Marcus - Great defense - But his shooting - ugly is an understatement

jrleftfoot wrote:I can`t speak for anybody else, but I`m not complaining about the pick. I`m just saying that 36% shooting , over the course of a career is not going to be acceptable in today`s NBA ,  no matter how good a perimeter defender you are. Bruce Bowen , as well as being one of the dirtiest players who ever lived, was as good a defender as you could ask for, but he was cut loose by the Celtics and didn`t get much playing time until he developed a propensity for knocking down threes. Then he became a mainstay of championship Spurs teams. I hope and expect that Marcus Smart will find a way to increase his shooting percentage, but  his physicality , which seems to lead to fairly frequent injuries, won`t in my opinion, carry him for long unless he learns to score the basketball. I`m not asking for Avery Bradley shooting. Jae Crowder would suffice. Or Tony Allen , for that matter.

Smart is a career 42% shooter on 2's and 30% from 3. He's averaged 64 games a season. 

Tony Allen is a career 49% shooter on 2's and 28% from 3. He's averaged 61 games a season over 12 years. 

Nobody is saying Smart doesn't need to improve his shooting drastically and avoid these minor injuries. But his superior ball-handling skills makes up for having a poorer shooting % inside the line than Tony, and he already shoots better from outside at an age when TA was still in school. 

The point I was making about Smart is if he doesn't improve AT ALL and keeps misses 15-20 games a year with an injury caused by his over aggressive play he will STILL have a long career similar to Tony Allen as far as his impact and a role as a 6th-7th man on a playoff team. This is true even if he doesn't improve his shooting and durability. 

Bruce Bowen shot 34% from 3 his first season with Boston in 97-98. He was injured in 98-99 and blocked by rookie Paul Pierce for  court time alongside Ron Mercer, which is why his mins went down that 2nd season. Blame Pitino, not Bowen improving his work ethic/outside shot, for why he didn't stick here. Rick chose his college player and lotto selection Mercer over the undrafted Bowen (another Kentucky guy Walter McCartey also got mins over him). Bowen was an impact player playing 28+ minutes and shooting great from behind the line almost from the day he left Boston. He really did little to improve his overall game. He was already 26 years old when he came to Boston and played the same type of game in SA as he did here. He improved his outside shooting #'s by like 5% and fit into a system with HOF'ers and Pop way better than he fit Pitino's system with 'Toine, Mercer and Pierce. Avery Bradley is a much better example of a guy known mostly for defense working hard to improve his shot age 20 to 24 than Bowen.

Ram wrote:

jrleftfoot wrote:I can`t speak for anybody else, but I`m not complaining about the pick. I`m just saying that 36% shooting , over the course of a career is not going to be acceptable in today`s NBA ,  no matter how good a perimeter defender you are. Bruce Bowen , as well as being one of the dirtiest players who ever lived, was as good a defender as you could ask for, but he was cut loose by the Celtics and didn`t get much playing time until he developed a propensity for knocking down threes. Then he became a mainstay of championship Spurs teams. I hope and expect that Marcus Smart will find a way to increase his shooting percentage, but  his physicality , which seems to lead to fairly frequent injuries, won`t in my opinion, carry him for long unless he learns to score the basketball. I`m not asking for Avery Bradley shooting. Jae Crowder would suffice. Or Tony Allen , for that matter.

Smart is a career 42% shooter on 2's and 30% from 3. He's averaged 64 games a season. 

Tony Allen is a career 49% shooter on 2's and 28% from 3. He's averaged 61 games a season over 12 years. 

Nobody is saying Smart doesn't need to improve his shooting drastically and avoid these minor injuries. But his superior ball-handling skills makes up for having a poorer shooting % inside the line than Tony, and he already shoots better from outside at an age when TA was still in school. 

The point I was making about Smart is if he doesn't improve AT ALL and keeps misses 15-20 games a year with an injury caused by his over aggressive play he will STILL have a long career similar to Tony Allen as far as his impact and a role as a 6th-7th man on a playoff team. This is true even if he doesn't improve his shooting and durability. 

Bruce Bowen shot 34% from 3 his first season with Boston in 97-98. He was injured in 98-99 and blocked by rookie Paul Pierce for  court time alongside Ron Mercer, which is why his mins went down that 2nd season. Blame Pitino, not Bowen improving his work ethic/outside shot, for why he didn't stick here. Rick chose his college player and lotto selection Mercer over the undrafted Bowen (another Kentucky guy Walter McCartey also got mins over him). Bowen was an impact player playing 28+ minutes and shooting great from behind the line almost from the day he left Boston. He really did little to improve his overall game. He was already 26 years old when he came to Boston and played the same type of game in SA as he did here. He improved his outside shooting #'s by like 5% and fit into a system with HOF'ers and Pop way better than he fit Pitino's system with 'Toine, Mercer and Pierce. Avery Bradley is a much better example of a guy known mostly for defense working hard to improve his shot age 20 to 24 than Bowen.

Smart is shooting 36 percent from the field for his career . Bradley was and is a better shooter than smart. I never suggested that Smart couldn`t be a good 6th or 7th man in the league, nor did I suggest that Bowen improved his " overall game." A 5% shooting improvement is huge. Are you going to tell me that improving from a 40 percent shooter to 45  or 45 to 50 is not significant? Bowen was an exemplar of a guy that improved as a shooter, for whatever reason. You keep moving the goal posts. IMO 36% shooting, no matter where you are shooting the ball from, doesn`t make it in the NBA. Tony Allen had sense enough to realize he wasn`t a three point shooter , so comparing his 3 point percentage with that of Smart , who jacks them up as if they were  going out of style, is  pretty meaningless. Smart either needs to  substantially improve his 3 pt. shooting or quit taking so many of them.  If Smart doesn`t improve his shooting AT ALL , he isn`t Tony Allen. He isn`t even Bruce Bowen. Feel free to disagree. That`s what message boards are for.

jrleftfoot wrote:

Smart is shooting 36 percent from the field for his career . Bradley was and is a better shooter than smart. I never suggested that Smart couldn`t be a good 6th or 7th man in the league, nor did I suggest that Bowen improved his " overall game." A 5% shooting improvement is huge. Are you going to tell me that improving from a 40 percent shooter to 45  or 45 to 50 is not significant? Bowen was an exemplar of a guy that improved as a shooter, for whatever reason. You keep moving the goal posts. IMO 36% shooting, no matter where you are shooting the ball from, doesn`t make it in the NBA. Tony Allen had sense enough to realize he wasn`t a three point shooter , so comparing his 3 point percentage with that of Smart , who jacks them up as if they were  going out of style, is  pretty meaningless. Smart either needs to  substantially improve his 3 pt. shooting or quit taking so many of them.  If Smart doesn`t improve his shooting AT ALL , he isn`t Tony Allen. He isn`t even Bruce Bowen. Feel free to disagree. That`s what message boards are for.

If Marcus doesn't improve his shooting at all he will shoot 7% worse than Tony from inside the line, 2% BETTER from 3 and if he still misses an average of 18 games a season it will be 3 more games per year than Tony plays on average. All with the same elite defense and better ball-handling. That is definitely a Tony Allen type career/impact/role player. 

I didn't move any goal posts, those are just FACTS. 

You implied Bruce Bowen went on this multi-season odyssey of self-improvement and working on his game like crazy adding an outside shot or he would have been out of the league. He was overall the same player in SA that he was here. He was just put in a system where he got to take lots of open shots and fit in better than what he was asked to do in Boston, which was take a back seat to Pierce and Mercer and compete with Walter and Eric Williams for minutes in Pitino's more exhausting press system where he didn't have lots of great looks and wasn't just sitting around getting corner 3's. 

He was never a guy shooting 28-30% on 3's over 128+ games/2 seasons who had to work, work, work like Marcus will just to get to an acceptable 34%. He showed up shooting that and Pop just took him for the player he was and he fit like a glove in SA where he did not fit as well here. Smart very well might fit like a glove as a 6th man in Boston for many years with little to no improvement in his shooting (just less 3's/more 2's like TA discovered he needed to do).

The point is Smart can adjust his game without major improvements and be a Tony Allen/Bowen type player for a contender. We all just hope he takes a huge step and becomes MUCH better.

What I SAID was that Smart needed to improve his shooting. I didn`t express any opinion about how Bowen improved his shooting pecentage. If you disagree with my STATEMENT  that Smart needed to become a better shooter , fine, let`s carry on this discussion. If you want to argue about what you think I implied, forget it. While an extended discussion about the relative merits of Rick Pittino and Greg Popovich , the effects of their systems on the likes of Bruce Bowen etc. might be interesting in some context , this, in my opinion isn`t it. You can continue to construct straw men and joust with them if you like. I never said, nor implied , that Marcus Smart wasn`t a good draft choice, nor that he couldn`t become an outstanding player. I didn`t bring Bowen up for any other reason than the fact that his improvement as a shooter made it possible for him to succeed in the league.  Whatever you think I was implying is yours, not mine.I happen to think Marcus Smart, whose shooting percentage , as Swish pointed out , was 40th among 41 guards in the needs to improve his shooting. Period.

swish wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:

swish wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:

swish wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:Marcus Smart's offense is much better than Tony Allen, and his defense is about equal, how much grit and value did we lose when TA left? I can't think of a better guard defender in the NBA, except Avery Bradley, this year both AB and MS could be starting first team all defensive.

 "Marcus Smart's offense is much better than Tony Allen,"

  Are you sure you want to stick with your above statement?

  swish

I meant his offense is much better than TA's offense and defensively they are both pitbulls, about equal defensively to my eyes.

 Field goal percentage average for their 1st 2 years in the league.
     Smart - .357
     Allen - .473 ------ Allen's lifetime fg% is .477

Smart will have to have a big time improvement in his shooting touch - if he hopes to duplicate Allen's shooting percentages.

  swish  

whos a better ball handler? passer? who can play point offensively for extended stretches helping the team? and who is an adventure with the ball, your just hoping he doesn't lose it or turn it over? Stats certainly don't always tell the whole story, TA might have a higher fg% than Kobe Bryant in certain years....and I really don't want to knock TA, hes one of my favorite players. TA for a decent part of his career was playing off the Big 3, he could get easy looks playing off those guys, Smart has to initiate the offense and even as a rookie had way more responsibility.

  Looks like a wash to me - Allen is a non- ball handling guard - and Smart is a non shooting ball handling guard

 swish

I beg to differ, Smart could make plays as a rookie learning the game that TA couldn't even dream of, Smart is a legit combo guard that knows how to make the right play, TA's offense is so limited. On the Grizz he was playing off 2 all star caliber bigs that can post and a borderline all star point that can set him up and the major weakness on that team for years was not enough scoring from the 2-3 swingman positions. That team needed more versatile offense from the wing and as much as I love Tony the hound dog, he couldn't do that. While I agree Smart was given too much free rein to bomb away from 3, his driving game because of his ball handling is light years ahead of TA and he has legit vision and passing touch, I constantly see him making passes and plays TA couldn't dream of. If Smart was playing with the Grizz he'd make those 2 bigs so much better with easy baskets that TA just never could do. Smart can be a legit point guard, even having him off the ball as a 2, you still need 2's that can make plays and Smart has it.....LOOK what Horford said about Smarts game and intelligence in another thread.

cowens/oldschool wrote:

swish wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:

swish wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:

swish wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:Marcus Smart's offense is much better than Tony Allen, and his defense is about equal, how much grit and value did we lose when TA left? I can't think of a better guard defender in the NBA, except Avery Bradley, this year both AB and MS could be starting first team all defensive.

 "Marcus Smart's offense is much better than Tony Allen,"

  Are you sure you want to stick with your above statement?

  swish

I meant his offense is much better than TA's offense and defensively they are both pitbulls, about equal defensively to my eyes.

 Field goal percentage average for their 1st 2 years in the league.
     Smart - .357
     Allen - .473 ------ Allen's lifetime fg% is .477

Smart will have to have a big time improvement in his shooting touch - if he hopes to duplicate Allen's shooting percentages.

  swish  

whos a better ball handler? passer? who can play point offensively for extended stretches helping the team? and who is an adventure with the ball, your just hoping he doesn't lose it or turn it over? Stats certainly don't always tell the whole story, TA might have a higher fg% than Kobe Bryant in certain years....and I really don't want to knock TA, hes one of my favorite players. TA for a decent part of his career was playing off the Big 3, he could get easy looks playing off those guys, Smart has to initiate the offense and even as a rookie had way more responsibility.

  Looks like a wash to me - Allen is a non- ball handling guard - and Smart is a non shooting ball handling guard

 swish

I beg to differ, Smart could make plays as a rookie  learning the game that TA couldn't even dream of, Smart is a legit combo guard that knows how to make the right play, TA's offense is so limited. On the Grizz he was playing off 2 all star caliber bigs that can post and a borderline all star point that can set him up and the major weakness on that team for years was not enough scoring from the 2-3 swingman positions. That team needed more versatile offense from the wing and as much as I love Tony the hound dog, he couldn't do that. While I agree Smart was given too much free rein to bomb away from 3, his driving game because of his ball handling is light years ahead of TA and he has legit vision and passing touch, I constantly see him making passes and plays TA couldn't dream of. If Smart was playing with the Grizz he'd make those 2 bigs so much better with easy baskets that TA just never could do. Smart can be a legit point guard, even having him off the ball as a 2, you still need 2's that can make plays and Smart has it.....LOOK what Horford said about Smarts game and intelligence in another thread.

Your a big Smart fan - and I'm not. In a game that now depends so much on the long range shooting of its guards its hard for me to get excited about a player that is perhaps the biggest negative 3 point shooter in the league - especially on a team that ranked 28 last year in 3 point shooting. I suppose that there is always the chance that he will develop a shooters touch - and if he does I'm sure I'll have a much different opinion about his role with the Celtics. So for the moment we can disagree on this subject and as the season progresses revisit this issue to see how its all playing out as speculation gives way to reality.

swish

jrleftfoot wrote:What I SAID was that Smart needed to improve his shooting. I didn`t express any opinion about how Bowen improved his shooting pecentage. If you disagree with my STATEMENT  that Smart needed to become a better shooter , fine, let`s carry on this discussion. If you want to argue about what you think I implied, forget it. While an extended discussion about the relative merits of Rick Pittino and Greg Popovich , the effects of their systems on the likes of Bruce Bowen etc. might be interesting in some context , this, in my opinion isn`t it. You can continue to construct straw men and joust with them if you like. I never said, nor implied , that Marcus Smart wasn`t a good draft choice, nor that he couldn`t become an outstanding player. I didn`t bring Bowen up for any other reason than the fact that his improvement as a shooter made it possible for him to succeed in the league.  Whatever you think I was implying is yours, not mine.I happen to think Marcus Smart, whose shooting percentage , as Swish pointed out , was 40th among 41 guards in the needs to improve his shooting. Period.

You need to chill out with all this. You claim it is a forum where people can disagree than act all offended like I put words in your mouth when I simply stated FACTS that could prove your opinion wasn't correct. I did not personally attack you or say Smart didn't need to improve his shooting. The goal post moving and straw men are all from your end. 

I said Bowen was a pretty complete 26 yr old product in Boston who needed a new system to blossom. He was not cut because he was a defense only guy who couldn't hit a shot like Smart. He didn't need to add one to stay in the league. That is what you were saying and it is obvious to anyone. Their situations are totally different. 

You also said Smart will not be better than Tony Allen if he doesn't improve his shooting and durability. But many here said all he has to do is stay the same and be just as good or impactful a player for his career as TA has been AND he's already more durable based on per season avg games played. 

We get it, Smart needs to improve his shooting. Now can we move on? Because stats and the truth kinda proved all that Bowen/TA stuff you said to just be smoke blown up my you know what.

Look at it from Ainge's position in 2014. We needed to draft a PG to be the Rondo replacement, a SF to be the Green replacement or the elusive rim-protecting big for the rebuilt. The other position(s) could hopefully then be filled by Rondo and Green trades.

Embiid was off the table and we weren't lucky enough to get one of Wiggins, Parker or Gordon or even Exum. It was Smart, LaVine or Elfrid Payton and I'm pretty sure the jury is still out there. 

The Celtics decided to go scoring SF at 17 over rim-protector (who would have/should have been Capela). They then chose Young over Rodney Hood. Another miss. So really, what Ainge did at pick 3 wasn't nearly as poor a choice as what he did at 17. This team would be way better with Capela/Hunter on this team over Zeller/Young or Hood on this team over Young right now. 

Young has still just turned 21, so he can prove me wrong!

Ram wrote:

jrleftfoot wrote:What I SAID was that Smart needed to improve his shooting. I didn`t express any opinion about how Bowen improved his shooting pecentage. If you disagree with my STATEMENT  that Smart needed to become a better shooter , fine, let`s carry on this discussion. If you want to argue about what you think I implied, forget it. While an extended discussion about the relative merits of Rick Pittino and Greg Popovich , the effects of their systems on the likes of Bruce Bowen etc. might be interesting in some context , this, in my opinion isn`t it. You can continue to construct straw men and joust with them if you like. I never said, nor implied , that Marcus Smart wasn`t a good draft choice, nor that he couldn`t become an outstanding player. I didn`t bring Bowen up for any other reason than the fact that his improvement as a shooter made it possible for him to succeed in the league.  Whatever you think I was implying is yours, not mine.I happen to think Marcus Smart, whose shooting percentage , as Swish pointed out , was 40th among 41 guards in the needs to improve his shooting. Period.

You need to chill out with all this. You claim it is a forum where people can disagree than act all offended like I put words in your mouth when I simply stated FACTS that could prove your opinion wasn't correct. I did not personally attack you or say Smart didn't need to improve his shooting. The goal post moving and straw men are all from your end. 

I said Bowen was a pretty complete 26 yr old product in Boston who needed a new system to blossom. He was not cut because he was a defense only guy who couldn't hit a shot like Smart. He didn't need to add one to stay in the league. That is what you were saying and it is obvious to anyone. Their situations are totally different. 

You also said Smart will not be better than Tony Allen if he doesn't improve his shooting and durability. But many here said all he has to do is stay the same and be just as good or impactful a player for his career as TA has been AND he's already more durable based on per season avg games played. 

We get it, Smart needs to improve his shooting. Now can we move on? Because stats and the truth kinda proved all that Bowen/TA stuff you said to just be smoke blown up my you know what.

Okay, I must have meant what you thought I meant without knowing it. Chillin.

jrleftfoot wrote:
Okay, I must have meant what you thought I meant without knowing it. Chillin.

Ha, pretty sure that still is supposed to make me feel dumb, but it's all good. No worries. 

Smart is a polarizing figure for sure. We all wish we could have had guys like Chris Paul or John Wall but we have guys like Rondo and Smart for the past decade to tantalize us with certain skills and drive us nuts with their lack of others. 

I just think those who get up in arms about Smart are really more annoyed that this team finally had the #6 pick and couldn't get a sure-fire all-star out of it than they are annoyed at the person/player we have on the club. He is a solid contributor off the bench who remains just 22 years old with room to grow. 2014 was a pretty weak draft. 

The 6th pick in 2015 could have gotten us Cauley-Stein, Justise Winslow, Stanley Johnson or Myles Turner

2013 Noel, Cauldwell-Pope, Giannis or Steven Adams

2012 Lillard, Drummond or Barnes

But unfortunately the C's were picking 6th in 2014.

Smart should definitely take less 3's. He's taken 4 a game each of his first two seasons and while he hit .335 as a rookie he bottomed out at .253 last year. 

I think most people here would be ok if he gets back to the .335 percentage this season in about 3 attempts per game. If he goes 1-3 every game from behind the line and continues to show that he will improve there in at least the way Avery did and not be another Rondo everybody can be happy. 

He did raise his FT % from .646 to .777 his second year and up his attempts from 1.9 to 2.7 per game. I'd love to see him become even more aggressive there. Lillard attempted 4.9-6.2 FT's per game the last 3 seasons. Westbrook is at 6.8 and 81% for his career. I'd like to see Smart at 5 per game and 80%+

Finally there was the dismal .405 percent on 2's last year, down from .462 as a rookie. A slight improvement on his rookie #'s, but a big jump from last year to Tony Allen territory (49%) would make me very happy. Do that while attempting 8 shots inside the arc a game (instead of 6) and everybody would be pretty happy. Really he'd just be replacing one 3 pointer a game with two drives, one that ends at the line and another a 50% chance of going in. 

That would make him a 43-45% shooter overall (up from 35) and he'd be scoring 14-15 points a game to go with his hard-nosed D and slight upticks in other stats, more ball-handling with Turner gone, would put him at say 5 assists, 4 rebs and 2 steals in 28-32 mins. 

THAT is what I am hoping for and what would be worthy of the #6 pick.

Ram wrote:Smart should definitely take less 3's. He's taken 4 a game each of his first two seasons and while he hit .335 as a rookie he bottomed out at .253 last year. 

I think most people here would be ok if he gets back to the .335 percentage this season in about 3 attempts per game. If he goes 1-3 every game from behind the line and continues to show that he will improve there in at least the way Avery did and not be another Rondo everybody can be happy. 

He did raise his FT % from .646 to .777 his second year and up his attempts from 1.9 to 2.7 per game. I'd love to see him become even more aggressive there. Lillard attempted 4.9-6.2 FT's per game the last 3 seasons. Westbrook is at 6.8 and 81% for his career. I'd like to see Smart at 5 per game and 80%+

Finally there was the dismal .405 percent on 2's last year, down from .462 as a rookie. A slight improvement on his rookie #'s, but a big jump from last year to Tony Allen territory (49%) would make me very happy. Do that while attempting 8 shots inside the arc a game (instead of 6) and everybody would be pretty happy. Really he'd just be replacing one 3 pointer a game with two drives, one that ends at the line and another a 50% chance of going in. 

That would make him a 43-45% shooter overall (up from 35) and he'd be scoring 14-15 points a game to go with his hard-nosed D and slight upticks in other stats, more ball-handling with Turner gone, would put him at say 5 assists, 4 rebs and 2 steals in 28-32 mins. 

THAT is what I am hoping for and what would be worthy of the #6 pick.

I am actually o.k. with the Smart pick. ( Heck, I even liked it when he smacked that racist fan when he was in college.) He seems to rise to the occasion and is probably the best of a crew of pretty good rebounders at the guard position. (Rozier , too , is a helluva rebounding guard .) I hope and expect that his shooting , or at least his shot selection , will improve. I agree that he should use his strength and drive to the basket more often. All I was trying to say, maybe in a somewhat tone deaf way, was that he has to find a way to raise that shooting percentage somehow or another. I have a tendency to get overly prickly sometimes, so everybody feel free to call me on it.

swish I think as great a coach as Stevens is, he has had/let Smart take way too many 3's, however there are still players like Dwayne Wade and Rondo who never had a great or respectable 3 point shot and still found their niche and made multiple all star teams. I'll take a talented physical player that can make a significant impact in a few or many areas over a wus that can only shoot 3's like a KO, Mike Dunleavy or Steve Novak anyday, you can't win with a roster of those players either. I enjoy when Smart enters the game and changes the complexion with his defense and tenacity, those kind of plays have as much impact on the game or more as 3's IMHO. For example as a starting center, would you rather have DeAndre Jordan, Rudy Gobert or Kelly Olynck? I don't mean to bash Kelly, but I'm trying to make a point that there are other aspects to the game then just shooting 3's that influence winning.

jr your okay, I love gritty relentless defensive players like Marcus Smart. I think Dave Cowens and Paul Maul Silas would love playing with him and as great as DJ and Don Chaney were in their time, defenders like AB and Smart have taken defense at the guard position to an even higher level. I'm pining for 2 Celtics to be starting in the backcourt for this years all defensive first team.

cowens/oldschool wrote:jr your okay, I love gritty relentless defensive players like Marcus Smart. I think Dave Cowens and Paul Maul Silas would love playing with him and as great as DJ and Don Chaney were in their time, defenders like AB and Smart have taken defense at the guard position to an even higher level. I'm pining for 2 Celtics to be starting in the backcourt for this years all defensive first team.

+ 1---Paul Maul Silas----lol

Ram wrote: 

I think most people here would be ok if he gets back to the .335 percentage this season in about 3 attempts per game. If he goes 1-3 every game from behind the line and continues to show that he will improve there in at least the way Avery did and not be another Rondo everybody can be happy. 

ck.

Heck I'd be happy if he never shot another 3 again.. ever. Even in practice. DO what ur good at and stick to that.

cowens/oldschool wrote:swish I think as great a coach as Stevens is, he has had/let Smart take way too many 3's, however there are still players like Dwayne Wade and Rondo who never had a great or respectable 3 point shot and still found their niche and made multiple all star teams. I'll take a talented physical player that can make a significant impact in a few or many areas over a wus that can only shoot 3's like a KO, Mike Dunleavy or Steve Novak anyday, you can't win with a roster of those players either. I enjoy when Smart enters the game and changes the complexion with his defense and tenacity, those kind of plays have as much impact on the game or more as 3's IMHO. For example as a starting center, would you rather have DeAndre Jordan, Rudy Gobert or Kelly Olynck? I don't mean to bash Kelly, but I'm trying to make a point that there are other aspects to the game then just shooting 3's that influence winning.

cowens

   When your team is loaded with super star scorers - like the 07-08 Celts - you can carry a couple offensively challenged scorers like Rondo and Perkins - a luxury that Smart does not have.  So as long as basketball requires players to play at both ends of the court, Brad will be confronted with evaluating Smarts net worth in regards to his offensive versus defensive contributions.  And how will this season play out for Smart.  Don't ask me now (speculation is subject to bias) - ask me in June when hindsight will rule the day.

   swish

swish wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:swish I think as great a coach as Stevens is, he has had/let Smart take way too many 3's, however there are still players like Dwayne Wade and Rondo who never had a great or respectable 3 point shot and still found their niche and made multiple all star teams. I'll take a talented physical player that can make a significant impact in a few or many areas over a wus that can only shoot 3's like a KO, Mike Dunleavy or Steve Novak anyday, you can't win with a roster of those players either. I enjoy when Smart enters the game and changes the complexion with his defense and tenacity, those kind of plays have as much impact on the game or more as 3's IMHO. For example as a starting center, would you rather have DeAndre Jordan, Rudy Gobert or Kelly Olynck? I don't mean to bash Kelly, but I'm trying to make a point that there are other aspects to the game then just shooting 3's that influence winning.

cowens

   When your team is loaded with super star scorers - like the 07-08 Celts - you can carry a couple offensively challenged scorers like Rondo and Perkins - a luxury that Smart does not have.  So as long as basketball requires players to play at both ends of the court, Brad will be confronted with evaluating Smarts net worth in regards to his offensive versus defensive contributions.  And how will this season play out for Smart.  Don't ask me now (speculation is subject to bias) - ask me in June when hindsight will rule the day.

   swish

thats true swish, but young Rondo and Perk were also good complimentary role players that exceeded on the defensive end. The 71-72 Celtics needed Paul Silas to get over the top, they didn't need more offense, they needed more toughness and rebounding, acquiring Silas led to the franchises best record in 72-73. There are plenty of teams that could use and flourish with a Marcus Smart. As much as the game is pace and space and 3's, you still need defensive forces on the floor and Smart maybe the best 6'4" defender in the league, if not he is in the conversation and top 2 or 3 at worst.

....and sure am glad we didn't end up with Dante Exum, who I liked at draft time that year.

cowens/oldschool wrote:....and sure am glad we didn't end up with Dante Exum, who I liked at draft time that year.

Cow,

That's why it's a crap shoot and prefer trading the pick instead of using it.  The exception would be a top 3-5 pick.  If you can draft a game-changer like an Anthony Davis or Kevin Durant you do it, otherwise I say start shopping it.  

Smart was the #6 pick and he is a non-factor on offense.  The name of the game, and I believe I am at least paraphrasing if not quoting Red here, "to score more points than the other team".  And that was a guy who coached the #1 All-Time paradigm of defense, Bill Russell, and his college roommate and also great defender K.C. Jones.  So, it's not like we're talking Doug Moe here. Red understood and appreciated the value of defense.

And yes, so far, Smart is a much better pick than Exum.  Then again, Exum missed an entire year from injury., so he is a year behind Smart in development (and Smart has Brad Stevens, a great developer of talent, to help him).


bob


.

bobheckler wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:....and sure am glad we didn't end up with Dante Exum, who I liked at draft time that year.

Cow,

That's why it's a crap shoot and prefer trading the pick instead of using it.  The exception would be a top 3-5 pick.  If you can draft a game-changer like an Anthony Davis or Kevin Durant you do it, otherwise I say start shopping it.  

Smart was the #6 pick and he is a non-factor on offense.  The name of the game, and I believe I am at least paraphrasing if not quoting Red here, "to score more points than the other team".  And that was a guy who coached the #1 All-Time paradigm of defense, Bill Russell, and his college roommate and also great defender K.C. Jones.  So, it's not like we're talking Doug Moe here.  Red understood and appreciated the value of defense.

And yes, so far, Smart is a much better pick than Exum.  Then again, Exum missed an entire year from injury., so he is a year behind Smart in development (and Smart has Brad Stevens, a great developer of talent, to help him).


bob


.

non factor on offense? its not that bad, he could start in the backcourt for the Knicks or Nets and alot of teams right now....Horford loves his game after playing with him in training camp for a very short time.

Bottomline hes only 22 and his offense and overall game will improve.

The ankle injury to start the season is bad news, but not as bad as his start to last season, missing 21 of the first 30 games. He never found a good rythm on offense and at least this year he should come back after missing 3-4 games and have the better looking form on his shot to share with us all. 

He is NOT a black hole on offense. Remember, you gotta look at his stats over TWO years and assume he can slightly improve on his best stats from either season. 

77.7% from the line last year. Get that to around 80% the rest of his career and I'll be happy. 

46.2% on 2 point attempts as a rookie. Get that to 51-53% and I'm happy. 

33.5% from 3 as a rookie. Get that to 35-38% and I'm happy. 

1 less 3 per game, 3 more drives that result in at least 1 bucket and 1 more trip to the line and this is a 12-14ppg player. Not a black hole.

Ram wrote:The ankle injury to start the season is bad news, but not as bad as his start to last season, missing 21 of the first 30 games. He never found a good rythm on offense and at least this year he should come back after missing 3-4 games and have the better looking form on his shot to share with us all. 

He is NOT a black hole on offense. Remember, you gotta look at his stats over TWO years and assume he can slightly improve on his best stats from either season. 

77.7% from the line last year. Get that to around 80% the rest of his career and I'll be happy. 

46.2% on 2 point attempts as a rookie. Get that to 51-53% and I'm happy. 

33.5% from 3 as a rookie. Get that to 35-38% and I'm happy. 

1 less 3 per game, 3 more drives that result in at least 1 bucket and 1 more trip to the line and this is a 12-14ppg player. Not a black hole.

Four big ifs - and sometimes lousy shooters just don't improve.

swish

swish wrote:

Ram wrote:The ankle injury to start the season is bad news, but not as bad as his start to last season, missing 21 of the first 30 games. He never found a good rythm on offense and at least this year he should come back after missing 3-4 games and have the better looking form on his shot to share with us all. 

He is NOT a black hole on offense. Remember, you gotta look at his stats over TWO years and assume he can slightly improve on his best stats from either season. 

77.7% from the line last year. Get that to around 80% the rest of his career and I'll be happy. 

46.2% on 2 point attempts as a rookie. Get that to 51-53% and I'm happy. 

33.5% from 3 as a rookie. Get that to 35-38% and I'm happy. 

1 less 3 per game, 3 more drives that result in at least 1 bucket and 1 more trip to the line and this is a 12-14ppg player. Not a black hole.

 Four big ifs - and sometimes lousy shooters just don't improve.

  swish

Forgive me if I'll do my best to be positive and not a negative Nancy. 

Some people gave up on Rondo after the 2010 Finals (I'm sure you were on of them). I gave him at least until the Stevens era and when someone should be fully recovered from an ACL before I gave up on him. I guess I give guys too much hope and rope. But to be THIS down on Smart after 2 seasons at age 22 is shameful.

[quote="Ram"]

swish wrote:

Ram wrote:The ankle injury to start the season is bad news, but not as bad as his start to last season, missing 21 of the first 30 games. He never found a good rythm on offense and at least this year he should come back after missing 3-4 games and have the better looking form on his shot to share with us all. 

He is NOT a black hole on offense. Remember, you gotta look at his stats over TWO years and assume he can slightly improve on his best stats from either season. 

77.7% from the line last year. Get that to around 80% the rest of his career and I'll be happy. 

46.2% on 2 point attempts as a rookie. Get that to 51-53% and I'm happy. 

33.5% from 3 as a rookie. Get that to 35-38% and I'm happy. 

1 less 3 per game, 3 more drives that result in at least 1 bucket and 1 more trip to the line and this is a 12-14ppg player. Not a black hole.

 Four big ifs - and sometimes lousy shooters just don't improve.

  swish

Forgive me if I'll do my best to be positive and not a negative Nancy. 

Some people gave up on Rondo after the 2010 Finals (I'm sure you were on of them). I gave him at least until the Stevens era and when someone should be fully recovered from an ACL before I gave up on him. I guess I give guys too much hope and rope. But to be THIS down on Smart after 2 seasons at age 22 is shameful.[/quo