Kyrie Irving is worth some extra compensation

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/kyrie-irving-is-worth-some-extra-compensation/ar-AAqUGiJ?li=BBnba9I


Danny Ainge and the Celtics are victims of their own success and sales pitch. They’ve done such a good job of selling the Parishioners of the Parquet on the value their picks and their players that when they bundled some of them together to acquire the elusive Transformative Player there was a reflexive revolt over parting with so many assets.

The Celtics trade for Kyrie Irving was still on hold on Monday after the Cleveland Cavaliers expressed reservations about the condition of Isaiah Thomas’s hip following a physical last Friday. Cleveland is expected to try to coax more compensation out of the Celtics. (Don’t the Cavs kind of owe Ainge in perpetuity for taking Ricky Davis?)
 
There are some Celtics fans who want to use Thomas’s injured hip as an excuse for the Celtics to pull out of the Irving trade. That’s how attached they are to IT; glue-guy Jae Crowder; Ante Zizic, who has never played a single minute in the NBA; and the last of the Brooklyn draft picks. The Celtics have preached the gospel to the masses and now they can’t convince the true believers that part of the homily was exaggerated for effect.

I was overseas when this deal was announced, and I was stunned to read the reaction back home. Instead of hailing Ainge for finally cashing in his assets for a 25-year-old superstar who is one of the most mesmerizing individual offensive talents in the league and has tormented the Celtics in the postseason, Danny the Dealer has been criticized for surrendering too much. That chorus of criticism will only increase if the Celtics have to tack on another piece. Don’t listen to them, Danny. Close this deal with Cleveland. Irving is worth it. He is a bigger, younger, healthier, purer shooting version of Thomas. He already has one of the biggest shots in NBA history on his résumé. His best basketball is ahead of him.

Thomas earned All-NBA honors and a place in the hearts of Boston sports fans with his irrepressible joy, clutch play, and grace in the face of tragedy. But it’s reasonable for Cavaliers doctors to look at Thomas’s hip and question how well or how quickly it will heal. I think if Thomas already had his max contract he would have elected to have surgery on the labrum in his hip, instead of going the rehab route.

It’s understandable why the Celtics would balk at adding to the deal, but if it takes a lottery protected 2019 first-round pick to placate the Cavaliers so be it. Barring a catastrophe, the Celtics sweetener pick would be 25 or later. Don’t let the next R.J. Hunter, Fab Melo, JaJuan Johnson or J.R. Giddens stand in the way of consummating this deal. The Green still have a collection of other move valuable picks in 2018 and 2019.

A late first-round pick for a contending team often is more desirable in theory than in practice. This is the problem for the Celtics. They do such a good job of hard-selling us on the inflated value of their players and picks in theory that when they trade them away Celtics supporters experience separation anxiety. They can’t escape the reality distortion field the team has constructed to see the player for who or what he really is — expendable.

This is the case with Crowder, a darling of advanced analytics who fits perfectly into the coveted 3-and-D category — a wing player who can defend multiple positions and knock down the 3-point shot. He has become as overvalued as the player he was acquired for — Rajon Rondo.

For all the Crowderophiles, he shot 35.2 percent from 3-point range in the playoffs, and his career playoff 3-point percentage is 32.2 percent. In the Eastern Conference Finals, the Cavaliers were plus-77 with Crowder on the court and a plus-23 with him off it. Cleveland shot 54.3 percent with Crowder on the court and 51.5 percent with him off the court.

Crowder is a hard-nosed and versatile defender, but Marcus Smart, who shot better than Crowder from three in the postseason (39.7 percent), can fill that role. The Celtics had 10 three-man combinations last season that logged at least 200 minutes together and had a defensive rating below 100 points allowed per 100 possessions. Smart was a part of eight of those trios, including the top four. Crowder was a part of four, half included Smart.

Crowder’s impact is bigger on paper (or a computer screen) than on the court in the playoffs. His team-friendly contract and eye-popping plus/minus numbers (plus-349 last season) dissemble his true value, which like his role was going to be diminished with Gordon Hayward and rookie Jayson Tatum around.

There is a history of overrating and overvaluing those who don the green. Boston.com conducted a poll in which the majority of respondents did not want to surrender Al Jefferson for Kevin Garnett. Kendrick Perkins practically became a martyr after he was dealt to Oklahoma City in 2011. Rondo was defended like a family member.

The paradox of the Irving trade is that Ainge has done exactly what many have been clamoring for him to do with the Brooklyn picks.

When the Celtics fleeced the Nets the expectation was that they would parlay some of the picks into established All-Star talent to expedite Banner 18. That’s why fans practically booed Celtics owner Wyc Grousbeck out of the building when he announced the selection of Jaylen Brown in 2016.

At the time of the Brooklyn hoops heist, virtually no one expected that Ainge would use all four picks in the draft. Yet, now that he has used the last one to acquire a former No. 1 pick in his prime he is being condemned for doing exactly what most Celtics fans clamored for initially. It’s nonsensical.

Just as the key to the KG trade was not relenting on Rondo, the key to the Irving deal is keeping Brown and Tatum. Ainge’s modus operandi is to bundle multiple assets in a deal to protect the ones he really doesn’t want to surrender. Plus, the contracts of Thomas and Crowder were necessary to make the money match up under the NBA’s byzantine trade rules.

Ainge remains an unsentimental realist. Elite talent wins in the NBA. The underestimated, overachieving version of the Celtics had reached its peak. To go further, the Celtics need more high-end talent, more shot-creators. The Celtics had one of those last year, Thomas. Crowder does not fit into that category. Zizic never will.

This deal is too important for Boston to fail now.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20489627/nba-why-boston-celtics-sweeten-deal-amid-stalemate-cleveland-cavaliers

Chris Gaspar, like so many other Boston pundits unfortunately, is an idiot. It's embarrassing, really, how much more BBIQ Celtic fans have compared to the "experts" the local TV and radio stations have hired to tell us what's what, how much more BBIQ there is on this sports board alone. With the exception of Mannix and Gorman and Max you couldn't pool the rest of them and have enough intellectual wattage to light up a compact fluorescent bulb. Tanguay? Draper? Are you kidding me?! Dress them up in colorful outfits and you couldn't tell them from a court jester.

The word coming out now is that Cleveland found nothing new in the physical.  There is, therefore, no justification for renegotiation UNLESS, in addition to waiving his trade kicker (which he has already done) he signs an extension to the 2 years he has left on his contract.  That's value to Boston and, therefore, worth additional compensation to Cleveland (although you could also argue it had nothing to do with them and everything to do with Kyrie really, really wanting to be a Boston Celtic).

Otherwise I say let the Mistake on the Lake sink into it, let them return to being the Cleveland Cadavers when LeBron leaves after this year and Kyrie leaves the year after.  As the song goes "Time is on my side, yes it is".


bob


.

Hi,
I hope that Danny Ainge isn't moonlighting as a Boston Globe's sports writer under name of Christopher Gaspar.
If my hope holds true I wonder of CG is aware of completely different situations in Boston and Cleveland.
In Cleveland, by all accounts, they're in a desperate mode: all indications are that Lebron's leaving, they refused to renovate Q arena, they don't have any picks and/or current players to start a rebuilt around.
In Boston, it looks like Danny has full support from Wyc, Steve and Co., they have 2 very promising players who have potential to become franchise players, they have 2 (if the trade falls apart) very high picks in the next 2 years, and they know that they don't have to win this season.
Beside all this, Danny, I think, knows that Koby is bluffing.
Based on all this why in the world CG thinks that Danny has to fold???

AK

This article was just published less than an hour ago.

The Celtics and Cavs will likely re-work their blockbuster, as the Cavs perceive Thomas injury differently than the Celtics did.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-am-what-is-next-for-the-celtics-and-cavs/

Steve Bulpett of the Boston Herald on The Vertical Podcast with Chris Mannix (hat tip: Tom Westerholm of MassLive): “My read is actually from the Cleveland side, and what I hear from there is that nothing they’ve found is anything different than what was conveyed to the Cavaliers in the trade discussions, and certainly in the medical information that was passed forward.” – via NBC Sports
Injuries, Trade, Isaiah Thomas, Kyrie Irving, Boston Celtics,

There seems to be quite a difference in Boston's rehab plan and Cleveland's.


Steve Kyler @stevekylerNBA

4 minutes ago

What I was told is Cavs not optimistic Boston's rehab plan is/was the best course and that Thomas likely to have more issues. twitter.com/MartinReese/st…

tjmakz wrote:There seems to be quite a difference in Boston's rehab plan and Cleveland's.


Steve Kyler @stevekylerNBA

4 minutes ago

What I was told is Cavs not optimistic Boston's rehab plan is/was the best course and that Thomas likely to have more issues. twitter.com/MartinReese/st…

So??

Bobh,
As a follow up to your above post I'd like to offer a marvelous example of sports journalism:
http://www.lakersnation.com/nba-news-deadline-implemented-for-cavaliers-celtics-trade-involving-kyrie-irving-isaiah-thomas/2017/08/28/

As my late granma used to say - oy vey...

AK

red16russ11 wrote:

tjmakz wrote:There seems to be quite a difference in Boston's rehab plan and Cleveland's.


Steve Kyler @stevekylerNBA

4 minutes ago

What I was told is Cavs not optimistic Boston's rehab plan is/was the best course and that Thomas likely to have more issues. twitter.com/MartinReese/st…

So??

So? How insightful...

Um, this is kind of an important point, if each team has a very different course of action/rehab plan and if Cleveland thinks IT will have more issues.

I still see no need to add anything more or change the deal. No where have I read that Cleveland is saying the Celtics lied or tried to hide anything about Thomas' hip.

let them pound sand.......maybe they can get a deal form Phoenix or Milwaukee they like better now.

we'll take our chances with It's hip, Crowder, Zizic and the nets pick next season and see the Cavs in the playoffs ONE MORE Year, before the King leaves them barren yet again.

F*%$ them I say!!



but that's just the construction contractor in me talking.....LOL.

tjmakz wrote:

red16russ11 wrote:

tjmakz wrote:There seems to be quite a difference in Boston's rehab plan and Cleveland's.


Steve Kyler @stevekylerNBA

4 minutes ago

What I was told is Cavs not optimistic Boston's rehab plan is/was the best course and that Thomas likely to have more issues. twitter.com/MartinReese/st…

So??

So? How insightful...

Um, this is kind of an important point, if each team has a very different course of action/rehab plan and if Cleveland thinks IT will have more issues.

No, you are just a contrarian who's trying to stir the pot here. The Celtics and Cavs have the same medical info on IT. The course of rehab is NOT the issue. They knew before the trade, they made the trade anyway. This trade will be very difficult emotionally to veto, now that all the feelings have been hurt. Danny should stand his ground. CLE has more to lose here, KI doesn't want to be there. Crowder and IT would be okay coming back to BOS.
This trade is about the BKN pick, not IT. They already have Rose. They want to substitute Brown or Tatum for IT....AFTER the fact. If they wanted Brown or Tatum, they should have stuck to their guns. They want to give us back IT and take Brown or Tatum?????
NO!!

red16russ11 wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

red16russ11 wrote:

tjmakz wrote:There seems to be quite a difference in Boston's rehab plan and Cleveland's.


Steve Kyler @stevekylerNBA

4 minutes ago

What I was told is Cavs not optimistic Boston's rehab plan is/was the best course and that Thomas likely to have more issues. twitter.com/MartinReese/st…

So??

So? How insightful...

Um, this is kind of an important point, if each team has a very different course of action/rehab plan and if Cleveland thinks IT will have more issues.

No, you are just a contrarian who's trying to stir the pot here.  The Celtics and Cavs have the same medical info on IT.  The course of rehab is NOT the issue.  They knew before the trade, they made the trade anyway.  This trade will be very difficult emotionally to veto, now that all the feelings have been hurt.  Danny should stand his ground.  CLE has more to lose here, KI doesn't want to be there.  Crowder and IT would be okay coming back to BOS.
This trade is about the BKN pick, not IT.  They already have Rose.  They want to substitute Brown or Tatum for IT....AFTER the fact.  If they wanted Brown or Tatum, they should have stuck to their guns.  They want to give us back IT and take Brown or Tatum?????
NO!!

I guess you know everything...
You like to live in your own world with blinders on and green shaded glasses.

The rehab and treatment is the issue.

If this implodes, Cleveland is in the same position.
They will still be looking to trade Irving.
How would it affect IT and Crowder knowing they aren't in Boston's long term plans?
What's IT's trade value now?
How do we know Cleveland now wants Brown or Tatum?
They haven't even asked Boston for more compensation.
FYI, don't believe everything you read on the internet.

tjmakz wrote:FYI, don't believe everything you read on the internet.

...and that includes here.

It's all just conjecture* at this point folks.

No one really knows who knew what and when.


---------------
*con·jec·ture

/kənˈjekCHər/

noun: conjecture; plural noun: conjectures

1. an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.

synonyms: speculation, guesswork, surmise, fancy, presumption, assumption, theory, postulation, supposition; More
inference, (an) extrapolation;

tjmakz wrote:

red16russ11 wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

red16russ11 wrote:

tjmakz wrote:There seems to be quite a difference in Boston's rehab plan and Cleveland's.


Steve Kyler @stevekylerNBA

4 minutes ago

What I was told is Cavs not optimistic Boston's rehab plan is/was the best course and that Thomas likely to have more issues. twitter.com/MartinReese/st…

So??

So? How insightful...

Um, this is kind of an important point, if each team has a very different course of action/rehab plan and if Cleveland thinks IT will have more issues.

No, you are just a contrarian who's trying to stir the pot here.  The Celtics and Cavs have the same medical info on IT.  The course of rehab is NOT the issue.  They knew before the trade, they made the trade anyway.  This trade will be very difficult emotionally to veto, now that all the feelings have been hurt.  Danny should stand his ground.  CLE has more to lose here, KI doesn't want to be there.  Crowder and IT would be okay coming back to BOS.
This trade is about the BKN pick, not IT.  They already have Rose.  They want to substitute Brown or Tatum for IT....AFTER the fact.  If they wanted Brown or Tatum, they should have stuck to their guns.  They want to give us back IT and take Brown or Tatum?????
NO!!

I guess you know everything...
You like to live in your own world with blinders on and green shaded glasses.

The rehab and treatment is the issue.

If this implodes, Cleveland is in the same position.
They will still be looking to trade Irving.
How would it affect IT and Crowder knowing they aren't in Boston's long term plans?
What's IT's trade value now?
How do we know Cleveland now wants Brown or Tatum?
They haven't even asked Boston for more compensation.
FYI, don't believe everything you read on the internet.

Says the guy who's posted who started this thread with a link.
Who CARES how this affects CLE?
The BKN pick is the issue here.
Do you really think they'll get anything close to what they got from us from anyone else?

At least be open to other people's ideas!

Yes, I do believe there's other similar deals out there, if IT is significantly hurt.
The Brooklyn pick could be #1 but it could also be #8 or 9.

If IT provides little value to Cleveland, I would not trade Irving for Crowder and a top 10 pick.

Also, I wouldn't want to make my main rival stronger.
I would rather trade Irving to Phoenix or Milwaukee.

Everyone here is entitled to their own opinions. This has been one of the toughest pills to swallow for most Celtic fans. And, on the other hand, Cleveland too is in one tough place. So, I think we should all just sit back and wait for the chips to fall where they may. I see no reason to keep bantering back and forth about something we really do not know.

Bob H is right, most of the local reporters have not got a clue, period. Even Max at times is a bit out there. Grande and Gorman are close to the team, as is Mannix. Even Wojo has been
wrong alot lately about the Celtics.. I live hear, I hear it on every station. Sometimes I have to shut the tv off it is so sickening. Fodder for gossip.

I'm done going back and forth. The last thing I want to do is offend anyone with a post or a thought that I have See you all when this fiasco is over. I love IT, I feel so bad for that kid right now.

Sirius XM NBA: “I think they still follow up on the deal, they did a good job.”-Fmr Cavs GM David Griffin on value Cavs acquired from Celtics other than IT – via Twitter SiriusXMNBA

tjmakz wrote:

red16russ11 wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

red16russ11 wrote:

tjmakz wrote:There seems to be quite a difference in Boston's rehab plan and Cleveland's.


Steve Kyler @stevekylerNBA

4 minutes ago

What I was told is Cavs not optimistic Boston's rehab plan is/was the best course and that Thomas likely to have more issues. twitter.com/MartinReese/st…

So??

So? How insightful...

Um, this is kind of an important point, if each team has a very different course of action/rehab plan and if Cleveland thinks IT will have more issues.

No, you are just a contrarian who's trying to stir the pot here.  The Celtics and Cavs have the same medical info on IT.  The course of rehab is NOT the issue.  They knew before the trade, they made the trade anyway.  This trade will be very difficult emotionally to veto, now that all the feelings have been hurt.  Danny should stand his ground.  CLE has more to lose here, KI doesn't want to be there.  Crowder and IT would be okay coming back to BOS.
This trade is about the BKN pick, not IT.  They already have Rose.  They want to substitute Brown or Tatum for IT....AFTER the fact.  If they wanted Brown or Tatum, they should have stuck to their guns.  They want to give us back IT and take Brown or Tatum?????
NO!!

I guess you know everything...
You like to live in your own world with blinders on and green shaded glasses.

The rehab and treatment is the issue.

If this implodes, Cleveland is in the same position.
They will still be looking to trade Irving.
How would it affect IT and Crowder knowing they aren't in Boston's long term plans?
What's IT's trade value now?
How do we know Cleveland now wants Brown or Tatum?
They haven't even asked Boston for more compensation.
FYI, don't believe everything you read on the internet.

TJ,

1.  "If this implodes, Cleveland is in the same position.
They will still be looking to trade Irving."

I disagree, they are not in the same position.  They want to get this done by training camp, which is 1 month away, and they lost a week to do it.  Furthermore, everybody now knows the limit of what they can get for Irving:  a damaged IT, a solid but not all-star Jae Crowder, a 20-year old rookie and a draft pick.  Next time around, any offer they receive will be worse than this one.


2.  How would it affect IT and Crowder knowing they aren't in Boston's long term plans?

Not more than a short-term bit.  Some hard feelings?  Sure, but they'll get over it, just as every player gets over being shopped, being traded, being undervalued at contract negotiation time.  They will play hard out of pride.  They will play hard to increase their stature.  At worst, they will play hard to increase their trade value so they can get out of Boston but lastly, and most importantly, they will play hard for their teammates and for the fans who have been and will continue cheering them.


3.  What's IT's trade value now?

Short-term not as much.  Long-term probably the same since this is not perceived as a chronic, structural or career-limiting injury, like knee surgery might be or the way Kobe's Achilles tears would have been perceived had it happen 10 years sooner in his career and not in the final years of a long career where everybody knew he was going nowhere.  Who cares?  The only reason why he was offered up in trade is, in Celtics management's opinion, for a superior point guard.  The same would happen again if Steph Curry or Anthony Davis or such other quality player became available.  Unless we're talking about an elite player his trade value is irrelevant.  If he is damaged goods then the Celtics can re-sign him for cheap.  If isn't damaged goods then he can be traded for quality or re-signed and retained.  If his hard feelings are so bad he just wants out of Boston then that's that.  His immediate trade value matters only in immediate, impending trades.  Potential trades in the undefined future are incalculable due to changes in his condition, changes in other teams' positions as the season progresses, etc.


4.  How do we know Cleveland now wants Brown or Tatum?

They wanted them from the beginning, why wouldn't they want them now?  Is there any reason to think they've soured on either of those players?


5.  They haven't even asked Boston for more compensation.

Not that we are aware of and, as you have correctly pointed out, we don't know everything that has or is being discussed.  They also haven't signed off on the deal either.  It is reasonable to assume that the delay in doing so is to assess whether the deal is still of sufficient value to them, and if not then to ask for more compensation. I would be surprised if it were not part of their decision process.


6.  FYI, don't believe everything you read on the internet.

This board, this thread, your post and mine, are on the internet.



bob



.

I'm not Ainge but for just this week I wish I was. I add NOTHING extra to the trade as it stands. If Cle can talk Kryie into signing a 2 year extension then I'll throw in the Celtics 2019 pick, lottery protected, a 3 year extension and they get their choice of ours, Mem, or LAC pick. I think that it is fairly obvious that neither IT or Crowder are in our longterm plans regardless. IT because Ainge will not tie up near max money and years on a 5'9" 30 something with a bad hip. Crowder isn't because we have 2 high lottery picks and an all star free agent who plays his position, each of with has a higher ceiling and a year under their belt in Brad's system (2 for JB). The long term doom and gloom about the Celts having to take them back is ridiculous to me. This upcoming season is not title time in Boston so what is the killer about them coming back? In 2018-19 I fully expected them both to be gone anyway. Thomas due to age, injury(?), and salary demands, Crowder due to redundancy and better talent ahead of him.

Yes I can see where more compensation makes sense.

Throw in a pile of cow dung

Dboss

willjr wrote:I'm not Ainge but for just this week I wish I was. I add NOTHING extra to the trade as it stands. If Cle can talk Kryie into signing a 2 year extension then I'll throw in the Celtics 2019 pick, lottery protected, a 3 year extension and they get their choice of ours, Mem, or LAC pick. I think that it is fairly obvious that neither IT or Crowder are in our longterm plans regardless. IT because Ainge will not tie up near max money and years on a 5'9" 30 something with a bad hip. Crowder isn't because we have 2 high lottery picks and an all star free agent who plays his position, each of with has a higher ceiling and a year under their belt in Brad's system (2 for JB). The long term doom and gloom about the Celts having to take them back is ridiculous to me. This upcoming season is not title time in Boston so what is the killer about them coming back? In 2018-19 I fully expected them both to be gone anyway. Thomas due to age, injury(?), and salary demands, Crowder due to redundancy and better talent ahead of him.

Great post. 100% agree!!

Nothing else.  Period.

I sold you a car and in process disclosed to you that it will need new tires in a few months.  You examined the tires, signed the title and the car was yours.  

THEN you took it to your mechanic and he said, based on his preferences he suggests you replace the tires sooner.  At that point, you are the owner of the car and way you treat your tires is up to you - but I in no way am giving you any additional compensation.  

The fact that Cleveland medical staff has a different course of action is of no concern in evaluating the fairness of the trade. That is an institutional decision after that fact.

mrkleen09 wrote:Nothing else.  Period.

I sold you a car and in process disclosed to you that it will need new tires in a few months.  You examined the tires, signed the title and the car was yours.  

THEN you took it to your mechanic and he said, based on his preferences he suggests you replace the tires sooner.  At that point, you are the owner of the car and way you treat your tires is up to you - but I in no way am giving you any additional compensation.  

The fact that Cleveland medical staff has a different course of action is of no concern in evaluating the fairness of the trade.  That is an institutional decision after that fact.

kleen,

This is not an accurate comparison.
The trade is not complete until AFTER a complete examination.
IT failed the exam.
Cleveland could accept the results, ask for additional compensation or void the trade.
At this point we don't know what Cleveland will do.

I didnt see that IT failed the exam, all I have read is that the Cavs think his recovery will take longer than they were comfortable with.

If he did fail the exam and is damaged goods, that is different. But if they simply have a different plan of action on how to handle injury X vs the Celtics, that is not failing the exam.