POST GAME TORONTO - HOME

A good win against a good team that, very importantly, was mostly healthy.  A solid benchmark, I think.

Horford has been unreal.  It started back in the 2nd half of last season, as he finally figured out how to fit into Brad's system, and has continued on this year.  Last night he matched up against Serge Ibaka and dominated him.  Thanks to last night's 8-9 his season-to-date shooting is 55.7% and his 3pt fg% is 48.7%.  Only 14 games, but damn!  "Average Al"?  Who's the moron who called him that?  

Tatum coming up big.  Clutch buckets.  How many times have we seen rookies defer, perhaps wisely so, to veterans when the clock is winding down and you need points and let them take the big shot.  I can count 3 buckets in the last 2 games, just off the top of my head, where Jayson Tatum either hit a clutch jump shot or drove to the rim when we needed points and the clock was about to go off.  You cannot teach that, you either want the ball or you don't.  Either you are comfortable with being the goat (not G.O.A.T) because you missed the shot.  If you're not comfortable with that, then make the pass, set the pick.  If you are, then say "pass me the damn ball and set a pick for me".  Marcus Morris, a solid veteran player is no longer on any minute restriction and Tatum is starting ahead of him.  When we were hanging on by a thread Marcus Morris was on the floor but so was Jayson Tatum.  He made a dumb rookie mistake that could have, but didn't cost us the game but I'd bet real money that doesn't happen again.  The kid's a 19 year old rook, just 14 games into his career, and he wants the ball.  I don't care about Ingram or Ball or Fultz, they aren't Celtics.  Jayson Tatum is and that's going to pay off HUGE over the coming seasons.  Forget about him going 6-15 (which is still quite acceptable) and 1-4 from 3 last night, after 3 quarters he was 3-11.  Remember that in the 4th quarter, crunch time, he went 3-4, two driving layups through traffic and a 20'er with a man on him, and grabbed 3 rebounds.  We scored 18 points in the 4th quarter and he had 6 of them.  We grabbed 12 rebounds in the 4th quarter and he had 3 of them.  It's already starting.

DeMar DeRozan got his season average 24 points but he need to go 8-22 to get them.  Another big defensive assignment for Jaylen.  He fell for a bunch of DR's upfakes, but that's why he's so tough.  With all due respect to Even Turner DeMar DeRozan is the King of the Mid-Range Game.  Like Kobe he knows how to get to his spot and when he gets there he is almost impossible to stop.  He'll up fake you and get to the line (He is #1 in the league in ftas.  He's taking 9.2ftas/game this year.  To put that into perspective, do you remember how IT used to live at the line last year?  He still only averaged 8.5ftas/game while DR is averaging 9.2.  For his career he's only averaged 6.3, so a BIG increase this year).  A great final NON-fouling defense on DR by JB at the end.  On offense Brown was 8-14.  A great all-round game by Jaylen too.

Baynes with brute defense on Valanciunas.  I remember years not to far in the past where V owned us on the glass and in the paint.  Not last night.  Not a big scoring night for him but 8 boards in 20 minutes.  When he was on the Spurs Pop kept him out of practice sometimes because he was afraid Baynes would hurt someone.  I'm sure glad he's our beast now.




Marcus Smart with his usual 3-10 night,  , but 9 assists and only 2 TOs on a night without Kyrie, and who ran in from the outside into the scrum under the basket and got that final rebound off the DR miss?  Our little pitbull, Marcus Smart.  Only his shooting, that's the only weakness in his game.  Every other part of it, both tangible and quantifiable as well as intangible and un-quantifiable, is All-League.

Theis with 8 rebounds and 2 blocks in just 17 minutes.  Love this guy.  Never takes an ill-advised shot, rarely blows a defensive assignment (although there is a "newbie" aspect to him.  He's still getting accustomed to the speed and power of the NBA and what the refs will and will not allow) and rolls to the rim as well as anybody on the team.   

Rozier is not a good shooter.  He's not as bad as Smart, not many are, but he isn't good.  He is, however, a gritty defender and phenomenal rebounder for his size.  There were a few sequences last night that were all TRo.  His next step is to become Avery Bradley with his shooting.  He's pretty close to AB with his defense and is already who AB was with us last year in rebounding.  Worthy of note, this year on Detroit Bradley is averaging 3.2 rebounds/game.  This is in line with his career rebounding average, last year was an aberration.

The hero of the Hornet game, Shane Larkin, was 0-6.  

How did we win this game without Irving, getting outshot 46.4% vs 40.2% overall and 41.7% from 3 vs 38.5% and with them getting 8 blocks vs only 2 (both by Theis) for us?  For one thing we outrebounded them by 10 boards, 46-36.  That's a big margin.  An even bigger winning margin?  We took 18 more fgas than them, 87-69.  69 fgas for them is terrible pace.

We've held our opponents to under 100 points in 11 out of 12 games and, in 5 of those games, we held them to under 90 points.  That is hellaciously good defense in a league that currently favors the offense.  Last night, in the 4th quarter, Toronto went 5-18, 27.8%.  It is truly amazing how we went from being one of the worst rebounding teams in the league last year to being one of the best.

http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400974939



























This interview is PRE-game.






Bill Doyle @BillDoyle15

yesterday

Celtics' 12-game win streak is their longest since they won 14 in a row from Nov. 11-Dec. 22, 2010.
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bob



.

I think i will put the win over the Raptors in the signature win column.

The Celtics have struggled to beat the Raptors over the past few season. They seem to win all the close games. Our records against them over the past 15 games including yesterdays game is 5-10.

dboss

beat,
Yes I saw that rebound just as I see the other good things that he does. Are you seeing the multiple consecutive possessions where he turns the ball over either by missing a poor shot attempt, getting swallowed up by the D and then turning it over? or when he makes a bad pass? Most of his turnovers don't get recorded as such but the other team gets the ball and often scores. His poor play is often the reason we lose large leads. And then he does something spectacular and everybody forgets those other plays. I invite everyone to not watch the next game in a vacuum. Pay attention to how he handles every possession. Make note when you groan. The good things are always much more memorable. All I am really asking for is that he be held accountable for his total game and not just that which is praiseworthy. When Marcus stops trying to do too much, especially on the scoring end of things, I'll be happier with his play. Keep an open mind and watch his game. See if you don't agree that perhaps he tries to do too much. Let me know. I'll try to be more specific with my comments over the next few games. He's due for a big game soon but even then. I think that you will see what I mean if you are looking for it.

mulcogiseng wrote: beat,
Yes I saw that rebound just as I see the other good things that he does. Are you seeing the multiple consecutive possessions where he turns the ball over either by missing a poor shot attempt, getting swallowed up by the D and then turning it over? or when he makes a bad pass? Most of his turnovers don't get recorded as such but the other team gets the ball and often scores. His poor play is often the reason we lose large leads. And then he does something spectacular and everybody forgets those other plays. I invite everyone to not watch the next game in a vacuum. Pay attention to how he handles every possession. Make note when you groan. The good things are always much more memorable. All I am really asking for is that he be held accountable for his total game and not just that which is praiseworthy. When Marcus stops trying to do too much, especially on the scoring end of things, I'll be happier with his play. Keep an open mind and watch his game. See if you don't agree that perhaps he tries to do too much. Let me know. I'll try to be more specific with my comments over the next few games. He's due for a big game soon but even then. I think that you will see what I mean if you are looking for it.

sure he makes mistakes tries too much (agree) BUT I didn't see consecutive screw ups and I rewatched the game multiple times solely focusing on him.  
and some of those so called mistakes are when he ends up with the ball in his hands with just a couple seconds on the shot clock ( and some of those he held it too long) ...but that said making the right play can't be hurried either, case in point the lob pass into Horford late for an easy deuce. Patience was needed for Horford to get into the position.

Sort of an enigma for sure but i'd wager there are a LOT of teams would love to have him as a starter......or the first man off the bench for a backcourt position. Perhaps as many as 29 of them !!

And to add I'll always look for the best in someone over the mistakes they made (make)  Smart adds a lot more than he takes away from us IMHO. He was tops on our team in that +- thingy too at +11 !!  Big Al and Tatum were only a +2 and +4 in comparison.  (Seems Smarts errors are blown up a lot more on here than others ) to me If he isn't looking to score (at least some of the time) he is not gonna be much of a factor.

I'll take the Smart we have, hope he gets a bit better but he is what he is.

beat

beat wrote:
sure he makes mistakes tries too much (agree) BUT I didn't see consecutive screw ups and I rewatched the game multiple times solely focusing on him.  
and some of those so called mistakes are when he ends up with the ball in his hands with just a couple seconds on the shot clock ( and some of those he held it too long) ...but that said making the right play can't be hurried either, case in point the lob pass into Horford late for an easy deuce. Patience was needed for Horford to get into the position.

Sort of an enigma for sure but i'd wager there are a LOT of teams would love to have him as a starter......or the first man off the bench for a backcourt position. Perhaps as many as 29 of them !!

And to add I'll always look for the best in someone over the mistakes they made (make)  Smart adds a lot more than he takes away from us IMHO. He was tops on our team in that +- thingy too at +11 !!  Big ll and Tatum were only a +2 and +4 in comparison.  (Seems Smarts errors are blown up a lot more on here than others ) to me If he isn't looking to score (at least some of the time) he is not gonna be much of a factor.

I'll take the Smart we have, hope he gets a bit better but he is what he is.

beat

+1

Smart has grown on me over time. His shooting still stinks, but he has become a much better point guard than I ever thought he could. He is a guy who can create for others on the offensive end and the rest of his game ; defense , rebounding, winning the 50-50 situations , is superb. He`s not a perfect player by any means, but I think he`s extremely valuable.

If they were ever to consider a missed shot,not rebounded by the offense, as a turn over - an entirely different offensive picture might develop for some players.

swish

swish wrote:If they were ever to consider a missed shot,not rebounded by the offense, as a turn over - an entirely different offensive picture might develop for some players.

 swish

Swish - that is utterly ridiculous. Sorry.

Any shot has between 25% and 30% chance of being rebounded by you or your teammates. A turnover has 0% chance, or better put has 100% chance of ending up in your opponent's hands.

By any measure 75% < 100%.

In addition, as anyone who has played the game will tell you - in situations where you are unable to pass, it is ALWAYS better to throw up a shot and give your teammates a chance to rebound it.

I agree this is a signature win. I believe all future wins will count as such until a game is finally lost. These win streaks seem very difficult to maintain. If Irving doesn't play at Brooklyn, that could definitely be another big win.

Only so many players make it into the NBA. Every team from that angle becomes a stacked roster.

We are ice cold at times. I see multiple requests for a lid to be removed from the hoop.

Yet the defense continues to shine. That keeps us in every game. We only then need to score 100, 25 a quarter to win.

Irving is the last straw however for injuries.

Why are we for real?

Horford has made a leap. That is mind blowing. A guy like that should be set in his ways and just show up and do his thing. I don't think he has always been this good. One year we played Atlanta in the playoffs and he looked mediocre. There must be a reason why so many have called him "Average Al."

I think he is a borderline superstar playing like this. He is reminding me of Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett.

We have enough guys confident to produce. Our worst shooter and best defender leaves it all on the court. I doubt Smart doesn't realize his shot is off. He is putting up bad stats because someone has to shoot at some point. Someone has to fight back and compete.

But we also have Tatum and Brown who can rack up points. Rozier and Morris are not afraid.

I don't expect points from Semi, but he might be the only player not able to charge at the opponent's defense. Baynes goes for his points. Theis will score within team play. Shane Larkin is yet another option to throw out there for pinch hitting for jump shots and getting us at least a miminum of points.

Thus if our defense is for real, there is nothing to worry about. It's annoying watching a lot of balls clank. But Horford is on another plane this year. Kyrie should be back soon.

People claim point differential as a good indicator. We currently excel at that, but it's the defense that's driven the 2017-18 Celtics letting Golden State know we are not scared.

Gyso.............I will add nothing to this post because I am too busy laughing. You can always bring a smile to my face.

PS...I love Jayen!!

swish wrote:If they were ever to consider a missed shot,not rebounded by the offense, as a turn over - an entirely different offensive picture might develop for some players.

 swish

so how will one ever score? Think your reaching a little out of the park on this one swish.

One afraid of a turnover.......... might never shoot.

We still have players passing up good looks too often. And that's not on Smart.

beat

"Horford has made a leap. That is mind blowing. A guy like that should be set in his ways and just show up and do his thing. I don't think he has always been this good. One year we played Atlanta in the playoffs and he looked mediocre. There must be a reason why so many have called him "Average Al.""

I believe the main reason for Al's more impressive play this year is the fact that he's playing at his more natural position, power forward. It's as if he's been unshackled from going against usually bigger opponents when he played center last year. Albeit, he took a lot of 3 pt. shots as a center last year to spread the floor, but playing power forward gives him even more court space to start from, rather than typically being in the paint from the center position.

As for calling him "Average Al", I prefer to call him "Steady Al" - steady and reliable, the glue that gives cohesion to the team. Up to now, he's playing at an All-Star level and All-Stars are above the average player. That's just my opinion.

Sandpd wrote:"Horford has made a leap. That is mind blowing. A guy like that should be set in his ways and just show up and do his thing. I don't think he has always been this good. One year we played Atlanta in the playoffs and he looked mediocre. There must be a reason why so many have called him "Average Al.""

I believe the main reason for Al's more impressive play this year is the fact that he's playing at his more natural position, power forward. It's as if he's been unshackled from going against usually bigger opponents when he played center last year. Albeit, he took a lot of 3 pt. shots as a center last year to spread the floor, but playing power forward gives him even more court space to start from, rather than typically being in the paint from the center position.

As for calling him "Average Al", I prefer to call him "Steady Al" - steady and reliable, the glue that gives cohesion to the team. Up to now, he's playing at an All-Star level and All-Stars are above the average player. That's just my opinion.

Although the 3 pointer wasn't a mainstay of the 80's and 90's I do remember later in his HOF career Kevin McHale extended his shot out to the line and was somewhat effective............so big guys on the C's can add to their games even after the age of 30 !! He took a total of 20 his first 9 years in the league then took 106 his next 2.

beat

beat wrote:

Sandpd wrote:"Horford has made a leap. That is mind blowing. A guy like that should be set in his ways and just show up and do his thing. I don't think he has always been this good. One year we played Atlanta in the playoffs and he looked mediocre. There must be a reason why so many have called him "Average Al.""

I believe the main reason for Al's more impressive play this year is the fact that he's playing at his more natural position, power forward. It's as if he's been unshackled from going against usually bigger opponents when he played center last year. Albeit, he took a lot of 3 pt. shots as a center last year to spread the floor, but playing power forward gives him even more court space to start from, rather than typically being in the paint from the center position.

As for calling him "Average Al", I prefer to call him "Steady Al" - steady and reliable, the glue that gives cohesion to the team. Up to now, he's playing at an All-Star level and All-Stars are above the average player. That's just my opinion.

Although the 3 pointer wasn't a mainstay of the 80's and 90's I do remember later in his HOF career Kevin McHale extended his shot out to the line and was somewhat effective............so big guys on the C's can add to their games even after the age of 30 !! He took a total of 20 his first 9 years in the league then took 106 his next 2.

beat

Hi Beat,

I was trying to respond to Phi Presley's post, but messed up by not clicking on the "Quote" option and instead just pasted an excerpt of his. Anyway, I agree with your observation of McHale. He also had that turnaround jumper in and around the paint that was unstoppable. Horford seems to be dead-on, hitting those 3's from the top of the arc and in the corners.

It's been fun watching the C's. Like last year, they have been overachievers, but this year they are overachieving with a higher level of players who are bigger, longer, stronger, and more talented. The C's have pretty much owned the paint due not only to their bigger "Bigs", but due to their bigger lineup overall. As we all know, IT is only 5'8" at best and as great a defender as Avery is, he is only 6'2", which is a disadvantage when the he'd be taking on the other team's "off guard" who would usually be 6'5" or taller. Not that last year's players weren't aggressive, this year's roster has players who have that aggression but who can back it up with more muscle and heft and with an added edge. No more getting out-muscled and pushed around by the other teams. Bring on Draymond Green!

Time will tell when the young tyros hit that dreaded "Wall", probably sometime in mid January. I just hope that they find that second wind afterwards. Young legs should be able to recover quickly - then they'll be off and running to the post-season. Who knows, do you believe in miracles? Anything can happen.

Celts outrebounded the Raptors 46 to 36.

Celts now 4th in rebounds per game at 47.5 rpg and 2nd in rebounding differential with a +5.5 average.

fierce wrote:Celts outrebounded the Raptors 46 to 36.

Celts now 4th in rebounds per game at 47.5 rpg and 2nd in rebounding differential with a +5.5 average.

What a difference a year makes----and bigger , stronger guys

fierce wrote:Celts outrebounded the Raptors 46 to 36.

Celts now 4th in rebounds per game at 47.5 rpg and 2nd in rebounding differential with a +5.5 average.

What a difference a year makes----and bigger , stronger guys

jrleftfoot wrote:

fierce wrote:Celts outrebounded the Raptors 46 to 36.

Celts now 4th in rebounds per game at 47.5 rpg and 2nd in rebounding differential with a +5.5 average.

What a difference a year makes----and bigger , stronger guys

True.

Last season the Celts lost 3 out of 4 to the Raps because the Celts always got beat on the boards.

Twenty years ago Aretha Franklin's producer and Atlantic Records VP Jerry Wexler told me that the Beatles wrote Let It Be for her, but she wouldn't sing it. Jerry begged her to do the song, knowing it would be a big hit, but she wouldn't. Eventually the Beatles did it and years later, to Jerry's Chagrin she finally did it.

Maybe Horford is much more comfortable with this team and the fact that Brad has made him a focal point, with the ball going thru his hands on a lot of possessions. This is the Al of Hawk days. I think he is getting the ball more and has the green light to do what he wants. Kyrie has a lot to do with this. I hate to say it, but, distribution of the ball was not exactly IT's strong suit. He took a lot of shots, now they are spread around more.

This is not a knock of IT, he did was the team needed at the time. This team is completely different.

Maybe Horford is much more comfortable with this team and the fact that Brad has made him a focal point, with the ball going thru his hands on a lot of possessions. This is the Al of Hawk days. I think he is getting the ball more and has the green light to do what he wants. Kyrie has a lot to do with this. I hate to say it, but, distribution of the ball was not exactly IT's strong suit. He took a lot of shots, now they are spread around more.

This is not a knock of IT, he did was the team needed at the time. This team is completely different.

And what a splendid team it is.

I think the biggest difference in Horford with Boston is that the Hawks did not run their offense through him.

He expanded his game to include the 3 point shot his last year in Atlanta.  

Danny knew Al could stretch the floor, play both PF and center and be a good defender.  He has always been a player that has a full  bag of basketball skills.

Dboss

RosalieTCeltics wrote:Maybe Horford is much more comfortable with this team and the fact that Brad has made him a focal point, with the ball going thru his hands on a lot of possessions.  This is the Al of Hawk days.  I think he is getting the ball more and has the green light to do what he wants. Kyrie has a lot to do with this.  I hate to say it, but, distribution of the ball was not exactly IT's strong suit. He took a lot of shots, now they are spread around more.  

This is not a knock of IT, he did was the team needed at the time. This team is completely different.

You're right, IT is a ball dominant and volume shooting type player, but he did what he had to do for/with that team. He was essentially the only "go to" player they had who could create his own offense. Kyrie hasn't had to play that way too often with this team as there are more options (upgrade in personnel) for him to distribute the ball to, e.g., Tatum and the ever progressing Brown. Not to neglect the fact that the C's are also getting more production from the 5 spot, whomever that may be. Consequently, opposing teams can't put all their attention on just 1 or 2 players.

But I do think that the offense ran through Horford last year too, despite the popular belief that it ran through IT. He may had run the offense and scored a lot of points, but Al was the counterpoint or IT's counterpart, and when Al had a "touch," the offense balanced out. Also, Al and IT had good success with the P&R. Al was and is the glue that keeps everything cohesive and together, offensively and defensively.

In Brad's system, I think anyone and everyone is given the green light - case in point, Smart's propensity to keep on shooting when he can't hit the broad side of a barn. Yet, I never saw or heard about Brad telling him not to shoot, even though we're probably yelling, "No, Marcus, no, don't shoot!" as we squirm in our seats, anxiously knowing that Smart is a streak shooter.

Horford looks faster. Having Baynes must be the difference. Amir could barely walk. Zeller and Olynyk were too mediocre to get big minutes at center.

Maybe 2008 KG was great because he had Perk to do all the dirty work. This is why I think we need one more big to backup Baynes. Al can handle center, but he's just gonna get worn down.

Before the trade one debate was whether Isaiah was worth brink's money. I would have given him one more year, but I needed to see him evolve as an old-school point guard. He might have had one great game with 15 assists and one turnover. I forget exactly. He needed to up his game to eight to ten assists to compensate for his effect on team defense.

Irving shows that Isaiah's offense can be close to replaced and more balanced.

Irving is simply taller as someone wrote above. He is a lot taller.

I agree with nearly everything people wrote above. The rebounding is good to great. The defense is great. The chemistry is off the charts.

I could see Brown and Tatum increasing their offense. Irving coming back is going to be a huge lift.

Irving and Horford give us two upper echelon all-stars. I mean this year's Horford so far with the last playoffs maybe. Smart is hall-of-fame for defense. A guy like Shane Larkin isn't an RJ Hunter or James Young scrub. He can fill the third string pg role.

We all know what's going on. Every single question mark has been answered in the positive unless we want to discuss Yabusele or harp on missing Gordon Hayward.