The Anthony Davis-Celtics speculation isn't going away

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25472024/the-anthony-davis-celtics-speculation-going-away

My Note:  Yes another AD thread


BOSTON -- For more than a year now, the future of Anthony Davis has been a nonstop topic of discussion in NBA circles. It doesn't matter that Davis, even now, can't elect to become an unrestricted free agent for the first time in his career until July 2020. It also doesn't matter that his team, the New Orleans Pelicans, made it to the Western Conference semifinals for the first time in a decade last season -- and, if their players can remain healthy, appear to have the talent to make it at least that far this time around.

Why? Because the NBA is a league that thrives on, and is built around, both the play of its stars on the court and the pursuit of them off it. It's why the league's championships have been dominated by a handful of names over the course of its history and why the subject of the futures of players such as Davis, Kevin Durant and Kawhi Leonard is an endless conversation starter.

When Davis and the Pelicans face the Celtics on Monday at TD Garden, the Celtics -- and their fans -- will get a chance to see the player this franchise would do anything to get its hands on.

"He treats the rest of us as if we're playing on a little rim at this point," Kyrie Irving said recently, laughing.

It takes seeing Davis in action only once to understand why the Celtics, along with so many other teams, would love to acquire him. In a league full of special talents, Davis is arguably the most singular among them. A 10-inch growth spurt late in high school took him from a point guard to a center, transforming him into a 7-footer who can dribble, pass and shoot like a guard but has the athleticism and length to guard anyone on the court.

Irving's analogy isn't far off. Watching Davis play, he at times can look like a pterodactyl with legs, a talent seemingly capable of doing anything he wants -- to the point that, in the previous meeting with the Celtics two weeks ago in New Orleans, Davis had 27 points, 16 rebounds, 5 assists, 3 steals and 3 blocks, and Al Horford was quite justifiably credited for making Davis' life difficult all night.

"Usually when I throw stuff to him or throw lobs, I try to make it as outrageous as possible to show off his athletic ability," Pelicans guard Jrue Holiday said. "He catches everything. I really just try to make a highlight.

"Everything he does, man, it is amazing. But at this point, it's nothing new."

Holiday was then asked by a reporter whether he had ever seen anyone like Davis before. In response, he made a face and arched an eyebrow.

"Have you?" he asked.
Then he answered his own question.

"I mean, no," he said. "That's why I'm playing with him. That's why I stayed."

Simply put, Davis is a generational talent, one who just so happens to be in the mold of Kevin Garnett, the man whose arrival via trade 11 years ago ushered in the last golden age of Celtics basketball and whose departure trade five years ago laid the groundwork for the rebuild Boston has undertaken since.

That process has undeniably been a massive success. Thanks in large part to the Nets trade that netted the Celtics control of four of Brooklyn's first-round picks, Boston has landed difference-makers in all three ways a team can: free agency (Horford and Gordon Hayward), trade (Irving) and the draft (Jayson Tatumand Jaylen Brown). Meanwhile, in the summer Garnett and Paul Pierce were sent to Brooklyn, Celtics president of basketball operations Danny Ainge made an inspired choice by luring Brad Stevens away from Butler University to replace Doc Rivers as coach when Rivers left for the LA Clippers.

Those moves have put Boston in better position than any other team to make a move for Davis, assuming he becomes available -- though because of an obscure contract quirk, the Celtics couldn't trade for Davis this season while also holding onto Irving. The Celtics could have four first-round picks in next year's draft. They have Brown to feature as the centerpiece of a trade -- not to mention Tatum, though the Celtics would be loath to include him in any deal. They have Marcus Smart, whose four-year, $52 million deal signed this summer was instantly seen as a valuable trade chip moving forward. They could potentially add Terry Rozier to such a deal in a sign-and-trade, though the mechanics of such a move would be far more complicated.
Those are all key contributors to a team that entered the season, at a minimum, as a co-favorite to make it out of the East and to the NBA Finals for the first time in almost a decade. But despite all that, the Celtics seem one piece short of claiming their 18th championship banner.
To win at the highest levels of this sport, top-end talent is all but certainly required. Since the start of the 1979-80 NBA season, there have been 39 championships claimed by the league's teams. Of those 39, 38 have been won by teams led by the following players: Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Julius Erving, Isiah Thomas, Michael Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, Dwyane Wade, Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Dirk Nowitzki, Stephen Curry and Kevin Durant.

The other title -- the one claimed by the 2004 Detroit Pistons -- technically proves that there is another path to take. But that team featured a starting lineup of five players (Chauncey Billups, Richard Hamilton, Tayshaun Prince, Rasheed Wallace and Ben Wallace) who all were, at minimum, borderline All-Star talents who fit perfectly with one another.

There's a reason such a formula has come together in such a way only once in the past 40 years. It might be even harder to execute successfully than finding that one supreme talent necessary to win a title.

For all of Boston's talent and the expectations put upon it entering this season, no one on this roster can quite be put into the "supreme talent" category. It takes only one look at the competition across the East to see the challenge that lies before the Celtics. To the north, the Toronto Raptors have Kawhi Leonard. To the south, the Philadelphia 76ers have Joel Embiid. To the west, the Milwaukee Bucks have Giannis Antetokounmpo.
All three of them are among the 10 best players in the league, and they fall into the phylum of players good enough to take a franchise where it needs to go. In a playoff series against any of those teams, as currently constructed, the Celtics wouldn't have an argument for the best player on the court, which is typically the top indicator of which team will win a given matchup.

Adding Davis would change everything. That is why Boston -- and the vast majority of the league -- is thrilled any time it sees the Pelicans lose a game. Each loss adds fuel to the fire that is the potential for Davis to reject a super-max contract extension offer from New Orleans.
If that happens, the Pelicans will have only one logical option: to trade Davis before he leaves in free agency. The same process has played out with several others, including Leonard, Jimmy Butler, DeMarcus Cousins and Paul George. None of them, though, would inspire the kind of bidding war an available Davis would.

"That's what you guys do," Pelicans coach Alvin Gentry said of the trade speculation. "You guys talk about it. He's here. He's playing on our team. We're trying to win games. That's the only thing that matters right now.  "It's not anything that I'm going to have a say-so in or anything else, so we don't bother with it. We worry about now. We worry about winning games and putting everybody in the best position to win games."

While New Orleans is trying to win enough to convince Davis to stay, the rest of the league is ruminating about what it would take to pry Davis away. Such speculation is happening constantly now, but executives around the league see virtually no chance that Davis is traded before the Pelicans can offer him that super-max extension in July. New Orleans, as it should, will do everything it can to keep Davis -- and will move on from him only if it absolutely has to.

Boston won't be alone in pursuing him, though. Davis is now represented by Rich Paul and Klutch Sports -- the same agent and agency that rep James. Although the Los Angeles Lakers have resisted calls to trade their young players previously, it is hard to see them passing on an opportunity to put Davis alongside James.

Meanwhile, the Raptors' landing Leonard this summer -- with no assurances that he will re-sign -- offers a window into the mindset of teams when the opportunity to get such a talent presents itself. In short: get the player. Expect other, unexpected teams to get into the mix if Davis is truly available, instead of it being a theoretical possibility as it is today.

In Boston, just the uncertainty of Davis' future has created endless discussion about the permutations of a possible Davis deal, to the point that Celtics fans know them all by heart. But Ainge -- the man ultimately tasked with pulling off such a deal, should the opportunity arise -- dismissed the speculation as something that could potentially impact his team.

"I don't think that that is a distraction right now," he said. "That may cross guys' minds, but I usually know who those guys are, and I don't think this team is in that mindset. "I think that we have good players. For us to go make a trade to find a player that is better than the players we have that aren't getting the minutes they want is pretty tough. I think that some years that is the case, and maybe there are guys that may be moved or that there is a possibility, but I don't think this year's team and the tone of our camp has been part of it.

"There's not a lot of trade rumors that we're making deals, and there's not a lot of discussion even going on within our team. I haven't sensed any of that yet."

Ainge is right: The Celtics do have good players, and moving on from them for an upgrade would be difficult. Davis, however, represents one of the few real upgrades who could be had.

On Monday, Boston will get a chance to see that for itself one final time before potentially getting the chance to trade for Davis next summer.

Let the dreaming begin.

I thought it was determined here earlier , that the only way to trade for Davis this year was to trade irving for him or first?


claify: I mean he and Irving cannot co-exist ion the team, by rule

maybe i keep getting messed up no this, I don't know?

This season, we cannot trade for him unless Irving is traded out in the package.

Next summer, we can't sign him as a free agent because we have no cap room.

Next summer, if we do a sign and trade for him, we will be hard capped at the Apron.  I cannot predict how the Celtics' owners will react to this one, but I can see us going way over the Apron to keep the team intact, depending on any good results we see this June.

Per Larry Coon's NBA Salary Cap FAQ:

In 2017-18 the Apron is the point $6 million above the tax threshold. In subsequent seasons the Apron rises or falls by one-half the percentage that the salary cap rises or falls.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q20


gyso

Nice thread about a topic that won't die because it's so much fun to contemplate (lineups with Davis and whomever else we don't have to dish off to get him). I'd add only two words: get him. Hawk

Other sites have him ending up with LeBron. I don't know what I hate worse, this story, or losing our young stars to be. I know how I feel, but alot of you here are dying for this to take place. I read a story last week that had him in LA by December 15. Time will tell.

Games like last night should give pause to the very notion of making a trade for Anthony Davis.

Games like this is one reason why trading for AD is not on the top of my priority list.  He is a fantastic talent but he is still just one player.  

Do the Celtics want him bad enough to part with Marcus Smart and Jaylen Brown and a couple more rotation guys and a bushel of first round draft picks?  Williams and or Semi would also probably be in the mix as well to make the damn money work out.

If the Celtics win the title this year and there remains a good chance that they can, do you make that trade?

You win with stars but you also win with grit and grind.  

I think Kleen said before that you need players like Marcus Smart to win and he is absolutely correct.  

The Celtics have the rest of the season to prove why they do not need to make a trade for Anthony Davis.

dboss,

didn't gyso just say that we have to trade Irving for him, for it to work?

if so, then THAT is the question right?

so would you trade Irving and say Rob Williams
along with maybe TWO first round picks (Kings and our own?)
for
A. Davis

If  I understand the rules correctly now, this would pass muster AND it meets the Salary cap rules as well.

of course  one could get seriously into balancing the roster and try something like this:

Irving, Hayward and ONE first round pick

for
Davis and Holiday

either one is just a fantasy of course.

but one could make an argument that a roster of

A. Davis
A. Hordford
J. Tatum
J. Holiday
M. Smart

with a bench of

J. Brown
M. Morris
T. Rozier
A. Baynes
D. Theis

is a better balanced team than we currently have


Reality is...we are on a SIX GAME win streak, so why mess with anything!

kdp59 wrote:dboss,

didn't gyso just say that we have to trade Irving for him, for it to work?

if so, then THAT is the question right?

so would you trade Irving and say Rob Williams
along with maybe TWO first round picks (Kings and our own?)
for
A. Davis

If  I understand the rules correctly now, this would pass muster AND it meets the Salary cap rules as well.

of course  one could get seriously into balancing the roster and try something like this:

Irving, Hayward and ONE first round pick

for
Davis and Holiday

either one is just a fantasy of course.

but one could make an argument that a roster of

A. Davis
A. Hordford
J. Tatum
J. Holiday
M. Smart

with a bench of

J. Brown
M. Morris
T. Rozier
A. Baynes
D. Theis

is a better balanced team than we currently have


Reality is...we are on a SIX GAME win streak, so why mess with anything!

The idea of trading Irving so that you can get Davis does not make sense to me.  The numbers work but the premise is so unrealistic.   I want to try to put this one to bed.

Danny cannot trade Irving for Davis.  Irving has an option on July 1st and he is very unlikely to exercise his option to play for NOLA, a historically bad team with no chance of winning.  NOLA already has millions tied up with Holiday their PG.  That kills the Irving trade.  But let's say you get a 3rd team involved that would send something to NOLA for Irving.  Same situation really.  Irving would have to commit to resign with that 3rd unknown team when the deal is cooked.  Do you see where this is going?  

Secondly If you are looking to have 2 superstars on your team you do not put them on opposite trains passing in the night.  The idea is to bring them together.  Given that Al Horford continues his slide down the inevitable, past his prime status,  and given that Gordon Hayward may never reclaim his allstar ability, a Davis addition and a Kyrie loss may be suspect.

I like Terry Rosier.  Everybody likes Terry but he is no where close to being as good as Kyrie Irving.  Terry can be shut down.  Kyrie is unstoppable.

This brings us full circle.  The Celtics would have to gut out their team and part with a whole lot of draft picks.  

The question is do you do this for a player that has been labeled a transformative players?  A great player that has been playing for 6 years and has not taken his team very far?  A player who has a history of getting nicked up.  Is he really a transformative player?  Does he make his teammates better?  Do you do this because you are afraid that he might end up in LA playing with a guy that owns the basketball?  

I say no, no, no because the Celtics are not going to be able to move Kyrie and the Celtics should not gut the quality of depth on this team along with draft picks for Davis or anyone else.   I say no, no, no because the Celtics already have everything they need to be a great team for years to come.

The very title of this thread indicates that The Anthony Davis-Celtics speculation isn't going away.

This will be a topic for debate for the rest of the season, or until AD gets traded to another team.  Everyone has an opinion and there is no realistic way to make it stop.  That is just not going to happen.  Like I said, everyone has an opinion and that is what this place is for; to share one's opinion in a (more or less) friendly manner.

I suggest that we make this thread "The Official Anthony Davis-Celtics Speculation Thread", make it a sticky so it is always available and post everything to do with this topic in this thread.  That way, we will not be subject to repeating ourselves over and over again.

I guess that if I can get five members to post, "Go ahead", I will make it a sticky.  Otherwise we will let it go on, thread after thread, until it is over.

What say you all?

gyso

gyso

A sticky it should be.

I posted the thread but did not choose the title nor the content. And it will not go away just like the Butler threads. but I wish it would go away

Maybe that's the cure.

We could pin it with a sticky, let everyone get it out of their system for a week or two, and then set it free.

If there's that much demand to talk rumor talk, we can also do like Hoops Hype and others, and create a dedicated Rumor Topic, separate of the Hot Celtics and Basketball Topics. Some might like an ongoing Hot Rumor debate. Then, every time a new name pops up, a sticky isn't needed.

The idea of trading Irving so that you can get Davis does not make sense to me.  The numbers work but the premise is so unrealistic.   I want to try to put this one to bed.


well.... I guess I still don't get the rules.

the way I read what was posted before about any Anthony Davis trade was that we can only get him IF Irving is either traded for him or to another team before Davis comes here?

is that right or not?

dboss hits the nail on the head and it is what distinguishes all the great Celtic Championship teams from all the other Championship teams.

Celtics don't look for superstars. They look for above average players at a great price that are hungry for a championship and want to play fundamental TEAM ball. I wouldn't call Robert Parish or Kevin McHale superstars. Larry Bird, yes. Bill Russell, yes. Dennis Johnson, no. Ray Allen, Paul Pierce? Maybe. Super players, yes. But not superstars. Wilt Chamberlain...superstar. LeBron James...Superstar. Those guys have to and had to have the ball and score.

All these players gutted it out, though, and won championships doing just that. More than one way to skin a cat for the championship.

db

kdp59 wrote:The idea of trading Irving so that you can get Davis does not make sense to me.  The numbers work but the premise is so unrealistic.   I want to try to put this one to bed.


well.... I guess I still don't get the rules.

the way I read what was posted before about any Anthony Davis trade was that we can only get him IF Irving is either traded for him or to another team before Davis comes here?

is that right or not?

Yes, this season, if we want to acquire Davis, we must lose Irving.

If it is your opinion that the ends justify the means, then yes, please share your opinion. You may believe that losing one shorter star and getting the taller star in the deal moves the needle enough to push us over the top.

I see the logic in that argument.

gyso

kdp59 wrote:The idea of trading Irving so that you can get Davis does not make sense to me.  The numbers work but the premise is so unrealistic.   I want to try to put this one to bed.


well.... I guess I still don't get the rules.

the way I read what was posted before about any Anthony Davis trade was that we can only get him IF Irving is either traded for him or to another team before Davis comes here?

is that right or not?

kdp59 yes you cannot have 2 players that were extended under their rookie contracts for x amount, etc. etc I have no idea truly.

That was certainly not my argument against trading Irving for Davis or for anyone else.

I am such a Celtics homer that I love our players better than anyone elses.

My argument I think has several layers to it. Afterall I was making another one of my not so compelling arguments not to get Davis.

I made the 2 two star argument vs the one. (Why trade Irving for Davis if you need both of them)

And I made the 2 star argument vs the many (players) Why trade your depth for Davis (is he really the missing piece? is he really transformative?)

I do not think Kyrie can or should be in the mix and I do not think NOLA would be satisfied with Jaylen Brown and other players/assets instead of Jayson Tatum and other players/assets. I do not see a deal being made unless Danny is willing to part with Jason Tatum+

gyso wrote:

kdp59 wrote:The idea of trading Irving so that you can get Davis does not make sense to me.  The numbers work but the premise is so unrealistic.   I want to try to put this one to bed.


well.... I guess I still don't get the rules.

the way I read what was posted before about any Anthony Davis trade was that we can only get him IF Irving is either traded for him or to another team before Davis comes here?

is that right or not?

Yes, this season, if we want to acquire Davis, we must lose Irving.  

If it is your opinion that the ends justify the means, then yes, please share your opinion.  You may believe that losing one shorter star and getting the taller star in the deal moves the needle enough to push us over the top.

I see the logic in that argument.

gyso

I suppose the tall guy gets the nod over the short guy but I do not know if it really makes you better.

if it did it really does not matter because Boston is not going to be able to move Kyrie Irving to get Davis. It is not going to happen. If you were Kyrie would you agree to go play for NOLA? Hell no. You would not. That is why this subject is really academic. Kyrie being part of a trade deal to get Anthony Davis seems like a near impossible possibility.

Kyrie has won a place in the hearts of all Celtic fans, AND, the ownership. He is going no where. I believe this subject is dead, even though some would trade half the team for Davis. If New Orleans management would only be halfway as smart as Ainge, they would realize they have a gem here and build around him. Too bad they did not feel the need to sign Cousens, they were a good combo. The thought of waiting for him to recover was just too much for them. Even keeping Rondo would have been a smart move. He played terrific there and Davis loved playing with him. They have Holiday, who is a special player.

The problem is, what they don't have is smarts. No knowledge of how to build a winner. So this is why Davis will want to leave. But, I do not see him coming here because they would have to blow up half of what they have spent so much energy building

RosalieTCeltics wrote:Kyrie has won a place in the hearts of all Celtic fans, AND, the ownership. He is going no where.  I believe this subject is dead, even though some would trade half the team for Davis.  If New Orleans management would only be halfway as smart as Ainge, they would realize they have a gem here and build around him. Too bad they did not feel the need to sign Cousens, they were a good combo. The thought of waiting for him to recover was just too much for them.  Even keeping Rondo would have been a smart move. He played terrific there and Davis loved playing with him. They have Holiday, who is a special player.

The problem is, what they don't have is smarts. No knowledge of how to build a winner. So this is why Davis will want to leave. But, I do not see him coming here because they would have to blow up half of what they have spent so much energy building

Rosalie

A very compelling argument. They have had 7 years to build a team around Davis. He says all the right things but they look to be heading south again this year. It is not going to get much better. They have around $20 million in cap space next summer but they probably cannot find a highend guy to come play with Davis. The rumblings will begin once the free agency period begins and he sees that no real help is on the way. The bidding war will begin and Danny has more assets to do a deal than anyone. That is the reason why this speculative situation will not go away. All AD has to do is ask out and include Boston on his destination list.

OK......I was just trying to make sure I understood the rule in any Davis trade.

I had been uninformed about that before and thought I had been corrected (and properly). But then I thought maybe I still didn't get it?

I wasn't really saying Ainge SHOULD make either of those deals I proposed. Just that either one COULD be done and meet all NBA rules.

But yes. I would trade Irving and Rob Williams and the kings pick and our own for Anthony Davis, the more I think about it.

Danny would have to find a vet outside shooter for vet minimum after the cuts later in the year, IMO.

but a roster of

A. Davis
A. Horford
J., Tatum
J. Brown
M. Smart

as starters

with

Hayward
Morris
Rozier
Baynes

the top players off the bench

would be a better top 9 IMO that what we have now.

Rozier would be kept as a RFA next year, but Morris would likely move on I would think.

We'd still have two first rounders (Memphis and Clippers)

to add to the deep bench of

Theis - if re signed
Semi
Yabusele
Wannamaker


I also don't think it will happen