would chip in, especially Bradley (gradually improving as a ball handler each year), Horford, and Olynyk.

This lineup would be a defensive juggernaut first and foremost, and the offensive style would be uptempo to the max. Most all of these above guys can pull up and shoot jumpers off the dribble in transition, with the possible exception of Crowder.

I believe that Jaylen could evolve into a superstar and MVP candidate in this scenario, similar to DWade in Miami with the Heatles.

Don't forget that Bradley and Smart was our starting backcourt even after IT first got traded here, and the Celtics played at the exact same winning % after the All Star break that year as they did last season with IT starting.

I know Brown is viewed as more of a Swing forward than a shooting guard, but he has all the tools to be a superstar SG bullying smaller guards and living at the FT line.

This lineup would also give us only one poor rebounding guard in the lineup instead of two, and it would completely erase Isaiah Thomas's defensive disadvantage against starting NBA PGs. This is the kind of lineup that can thrive not just in the regular season, but in the playoffs as well.

And our bench would probably be top 2 in the NBA:
IT
Rozier
Smart
Jerebko
Amir

Horford and Olynyk have real guard skills, and both are elite dribble drivers and drive-and-dishers for big men. Why not give them a shot at a larger role as playmakers, and ball handlers?

I'd love to see this lineup at some point this or next year.

Rambone,

Gotta give you credit for original thoughts.

1. You are putting a lot of responsibility and pressure on the shoulders of a rookie who has never laced up an NBA sneaker, a player one year out of High School.

2. None of those players are proven shot-creators. It might be good defensively but no "go to" guy on offense.


bob

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More each day, I come onto this board to get info on Jaylen Brown. It is way too early to put such responsibility on his shoulder but the sooner they do it the sooner he will blossom into a true NBA star. We all know our needs and Danny drafted for those needs this year. Unfortunately the rim protector and power force inside with the dancing feet were sent to China and another year in Euroball. Zizic and Yabusele will start next years upgrade before the draft does the rest. But this year is our current focus and it is up to Coach Brad to once again make do with what he has. One thot, if this team is as good defensively as it would seem it could be the need for a go to shooter in the starting lineup isn't as important to have as a go to guy situationally and at the end of the game. That is a lot easier to come by. Waiting to hear "Downtown Jaylen Brown" and "he stops and pops" and "Brown with a thunderous in your face dunk" and "Brown with the nice assist". Coming soon...just u wait and see.

There are no elite passers in that lineup and that is definitely not the best defensive lineup.

dboss wrote:There are no elite passers in that lineup and that is definitely not the best defensive lineup.

No elite passers in that lineup, as opposed to what lineup?

Russell Westbrook isn't a good passer. Jaylen seems to me like a much bigger Westbrook, but probably a better shooter.

IT wasn't known as anything but a scorer when we got him. That's why he had just signed a long-term contract for 7 million a year.

And Horford and Olynyk would be a big passing upgrade from Amir and Sully.

arambone wrote:

dboss wrote:There are no elite passers in that lineup and that is definitely not the best defensive lineup.

No elite passers in that lineup, as opposed to what lineup?

Russell Westbrook isn't a good passer. Jaylen seems to me like a much bigger Westbrook, but probably a better shooter.

IT wasn't known as anything but a scorer when we got him. That's why he had just signed a long-term contract for 7 million a year.

And Horford and Olynyk would be a big passing upgrade from Amir and Sully.

Rambone,

I concur with your comment about Kelly and Horford but Jaylen Brown a better scorer than arguably the best scorer (as opposed to "shooter", which would be Curry) in the league now that Kobe's gone?


bob


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arambone wrote:

dboss wrote:There are no elite passers in that lineup and that is definitely not the best defensive lineup.

No elite passers in that lineup, as opposed to what lineup?

Russell Westbrook isn't a good passer. Jaylen seems to me like a much bigger Westbrook, but probably a better shooter.

IT wasn't known as anything but a scorer when we got him. That's why he had just signed a long-term contract for 7 million a year.

And Horford and Olynyk would be a big passing upgrade from Amir and Sully.

Bone

The term Elite passer should only be used for Elite passers.  Chris Paul is an elite passer.  Rajon Rondo is an elite passer.  Bird and Bill Walton were Elite passers.  Tim Duncan is an elite passer.

Special players deserve to be classified as Elite.  Horford and Olynyk are good passers but there is nothing special about their passing abilities.. Neither of them are elite.  As a matter of fact there are two very distinct skills that no one on the Celtics roster can claim.  We do not have an elite passer on the team and we do not have a rim protector on the team.

dboss

Horford and Olynyk are both elite passers and ball handlers for their size.

arambone wrote:Horford and Olynyk are both elite passers and ball handlers for their size.

Rambone,

Terry Rozier is a GREAT rebounder for his size.  I wouldn't put a unit of 5 Roziers on the floor at one time and expect them to hold their own on the boards.

bob

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arambone wrote:Horford and Olynyk are both elite passers and ball handlers for their size.

Qualifying this notion is helpful

I however do not see where KO would fit into this category. I am not even sure how you would measure this.

I do know that Al has a 2.5 assist to TO's ratio and KO is at 1.5. In that regards Horford is probably the best Center in terms of making assist and limiting turnovers. Unfortunately KO is not even in the conversation.

As I have said many, many times there is only one advanced level skill that KO has and that is making 3 point shots although the overall volume remains low because he does not understand when to shoot or when to pass.

dboss

arambone wrote:Just a crazy rambone idea, and not applicable for the first couple months of the season:

Avery defends PGs
JBrown defends SGs
Crowder defends SFs
Olynyk defends PFs
Horford defends Cs

Horford and Olynyk are both elite passers and ball handlers for their size.

Jaylen Brown is a severely underrated ball handler in transition and in half-court when the paint isn't clogged up by bigs who can't stretch the floor. He's got more potential than anybody on our roster not named Rozier, and Brown might have more potential than Rozier.

With the above lineup, Jaylen would be our defacto point guard, but everybody would chip in, especially Bradley (gradually improving as a ball handler each year), Horford, and Olynyk.

This lineup would be a defensive juggernaut first and foremost, and the offensive style would be uptempo to the max. Most all of these above guys can pull up and shoot jumpers off the dribble in transition, with the possible exception of Crowder.

I believe that Jaylen could evolve into a superstar and MVP candidate in this scenario, similar to DWade in Miami with the Heatles.

Don't forget that Bradley and Smart was our starting backcourt even after IT first got traded here, and the Celtics played at the exact same winning % after the All Star break that year as they did last season with IT starting.

I know Brown is viewed as more of a Swing forward than a shooting guard, but he has all the tools to be a superstar SG bullying smaller guards and living at the FT line.

This lineup would also give us only one poor rebounding guard in the lineup instead of two, and it would completely erase Isaiah Thomas's defensive disadvantage against starting NBA PGs. This is the kind of lineup that can thrive not just in the regular season, but in the playoffs as well.

And our bench would probably be top 2 in the NBA:
IT
Rozier
Smart
Jerebko
Amir

Horford and Olynyk have real guard skills, and both are elite dribble drivers and drive-and-dishers for big men. Why not give them a shot at a larger role as playmakers, and ball handlers?

I'd love to see this lineup at some point this or next year.

this line up is a joke, the starting backcourt won't even be able to bring the ball up the floor half the time, there is NO ONE to initiate the offense, KO and Horford are not Grant Hill or Larry Bird at initiating an offense, rambone your regressing, you really don't know jackshit about lineups.....butt at least I don't have to see any more plus/minus crap, thank you.

some lineups you know and can't wait to see, some you dread to see, this one will thankfully never come to fruition, Stevens is not that dumb.

Brown, Horford, Olynyk, and Bradley are all capable of bringing the ball up the court. Probably Crowder too when he needs to. Bradley has come a long way in the last couple years as a ball handler.

The offense would be of the 7 seconds or less variety. Not a lot of plodding half court sets.

You're sleeping on Brown in a big way. He's as big a terror on the fast break with the ball in his hands as anybody in the NBA, and he can get to the rim as easily as IT can when the paint is empty.

Brown is a better ball handler than Smart because of his dominant athleticism. Smart and Bradley was our starting backcourt even with IT on the roster just 1.5 years ago.

Jaylen Brown highlights from last night.


One of the announcers said that Ainge was raving about Brown's passing ability, and how it wasn't on display at Cal. Just check out those nice dimes in the video above for an idea of what I was talking about with this post.

Imagine a 6'7, 230 lb point guard with a 7 foot wingspan...

Thank you Brooklyn!!! rambone I hope your right, I'm thinking we landed the best best player in the draft.....love his overall game and were just seeing the earliest baby stages, no question 5 tool player and raw with future all star ability. I know he can play the 2 and 3, point? we'll see.

cowens/oldschool wrote:Thank you Brooklyn!!! rambone I hope your right, I'm thinking we landed the best best player in the draft.....love his overall game and were just seeing the earliest baby stages, no question 5 tool player and raw with future all star ability. I know he can play the 2 and 3, point? we'll see.

Brown looked much better than Brandon Ingram looked last night.

Brandon Ingram looks like a tweener to me, doesn't have the strength to bang in paint with the big boys and not quick enough to handle most 3's, I'll take Browns versatility, burst and attitude over Ingram any day.

cowens/oldschool wrote:Thank you Brooklyn!!! rambone I hope your right, I'm thinking we landed the best best player in the draft.....love his overall game and were just seeing the earliest baby stages, no question 5 tool player and raw with future all star ability. I know he can play the 2 and 3, point? we'll see.

Cow,

Bad news:  He's a rookie who hasn't been scouted yet.  Once he is life will become harder for him.  He'll hit a wall because his preferences will become known and taken away from him.  It will take time and work to add to his repertoire so they can't just play him one way and stifle him.  Furthermore, this was against the Sixers bench.  This is as easy as it gets.

Good news:  The game is only going to get slower for him from here on.  Now, he's driving without a plan because everything is brand new to him.  TWO YEARS FROM NOW he could be a monster.  I hate building up players who just put on an NBA sneaker for the first time but the one thing about Jaylen Brown that has stood out to me is not his athleticism, but his maturity.  You could be in the NBA for 2 years and have zero growth to show for it (think James Young) or you could be an up-and-comer like Smart and like how Rozier is starting to look.  The difference?  Attitude.  Are you a worker?  Are you a show dog or a working dog?  Smart and Rozier are work dogs.  Every word I have heard come out of Brown's mouth from the moment he was drafted to now suggest he is a work dog too.

We need better shooting but damn!  Danny and Brad have assembled some Greyhounds with Doberman personalities.


bob
Btw, that was a beautiful baseline fade away by Brown and no look pass from Brown to Jerebko on the break.  Optimally, I'd like to see Brown center the ball to Rozier and then he can run a lane opposite Jerebko.  Good Gawd!  Can you imagine?  A greyhound like Rozier bringing the ball up court at warp speed and 6'7" uber-athlete Brown or 6'10" Jerebko finishing!?


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bob good call, I definitely prefer Jerebko over KO because of his defensive versatility and great to see Brown and Smart are developing post moves, things will get taken away, but I'm confident we have a future all star in the making, his ball handling and defense is already better than I expected.

BobH wrote:You could be in the NBA for 2 years and have zero growth to show for it (think James Young) or you could be an up-and-comer like Smart and like how Rozier is starting to look.

Brown is already an up-and-comer like Smart (and Rozier).

Just because a guy's a rookie doesn't mean he's two years away at best from being an up-and-comer. When Smart and Rozier were Brown's age, they were still in college, or in the case of Rozier, still in prep school or something.

We're watching the next big Celtics star, and he ain't no James Young either.

Confused. In what universe is Kelly Olynyk capable defending anyone but the weakest PFs in the NBA?

Ibaka, Favors, A Davis, Aldridge, Millsap, Green, Griffin, Gibson, Kanter, Young Randolph - they would all abuse KO time and time again.

mrkleen09 wrote:Confused.  In what universe is Kelly Olynyk capable defending anyone but the weakest PFs in the NBA?

Ibaka, Favors, A Davis, Aldridge, Millsap, Green, Griffin, Gibson, Kanter, Young Randolph - they would all abuse KO time and time again.

You're just confused. Olynyk also guards weak centers very well, and his help defense is boderline-elite because he's always in the right place and with max effort.

arambone wrote:

mrkleen09 wrote:Confused.  In what universe is Kelly Olynyk capable defending anyone but the weakest PFs in the NBA?

Ibaka, Favors, A Davis, Aldridge, Millsap, Green, Griffin, Gibson, Kanter, Young Randolph - they would all abuse KO time and time again.

You're just confused. Olynyk also guards weak centers very well, and his help defense is boderline-elite because he's always in the right place and with max effort.

KO is a good help defender who has good footwork for his size. But his on the ball defense is weak. Celtics are a much better defensive team with Amir and Horford side by side.

mrkleen09 wrote:

arambone wrote:

mrkleen09 wrote:Confused.  In what universe is Kelly Olynyk capable defending anyone but the weakest PFs in the NBA?

Ibaka, Favors, A Davis, Aldridge, Millsap, Green, Griffin, Gibson, Kanter, Young Randolph - they would all abuse KO time and time again.

You're just confused. Olynyk also guards weak centers very well, and his help defense is boderline-elite because he's always in the right place and with max effort.

KO is a good help defender who has good footwork for his size.  But his on the ball defense is weak.  Celtics are a much better defensive team with Amir and Horford side by side.

Hey Mr. Kleen!  How are you and the family?

I agree, mostly.

On a scale of 1-10, Kelly's

Man-to-Man defense is a 4.
Help defense is a 7.  MUCH better than his man and NBA acceptable.

Average it out, with Brad's swarming defensive schemes that minimize his man and favors his help,  and he is a 6.

His offense makes a lot easier for others.  He was a 40% 3 pt shooter last year.  That is a 60% eFG%.  That's good for anybody.  Without looking it up I'll bet Amir doesn't have a 60% eFG% and all his shots are <6'.

bob


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This stat says it all for me. It's cumulative +/- for the entire season last year among centers andPF/centers. Keep in mine KO missed 13 games and played with a dangling arm the last few weeks of regular season.

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1&PerMode=Totals

Olynyk was 9th, just behind Horford.

Now check out the year before if you think it was a fluke:
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1&PerMode=Totals

That kind of thing simply doesn't happen with a terrible defender playing 20 mpg.